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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Dimension Door
Thread: Dimension Door
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 16, 2016 02:57 PM

Dimension Door

Let's discuss the spell Dimension Door:
Dimension Door is banned in many maps for good reasons, at expert Air Magic you can cast it 4 times a day and cover huge distances, it also allows you to skip guards and grab goodies behind monsters, Quest Guards and Border Guards and Gates and you can even use it in the shroud and from water to water!
What if the spell only allowed 1 cast from no Air Magic - advanced Air Magic and 2 casts at expert Air Magic? If the map is set up carefully you can't skip much with Dimension Door, would it be reasonable then? Or what does it take to make Dimension Door reasonable?  

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frostymuaddib
frostymuaddib


Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
posted September 16, 2016 03:06 PM

I like it how it is. Ban it for multi if you want, as for other maps good map maker will know how to use the spell. I wouldn't change anything.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted September 16, 2016 03:06 PM

You want areas where DD can be used freely, areas that is so to say your territory or neutral territory and you want areas where it can't be used freely so it's not an almost certain win/allows you to drag out the map, once you get the spell.

I don't think the spell itself is an issue, it's more how to control it. Cursed ground is the only thing that comes to my mind right now, which have the extra consequence of removing much more than only DD.

It's in a way easier with fly, though I find the non-flyable ground to be annoying in that I can't find much purpose in it otherwise. Also fly has exploits DD doesn't have.

Also there's the issue that a spell like DD makes a 144x144 map seem awfully small suddenly.

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Homer171
Homer171


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted September 16, 2016 03:19 PM

Yes, it's OP.

I like that the game has this spell, as do I enjoy mass haste/slow. Not balanced but they are part of classic HoMM. I perfectly understand they took it away in H4 and Town Portal changed to nearest town only. But Heroes 1-3 where quite similiar and this spell was from the start.

Now days the internet multiplaying gaming is so wide, you can't have that huge balance caps in games. H3 is old game and it has it's flaws but that's fine. You can set your own rules if you want to, I for one never liked cartographer and was really glad you can take it away in wog.

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zmudziak22
zmudziak22


Supreme Hero
Heroes 3 Fan
posted September 16, 2016 03:54 PM

I think Dimension Door should require more movement points but allow to travel small distance like Instant Travel(Heroes 5 Dimension Door)

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted September 16, 2016 03:57 PM
Edited by Maurice at 16:05, 16 Sep 2016.

It's all open for fantasizing of course, as it's unlikely any major changes are going to occur to the spell. That being said, I would opt to change the Dimension Door spell the following way:

Dimension Door: allows the caster to teleport to any unoccupied tile within the spells' range, once per day. Consumes a certain amount of movement points, depending on number of tiles crossed.

Unskilled: Range of 8 tiles, movement reduction by 5 tiles.
Basic: Range of 9 tiles, movement reduction by 4 tiles.
Advanced: Range of 10 tiles, movement reduction by 3 tiles.
Expert: Range of 11 tiles, movement reduction by 2 tiles.

Furthermore, you can't Dimension Door into territory you have not seen before (i.e., not into the shroud).

Besides that, the game should probably also allow for two items:
- An adventure map object that prohibits anyone from teleporting within X tiles radius of that object, except for the owner of said object;
- An artifact which pretty much does the same but then centered on the Hero who has it equipped;

Can of course come in multiple Tiers, with higher Tiers having a larger radius in which Dimension Door may not be targetted. This immediately allows map makers to prohibit players from teleporting into certain areas.
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batoonike
batoonike


Known Hero
posted September 17, 2016 08:34 PM
Edited by batoonike at 20:35, 17 Sep 2016.

It bypasses the most basic game mechanics. And makes it so that everyone is playing one game but the hero that has it is almost like playing another game where adventure map logic is not present. If there would be a spell that allows you to win a battle regardless of army or hero it would be on the same level with dimension door.

Balancing it would be difficult. Maybe if everyone could obtain it reasonably easily it could lead to a different game where teleporting around is part of the core logic.

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 17, 2016 09:58 PM
Edited by Stevie at 21:58, 17 Sep 2016.

I agree with Maurice on how it could work.
Fly could also allow passage over forest and map objects, not mountains or water, at an increased movement points cost.
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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted September 17, 2016 10:00 PM

In Might and Magic 7 there's also the Fly spell. I recall In Nighon there exist a mountain so tall that you cannot fly to the top. Reaching the top by using the jump spell it turns out the mountain is actually a volcano.

So Fly having limits depending on the object would fit the world the game is based on in my opinion.

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phe
phe


Famous Hero
Life and Freedom
posted September 17, 2016 10:47 PM
Edited by phe at 22:51, 17 Sep 2016.

Dimension Door mana cost could be depended on army size (HP sum);
Magic creatures like Mages, Enchanters, Soreceresses and Magic Elementals would decrease total cost (not by 1,2 or 3 but depending on their HP sum 10%, 20%, 30%, ...)
Dimension Door for magic classes of heroes would get : range +1 after 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 750, 1000, 1500, 2000, 3000 casts etc.; after 250 casts it can teleport a hero from surface to underground or from underground to surface (to revealed place)

http://lifeandfreedom.rf.gd/lfb.htm#spells

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 17, 2016 11:18 PM

phe said:
Dimension Door mana cost could be depended on army size (HP sum);



Look, when you have dim door, you will most probably have town portal as well. Setting the cost to army size will just invite the players to go with a pixie, take a town then just town portal forth and back for rest of army.
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phe
phe


Famous Hero
Life and Freedom
posted September 18, 2016 12:24 AM
Edited by phe at 00:27, 18 Sep 2016.

Salamandre said:
phe said:
Dimension Door mana cost could be depended on army size (HP sum);



Look, when you have dim door, you will most probably have town portal as well. Setting the cost to army size will just invite the players to go with a pixie, take a town then just town portal forth and back for rest of army.

Isn't it possible in vanilla game? Minimum cost would be this original value...just after your army will be larger than for example 3000HP DD mana cost will be 21 instead of 20...

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b0rsuk
b0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted September 18, 2016 10:23 AM
Edited by b0rsuk at 12:28, 18 Sep 2016.

What if Town Portal cost also depended on the size of the army ? Go around with a pixie if you want! I sure hope that one pixie is good in bed!

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 18, 2016 10:42 AM

Well of course, you can make the game less fun, much more restricting, is not that hard.

In 16 years of playing I used/got dim door maybe 4-5 times. In random maps is removed, in custom maps is removed or added as an exceptional bonus in special situations. Dimension door is the top of the cake, very powerful and a tool of rewarding a player for exceptional effort. What I see here is penalizing the player who did the best, by burdening his actions. Make it more interesting by varying its effects, harder to get if you want.  

The point is, you don't have to consider that all features in Heroes must used in the common daily playing. Some are just very powerful ones, to be used in role playing driven maps or campaigns. Like DD, Aurora Borealis, Angel wings, Tome of Air and the necro Cloack.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted September 18, 2016 12:20 PM

Salamandre said:
What I see here is penalizing the player who did the best, by burdening his actions.


Actually, the aim is to pull DD out of that elitist niche and make it more readily accessible for everyday gameplay.

Personally, I think that adventure map objects with a certain radius that prevent Heroes from DD'ing to a target cell within that radius can alleviate most of the resistance against the spell, without truly affecting the spell itself.

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