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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: What would you want to see from a "New" homm3?
Thread: What would you want to see from a "New" homm3? This thread is 8 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT»
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 01, 2016 08:40 AM

Some people don't seem to see that their arguing is paradoxical.

The better people think H3 is, and the more it is still played now, the more fan projects are still in the making for that game, the less you need a "new H3" that is like H3 - the old has obviously not only aged well, it has been expanded as well, so why would you try to redo that with a "new H3-like H3"?

What about the next HoMM being "based on" H3?
There has been one take on it, and that is called H5. No matter what people may think who see all Heroes games only under one aspect - it has been done, and successfully, and the fact that H5 is also worked on by fans speaks for itself.

Of course H5 is far from perfect as well - as is H3.

But you have to realize that the basic parameters of the Heroes game as such make it difficult to leave a certain "bandwidth" anyway:

The game consists of two parts, adventure and battle, and the game is supposed to be played fast, that is, turns shouldn't take too long. This is done by keeping the tasks low on the advanture map: a maximum of 8 "units" to move and do something with, plus a limited number of towns to limit the building activities as well.
With battles, we have the same strict limitations - while battles CAN be done with autocombat, something the MP scene of other games accepts, I think, the Heroes crowd wants to manual. Be that as it may, on both fields you are between a rock and a hard place, because more complexity always means more time necessary. The more complex battles become, the longer they take. This can have very subtle reasons, and you are never free in design - H6 tried to let creatures live longer, reducing the ratio of HP/Damage => Battles last longer; more active abilities for creatures => battles last longer AND AI is more complex to program for active than for passive abilities.
And so on.
Same with town-building and movement actions: complexity vs. duration. The more complex town structures become - the less towns a map will feature.

Then there is the balancing. On one hand players want options and variations and of course asymmetric balance, because having different factions makes sense only when they PLAY different (and not only look that way). Same with heroes. Each ACTIVE ability raises the bar for the AI (if you have a strong active ability a creature is strong - but only when the ability is also used well, which the AI must be capable to; a passive ability will be used automatically, AI or not).

So in reality, every Heroes design must follow a very thin line, because IN ITS SUM all the parts must fit and keep the balance between player options/descision making/complexity/true variety and simplicity/ease-of-handling/AI-friendliness/balance. If one is out of kilter the game suffers from it.
Practically spoken, the game must be good and complex and interesting enough to warrant extensoive single-player gaming, and also fast and short and balanced enough to warrant MP play.

That's the actual challenge in making the game, and in the end it is fairly easy to see that H3 hit a good mark in that regard, but it also means, that when you start with some givens, your hands in designing the game become more tied with each given. H5 generally upped the complexity of structures - most notably hero skills, town building, active abilities, faction diversity and creature upgrades - but reduced things as well - smaller battlefield, only one hero per faction, less spells -, leading to a game leaning more to the complex/longer turn side of things, for example.

Which is the reason why you need ingenious "new" solutions when you want to make "a new" Heroes 3 that would lead to the new Heroes 3 having not much in common with H3 at all except the overall above SUM OF PARTS - or it would be more or less H3 over and over again.
That may sound paradoxical, but is also logical.

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 01, 2016 08:51 AM
Edited by Stevie at 09:00, 01 Aug 2016.

Salamandre said:
Sweetie, I have not the slightest problem with you liking H5, is your taste after all and nobody is perfect. But, here, some maths for you, so you can also understand my point without going into calling names. Also notice that both H5 seasons length is 3 years each, not one as the previous.

Case closed, for me at least.


What you're showing there is ultimately unrelated to the fact that a game can have good points despite being competitively underplayed compared to its predecessors. That's not only fallacious, but also audacious when followed by the subtle claim that anyone who dares acknowledge the fact has not played H2 and 3 intensively enough. Beyond the myriad of issues with tempo, graphics and whatnot, Heroes 5 is mechanically the best Heroes game ever, but you'd never know. Your Heroes 3 bubble made you ignorant to anything else, regardless if it's good or bad on its own, because your criteria for something being superior is of your own making, and from what it seems it relies on elitism and not analysis. From this point of view, JJ's a league above you, because he's not only building his arguments logically, but he also understands the current context of today's gaming industry (and that of the past), something which you will never be able to do with your inward, tunnel visioned mentality.
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The Young Traveler

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted August 01, 2016 08:51 AM

JollyJoker said:
Something that works, works. You don't need to redo that, when you don't have a new angle. Otherwise it's just a milking of the cash-cow.


