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Heroes Community > Tournament of Honor > Thread: TAZAR vs HACK
Thread: TAZAR vs HACK This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT»
notmytohhandle
notmytohhandle


Known Hero
posted December 13, 2002 01:31 PM

TAZAR vs HACK

Toss toss baby

So who is the best hero  ?

In my mind there was never any doubt, i like to kill stuff, not watching stuff trying to kill me weather they succeed or not.

But even tho my favorite was always hack hence his supperiority vs map, i always heard that hack dident stand a chance vs tazar in a main battle due to the fact that hacks offense bonus is calculated on base dmg ratio delivered from units. Whilst hacks armour bonus was calculated after the total amount of eventuall att/def bonus has been added to calculation.

this made sence to me so i went along thinking hack might loose a main battle, but i still thought he was supperior vs map since attack rating is easier to use and take advantage of vs wandering monsters.

But beeing bored last night i gave them both 50k experience (lvl 17). Gave them both exp offense and armour and 5 archangels since the archangels have a fixed damage ratio (50 dmg).

I loaded scenario many times. usually they ended up with same att / def rating (give or take 1 or 2 in either heroes advantage)if u addded both att/def primary skills together.

Interesting enough Hacks angels made more dmg every time. approx 30 dmg more (for all 5 angels).

Now how can this be ?

Well the awnser to this is the fact that tazar gains too much defense, wich actually makes him use his speciality less. the more defense added to tazars primary skill the less does his speciality work.

Whilst hack on the other side has alot less defense rating wich makes his armour much more beneficial (% speaking offcourse).

Also Armour speciality heroes take double dmg from towers during siege.

Also Armour speciality heroes has bonus vs ranged units, whilst offense does not add dmg delivered from ranged units.

Conclusion: Armour speciality rock, but unfortunetly armour speciality on heroes that gain mostly defense isent all that. All armour heroes gain mostly defense (3do programmers werent foos back in the old days ..)

Well its a tough call but Hacks gets my vote (like anyone is suprised)

Well so long for now, i will soon be back to defend hack from the attacks made from midnite and destro etc


/To little to do Archie.  




 
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Andiangelsla...
Andiangelslayer


Disgraceful
Famous Hero
posted December 13, 2002 01:59 PM

Tosssssssssssssssss...

You didnt add the most important fact that makes hack a lot better than Taz: Hack is a magic hero killer, the allround talent that deals with both a strong magic and strong might opponent.
Tazar will stand there with his useless defense vs big spells.

Next thing is: you may take less damage from monsters that are faster than your army, BUT: the comp is scared from the retal, a example:
you fight a pack goldies, splitted up in 6 times 2, you yourself amongst other army got a stack of lets say 14 wyvern. Now, the goldis may see this as good food prolly if your hero has big defense but no attack and attack them rather than your gnolls or lizards.
If you got hack with huge damage they will stay far away from those wyvern coz the retal may kill a goldi.
Now dont even think about prooving this wrong, its just a aexample to show the basically thought, i knot it may not work always like this

Next: when both heroes got a ballista and are offered the skill you will be very happy to take it with hack, for taz its useless. A ballista on hack can help a ton first 2 weeks.

Only advantage of Taz: he can get water, but i think Hack gets better skills offered in total sum.

Conclusion: Hack is the all arounder that never will fail you, he beats Tazar easy and is the Nummero Uno

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notmytohhandle
notmytohhandle


Known Hero
posted December 13, 2002 02:15 PM

Quote:
Tosssssssssssssssss...

You didnt add the most important fact that makes hack a lot better than Taz: Hack is a magic hero killer, the allround talent that deals with both a strong magic and strong might opponent.
Tazar will stand there with his useless defense vs big spells.

Next thing is: you may take less damage from monsters that are faster than your army, BUT: the comp is scared from the retal, a example:
you fight a pack goldies, splitted up in 6 times 2, you yourself amongst other army got a stack of lets say 14 wyvern. Now, the goldis may see this as good food prolly if your hero has big defense but no attack and attack them rather than your gnolls or lizards.
If you got hack with huge damage they will stay far away from those wyvern coz the retal may kill a goldi.
Now dont even think about prooving this wrong, its just a aexample to show the basically thought, i knot it may not work always like this

Next: when both heroes got a ballista and are offered the skill you will be very happy to take it with hack, for taz its useless. A ballista on hack can help a ton first 2 weeks.

Only advantage of Taz: he can get water, but i think Hack gets better skills offered in total sum.

Conclusion: Hack is the all arounder that never will fail you, he beats Tazar easy and is the Nummero Uno



Hehehe i dident expect u to go with anything else than above, german tossers always seem to think like me, sigh!

