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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Secondary magic schools
Thread: Secondary magic schools This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted October 17, 2018 11:29 AM

Quote:
Tactics is a must-have


Why? Because you like it? Well, I don't like it, therefore it's not a must-have. See how that works?

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted October 17, 2018 12:06 PM

Tactics is a must-have because while the reorganisation of your troops is tedious (why did they let the units move, instead of teleporting them during the reposition phase?), it does provide the player with the option to set troops such that you can reach the enemy units in the first turn as well as making sure that your own Ranged units can't be reached during the enemies' first turn. Setting up a battle line can significantly impact the battle outcome, if not just in the form of reducing or mitigating losses that would otherwise be unavoidable without Tactics.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted October 17, 2018 12:17 PM
Edited by monere at 12:19, 17 Oct 2018.

Maurice, I know what tactics does and even if it would - hypothetically - be the best skill ever in the entire history of HoMM I would still hate it because of the tediousness, as you call it.

If you're fighting 2-3 times a day and you have to re-arrange your troops before each battle.... I'd rather go play soccer outdoors.

Good point about teleporting, though. I'm gonna keep this bit of info in mind for the game I'm creating

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 17, 2018 01:11 PM

I also wish Tactics was faster/easier to use. Teleporting units or creating and saving some "templates" you have used before and make them quickly selectable again would be nice.
It's nice to protect ranged units, but it's not always a good idea, since area spells like Chain Lightning and Berserk and creature abilities such as dragons/Phoenix breath, Hydra and Magic Elementals attack and Magogs and Liches can hit more units. So like everything else in Heroes it depends...

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phe
phe


Famous Hero
Life and Freedom
posted October 17, 2018 01:38 PM

Tactics should be disabled as secondary skill but all heroes should have basic tactics equivalent savable from battle to battle without each other cancellation...

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 17, 2018 01:39 PM

Ah, come on. You can "sort" your troops, so that the work in Tactics is minimal.

It also helps, by the way, to have a second hero escorting your main, because it gives the opportunity to offload units before a battle you know would suffer - or simply to spread your units thinner.

Probably too much work as well, though.

Sometimes I wonder whether some people wouldn't be better off watching a gameplay video - double speed, of course. So much less work involved.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 17, 2018 01:48 PM

@JollyJoker Have you seen how units will sometimes move almost around the entire battlefield just to get by an obstacle, it sometimes takes a lot of time and is quite stupid to watch.
I'd much rather play than watch games though, just wish Tactics was smarter.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 17, 2018 02:01 PM

It's not so bad on highest unit marching speed - and if you've sorted your troops, so that you've minimal work.

I tend to think, if you shy away from things like that the game already has become too much of a routine to be still considered fun.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 17, 2018 03:19 PM

Don't get me wrong, Tactics is a great skill and I will choose it from time to time, (especially on slower factions like Stronghold, Cove and Fortress) but as Maurice said, it is tedious to use.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 17, 2018 03:46 PM

Well, don't get ME wrong either: in my opinion the game - each game, actually - is fun, as long as things are realy TIGHT, and that's true for the battlefield as well. I mean, this game has an extra battlefield map with full tactical control (unlike other games), and if you can autocombat your way through, then half of the game is on auto.

So "tight" means, you should need all the "resources" there are, no matter what, and if you CAN miss a skill like that because it's too fiddly to put up with, then the game CANNOT be THAT tight anymore.

It's not that different with spellcasting. In an easy fight, you won't waste time with additional spellcasting (and mana-wasting), but finish things asap, but once in a while you need to cast, and maybe cast a lot.

Same with Tactics: easy fight - don't start arranging your troops, just get on with it. It's a few seconds more in that case than without tactics, since you have to click start and the game takes a few seconds until it's ready for you, but there are those situation when Tactics make all the difference.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted October 17, 2018 06:07 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 18:09, 17 Oct 2018.

View Air is lovely. I'd literally get air magic just for View Air.

Fortunately it also has a lot of other gamebreakers (Haste/DD/Fly).

In the campaigns Air magic, if you can get all the spells, is definitively the best school. Gives you amazing mobility both on adventure map (DD, Fly) and battlefield (Haste), the ability to see enemies, the ability to scout for joiners (if you have diplomacy), the best farming spell in the game bar armageddon (chain) and a pretty nice cost-effective single target spell (Lightning). Destroy Undead is pretty nice in some campaigns.

Also the best summon elemental spell (since it's the fastest) but that's obviously not very important. It does, however, make "impossible" possible with a ridiculous 100+ elemental stack and resurrection to restore your troops before victory - in the campaign OFC


as for tactics, HD mod/HotA makes it way more manageable since you can point at the troop you want rather than cycling through your units.

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Otuken
Otuken


Known Hero
posted October 17, 2018 06:17 PM

Earth/Air is must regardless of starting town. Water is optional. Fire is waste of slot.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 17, 2018 07:58 PM

Umm ... no.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 17, 2018 08:03 PM

He is right, both multi player and decent map, air and earth are a must. Water and fire are a waste, so the might heroes having higher probabilities for water should handle that carefully.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 17, 2018 08:37 PM

If you were right the game was utter crap.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 17, 2018 08:57 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 21:16, 17 Oct 2018.

It's a matter of equilibrium. Some spells are deadly when mass used, others can help in their basic expertise. There is no need of 4 equal magic schools to make a game great, and H3 is a perfect example.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 17, 2018 10:18 PM

Thankfully it's not.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted October 18, 2018 09:04 AM
Edited by Elvin at 09:08, 18 Oct 2018.

Water is not as powerful as air/earth but I used to love it nonetheless. That said, I used to mostly prefer magic heroes with 3 magic schools. Highly enjoyable gameplay. I would pick fire every now and then, especially if I saw curse and berserk. I would like fire better if fireball and inferno were more potent. A pity most of its spells are poor or situational.

PS I would always favour Gelare over Grindan. Always found a quaranteed mass slow a bit too cheesy
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 18, 2018 10:51 AM

I think, this is all irrelevant, because you don't get the spells by picking the schools you like.

That is, you pick the schools according to the spells you get, and, generally spoken, it depends on what spells will be "available" on the map for you to get.

Sure, if you play an XL map with many towns and things (against the AI) you'll probably end up with every spell there is - but then it won't matter anyway; you'll go for Earth and Air for the movement stuff, both on and off the battlefield, and that's basically all you need, but depending on the town you play you may have trouble getting Air and instead have picked something else along the line.

There are, for THAT matter, maps that will let you win only because of some OTHER spell. If I'm not wrong, in Lord of War your Barbarian is taught Water (usually not available to them) and can beat the vastly superior opponents only by Cloning his Behemoths. The author of that map did another one for Fortress and I can remember winning at one point only via Berserk spamming, which is a nasty spell, if you are on the receiving end.

PvP maps tend to be played on smaller maps and finish fast, and you are somewhat dependant on what spells you actually get. If you don't get the spells, you don't need the skills either.

Lastly - Haste and Slow should have been balanced a long, long time ago. We had this discussion in some other thread.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted October 18, 2018 11:39 AM

JollyJoker said:
Thankfully it's not.


It is. H3 has marked not only one generation of gamers and people can criticize this or that aspect, a game is a great one when so many sunk so many hours in.
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Even Italian restaurants seemed to betray me. -Neraus

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