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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Heroes III: what are the viable MAGIC heroes?
Thread: Heroes III: what are the viable MAGIC heroes? This thread is 6 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV
Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted August 27, 2016 01:51 AM
Edited by Maurice at 01:52, 27 Aug 2016.

phoenix4ever said:
But what makes might heroes strong imo is that they can easily assemble huge armies with Town Portal. Without Town Portal armies will be smaller and magic more important.


You're just trying to remedy the result of the real problem, though, rather than the problem itself.

At its core, the flaw stems from the fact that Heroes give the creatures in their armies a passive boost to their Attack and Defense values, equal to that of the Hero in question. It's the biggest ball and chain that tilts the tables in favor of Might Heroes across the board, since they get more Attack and Defense than Magic Heroes.

Personally, I consider the passive boost to be the biggest design flaw in Heroes 3; removing it and finding a better way for Might Heroes to boost their armies was probably too complex and/or too hard to implement, though.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 27, 2016 05:55 AM

The passive boost is all natural, what else could be given by a might hero?

On the other side, is the magic heroes which lack advantages, as the effect of additional spell power and knowledge doesn't substitute to might passive boost. Magic hero should profit from magic schools synergies, multiple cast and have access to mass version of some spells as blind (when 4 magic schools expertise), fire shield and frenzy. Which could indeed change the battle issue and also force the might hero level up to take in consideration other priority skills and artifacts, as resistance.

Some of those variations are already present in WoG mods and close the gap between magic and might.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted August 27, 2016 09:08 AM
Edited by Maurice at 09:08, 27 Aug 2016.

Salamandre said:
The passive boost is all natural, what else could be given by a might hero?


I've once made a detailed post about it when Heroes 7 was being developed. Basically, you put the Might Hero into the role of a battlefield commander, actively directing his troops, while removing the passive bonus to attack and defense. To do so, the Might Hero is able to learn all sorts of battlefield tactics (and for instance, War Cries are one subset out of the various tactics available), with which he makes his troops more effective. By correctly chaining battlefield tactics, you can gain synergy effects to enhance their results.

Consider generals of old, like Caesar and Napoleon. They were actively directing their troops in battle, ordering their troops to charge forward, or stand their ground, to provoke the enemy into attacking, to create a pincer movement, a flanking strike or have their archers shoot a barrage of arrows. Napoleon was also known for introducing the tactic of the grand battery, where most of the artillery focussed on a specific section in the enemy lines to blow it apart, before breaking the enemy army with a melee charge from infantry units.

The synergy comes from chaining the battlefield tactics properly: a unit that has been pinned down for instance won't be able to easily evade a barrage of arrows and take more damage. A unit that has taken a barrage of arrows may have scattered their formation somewhat, reducing their defense efficiency as a result, opening them for more damage. Etc...

But it does mean that Might Heroes need to be controlled actively by choosing battlefield tactics and targeting units (for the most part their own, but some may be aimed at disrupting the enemy), to play through this battlefield commander concept, rather than just having them stand by the sidelines passively boosting their army and casting a mass spell or two. When I presented this idea during the Heroes 7 development, a number of people were against turning the Might Hero's role from passive to active, so I know not everyone agrees.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted August 27, 2016 01:06 PM

Maurice said:
Personally, I consider the passive boost to be the biggest design flaw in Heroes 3; removing it and finding a better way for Might Heroes to boost their armies was probably too complex and/or too hard to implement, though.


They went for a different direction in HoMM 4 where there are no prim. skills, only secondary, with tactics being the only skill that improves your army and my personal opinion is that is something I dislike about HoMM 4 when comparing it to HoMM 3.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted August 27, 2016 10:15 PM

Yeah heroes seems kinda passive in HOMM3, only boosting stats and casting spells, still I prefer the HOMM3 model to the HOMM4 model were heroes were almost invincible and you did'nt even really need any army.
A more active role for heroes could have been interesting, but perhaps too complex.

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Pollo2002
Pollo2002


Known Hero
posted September 07, 2016 06:59 PM

Might heroes are generally better, i agree with that, however in some maps Magic heroes are better, is just that for some reason over the years, the community only plays extremly rich maps, extremly closed, where even on expert you build finish castle week 1.
And find exnough experience to get level 15.
Yes if that is the case magic heroes generally suck.
People seem to forget that in the early days other maps were played where you know, there were actual interaction in the game, and you can fight level 6-7, and maps werenīt full of resources and artifacts.

That is the reason I stopped playing heroes 3 at one time years ago, it was a time where people were playing all EXTREMLY RICH AND CLOSE maps, in some maps where you can just get level 7 units on week one. I donīt know why the community degenerated into that.

And yes in those maps, Magic heroes mostly suck, with a few conflux mages being the exception.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 07, 2016 07:10 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 19:16, 07 Sep 2016.

