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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Is there a future for Heroes?
Thread: Is there a future for Heroes? This thread is 37 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 20 30 ... 33 34 35 36 37 · «PREV / NEXT»
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 15, 2019 02:50 PM

Okay, you are right, there is a winning formula.

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CountBezuhoff
CountBezuhoff


Famous Hero
Master of the merchant's guild
posted June 15, 2019 03:25 PM
Edited by CountBezuhoff at 21:10, 15 Jun 2019.

Fredboy, did you really just repost Oddie's gif from earlier?

The Count
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Caliostro
Caliostro


Hired Hero
posted June 15, 2019 08:12 PM

Elvin said:

- Better game pace.
- Linear faction balance, factions not becoming overpowered or underpowered after x weeks.
- No sluggish, exploit-based creeping. Good players are known for having 45 min turns to kill ridiculous amounts of neutrals with barely any army.
- Much better UI and information overview in general. H5 needs 3 screens to show what the H3 hero screen shows in one. Superior creature hiring screen. Kingdom overview. Etc.
- Hexes work far better than tiles and 1x2 large units work better than 2x2.
- No skills that can make your earlygame ridiculously easy like war machines. No 2% rare skills that can turn your faction completely overpowered like enlightenment for orcs/haven or dark for sylvan.
- No dependence on mass spell abilities while you don't know which spells you will encounter. You either risk getting the wrong mass perk(s) or delaying and not getting them later.
- Far more varied spell pool and spellcasting combinations because H3 supports multiple schools whereas in H5 even 2 can be dead weight for most factions.
- Exceptional atmosphere that H5 cannot match.
- Unique terrain like magic plains, clover field, cursed ground etc.
- Creature bank outline where you start surrounded.
- No ridiculous amounts of randomness. H5 luck and morale with an easily-reached 50% chance, making a joke out of tactical planning.  Or random unit atb ranging between 0 and 25%. Or random hero order that can completely screw you up in light vs dark battles. In that chaotic environment, you can cast two mass spells in one turn with effects like +60% damage or +40% initiative.




I hope i understood you right.
- The pace of HoMM3 is faster. So fast, that tournaments ban Red rush.
- But arenít Inferno - one of the weakest factions on start, while Necro is one of the strongest? Donít some factions increase their power radical after receiving tier 4-5 magic guilds? Is it worth mentioning that Necro become insanely strong due to skeleball?
- What about things, like harpies + barrier? Or mass berserk? Or something like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GxbrrHfslM ?
- Let me disagree - ATB + old info window is more informative in battle, as well, as book of spells in HoMM5. I donít think that ATB needs to be explained. About book - it shows spell bonuses and weaknesses or immunities.
Besides that, you can take info about deaths and magic resists right from the battlefield, without the need to look at the line.
As for heroes UI, HoMM5 has just more text in biographies, so it will not be the best solution to put it in a pop-up window. Also secondary skills in HoMM5 have another structure, which needs additional place (which is occupied by 3D model of hero).
- Do you mean that 1x2 creatures are easier to pass obstacles? Well, thatís true. But on the other side it gives restrictions for further development. For example - flanking system will not work.
- Earlygame mostly depends on hero and town. If you have hero with ballista spec, than yes - it can be. Otherwise magic is no less effective. Was it different in HoMM3?
Speaking of skills, how often someone picks first Ballistics, Artillery, Eagle Eye, First Aid, Mysticism, Learning? And how often someone ignore Air magic, Earth magic, Wisdom, Archery, Armorer, Diplomacy, Offense, Logistics?
Mass perks? You can pick them all from darklight. Due to combining the effects of some old spells and generally reducing their number, you can easily predict, which spells you and your enemy will gain or use. Therefore - you can better plan your build. While in HoMM3 chances that your enemy will gain ęhasteĽ or ęslowĽ are pretty close for nearly all towns. About Righteous Might in HoMM5 - its max effectiveness is +46% damage, if i remember it right (HoMM5 has another formula for attackdefense).
Also lets not to forget about some game-breaking spells, like Dimension Door and Mass Berserk, Town Portal (which you can get or not). And yep, other side of turns - you will always want to use the most powerful spells, disregarding "protection from fire sort o spells" because your enemy will always react on your actions. That means, that you canít cast two spells in one turn. This means less fun to use magic and less variability. You can partly solve the problem of magic spells with perks like Magic Insight.
I know, that sounds strange, but why not? We have a lot of ways to influence morale, luck and cast-speed. Things, like " sorcery " exists exactly for that purpose. Tankydamaging factions can always payback in a non-magical way (at least one magic school you always have). I saw dozens of such fights.
Besides that, if you can cast twice per turn that means, that you have at least "Expert Sorcery" and one school of magic, which means, that you had to sacrifice other important perks. I want to remind you that in HoMM5 you can choose only 5 roots, unlike in HoMM3.  
Also good morale effect in HoMM5 gives you time to react on it, unlike in HoMM3. Yes, start of combat is all about random (if you have no Swift Mind), but after that you can control it.

