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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Heroes III: what are the viable MAGIC heroes?
Thread: Heroes III: what are the viable MAGIC heroes? This thread is 6 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT»
heroes_player
heroes_player


Known Hero
posted August 11, 2016 09:25 PM
Edited by heroes_player at 21:31, 11 Aug 2016.

In general I consider Warlocks as best since they will get lots of spell power and knowledge when they are leveled up. Especially the spell power boost makes them very viable so that's why their magic is so strong. I also love the intelligence specialists since more mana is more power They definitely are the strongest magic heroes no doubt: Elleshar, Andra and Ayden but I have used two latter only few times for unknown reason so Elleshar is the best forever.


In addition, I would consider that some magic heroes stronger than some might heroes. Everyone here says might beats magic in online games but it is just because online games restrict the use of magic drastically which make no fair for magic users. No armageddon, no DD or fly, no berserk etc, which kinda destroy the point of magic hero and which is why nobody want to use magic hero in online. If there would be no restrictions of spell usage I bet that Elleshar would DESTROY Crag Hack

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted August 11, 2016 11:57 PM

heroes_player said:
Everyone here says might beats magic in online games but it is just because online games restrict the use of magic drastically which make no fair for magic users.


I don't think that's the full issue. The fact is that a number of spells - including very powerful ones like Mass Haste or Mass Slow - don't really depend on Spell Power. Yes, the number of turns they last depends on it, but once you have a few points of Spell Power, that's not really an issue. Might Heroes acquire that fast enough. Having Mass Slow last 30 turns due to high Spell Power doesn't do much more than having Mass Slow for 5 turns, if the battle ends within about 5 turns.

In contrast, Might Heroes acquire much more Attack and Defense, boosting all creatures in their army, so they field far stronger armies than Magic Heroes ever can. Lacking mass destruction spells in the early- and midgame, the stronger army has more chance to win battles. Towards endgame with high level Heroes, spell damage just can't raise high enough to really touch the hitpoint totals of most stacks and they start to fall behind on the power curve.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted August 12, 2016 08:04 AM

On the other hand magic heroes are better at resurrect/animate dead/sacrifice, summon elementals, spell damage and using adventure spells, because of more mana. But you are right in a lot of cases mass haste or slow is enough, these spells are way too strong for level 1, same with bless and curse.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 12, 2016 01:05 PM

Following similar logic of skill distribution through level up, they resurrect more too because they need to, heavier casualties.

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zombiewhacker
zombiewhacker


Adventuring Hero
posted August 12, 2016 09:14 PM

How about a magic hero with expert diplomacy on XL maps?  Would that balance the scales (versus might opponents), or does might still have the edge?

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted August 12, 2016 09:54 PM

In my opinion, the only advantage a magic hero can have is if he can:
1) Take advantage of his damage is independent of his creatures.
2) Do so multiple times.

Which power and knowledge makes possible, but after he attacks with his puny but fast army, fire off his spell, he may not surrender and repeat the procedure, which weakens him a lot in my opinion.

I think Diplomacy would be more to the advantage of the might hero which is better with the army than the Magic hero, I imagine a well made map could potentially balance diplomacy against hit&run while taking into account the expected development time of each faction.. here I'm imagining a typical closed map with zones and not an open map which would probably be played out quite differently (and perhaps more realistically).

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted August 12, 2016 10:15 PM

One disadvantage about using Diplomacy as a trade off is that an army can only ever consist of 7 stacks. When an 8th stack wants to join, you're going to have to choose which one to drop. To add insult to injury, there's also a Morale issue with grouping creatures from different factions on a Hero (especially if there are Undead in the mix). It makes Morale artifacts and the Leadership skill almost mandatory.

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HeymlicH
HeymlicH


Known Hero
posted August 13, 2016 08:19 PM
Edited by HeymlicH at 20:35, 13 Aug 2016.

There are two Magic Heros, I would consider as main hero.

1. Dessa: The logistics special rocks. Yes, Gunnar is better. But if it has to be a magic hero, Dessa is my first choice.

2. Cyra: Starts with diplo skill. The haste special is quite good. Honestly, Cyra is the only decent Tower hero, I would take her over any Alchemist (including Neela).

A number of magic heros can be quite useful in the early/mid game:

3. Grindan: Starts with earth Magic and the slow spell. +350 Gold Special helps early on. I think in the early game Grindan is far better than some archery hero. If you rely on ranged units early, expert slow > everything else.

4. Alamar: Free resurrection  spell + the ability to teach it to everyone else.


I'm not a big fan of the sorcery specialists. Even with Armageddon Dessa is much better.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Ebonheart said:
Crag Hack > Orrin for Tower any day.


Both of them suck for Tower. With Tower you want an armorer specialist (Mephala or Tazar, NOT Neela) or just Kyrre.

Hack is especially bad for Tower, for the following reasons:
1. His special doesn't work well for Tower.
2. Tower is the slowest of all factions. You don't get to move first. Air Magic is useless, if you don't have initiative. Water magic is much better for Tower. Hack can't learn water magic.


