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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Secondary magic schools
Thread: Secondary magic schools This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted October 19, 2018 02:24 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 14:27, 19 Oct 2018.

Lth3 said:
single player games expire over time - when there is no more challenge


Of course! That's when you move to a different game.

Once I finish my "all impossible" playthrough of HoMM3, I will cease playing it. Since there is nothing more challenging to do, I'll probably never return to it.

I choose that over multiplayer because multiplaer games always degenerate into cookie cutters, "metagames" and such, where you have to play in a very specific way or you will lose to a competent player.

For instance, a lot of people play Jeebus. It has been years since I've done competitive multiplayer in Homm3, but IIRC that map was always about the early break and creature banks. In fact, creature banks hunting seem "meta" on every map where you can accumulate angels and/or wyverns.

Playing vs. the AI may be schematic, but at least you're not forced to do the same thing every game.

While I'm not anti-multiplayer (as a matter of fact I used to be a pretty dedicated online player years ago), but the thing is, you're always crammed into some sort of cookie cutter method of playing and all that's left - after a while - is to attempt the same template over and over, filling the blanks (randomness) with your own experience accumulated over the years. And after hundreds of games, a person suddenly comes to a conclusion that getting better on w1 break of Jeebus took him way more effort than it was worth it. For the time sunk into it, I could finish a dozen of games, and there's literally hundreds of amazing games out there to play.

Sorry for a bit of an off topic post.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted October 19, 2018 03:02 PM

@AncientDruids

H6 solution was already good enough, mass spell bonus give weaker effect to all and scale with spellpower. If you want full bonus you can just cast the basic spell. You could even make mass 4x4 or 5x5 area but I've tried it and it's not nearly as satisfying. Also, in a game like heroes I don't think playing around with speed is a good idea. Often +1 tile is enough to give an overwhelming advantage and +2 is plain nuts. Especially if we're talking en masse.

@Lth3

Pretty much Heroes has always been about making the best out of what you get. We don't need the game to become too restrictive, just allow for unconventional strategies to become more viable. Otherwise we end up with cookie cutter builds and the appeal dies out before too long.

That was especially true for H5. All those wonderful skillwheel combos and delicious counters? Pointless, in a real game you'll stick with the few essential skills simply because they are solid and always work. If you play single, you will probably not figure out half of the game's potential, simply because anything will work against the AI. And if you don't play some form of arena/duel map, you may be led to believe that final fights are one-sided 80% of the time. Some people were expert at navigating the map which gave them an overwhelming edge in the final battle that they didn't develop their tactical skills as much. It's always a matter of perspective and there is a lot more to the game than combat and town management. As long as you can grasp the full picture, you will have the advantage.

@Doom

I hate map specialist play. I was glad that toh player profiles reported not only results but also maps played and how many times. If your opponent specializes in a map he has played dozens of times, it is pretty hopeless. Some people had played hourglass 100 times and could clear its ridiculous garrison in week 3, you just can't do that when playing blind. I always preferred maps where you can face your opponent around week 4-5, neither too long, nor particularly unfair to specific factions.
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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted October 19, 2018 10:38 PM
Edited by Lth3 at 22:39, 19 Oct 2018.

Doomforge said:
Lth3 said:
single player games expire over time - when there is no more challenge


Of course! That's when you move to a different game.

Once I finish my "all impossible" playthrough of HoMM3, I will cease playing it. Since there is nothing more challenging to do, I'll probably never return to it.

I choose that over multiplayer because multiplaer games always degenerate into cookie cutters, "metagames" and such, where you have to play in a very specific way or you will lose to a competent player.

For instance, a lot of people play Jeebus. It has been years since I've done competitive multiplayer in Homm3, but IIRC that map was always about the early break and creature banks. In fact, creature banks hunting seem "meta" on every map where you can accumulate angels and/or wyverns.

Playing vs. the AI may be schematic, but at least you're not forced to do the same thing every game.

While I'm not anti-multiplayer (as a matter of fact I used to be a pretty dedicated online player years ago), but the thing is, you're always crammed into some sort of cookie cutter method of playing and all that's left - after a while - is to attempt the same template over and over, filling the blanks (randomness) with your own experience accumulated over the years. And after hundreds of games, a person suddenly comes to a conclusion that getting better on w1 break of Jeebus took him way more effort than it was worth it. For the time sunk into it, I could finish a dozen of games, and there's literally hundreds of amazing games out there to play.

Sorry for a bit of an off topic post.


i'm not a fan of Jebus either, and play it very rarely

there are certain templates for certain types of play. Jebus is a very particular template indeed

from the things you write i would assume poorer templates is the way to go for you - slower start and more pace as time comes

although some templates have less creature banks than others - avoiding them completely is not likely possible. if you hate them that much you could always agree on a set of rules beforehand. i myself would gladly agree to rules of playing without creature banks, if you so prefer

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted October 20, 2018 01:27 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 07:07, 21 Oct 2018.

Quote:

Once I finish my "all impossible" playthrough of HoMM3, I will cease playing it. Since there is nothing more challenging to do, I'll probably never return to it.


You know there are hundreds of fanmade maps which are much more difficult and just as elaborate as the official campaigns, right?

Right?
...

Quote:
I choose that over multiplayer because multiplaer games always degenerate into cookie cutters, "metagames" and such, where you have to play in a very specific way or you will lose to a competent player.


In h3 that is so but nothing stops other games with better multiplayer design having a more varied metagame.

All current Heroes games have a "Lose as little as possible" approach to multiplayer, which is why I reccomended changing some core mechanics for the next game (Such as army maintenance which would kill the strategy of "Just get many creatures and don't lose any")
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 21, 2018 10:07 AM

Army maintenance would also solve diplomacy abuses.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted October 21, 2018 10:25 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 10:26, 21 Oct 2018.

NimoStar said:

You know there are hundreds of fanmade maps which are much more difficult and just as elaborate as the official campaigns, right?

Right?
...


Sure I do. However, in addition to gameplay, I also enjoy plot/lore/atmosphere that the "official material" brings. Fanmade additions obviously carry no canon plot and lore, and thus are less interesting to me. Also, people like to go overboard and make maps specifically tailored to AI abuse, calling it difficult. Well, in a way, they are, but a "metagame" build around abusing the stupidity of AI is just as bad as online cookie cutters in my book.

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