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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: Advanced Classes Mod
Thread: Advanced Classes Mod This thread is 14 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 · «PREV / NEXT»
RerryR
RerryR


Promising
Famous Hero
Researching Magic
posted December 05, 2019 07:04 PM
Edited by RerryR at 21:46, 05 Dec 2019.

Orc said:

Edit: also why no one told me about this mod??????????

We will make sure to put you on our Emailing list for the next mod

Orc said:

.... im overwhelmed.
thanks,



So Orc, in general, take it easy with the mod at the beginning, it is a huge mod project with many many little changes, often seasoned people are driven away from big project because they dislike one thing and thus condemn the whole project. So I appreciate people who discuss changes and make suggestions, often this helps the whole community.

So a few notations on how this mod is intended to play:
Use 8 or 10 secondary skills with your hero and don't activate options that grant you more skills, this will totally destroy the class system and the idea behind it. Activate the appropriate 10-Skills option in the menu at map start, if need be.  
Don't blindly set the difficulty to Impossible at map start and wonder why you get stomped by the computer player. Read the difficulty-readme to see what each option does. Learn to use the Progressive Difficulty options, these options alone are so much win if used correctly! Also learn how to change difficutly during gaming (Rightclick System Icon).
Rightclick Hero portrait to get information about your class points progress during leveling. Use Rightclick and CTRL+Rightlick on ATT/DEF/SP/K to get information on classes perks and other stuff.
Best decide early which class your hero should become.
Try to understand how the magic system works. ALL combat spells now scale with your Magic Strenght (MS). MS is a combination of your Spell Power + Magic Secondary skills. Check readme for information on scaling.
Best played and XL and bigger random maps.


Now your questions:

Orc said:
Slow Decreases speed of enemy by 30/30/30/20%.

Most of spells now have a scaling where the expert rank is lower then the advanced and basic rank. This makes sense imo because the "mass" version of spells is so much better. Also, all spells start at a lower value because they are boosted by your MS, so its more like 20%+MS%.
This ensures that only the mage class can reach good and effective spells. Warrior hero spells will be significantly weaker when cast.


Orc said:
they are actually mods in Era II and I can enable them with mod manager.
why isnt this clearly stated in OP?
also, I downloaded like half of them a year ago or so LOL (the extra spell cast mod)

Yes this is on big snowing ERA mod, I will add a better description in OP. You dont need any other of my "Enhanced Magic Skills" mods, deactivate all please.

Orc said:
the BadLuck2 Mod, perhaps you can buff devil special ability? like give him -2 luck (same as barons the lvl 8)

Yes I will think about it. Bad Luck mod is integrated and not needed.
Luck scaling is as follows (if this was your question):

Orginal H3:
Double Base Damage
Positive 4.2%
Good 8.3%
Excellent 12.5%

AC Mod:
(150% of total damage)
+1: 4%
+2: 7%
+3: 10%
+4: 12,5%
+5: 15%
each Luck >5 adds +10% damage to Luck strike (150% +X%)

Orc said:
Reworked. Increases attack and defence by 1+1 per 7 levels, health by 9% + +1% per hero level, damage by 1 per 10 levels, levels for damage calculation are increased by 3 for each specialised creature level over 1.
Hold it there! I disagree. there is already such specialist script and it was a failure imo.

   
Yes I agree that the specialist mod from WoG is busted, thats why I made a new one! You will find that the new script much less OP. But I think we all agree that there is a need for such an "Creature Specialist" mod! Sorry but I can't play the lame original H3 creature heroes, they are so boring.

Orc said:
what happens if I accidentally turned on 30% resistance script and also the 25% resistance script?

Most likely nothing because I disabled it and made an own one.  


Orc said:
I hope your new AI never use bersekr on me.I never used berserk on him.
also forgetfulness change is imba. its like berserk which I never used -_-!

AI only starts using Berserk if you cheat and learn more then 10 secondary skills
No honestly, Berserk spell is kinda like a cheat, especially with double cast, everybody is free on how to handle that with his own playstyle.


Orc said:
also, why is first aid tent HP not buffed like ballista and amo?

You need Ballistics skill for that. Also, First Aid is now one of the strongest secondary skills ingame. Rampart commander increases the life of First and Tent and repairs it after battle.

Orc said:
Edit: I must admit Sylvia specialty fits her picture.
an Ex-pirate is now an honorable Knight

We think so too! Also Nobility skill is so much better then Navigation, don't you agree?

Orc said:
while you are at it, could you please tell us which Era II scripts will be disabled while this is on?

Please open the AC Mod/Data/s folder and look for Disabled WoG options script. There you can figure it out. In general, all options that interfere badly with this mod are disabled, but overall not that many, most will work.






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Diacris
Diacris

Tavern Dweller
posted December 05, 2019 09:51 PM
Edited by Diacris at 21:54, 05 Dec 2019.

I've been enjoying the mod before. Everywhere was something new to learn and unique appealing features regardless of the class you decide to become. Pretty complex mod with a lot of implementation whichh is hard to digest in just one match.