Orrin may have a good special, but he suffers from extremely poor secondary skill choices, just like any other Knight. I wouldn't consider him as a main hero.




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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted August 13, 2016 10:00 PM

Yeah Knights seem to have great trouble with learning Earth Magic, sometimes I get offered Air and Water several times, but never earth, which you pretty much need for Slow, Resurection, Town Portal (if allowed) Meteor Shower, Implosion etc. Knights seems to be the class which has the most trouble learning earth magic...

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted August 14, 2016 12:53 AM
Edited by Maurice at 01:11, 14 Aug 2016.

That seems to be supported by the actual chances. As it is, Clerics have only 3 weight out of 112 total for Earth Magic, which is lowest among them together with Battle Mages. All other Magic Heroes have a higher chance to get it. When looking at Might Heroes, the Knight with a weight of 2 is lonely at the bottom, where all other Might Heroes have a higher chance to get Earth Magic somewhere down the line.

Edit: I've just opened the HCTRAITS.TXT file in my Heroes3 Complete edition and the values within are different from those listed on the website. For instance, Necromancers have a chance of 8 out of 112 to be offered Earth Magic according to the file, while the website shows only 5 out of 112.

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The_Polyglot
The_Polyglot


Promising
Supreme Hero
Nuttier than squirrel poo
posted August 14, 2016 01:29 AM

heroes_player said:

In addition, I would consider that some magic heroes stronger than some might heroes. Everyone here says might beats magic in online games but it is just because online games restrict the use of magic drastically which make no fair for magic users. No armageddon, no DD or fly, no berserk etc, which kinda destroy the point of magic hero and which is why nobody want to use magic hero in online. If there would be no restrictions of spell usage I bet that Elleshar would DESTROY Crag Hack


Taking you seriously for a moment... Online games tend to restrict magic which defeats the purpose of the map if acquired. Maps have zones, and they have guards and borders to ensure players have to go through them. The value of each zone is designed with this in mind. Bypassing the guards makes for a profoundly unfair game, and no competitive player wants that. They look for a challenge, not egostroking.

If you play maps other than those specifically designed for multiplayer, this changes: There, use of high-level magic is simply not profitable or consistent enough to justify a strategy around it. If RNJesus grants you a scroll, a tome, or a box, which is the only realistic chance of getting restricted spells early enough to matter, that again means that random chance determined the result of your match, and if you wanted that, you could have just as easily flipped a coin.Congratulations on your and your friend's hours of wasted time.

You'll find that ToH rules, however unfair and restricting they may seem at first glance are there to ensure all parties start equal, and none can gain an unfair advantage over the others over the course of the match. Since Heroes doesn't cater exclusively to multiplayer, and especially not to competitive multiplayer, it incorporates elements that need to be restricted in order to ensure fair conditions without needlessly curbing the fun to be had. Because if you don't want a fair game, why would you play multiplayer in the first place?
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heroes_player
heroes_player


Known Hero
posted August 14, 2016 03:18 PM

The_Polyglot said:
heroes_player said:

In addition, I would consider that some magic heroes stronger than some might heroes. Everyone here says might beats magic in online games but it is just because online games restrict the use of magic drastically which make no fair for magic users. No armageddon, no DD or fly, no berserk etc, which kinda destroy the point of magic hero and which is why nobody want to use magic hero in online. If there would be no restrictions of spell usage I bet that Elleshar would DESTROY Crag Hack


Taking you seriously for a moment... Online games tend to restrict magic which defeats the purpose of the map if acquired. Maps have zones, and they have guards and borders to ensure players have to go through them. The value of each zone is designed with this in mind. Bypassing the guards makes for a profoundly unfair game, and no competitive player wants that. They look for a challenge, not egostroking.

If you play maps other than those specifically designed for multiplayer, this changes: There, use of high-level magic is simply not profitable or consistent enough to justify a strategy around it. If RNJesus grants you a scroll, a tome, or a box, which is the only realistic chance of getting restricted spells early enough to matter, that again means that random chance determined the result of your match, and if you wanted that, you could have just as easily flipped a coin.Congratulations on your and your friend's hours of wasted time.

You'll find that ToH rules, however unfair and restricting they may seem at first glance are there to ensure all parties start equal, and none can gain an unfair advantage over the others over the course of the match. Since Heroes doesn't cater exclusively to multiplayer, and especially not to competitive multiplayer, it incorporates elements that need to be restricted in order to ensure fair conditions without needlessly curbing the fun to be had. Because if you don't want a fair game, why would you play multiplayer in the first place?


Yeah I know why people want these rules but I wanted to let everyone know that might is not always the best choice if there would not be rules. Rather than hoping for scrolls etc, mage guilds are other way to get OP spells which is why magic heroes are better at this for their early wisdom skill which most players don't choose for their might heroes. In online games nobody upgrades their mage guilds because strong spells are not allowed. Of course might heroes gets easily mass haste, slow, shield etc. since they are the only useful for lvl 1-2 spells but they are nothing in comparison with 'forbidden' spells. Same thing for attack and defense skill, they don't matter at all even with full army if you face against Malekith with his black dragons (the battle would be over in 2 rounds no matter what army, attack and defense you had).