Oooof, now thatís a lot of translated text. I also must say, that its funny, that our armies always fall into the same trap with creatures banks. But I missed something like that in HoMM5 too. Magic plains, clover field, cursed ground - good things too, but just as Sphere of Permanence or Spirit of Oppression, they can fully negate some builds, what is critical in HoMM5 conditions.  
Modding - ok, thatís a solid +

A few words in the direction of 2D:
What about situations like this? https://pp.userapi.com/c851424/v851424290/142b00/_DSYOknsg_U.jpg
You canít turn the camera to see their exact number. Also what about hero icons? HoMM3 is very old-fashioned game, but itís almost impossible to determine gender of some heroes.

About titans:
May be titans from HoMM5 looks huge, but they should be huge. While titans from HoMM3 looks smaller, than nagas and only a bit higher, than ordinary man. This is completely wrong. And yes, titans from HoMM5 are far from ideal, because of their monotony. My favorite model of titans is from HoMM7 (but not sounds and animations). THESE guys have no need in swords. Their bodies are weapons and armor themselves.

About trio-criteria:
I mentioned it because they can be can be applied to many elements from different games: Prey, Division, Warcraft, Dark Souls, Xcom, Banner Saga and etc. The main idea, is that the stronger each of 3 elements and the stronger their links, the better. You can apply these criteriaís on weapons, creatures, interactive objects, artifacts and etc.




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Oddball13579
Oddball13579


Supreme Hero
Thread Destroyer
posted June 15, 2019 08:49 PM

CountBezuhoff said:
fred79 said:


Fredboy, did you really just repost Oddie's gif from earlier?


BOI
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted June 15, 2019 09:27 PM

@Caliostro

By pace I do not mean rushing, simply that turns are faster and don't waste your time with pointless stuff. In multiplayer, even a relatively small map would take 6 hours minimum and that with sim turns.

Necro is an exception to the linear progression due to its mechanics. H5 actually improved on that when it introduced the limited dark energy points and raising more undead types.

Forcefield/firewall tricks are again exceptions and even then they require that you know the spell and have enough mana. H5 has far more, far easier exploits and often at no cost at all. I hate exploits.

Biographies are irrelevant. The meaty things are combat and adventure map descriptions and afaik the real H5 improvement was showing number of deaths instead of just dmg. Secondary skill structure could be incorporated into the H3 hero screen without much trouble. The idea is that H5 takes too much space either for no particular reason or to show off the hero model. Also why would they introduce a worse hiring screen after so many years :/

Flanking has never been implemented well but it would work better with hexes anyway. Hexes work better with anything.

H3 artillery is far more limited, even if I wish it wasn't. But the point is, if you upgrade ballista/skin tent in H5, your neutral eradication and xp pace snowballs like crazy from the first week. There are ofc more offenders like clearing the map with 7 invisible stalkers and a free fireball from secrets of destruction. If you are in possession of a ridiculously good combination you can clear ridiculously powerful enemies as of week 2 and that can break a map.

Arguing weak or strong skills is kinda pointless. The good H3 skills are good for everyone so ofc they will go for them, cheap as that is. The good H5 skills will massively favour certain factions to the point of being completely broken. Again, enlightenment for orcs and sylvan's rain of frenzy.