Glad to hear it tho.

Alltho i wouldent pick artillery if someone put a gun to my head (or maybe a legion of dwarvs on map). thats 2 lvls b4 it even pays off, that could be advanced earth or logs with some luck, but u r right, even without the skill its to great use for hack and none to taz.

Ya hack is definettly better vs magic heroes, good point. i wanted prove that he could beat up tazar in main battle since everyone seems to think tazar is suppperior vs hack in final combat for some reason.

i am sure we will hear some reasons soon enough ..


/Archie
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bjorn190
bjorn190


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
posted December 13, 2002 02:40 PM

Hack and taz vs the magic hero:
Uhm.. if your opp takes magic hero he is a foo and will lose either way.


Hack and taz vs the map:
Taz takes topes easier, and thats the only thing thats hard basically. Against map I would like orrin better if topes are excluded. Also, taz leaves room for mistakes (and morale) If a bad stack gets morale vs hack he takes huge damage. Taz just wipes it off.


Hack and taz in end game:
Hack needs initiative, but itīs only 50% chance that he gets it. He has no defence vs a first strike, so thereīs always a 50% chance that he will be totally bummed out. Armourer beats offence without spells (I think)

Hack and Taz psycholigically:
If u see opp has hack, u know he is a crazy german or some other type of "I kik as" personality, so you know heīs gonna come on strong. He gives away his style of play to you. If you see someone with Taz, you know u have to do something special to beat that.. and the pressure is on *u*.


Out of game factors:
Taz has some bad voodoo, and hack is a tranny. Easy choice.

Ress means more for taz, implo means more for taz. He is versatile, whilst hack can use spells but is the most might hero in the game.

Conclusion:
Hack loses to Taz, because Hacks forte is loads of damage, wich Taz counters with being more powerful the more damage he receivs. With hack, the speciality works against him.

If you deal 100 damage to taz, he soaks up 30. If you deal 200, he soaks 60. Thats double power.
70 or 140? You lose 30 damage from the special. The bigger they are the harder they fall. The 70 extra that Hack got in, he pays for with the extra 100 he takes from not having defence.

damage to taz: (damage x modifier(att-def) + damage x 0.6)x 0.7    [Hacks bonus is worth less the more attack he has. He has alot of attack, and screws himself more and more the higher the att-def differance is]

damage to hack: (damage x modifier(att-def)  [Nothing slows down the damage here. The att/def differace is pure. The higher the attack of hack, the more Taz wins.


Meanwhile Taz pounds Hack like a baby.. no defence means you have no defence. Hack takes it almost as hard as he deals it, and when thereīs an armourer tax on whatever he deals but not on what he takes, he ends up losing it. Itīs echonomix, heroes style.

And Hack just went belly up.


Since this has all been a huge toss, I will just say what I think:

Offence speciality is hampered compared to armourer special. Thats why Taz wins. Itīs a programming thing.



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notmytohhandle
notmytohhandle


Known Hero
posted December 13, 2002 02:45 PM

mm the utope thing i agree on during cirtain circumstances, but not always. with a power stack hack is better..

Anyways the calculations u got is not correct try em and u will c

/Archie
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bjorn190
bjorn190


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
posted December 13, 2002 02:53 PM

Quote:
mm the utope thing i agree on during cirtain circumstances, but not always. with a power stack hack is better..

Anyways the calculations u got is not correct try em and u will c

/Archie


I think thats because they had almost the same Att-def. That gives Hack the win. He only loses when their attack is higher than their defence, wich is often true in a real game, since you buy attack for 1000 instead of defence when you have the chance. Also, I thought that taz gets alot of def and hack alot of att? Maybe that was wrong.

The thing is, when Att=def the offence special is at its peak of power, and when Att>>def its almost insignificant.

So in the event that Att=def (approx) Im sure hack would win. But in a game Att will be larger than def because of players choice of att over def when they buy stats and equip arts.


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notmytohhandle
notmytohhandle


Known Hero
posted December 13, 2002 03:07 PM

Yes u are right about that bjorn.

Still in a real game u have random artifacts (shield or sword canot pick those) and u can choose att/or defense rating at most boost location.

so i think that leaving all arts and boost locations out makes it an intersting comparison. alltho i c yr point in most players choosing attack rating on boost locations.

And also about the only thing thats hard on map is the utope ? if u really think that either u are not pushing yrself hard enough or your opponents gives u to much time to wait hitting those tough battles like hives and conservatories.

