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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Heroes III: what are the viable MAGIC heroes?
Thread: Heroes III: what are the viable MAGIC heroes? This thread is 6 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT»
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted August 20, 2016 12:12 AM

Even when I play just as much with magic heroes, as might heroes, I always focus on building creatures first. Mage Guilds tend to be the last buildings I buy, especially when playing at impossible difficulty. Without creatures you can't do anything, at least not until you have high Power, Knowledge and some good spells.

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The_Polyglot
The_Polyglot


Promising
Supreme Hero
Nuttier than squirrel poo
posted August 20, 2016 03:15 AM

Mmkay, he's a troll. Sorry for my outburst everyone, should have known better. That said, I'd rather explode at a troll than not try to help genuine newbs see sense.
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Maag
Maag


Adventuring Hero
posted August 21, 2016 12:13 AM
Edited by Maag at 00:17, 21 Aug 2016.

Why argue about these spell levels?

Isn't it depending on map size, template, difficulty level played, town and whether the map is opened?

Ofc if you play 160% or 200% with Rampart/Castle/Dungeon/Inferno etc on M open map or even L open map, then there is no point, no resource, no time, whatsoever to buy out those spell levels, even level 2 u won't buy. It is just not real, even if u are on Jebus, which is rich by resources.

But if u play Tower on XL map with 130% and when that map is not opened (which means u can't easily access from your main town to opponents main town, maybe have some heavier guards between or just no roads in some point or have desert between etc.), template is Jebus Cross, why not buy up to level 5, AFTER u have made sure u can get Titans, or u already have upgraded to Titans.
One requirement for this is, that you have sh*tloads of gems.

But coming back on this idea. Since tower has Library it has also 3 level 4 spells against other towns 2 spells. That being said, it has higher chance to get Town portal. If it is allowed in your game, u get it before opponent, u have astronomic advantage, even if the game is already in late phase, like end of month 2.

But NOTE, that this idea works ONLY, IF pandoras are either not presented on map or if they are, they would not give high spells. And there are no higher spell scrolls than level 3.
Noone would bother to buy high spell levels if u have high change to gather them from pandoras or spell scrolls on map, even if guarded by decent units.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 21, 2016 12:27 AM

Town portal is no advantage on anything smaller than XL. Even on large maps, a 8 heroes chain (+ additional if towns on the way) can cover most part of map. Town portal is over rated, is only good in single games because we dislike micro management in such games.

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Maag
Maag


Adventuring Hero
posted August 21, 2016 10:36 AM
Edited by Maag at 10:50, 21 Aug 2016.

Salamandre said:
Town portal is no advantage on anything smaller than XL. Even on large maps, a 8 heroes chain (+ additional if towns on the way) can cover most part of map. Town portal is over rated, is only good in single games because we dislike micro management in such games.


Sorry, my bad, i forgot to mention that Town Portal is mostly useful in "native heroes" type of game, not in regular and yes, the larger the map, the better the effect.

When u are allowed to hire native heroes only, start with 2 heroes and every next week 1 more, you will have 8 heroes by 2.nd month week 3.

That means chaining is becoming more and more important every new week and "town portal" will be less important, BUT what if map is still closed on some important places, or have somewhere no roads or have to make some longer circles to get somewhere? Everyone of your heroes will not definitely have expert pathfinding and logistics.
That brings in the "slow creature factor". U will more likely leave Iron Golems behind with Tower, which otherwise could be real good defense units for your mages or MGs. The same for Rampart's Dendroid Soldiers or Battle Dwarves.
In XL maps, esp. while not opened, u DO NOT need slow powerful units to guard towns aswell, because u will see enemy closing in LONG before they become a threat.
So it is really comfortable to bring in slow units too and later "jump around" with TP. It is not rare to have both exp Air and Earth. If u find DD aswell or even fly (good chance to happen esp. if u play Tower on XL), together with TP u can besically get everywhere on the map instantly, if have enough knowledge skill (plus for ex. Dungeon town captured somewhere for Vortex) and captured towns in as many corners on map as can.

Just some thoughts...

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heroes_player
heroes_player


Known Hero
posted August 21, 2016 09:06 PM

Forget Town Portal, focus on killer spells like Fly and Berserk instead

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted August 21, 2016 09:50 PM

I guess you never played an XL +underground island map, Town Portal rules everything, Town Portal is instant win in those cases.
On small maps I suppose it would be less useful though...

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 21, 2016 11:08 PM

okay, on 5 millions maps out, there are maybe 10 with underground only islands. True, didn't play them and I understand town portal wins there, if at each step you have to go on  and off boat.

But there is a reason almost nobody designs islands maps, and I just spoiled it: movement boredom.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted August 21, 2016 11:12 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 23:16, 21 Aug 2016.

Movement boredom? Is'nt that why you have Water Walk, Fly and maybe even Dimension Door or Town Portal? Or Tome of Air Magic, Tome of Earth Magic, Tome of Water Magic, Spellbinder's Hat, Boots of Levitation and Angels Wings? Or how about Admiral's Hat?