No amount of arguing can make H5 mass spell design look like a good idea :/ Ofc same goes for H3 mass spells being acquired for free. Both terrible, only H3 cannot screw you up or force random choices on you.

Casting two mass spells in one turn is a pretty terrible mechanic. I am very fond of sorcery though.
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Su_Lang_Manchu
Su_Lang_Manchu

Tavern Dweller
posted June 16, 2019 11:59 PM

Oh wow, this thread has surely been productive. It's a bit sad to see how the thread has derailed into a : "No, you don't understand. Heroes 3 is the best thing ever because I like A, B, C so much".

I see now why Ubisoft keeps failing. Ubisoft tried to make new games, instead of just milking Heroes 3, like Microsoft did with Age of Empires 2

Think about it: New expansions, new factions, some balance tweaks. Ubisoft could just put HotA into a box and make people pay for it. It's what Microsoft did with Forgotten Empires lol.

And now they are caching in with another re-hash: The Age of Empire Definite Edition. And everybody is celebrating because they are implementing elements that have been standard for 15 years in the genre.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 17, 2019 07:12 AM

Su_Lang_Manchu said:

I see now why Ubisoft keeps failing. Ubisoft tried to make new games, instead of just milking Heroes 3

Lol, no, Ubisoft actually tried both and failed with both.

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Caliostro
Caliostro


Hired Hero
posted June 17, 2019 09:11 AM

Su_Lang_Manchu said:
Oh wow, this thread has surely been productive. It's a bit sad to see how the thread has derailed into a : "No, you don't understand. Heroes 3 is the best thing ever because I like A, B, C so much".

I see now why Ubisoft keeps failing. Ubisoft tried to make new games, instead of just milking Heroes 3, like Microsoft did with Age of Empires 2

Think about it: New expansions, new factions, some balance tweaks. Ubisoft could just put HotA into a box and make people pay for it. It's what Microsoft did with Forgotten Empires lol.

And now they are caching in with another re-hash: The Age of Empire Definite Edition. And everybody is celebrating because they are implementing elements that have been standard for 15 years in the genre.

To be honest, I provoked people to answer, why they like HoMM3 so much. And I'm happy, that i heard something constructive, because I also had things to answer. I still have thoughts to write, but the main arguments were already written.

I think Ubi really experimented only once Ė with HoMM6Ö and for some reason they retconned Ashan. Looks like they tried to place a bet on new players: more convenient logistics, less resources, new factions design, so they become more like the familiar archetypes of nations in fantasy universes. They also added faction with pretty popular Japanese theme.

In HoMM7 they tried hard to make game more like HoMM3, at least in little things. They even added troglodytes and medusas to Dungeon faction... for some reason. Because I donít think, that people choose this line-up themselves. Another line-up wined first vote and it looked more promising. But on the other hand, there was line-up, which looked like HoMM3 line-up on 5 of 7 creatures.      

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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted June 17, 2019 11:36 AM

Quote:
They even added troglodytes and medusas to Dungeon faction... for some reason

troglodytes, medusae, and minotaurs belong in dungeons. They have always belonged there, historically, and it's dumb as snow not to include them in that faction from the get-go
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Caliostro
Caliostro


Hired Hero
posted June 17, 2019 12:04 PM

monere said:
Quote:
They even added troglodytes and medusas to Dungeon faction... for some reason

troglodytes, medusae, and minotaurs belong in dungeons. They have always belonged there, historically, and it's dumb as snow not to include them in that faction from the get-go

Hahah, thats what I am talking about. Some fans simply dont want to see anything, what is different from HoMM3. They dont care about new lore and rules of new world.
But what, if i will tell you, what another line-up contained: minotaurs, beholders, troglodytes, manticores and black dragons?
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted June 17, 2019 12:09 PM

Caliostro said:
Some fans simply dont want to see anything, what is different from HoMM3.


New dungeon creature made in Ubishaft!



I mean I don't mind lineup changes but if that is the kind of alternatives we get I rather keep the old units thank you very much.
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Caliostro
Caliostro


Hired Hero
posted June 17, 2019 12:27 PM
Edited by Caliostro at 12:27, 17 Jun 2019.