Also to add in the equation is the fact that most players use 1 power stack and fooder technique (since usually a dwelling and its very effective), this is in my opinon why hack rules. taz power stacks need to be alot bigger to wipe out those 20 griffins in each stack of conservatory than hacks power stack need to be. chances are taz runs out of fooder and the stacks of griffon surrounds him since he cant finsh the stacks of fast enough to keep the griffons away with fooder units.

/Archie

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Xarfax111
Xarfax111


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
posted December 13, 2002 03:54 PM

Hi,

i dunno which hero is better..but some arguments are still missing:

The test arch made is not really a real endfight situation. I think in about 80% of endfights the main goal of the players is to eliminate the Lvl7 creatures stack. So u would be able to use Attack speciality with your Lvl7 1 time per round, whilst u can use the defense speciality about on your Lvl7 about 4-7 times per round. So the damage ratio is even higher then calculated in this theoretical Lvl7 against Lvl7 fight.

To the map cleaning situation i would like to add that if u give tazar 2 Wyvern and a first aid tent he can clean out almost the same as hack can do and hes certainly better against shooters and creatures that are faster then your own.

..just my 2 and a half cents.

Xarfax1

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notmytohhandle
notmytohhandle


Known Hero
posted December 13, 2002 04:11 PM

Quote:
Hi,

i dunno which hero is better..but some arguments are still missing:

The test arch made is not really a real endfight situation. I think in about 80% of endfights the main goal of the players is to eliminate the Lvl7 creatures stack. So u would be able to use Attack speciality with your Lvl7 1 time per round, whilst u can use the defense speciality about on your Lvl7 about 4-7 times per round. So the damage ratio is even higher then calculated in this theoretical Lvl7 against Lvl7 fight.

To the map cleaning situation i would like to add that if u give tazar 2 Wyvern and a first aid tent he can clean out almost the same as hack can do and hes certainly better against shooters and creatures that are faster then your own.

..just my 2 and a half cents.

Xarfax1



Hmm i am not sure i am understanding yr point with only using attack speciality once per round whilst u can use defensive speciality 4-7 times per round.

If u use defensive speciality 4-7 times per round, surely something is used attacking that creature 4-7 times per round also using offense speciality (i could be missing yr point completely)?

/Archie



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tewilligar
tewilligar


Famous Hero
Just another willigar
posted December 13, 2002 05:17 PM

big mistake

this toss is over

we all know(with the exception of you foo's )that eagle eye heroes win every time. no exceptions.
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Xarfax111
Xarfax111


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
posted December 13, 2002 08:27 PM

[quote(i could be missing yr point completely)?

/Archie




Yes unfortunately u do.. i try to eplain it simple.

The thing that really counts is the LvL7 in the endfight (more or less).

So if u look only onto this stack u see that it can only attack once, but can be attacked about 7 time per round (if u did somethin really stupid ).

So this stack can only take benefit damage with this one strike concerninng attack special, but can about take benefit from defense special about up to 7 times.

Hope u can understand me now .

Or explain it even more simple..

in endfight most people try to attack and erase your lvl7. If u r unlucky they will be able to attack your 7 Lvl7 times. Now u add the damage your Lvl7 will take less due to the defense special.

Now u compare this with the additional damage ull get with your additional attack.

Xarfax1

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Andiangelsla...
Andiangelslayer


Disgraceful
Famous Hero
posted December 13, 2002 09:19 PM

totally wrong xar, Hacks other units attack Taz L7 too - or the L7 of the other guy...and destroy them fast.
I cant see the point lol

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Motorschaaf
Motorschaaf


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
posted December 13, 2002 09:33 PM

very simple :
if i have hack - i choose him
if i have taz - i choose him
if i have both - depends on situation/map/opponent

Simpleschaaf

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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted December 13, 2002 10:36 PM

With a full army and exact same stats i will have to go with tazar.
Offense can only be effective with the meele.
Other wise you need to also get Archery to make his whole army effective.
Therefore when the final battle first starts, they can either wait or attack imediately which means that the defense is in an vulnerable state.
sure he has 20% armourer which means Taz will be able to find a solution on countering Hacks offensive attack.

If Hack decides to go all out & attack with mass haste he better hope he kills almost everyone because Taz will usually have the earth skill to slow them down.
Then a whole 2 round wave attack will counter Hacks wave of offensive.

Taz my hero go buddy
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notmytohhandle
notmytohhandle


Known Hero
posted December 13, 2002 11:55 PM

Quote:
[quote(i could be missing yr point completely)?

/Archie




Yes unfortunately u do.. i try to eplain it simple.

The thing that really counts is the LvL7 in the endfight (more or less).