As opposed to milking of the cashcow with something that doesn't work (probably no more milking at all after VII as a result BTW)?

artu said:
But the content can grow enormously with today's posibbilites. Original Heroes 3 is like 700 mb or something. Imagine hundreds of various neutral monsters, XXX large maps, many more units with unique spells, countless artifacts, improved skill system with unique sub-skills and spells plus abilities, different defense systems for different towns, more variety in war machines, HD graphics, many more buildings with protective garrisons...  


Mate you make me dream...

Stevie said:
Salamandre said:
And there is no advantage H5 can claim, is just an awful Heroes game. People who didn't intensively played H2 nor H3 will surely find in it good things.

When I read this I realized that there's no real point in debating with someone who utters such dismissive nonsense. But I applaud JJ's valiant effort. Pearls before swine.


Knowing Sal he probably gave up after loading times, AI turns and awful 3D before he could dig the gameplay, which is understandable.

JollyJoker said:
Some people don't seem to see that their arguing is paradoxical.

The better people think H3 is, and the more it is still played now, the more fan projects are still in the making for that game, the less you need a "new H3" that is like H3


I stopped reading. Too much bs.
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 01, 2016 08:59 AM
Edited by Stevie at 08:59, 01 Aug 2016.

Galaad said:
Stevie said:
Salamandre said:
And there is no advantage H5 can claim, is just an awful Heroes game. People who didn't intensively played H2 nor H3 will surely find in it good things.

When I read this I realized that there's no real point in debating with someone who utters such dismissive nonsense. But I applaud JJ's valiant effort. Pearls before swine.


Knowing Sal he probably gave up after loading times, AI turns and awful 3D before he could dig the gameplay, which is understandable.


Probably, but I wouldn't pull things out of my ass making bold claims when I know I have no knowledge beyond surface level.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted August 01, 2016 10:08 AM

It doesn't really change the point anyway does it?

V is your favorite, and you can thank III for it.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 01, 2016 11:00 AM

Is that the same logic as "3 is your favorite and you can thank 2 for it"?

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted August 01, 2016 11:41 AM
Edited by Galaad at 11:51, 01 Aug 2016.

I don't understand why you think a new angle is the only option, let alone the most popular or mandatory to sell.

Yes, first there was I (I didn't play that one much), then II which was awesome and III everyone loved. All, like Sal was explaining, in a solid, logical and loyal continuum. V, despite number of differences and putting 3d aside, still in the core gameplay kept with this tradition and has now a future similar to wog.

Where is it wrong? Why change for something else? You keep saying we need a new angle, but I tell you, no, we don't. And is safer not to. Please improve without butchering if you will, then all kinds of new features are more than welcomed.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 01, 2016 12:42 PM

I have written enough and long enough posts now that by now you should have a good idea why a new angle is the only reasonable and realistic way to get the franchise going again.

You are in competition with this combined with this and this, available for 7.99 for a lifetime of gameplay, and if that's not enough you can also add this combined with this for 6.95 and another lifetime of gameplay.

Why would you enter that competition? You'd still have to change and add and put enough work into it to make it buyable (and people not going, it's H3 with new graphics, like H3 HD), but one wrong judgement call in "removing flaws" or "adding content" - and in fact, too much of a deja vu as well - and your game bites the bullet - and in that case people would opt to stay with what they have already.

Since there is no error margin at all, but a very fine line to hit with the game as such, you need that angle that makes the game a must-have because no other HoMM offers that gameplay. Of course the game must be "good", it must have the essentials and it must have the "Heroes feeling", all things that don't exactly make this task easier.