Galaad said:
Caliostro said:
Some fans simply dont want to see anything, what is different from HoMM3.


New dungeon creature made in Ubishaft!

I mean I don't mind lineup changes but if that is the kind of alternatives we get I rather keep the old units thank you very much.


Yep, I dont like these guys. Because of their lore, functions and appearance. But did you see their medusas? They have even more problems with lore.

Line-ups from HoMM5 and 6 were ok. Ubi even gave a nice justification for the appearance of beholders.


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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted June 17, 2019 12:28 PM

Caliostro said:
Hahah, thats what I am talking about. Some fans simply dont want to see anything, what is different from HoMM3. They dont care about new lore and rules of new world.
But what, if i will tell you, what another line-up contained: minotaurs, beholders, troglodytes, manticores and black dragons?

you've misunderstood my point, though. I wasn't talking about the game, I meant in real life history those creatures belong in dungeons, so it makes all of the sense in the world to leave them there.

I know that this is a fantasy game and fantasy can go really wild (and it should), but it should also maintain a sense of realism, as well, especially when history is so uncertain and ambiguous (has anyone actually seen / proven that minotaurs have existed?)

As for the fans who don't want to see anything different you are wrong. Every die-hard HoMM on this forum has been "crying" for a new HoMM game for a decade, so they couldn't possibly not want to see anything different... as long as different is a good "different", not a horrible "different"

That line-up also belongs to dungeon. All of these creatures belong to dungeon since this has always been the case with HoMM. You wanna create new lore and new rules? By all means, go ahead and do it! That's what everyone is looking forward to anyway. Just don't change / replace the damn dungeon with abominations. Again, this is a fantasy game that is based on mythology and god-knows there's gazillion mythological creatures that have never seen the light of the day in the HoMM franchise (even I have been able to find at least 10 unique creatures for my game that belong to different cultures), and you want to tell me that a multi-million company like Ubisoft is unable to find new creatures to fit their "lore and new rules"? I'm not believing this
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Su_Lang_Manchu
Su_Lang_Manchu

Tavern Dweller
posted June 17, 2019 12:38 PM

monere said:
Quote:
They even added troglodytes and medusas to Dungeon faction... for some reason

troglodytes, medusae, and minotaurs belong in dungeons. They have always belonged there, historically, and it's dumb as snow not to include them in that faction from the get-go


In other words, it's not a faction unless it has the same creature lineup as in H3...
Personally, I'll take proper Assassins and Beholders over Troglodytes all day every day. Troglodytes do nothing but stand there and die miserably.

Beholders are one of the most iconic monsters and have been featured more in the MM world than Troglodytes. Especially in H6 they were soooo useful. Damage over time, applies debuffs, makes enemy units take more damage etc.

Invisible Assassins (H6 and H5 Stalkers) add a lot to the gameplay of the faction. Invisibility is incredibly useful and gives your weak low-tier creature a couple of turns without incoming damage. You can snipte weak archers and and it's difficult for your enemy to spot them (unless he risks using an aoe spell). It's a troll move on your enemy and most of all, it is FUN.

They are even better at blocking enemy creatures because you just put them into the path of an enemy creature, stopping it dead in its tracks. And your opponent can't do anything.

Sigh... I'm just frustrated over all the missed opportunities in H7.

Caliostro said:
Su_Lang_Manchu said:
Oh wow, this thread has surely been productive. It's a bit sad to see how the thread has derailed into a : "No, you don't understand. Heroes 3 is the best thing ever because I like A, B, C so much".

I see now why Ubisoft keeps failing. Ubisoft tried to make new games, instead of just milking Heroes 3, like Microsoft did with Age of Empires 2

Think about it: New expansions, new factions, some balance tweaks. Ubisoft could just put HotA into a box and make people pay for it. It's what Microsoft did with Forgotten Empires lol.

And now they are caching in with another re-hash: The Age of Empire Definite Edition. And everybody is celebrating because they are implementing elements that have been standard for 15 years in the genre.