So if u look only onto this stack u see that it can only attack once, but can be attacked about 7 time per round (if u did somethin really stupid ).

So this stack can only take benefit damage with this one strike concerninng attack special, but can about take benefit from defense special about up to 7 times.

Hope u can understand me now .

Or explain it even more simple..

in endfight most people try to attack and erase your lvl7. If u r unlucky they will be able to attack your 7 Lvl7 times. Now u add the damage your Lvl7 will take less due to the defense special.

Now u compare this with the additional damage ull get with your additional attack.

Xarfax1



Ummm but lets say u r unlucky and your angel gets hited 7 times in round 1 in endfight.

for all the times yr angel gets hit, there must be one of my units hitting(fact), thise means forevery time u use armour speciality i as the hitting players use my offense speciality.

/Archie

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Mad_Unicorn
Mad_Unicorn


Famous Hero
I am a mean person shame on me
posted December 21, 2002 12:04 PM

Taz over hack any day of the week

Simple_Unicorn

but seriously as far as map taz is the best as he suffers the least losses in the beginning where as sure hack takes em out fast but loses alot in doin so.

but if u want a dream hero mephala will beat hack easy aswell

Defense is best
Offense is offensive........

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notmytohhandle
notmytohhandle


Known Hero
posted December 21, 2002 02:06 PM

Quote:
Taz over hack any day of the week

Simple_Unicorn

but seriously as far as map taz is the best as he suffers the least losses in the beginning where as sure hack takes em out fast but loses alot in doin so.

but if u want a dream hero mephala will beat hack easy aswell

Defense is best
Offense is offensive........


Ack Ack Ack god save u madman

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Bad_Boxa
Bad_Boxa


Adventuring Hero
Bulgarian Azure Dragon
posted February 11, 2003 02:24 AM

Tazar!!!

Only 1 Hack is losser!!!

aka.Boxa

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Kuma
Kuma


Promising
Supreme Hero
u can type so much text in her
posted February 11, 2003 11:42 AM
Edited By: Kuma on 11 Feb 2003

Meph any day here.
Day 8 give her the unies (wif tent) and u can do 'a Tim': build up a 2nd hero wif cents and grands and a 3rd hero running close to the 2nd wif droids a few dwarves and pegs.

Oh yeah did I mention I like rdm XL's?


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People used to call me crazy, but now that I'm rich I am excentric.

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sos
sos


Known Hero
posted February 12, 2003 07:46 AM

Ofense vs Armorer or Hack vs Taz

I have discussed this many times now, but what the heck

Lets assume expert skill (30% offense, 15% armorer)
With 0 A/D we have effevtive damage = (1+0.3)*0.75 = 1.105 or 10.5% in Hack's favour.

Offense always ADDS a bonus to your damage equal to a percentage to your BASE damage. This bonus is reduced by negative A/D, but not increased by positive A/D. Example:
2 AA deal a base damage of 100.
With 0 A/D the offense bonus is 30 and the total damage is 130, i.e. you deal 30% more damage with offense;
with +20 A/D the bonus is again 30 and the total damage is 230, so you deal only 15% more damage with offense this time;
with -20 A/D the bonus is only 15 and the total damage is 65, so you deal again 30% more damage with offense.
Conclusion: offense is best used if the A/D is 0 or negative (then offense increases your damage with 30%). When the A/D is positive the offense bonus stays the same while your bonus without offense increases, the higher the A/D the less important offense becomes. That's why I have always said that the offense specialty is much more usefull for Gundula than for Hack.

Now armorer MULTIPLIES the EFFECTIVE damage that you receive. That means that you always get 15% damage reduction no matter what. And this reduction applies to the effective damage, so it takes into account A/D, offense, lucky strike, creature hatread bonuses, etc. So if Hack deals a lucky strike the offense bonus will stay the same while the total damage about doubles, so in effect the offense skill is halved for lucky strikes. Taz, on the other hand, will reduce the total damage that he receives as always. So for 0 A/D Hack's AA lucky strike will deal 100 (base) + 100 (luck) + 30 (offense) = 230 total damage or offense skill increased the damage with only 15%. Now if Taz receives this damage it will be reduced by 15% to 230 * 0.85 = 195.5.
Conclusion: armorer will always reduce the offective damage that you would receive by 15%. The net damage reduction depends on many factors, but the relative damage reduction is always the same.

Of couse everyone knows that offense doesn't help shooters, but armorrer decreases all damage.

In a real fight the A/D can vary a lot depending on the heroes primary skills and the fighting stacks. So for some attacks it will be positive (favoring armorrer), for some negative (favoring offense). It's very hard to conclude which one is better, since it depends on so many things.


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