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 21, 2016 11:30 PM

Look, all the spells and relics you talk there are usually found late game. The problem with water in Heroes games is that is a fallen land, very little things to do on (now it slightly changed with Hota)

So in my opinion, as mapmaker, using water other than just for varying design is just wasting space. Then if you add to it the fact that movement is stopped when you embark, no matter you were at full value before, it creates a frustration, at least for people who seek action. My stance is: every turn where you didn't fight, conquer something, killed someone or uncovered some artifact or quest is a wasted turn.

Nowadays we see too many maps of this kind. Just walking on.

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Maag
Maag


Adventuring Hero
posted August 21, 2016 11:45 PM

heroes_player said:
Forget Town Portal, focus on killer spells like Fly and Berserk instead


Hold on a minute. I typed so long post with arguments and u just say "Forget Town Portal". Did you read even anything i typed back there?

Long story, but explains, why Town Portal is not bad spell to use in L maps or esp. XL maps.


What about Berserk? We were talking about TP, fly, DD etc. Movement on map. Berserk is combat spell... a fine combat spell it is

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted August 21, 2016 11:59 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 00:03, 22 Aug 2016.

@Salamandre I don't see water as a graphic variation, water is another way to travel and provides new possibilities, if everything is land there would be no reason to choose other heroes than Dessa, Gunnar and Kyrre... It is about making the most of your movement before embarking/disembarking a boat...
And yes HotA made water content much more interesting.
Those spells might be late game, but you can always get relics from Dragon Utopias, Warrior Tombs, Shipwreck Survivors or relics placed on the map or take everything with Shackles of War.

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draco
draco


Promising
Famous Hero
posted August 22, 2016 04:35 PM
Edited by draco at 16:37, 22 Aug 2016.

I'm curious how this conversation would change if one of the following occurred:

Might heroes were forbidden from learning any elemental skills or Wisdom

--OR--

Might heroes were only allowed to learn up to Advanced elements (no expert).

In fact I'm tempted to make the first change on my game to see what happens.

No Mass Haste or Mass Slow, weaker fly and DD how much of a different game would it be and would people still choose Might heroes? I would disable Angel Wings as well

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Maag
Maag


Adventuring Hero
posted August 22, 2016 05:33 PM

draco said:
I'm curious how this conversation would change if one of the following occurred:

Might heroes were forbidden from learning any elemental skills or Wisdom

--OR--

Might heroes were only allowed to learn up to Advanced elements (no expert).

In fact I'm tempted to make the first change on my game to see what happens.

No Mass Haste or Mass Slow, weaker fly and DD how much of a different game would it be and would people still choose Might heroes? I would disable Angel Wings as well


Interesting idea. I always considered might heroes overpowered. What do magic heroes have better than might? More chance to learn water and fire + high chance to get Intelligence etc spells and anything more? More spell power and knowl. But less attach and defense.
Seems to me at least that these magic hero "advantages" are near meaningless compared to might. If might have enough spell power, boosted up by some artifact too, expert air and earth, then what else do u need, even wisdom is easy to get

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zombiewhacker
zombiewhacker


Adventuring Hero
posted August 22, 2016 11:35 PM

Might has the edge for a number of reasons.  Here's one more:

There is a unique artifact in HOMM3 that prevents all spell casting in combat.  To my knowledge, there are no artifacts in HOMM3 that prevent melee or ranged attacks in combat.  

If one did exist, either as a single relic or something that could be assembled into one, that would certainly balance the books between might and magic real quick.  

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted August 22, 2016 11:44 PM

No, there is no artifact, but like there's a hero who can gain 100% resistance, armor specialists can reach a practically unreachable level where they get 100% damage reduction (all stacks delivers 1 point of damage).

Also there's hit&run where it's all about speed and spells.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 23, 2016 12:10 AM

zombiewhacker said:
To my knowledge, there are no artifacts in HOMM3 that prevent melee or ranged attacks in combat.  


No but there are spells as forgetfulness, force field and quick sand and when they are cast and you have no counter (mass dispel for last two), you can shove with your offense or archery specialties. How do we win 95% of single maps with pure magic heroes?

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zombiewhacker
zombiewhacker


Adventuring Hero
posted August 26, 2016 08:08 PM

Everything you said is true.  My point simply was that Might heroes are OP as it is, and the Orb of Inhibition tilts the scales even further in their favor.  

(And, needless to say, you can't cast Forgetfulness, etc. during combat if the opponent hero already wields the Orb.)


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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted August 26, 2016 10:16 PM

Well the orb could always be disabled to help out magic heroes, maybe also Recanter's Cloak.
But what makes might heroes strong imo is that they can easily assemble huge armies with Town Portal. Without Town Portal armies will be smaller and magic more important.
I prefer playing without Town Portal.

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The_Polyglot
The_Polyglot


Promising
Supreme Hero
Nuttier than squirrel poo
posted August 27, 2016 01:25 AM

Relative army strength does not enter into it. The longer the game goes on, the exponentially weaker magic heroes become, as spells do not scale with weekly growth of army strength. Given that might heroes get more value out of this growth than magic heroes, magic heroes will have to act before their earlygame advantage disappears. If they do not, they will eventually die, as time actively works against them.
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