Picking the old things for themselves, without a vision or a new angle doesn't work: parts may look good by themselves, but may not work at all in combination with other parts. So you need the master angle, that picks for you. Of course this is not exactly easy either. To give an example, the designers of H7 didn't know that working with 7 spell schools would not be much of a new angle, but a master part in itself needing a ton of special consideration with a view on MGs and hero skills. Result: desaster.

Then you have the content problem. If asked, no one would be against 12 playable factions - I mean, WHY NOT???
So you need a vision of how to deliver that NOW - it's clear that you cannot make a Heroes-3-like game with 12 playable and sufficiently different Heroes-3-like factions and then put in 50 neutrals for good measure.
You also want SPELLS. 40 spells in vanilla H5 so sucked. Meanwhile, though, there are also spell-lookalikes; War Cries, Runes, all kinds of active abilities, cooldowns for those, hero attacks, you name it.
That needs to be sorted to find the balance.

You may examine the economy and you may examine heroes. H4 Classes was great: first two skills you put two upgrades into define your Class and give you a unique bonus. However, there are also faction skills...

There is a lot to consider, and you need the new angle to AXE what is unnecessary, as a filter, like I said. Because you must also remove what is redundant, and trust me, a lot is redundant, when you start heaping features above each other, just because you don't want to give up on anything.

Then you need to make the game easily moddable, and when I say moddable, I mean CONTENT-ADDING.

There you go.

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 01, 2016 12:51 PM

Galaad said:
It doesn't really change the point anyway does it?

V is your favorite, and you can thank III for it.


And Heroes 4, and Ubisoft + Nival for their own (good) innovations. Again, Heroes 3 is not the holy cow of the franchise.
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted August 01, 2016 01:01 PM

So precisely because these games are so great you want to drift away from them, fascinating.

JollyJoker said:
Of course the game must be "good", it must have the essentials and it must have the "Heroes feeling", all things that don't exactly make this task easier.


Of course, if the Heroes feeling is a hindrance to you there is no possible doubt with the legitimacy of your approach.

Stevie said:
Again, Heroes 3 is not the holy cow of the franchise.


Again? There is what you think on one side and the figures on the other.
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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted August 01, 2016 01:35 PM

I don't understand the current discussion. The question is: 'What would you want to see from a "New" homm3?' and in the OP it even says:

HorazVitae said:
We are gonna try to merge the best features of every HoMM, with maybe a bit of innovation from our side


In any case, with such an intangible subject, the only 2 criteria I can think of is that:
1) The game has to be good.
2) It has to be a heroes game.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 01, 2016 01:42 PM

"Drifting away" isn't "finding a new angle". That's fanboy angst-speak that translates, "we must not lose anything that makes this so great" (always followed by, "they will ruin everything!").
But what fanboys don't understand is that you can expand and elaborate on a theme only so often, before you have to start to try and get a new perspective, otherwise things become boring and repetitive.

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 01, 2016 01:48 PM
Edited by Stevie at 13:50, 01 Aug 2016.

Galaad said:
Stevie said:
Again, Heroes 3 is not the holy cow of the franchise.


Again? There is what you think on one side and the figures on the other.


You know I can cite figures from successful franchises like Civilization and Age of Wonders that are not only recent but also have a history of continuously growing upwards, unlike Heroes whose moment of greatness is stuck at 3 or arguably 5, right? And then I could go on and argue that Heroes could've been like that if it weren't for this ridiculous "the future is in the past" mentality. You know that it's precisely because they couldn't replicate the genius of Civilization 3 that they made a completely different Civilization 4, right? And you know that they made a completely different Civilization 5 because they couldn't replicate the genius of Civilization 4, right? And you know that they are doing YET AGAIN a completely different Civilization 6 because they can never replicate the ultra extended and modded Civilization 5, right?