Exactly, CD vanilla medium maps hardly allow a main over 10th level, all game speaking, then maps designed for toh had same pattern, and only added more balance between opposite sides. In that pattern, a magic hero has all his chances, and maybe even better than a might.

With the so called modified templates, which were a natural sequel to closed maps (is precisely a moderator from HC, Pandora, who designed the FIRST ever closed map*, which had a tremendous success among newcomers because for once they could survive more than a week), insane levels can be achieved and, most important, magic schools expertise can be complete by any might. While with a 10 level maximum, is MUCH harder to get a knight or a barbarian with expert earth or air, and both is practically impossible.

*Hourglass, HERE
____________
Era II mods and utilities

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b0rsuk
b0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted September 07, 2016 10:27 PM

forgottenpw said:
Imo in Campaigns, espiacially timed ones or maps with a lot of different points to defend, magic heroes, and espiacally intelligence spec heroes rule

but to me, only one campaign is that retarded (the one where you have to conquer stedwick?? in 3 month)



1. High Knowledge heroes are nice against AI because it will keep sending medium or weak armies against you. A human player will do his best to hit you very hard in a single battle. So you won't benefit from that extra Knowledge unless you fought many neutrals, end even then HOMM3 is known for placing Magic Wells liberally around the map. Not sure about templates.

Also, campaigns artificially limit levels of your heroes, and the Might advantage is more pronounced at higher levels.

2. Have you actually tried a Might hero instead ? In campaigns ?

----------

Crag Hack leading Tower - remember human players won't engage with shooting contests with Titans, they will try to tie them up to negate their shooting advantage. Titans have no melee penalty, but at least they can no longer freely choose targets and must suffer retaliations.

Plus, Naga Queens are really not that bad in melee. With "No enemy retaliation" they don't need defense that much.

Quote:
Battle Mage are hybrid heroes, not spellpower/knowledge oriented.

They're what passes for a spellcaster in Stronghold, so give him a break.

===============

My take: on small maps, nuking heroes like Solmyr are actually nice. No messing with the Guild, no luck involved. I also have faith in Malekith and Jeddite/Thant. ATTACK EARLY.

On big maps, spellcasters can win with Dimension Door unless it's banned.

Either way it will be an uphill battle.

-------

"X times played" and win stats are misleading, because a single fan of Solmyr or Malekith playing that one hero every single time, can skew statistics. Choosing a nuker hero on small maps and NOT choosing him on others would have better stats.

Can you show me statistics for small maps only ??
Quote:
(Salamandre) The passive boost is all natural, what else could be given by a might hero?


Imagine Attack/Defense working similar to Spell Power! Giving only an additive (static!) boost, not multiplicative percentage. Example:

StackOne has 7 attack and attacks StackTwo with 5 defense. Currently, you get +10% extra damage.
(Modified): StackOne deals +10 points of damage for each point of surplus attack, for a total of +20 damage, no matter stack size!

This would mean that, like magic heroes, Might heroes would become progressively less significant as the game goes.

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b0rsuk
b0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted September 17, 2016 07:19 AM

Hmm, maybe shrines in Heroes III should be level2, level3, level4 ? To boost magic heroes and Wisdom especially ? There are some silly heroes which start with Advanced Wisdom, because you obviously need to max Wisdom ASAP!

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Pollo2002
Pollo2002


Known Hero
posted September 17, 2016 07:38 PM

if you want to improve magic heroes quickly, just remove from SPtraits all spells that are useless, which is the major drawback of magic, why invest in a magic guild when 90% of hte time is crap (or you canīt use it because its banned)


____________

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zaio-baio
zaio-baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 19, 2016 11:26 PM
Edited by zaio-baio at 23:37, 19 Sep 2016.

I think a good way to make magic heroes stronger is to allow them to cast buffed versions of the mass spells. For instance expert haste gives +4 speed to all units when cast by might hero and +6 speed to all units when cast by magic hero. Similar thing with slow - like -30% speed when cast by might hero and -50% speed when cast by magic hero. Magic heroes are supposed to have a better understanding of the spells, so it makes sense that they cast stronger versions.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 19, 2016 11:38 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 23:39, 19 Sep 2016.

The idea is not bad, but having same spell giving various effects implying different initiatives for same creature, would make the battle strategy very tedious and confusing, for both players.

Imagine the left guy (magic hero) trying to calculate his creatures speed compared with the right guy (might) casting mass haste too, then suddenly everyone casts mass slow and now the bonus the left creatures had becomes penalty on the right side. Head ache to keep track

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b0rsuk
b0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted September 26, 2016 12:37 PM

Or maybe just make a second league for Magic heroes. Agree with your opponent that you will only recruit Magic heroes...

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