To be honest, I provoked people to answer, why they like HoMM3 so much. And I'm happy, that i heard something constructive, because I also had things to answer. I still have thoughts to write, but the main arguments were already written.

I think Ubi really experimented only once Ė with HoMM6Ö and for some reason they retconned Ashan. Looks like they tried to place a bet on new players: more convenient logistics, less resources, new factions design, so they become more like the familiar archetypes of nations in fantasy universes. They also added faction with pretty popular Japanese theme.

In HoMM7 they tried hard to make game more like HoMM3, at least in little things. They even added troglodytes and medusas to Dungeon faction... for some reason. Because I donít think, that people choose this line-up themselves. Another line-up wined first vote and it looked more promising. But on the other hand, there was line-up, which looked like HoMM3 line-up on 5 of 7 creatures.      



H7 was the safest bet Ubisoft could have taken. Limited budget, content recycling, trying to appease the fans. Really, if Heroes 5 can be seen as Heroes 3.5, Heroes 7 is more akin to Heroes 3.7... or at least that's what they tried. I have never perceived H7 anything else than a budget Heroes nostalgia trip. Which turned out to be true in hindsight.

And no, the Dungeon line-up was the one that people voted for. I remember it pretty well because it was the point where I stopped caring about the game. For my favourite faction (Dungeon) the most boring and passive line-up was chosen because it was more akin to H3.

In contrast, Black Hole truely had a vision to transform the game into a proper modern AAA title. I remember very clearly what they originally intended. Unique magical schools for each faction, distinctive hero progression and tactical bits like how weak morale imposes a real disadvantage on Inferno creatures etc.

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Caliostro
Caliostro


Hired Hero
posted June 17, 2019 01:02 PM
Edited by Caliostro at 14:27, 17 Jun 2019.

monere said:

you've misunderstood my point, though. I wasn't talking about the game, I meant in real life history those creatures belong in dungeons, so it makes all of the sense in the world to leave them there.



Oh, sorry then. But if we are speaking about real "life history", then medusas, harpies and manticores should not be in Dungeon. Also, pegases - sons of medusa.

I will try to explain the situation with medusas. They were added to Ashans lore in HoMM6 and they were living on islands, what is pretty close to original myth. These creatures belonged to "water faction", aka nagas. But after that they decided to put them in a Dungeon... where they are kinda refugees and renegades of their own people. But for some reasons they became the main long-range power of the dark elves.

I'm not trying to justify Ubi, they intentionally allowed to turn over their own canon to make something similar to HoMM3. Also, lets not forget, that it's not "Ubi" makes these games. Its different studios and yes, it looks, like they all have different sights on the same universe.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 17, 2019 02:56 PM

Su_Lang_Manchu said:

In contrast, Black Hole truely had a vision to transform the game into a proper modern AAA title. I remember very clearly what they originally intended. Unique magical schools for each faction, distinctive hero progression and tactical bits like how weak morale imposes a real disadvantage on Inferno creatures etc.
You know what they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted June 17, 2019 05:14 PM

@Su_Lang_Manchu

Quote:
Personally, I'll take proper Assassins and Beholders over Troglodytes all day every day

personally...

Also, what has beholders got to do with troglodytes / assassins?!? They're different tier, so why bring them into discussion, especially since beholders are part of that faction anyway? You guys never cease to amaze me how much you're trying to denigrate h3. Are you such big haters, or what?!?

Quote:
Troglodytes do nothing but stand there and die miserably

wouldn't it be great if all Dungeon creatures would be overpowered to the point where you can't kill them anymore? Cause that's what your arguments imply. Also, familiars and hobgoblins are worse than trogs, so what about those?

Quote:
Beholders are one of the most iconic monsters and have been featured more in the MM world than Troglodytes. Especially in H6 they were soooo useful. Damage over time, applies debuffs, makes enemy units take more damage etc.

cool story, but - again - why bring them into discussion? Beholders are already in dungeon, and no one has disputed them yet.