In short, magic heroes are weak in online games because of the rules but without the rules, might and magic are kind of equal.

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The_Polyglot
The_Polyglot


Promising
Supreme Hero
Nuttier than squirrel poo
posted August 14, 2016 05:09 PM
Edited by The_Polyglot at 17:24, 14 Aug 2016.

Either you are illiterate or a troll. I'm optimistic, so here is it in sumple terms, AGAIN:

Investing in a mage guild for the CHANCE of high-level magic IS NOT WORTH IT.  The strongest spells are LEVEL ONE and they DO NOT REQUIRE HIGH MAGIC STATS, NEITHER KNOWLEDGE OR POWER. Therefore, you are better off using MIGHT HEROES because THE RESOURCES AND TIME NEEDED TO BUILD MAGE GUILD 3 AND ABOVE ARE BETTER SPENT ANYWHERE ELSE.


DO.YOU. FIIIIIIINALLY GET IT?!
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 14, 2016 05:16 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 17:30, 14 Aug 2016.

Is not about rules, but type of map you play.

Closed random maps (99% of online play today) where your main can level to a decent level 15-20 before any fight with opponent --> might.

Open medium maps (99% of ToH games in first 4 seasons) where you meet opponent scouts as soon as day 3-4 and must fight for each chest of gold, then where your main  will hardly level beyond 10th level --> magic heroes, the cost of magic book is prohibitive first day then you don't survive without.

So, regarding thread question, if you HAVE to play a magic hero, selecting the proper one still depends on map type, there are hybrid magic heroes then pure magic heroes.
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The_Polyglot
The_Polyglot


Promising
Supreme Hero
Nuttier than squirrel poo
posted August 14, 2016 05:36 PM

Salamandre]Is not about rules, but type of map you play

Open medium maps (99% of ToH games in first 4 seasons) where you meet opponent scouts as soon as day 3-4 and must fight for each chest of gold, then where your main  will hardly level beyond 10th level --> magic heroes, the cost of magic book is prohibitive.../quote said:


Sure Sal? If spellbook cost is the deciding factor, wouldn't it be better to just hire Death Knights? I know that ingame, you can only realistically get one, and that only if you're lucky, but this is just hypothetical.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 14, 2016 05:42 PM

What I mean is that on skirmish type maps, your scouts will need magic to survive, so you don't leave your starting town without a book. Now given that usually people hire 8 heroes on first day and try to cover most of map with, having or not a book can make a serious difference in budget.

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The_Polyglot
The_Polyglot


Promising
Supreme Hero
Nuttier than squirrel poo
posted August 14, 2016 07:02 PM

Mmkay. Note that even in this case, it's not that Magic heroes are better, they just come with an otherwise unremarkable item that becomes critical due to extreme time and economic constraints and access to the opponent immediately available, not because of their primary skill distribution or their different secondary skill chances, the both of which are strictly inferior compared to those of Might heroes.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 14, 2016 07:23 PM

Beside the money for book, having 20-30 mana instead of 10 is also capital on open maps. A hero who can kill 50-90 HP before you reach his battlefield side is a god during first week.

Look, the original H3 template is simple, open and based on early interaction, like all their maps shipped with CD too. It asks controlling choke points and harassing your opponent economy by hitting where it hurts, scouts pool thus deny him map exploration. Who controls the space wins the game.

This explains why they didn't bother about magic and might heroes, and they probably didn't expect this game to last so long, become so heavily modded and edited, until it becomes almost another game. They were supposed to improve it with H4 and, by doing so, continue the simple but effective pattern of having same game but in better.  

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zombiewhacker
zombiewhacker


Adventuring Hero
posted August 15, 2016 10:13 PM
Edited by zombiewhacker at 22:13, 15 Aug 2016.

Maurice said:
One disadvantage about using Diplomacy as a trade off is that an army can only ever consist of 7 stacks. When an 8th stack wants to join, you're going to have to choose which one to drop.

That's why Diplomacy is only truly effective when it's paired with the Visions spell.  

By knowing ahead of time whether an 8th stack wants to join up, I can always transfer my weakest stack to a secondary hero first... and then recruit the 8th stack, whose status is usually unaffected.

This way I can have my cake and eat it, too.

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Heroes_player
Heroes_player


Known Hero
posted August 19, 2016 10:28 PM

The_Polyglot said:
Either you are illiterate or a troll. I'm optimistic, so here is it in sumple terms, AGAIN:

Investing in a mage guild for the CHANCE of high-level magic IS NOT WORTH IT.  The strongest spells are LEVEL ONE and they DO NOT REQUIRE HIGH MAGIC STATS, NEITHER KNOWLEDGE OR POWER. Therefore, you are better off using MIGHT HEROES because THE RESOURCES AND TIME NEEDED TO BUILD MAGE GUILD 3 AND ABOVE ARE BETTER SPENT ANYWHERE ELSE.


DO.YOU. FIIIIIIINALLY GET IT?!


No I don't because I disagree with you. Chance or not, it is still possible especially when you got several towns. Resources should not be problem when you focus only on mage guilds.

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