Yes, it's precisely because a game is critically acclaimed that you don't seek to copy it, because you can't compete with it and the fan content accumulating over time, and there's no point in competing with it either, not if you wanna sell. Otherwise people will just realize that they have already PAID for those features with the previous games, who in the meantime also got a lot of polish, expansions, DLCs and mods, content which can never be achieved with a simple vanilla release. The problem with the approach of "building upon" is that it creates the expectations that the next Heroes game has to incorporate the definitive version of WoG, Heroes 5 TotE, and also everything else objective and subjective, and be even more definitive and better than all of them combined in a single Vanilla release! What do we have now, a Heroes 7 vanilla that strove to be all of that by the mercy of whoever deemed that to be a reasonable goal to pursue, and it's utterly dismembered, broken and ugly. Heroes 5 was the exact same, but by the many tribulations it endured it finally arrived at being the miracle that TotE was.

That's why a NEW entry is supposed to bring NEW things as it's primary imperative that is also in the snowing title. It's the sole reason to create a NEW game. If it doesn't bring NEW things to the table, then it's not a NEW game, it's a snowing remake or a best-of (lol).
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted August 01, 2016 01:49 PM

You can have reasons for a new version of the game on a functional level or on a technical level. Heroes3 was programmed in a time where you had technical limitations, like a proper graphics engine that could render the 3D images they designed on customer computers. Hence they opted for 2D images instead, drawn from those 3D models. Likewise, memory restrictions capped stuff like levels with weird turn-over points due to many numbers being signed integers and all.

With modern hardware, a lot of those technical limitations and drawbacks can be remedied and might warrant a new version in their own right, without changing the game (much) on a functional level. Taking away technical limitations may give rise to new functionality added in the sideline though, like the aforementioned levels. Removing the turn-over point suddenly opens options for high level games, for instance. Modern resolutions also allow for a much larger view of the world and a GUI to support it (including zooming in and out; AoW3 does this quite nicely, for example). The underlaying game concepts don't need to be that different at all to still warrant a new version of the game, if you ask me.
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted August 01, 2016 01:50 PM

Again I didn't say finding a new angle wasn't possible, only more ambitious. And facts shows the games that remained faithful were successful and the others not as much, so the only reason to bother about a new angle would be if you already have it, otherwise it's the change for the sake of it erratum.
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Stevie
Stevie


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Undefeatable Hero
posted August 01, 2016 01:57 PM

Well, the change has to be good no matter what, it's not supposed to be for the sake of it. For example Heroes 4 and 6 changed a lot of things and they sucked. But not changing anything, or making it a priority to change as little as possible, is without a doubt a lead that will get this franchise nowhere.
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The Young Traveler

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted August 01, 2016 02:02 PM

Stevie said:
not changing anything, or making it a priority to change as little as possible


That's not it, just don't fix what doesn't need to be fixed why would you? Improve, add, expand upon. That gave us III after II, then V. These games are no clones of each other are they?
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 01, 2016 02:03 PM

Which is EXACTLY what I said. A NEW game must wait for someone having the angle.

What Maurice says, is actually happening a lot these days, either porting old console hits for the new ones or remaking stuff in HD - here is a list of these, and Heroes III is among them (but without the addons, and since everything is actually based on the SoD version, it's another half-assed Ubi thing).

But this is about GRAPHICS first and foremost, and the new internet properties, Steam, and so on, for easy MP. Also, if a profit business like Ubisoft wanted to incorporate additional content - say, they had aspired to not only make H3 COMPLETE HD, but also add WoG for good measure -, their legal department will pull all emergency breaks, because they cannot simply use fan-made content and make a profit, while there is no one who could actually give them a license either. This is a very gray area and rather complicated. One solution might be to allow for easy mod integration, but that's a technical thing.

But that is still a remake, and no new game, no new content, no new features.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 01, 2016 02:06 PM

Galaad said:
Stevie said:
not changing anything, or making it a priority to change as little as possible


That's not it, just don't fix what doesn't need to be fixed why would you? Improve, add, expand upon. That gave us III after II, then V. These games are no clones of each other are they?
5 actually has a couple of new angles, not the least of which is 3d.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted August 01, 2016 02:10 PM
Edited by Galaad at 14:11, 01 Aug 2016.

Yeah, the great 3D implementation of V, among its strong points lol
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