Quote:
Invisible Assassins (H6 and H5 Stalkers) add a lot to the gameplay of the faction. Invisibility is incredibly useful and gives your weak low-tier creature a couple of turns without incoming damage. You can snipte weak archers and and it's difficult for your enemy to spot them (unless he risks using an aoe spell). It's a troll move on your enemy and most of all, it is FUN.

are you done? Assassins are already part of dungeon, and no one disputed their place cause they do belong there, so why this essay about how this, and how that, and blah blah blah assassins are?


@callostro

Quote:
I will try to explain the situation with medusas

don't bother. I will still believe and like what I want. Save yourself the trouble
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Oddball13579
Oddball13579


Supreme Hero
Thread Destroyer
posted June 17, 2019 06:34 PM

Caliostro said:
Some fans simply dont want to see anything, what is different from HoMM3.
Not true. I'd love to see some new things. For instance, I loved Sanctuary as a town. The Kirin were my favorite unit in that town.

monere said:
As for the fans who don't want to see anything different you are wrong. Every die-hard HoMM on this forum has been "crying" for a new HoMM game for a decade, so they couldn't possibly not want to see anything different... as long as different is a good "different", not a horrible "different"
Precisely. Ubi actually needs to take them time and sit down and look at what made the past games work, and then try there damnedest to copy that, while still adding new things that continue to add and not take away.

Su_Lang_Manchu said:
Beholders are one of the most iconic monsters and have been featured more in the MM world than Troglodytes.
No. The most iconic monsters in both MM and HoMM have either been the Dragons or Angels/Devils.

Su_Lang_Manchu said:
And no, the Dungeon line-up was the one that people voted for. I remember it pretty well because it was the point where I stopped caring about the game. For my favourite faction (Dungeon) the most boring and passive line-up was chosen because it was more akin to H3.
As it should be. If you wanna add new units that's fine, you can always make a new town. But Dungeon has always been a fan favorite, so messing with its line up is a recipe for disaster. I was a little pissed when Medusae were missing from its line up.

Caliostro said:
I will try to explain the situation with medusas. They were added to Ashans lore in HoMM6 and they were living on islands, what is pretty close to original myth. These creatures belonged to "water faction", aka nagas.
Technically Medusae and Naga are not the same race. So Ubi could have easily gotten away with having both Medusae and Coral Priestess' in the game.

I think Ubi's greatest failing with HoMM7 was the lack of towns. They should have had all the OG factions, and then built onto that. Added new towns. The limitations are not the same as they were for HoMM3. HoMM7 could have had an amazing line up, instead Ubi stopped at 7. missing some of the most prominent and well known factions along the way.

For some godforsaken reason they made a goddamn vote between Dungeon and Inferno. Instead of taking the time to implement both of them. We had to choose which one we wanted in the game, which is complete and utter bullsnow btw. They forced us to chose between two of the most iconic factions within the universe. And then they go and add the Dwarf faction as DLC with no plans to add Inferno. Utter bs.

If there ever is a new Heroes game I really hope Ubi sits down and listens to what the community wants. No corner cutting, nothing. They need to hunker down and be willing to put there all into the game.
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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted June 17, 2019 06:40 PM
Edited by monere at 18:42, 17 Jun 2019.

@oddball

Quote:
Ubi actually needs to take them time and sit down and look at what made the past games work, and then try there damnedest to copy that, while still adding new things that continue to add and not take away

ubi is busy counting the cash, while we, the fans, continue crying here on this forum about not getting our favorite toy back. I don't mean to sound whiny but it's the harsh reality of it.

Quote:
They forced us to chose between two of the most iconic factions within the universe. And then they go and add the Dwarf faction as DLC with no plans to add Inferno. Utter bs.

yeah...
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 17, 2019 07:11 PM

Oddball13579 said:

monere said:
As for the fans who don't want to see anything different you are wrong. Every die-hard HoMM on this forum has been "crying" for a new HoMM game for a decade, so they couldn't possibly not want to see anything different... as long as different is a good "different", not a horrible "different"
Precisely. Ubi actually needs to take them time and sit down and look at what made the past games work, and then try there damnedest to copy that, while still adding new things that continue to add and not take away.

FFS, NO! That's NOT it! It doesn't work that way.

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