With this update you come up with even more interesting stuff, bug fixes, new implementations, features, and a skill interface for creatures.

I've been fooling around for a month to learn how to ERM by tweaking stuff and I must say it's quite difficult. Your dedication to heroes 3 WOG and this mod is impressive.

Overall, the theme is well maintained and the mod isn't too exaggerated nor unbalanced.

Well done! You've overdelivered once again.

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Orc
Orc


Famous Hero
posted December 05, 2019 10:48 PM
Edited by Orc at 22:49, 05 Dec 2019.

Wait,
now all primary stats are cool... except knowledge??

unliss there was something I am yet to comprehend about having to use lots of mana and so only heroes with high knowledge will prevail?

RerryR said:


So Orc, in general, take it easy with the mod at the beginning, it is a huge mod project with many many little changes, often seasoned people are driven away from big project because they dislike one thing and thus condemn the whole project. So I appreciate people who discuss changes and make suggestions, often this helps the whole community.


Thats why I never played Era II when I did not realize I can disable commanders. I think thats might also be the reason why HotA team dont want to merge with wog (they can play hota with all options off if they wanted).

RerryR said:

So a few notations on how this mod is intended to play:
Use 8 or 10 secondary skills with your hero and don't activate options that grant you more skills, this will totally destroy the class system and the idea behind it. Activate the appropriate 10-Skills option in the menu at map start, if need be.



why? I noticed that 28 skill system is a bit imperfect and isnt much better than 8 skills becuz with 8 skills, hero can learn his best skills faster. while with 28 skills, he will always have 1 offer to upgrade, while with 8 skills one you have them all, you have 2 offered to upgrade per level.  

maybe this is off topic, but I think that offering 2 secondary upgrades and 1 new skill would be cool and will work well with your mod


RerryR said:
   
Try to understand how the magic system works. ALL combat spells now scale with your Magic Strenght (MS). MS is a combination of your Spell Power + Magic Secondary skills. Check readme for information on scaling.



ya, I think Ive got good idea about it already since we discussed many of these concepts last year or so. though most of it was theoriritical I never guessed it will become a big reality. even imagining it back then was cool. though there is one missing detail: I thought fire spells would do bonus vs Tent and other war machines? nothing about it is mentioned in OP (except all targets will burn from fire spells for the round) but anyway this is minor point

what I dont fully understand is the implications of class when I master my might skills what would exactly happen other than improved skills (offense armor etc). also, does attack and defense formula work the same or has it changed?


RerryR said:

Yes this is on big snowing ERA mod, I will add a better description in OP. You dont need any other of my "Enhanced Magic Skills" mods, deactivate all please.
Bad Luck mod is integrated and not needed.
Luck scaling is as follows (if this was your question):



so all this I downloaded is for nothing? :S
Edit: meh I think Ill stick with the mods being different so I get to choose which one I want to turn on (if AC is whole package of all those mods it means I have to either take them all or none of them)

HOWEVER: it wasnt made clear in OP that AC package include all those mods. perhaps it should there in a separated folder of drop box and not with all the redundant mods. (so one folder of AC and russian AC, and another folder for all different mods, bad luck2 etc, which are all included in AC anyway, but in the other folder we will be able to download them separately)



RerryR said:

   
Yes I agree that the specialist mod from WoG is busted, thats why I made a new one! You will find that the new script much less OP. But I think we all agree that there is a need for such an "Creature Specialist" mod! Sorry but I can't play the lame original H3 creature heroes, they are so boring.



you didnt tell us what you think of the flat HP bonus? (low creatures will be a little tanky and useful, but high lvl ones wont be broken)
because if you add %, high level guys will benifit a lot more (dread knight growth is 480 HP/week, while wolf riders is 180, while lizards and gogs are around 250), so a flat bonus will benifit useless creatures more, and benifit imba creatures less (not talking about galthran or vampires)




RerryR said:

AI only starts using Berserk if you cheat and learn more then 10 secondary skills
No honestly, Berserk spell is kinda like a cheat, especially with double cast, everybody is free on how to handle that with his own playstyle.


I hope you are kidding, but then even if you are, forgetfullness is kind of berserk too :|

RerryR said:

You need Ballistics skill for that. Also, First Aid is now one of the strongest secondary skills ingame. Rampart commander increases the life of First and Tent and repairs it after battle.



but I always play with commanders disabled :|

RerryR said:

We think so too! Also Nobility skill is so much better then Navigation, don't you agree?

well I never play water maps so...




Diacris said:


Well done! You've overdelivered once again.



again? I must have missed the first delivery. which one are you refering to?

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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted December 05, 2019 10:56 PM

Quote:
dont get me wrong im not fan of slow spell or anything. Id delete it from the game if it was me lol
the spell itself is cool. The problem is that mass slow is level 1 spell. I tend to agree more and more with those who say that mass slow and haste should be level 3 spells. H4 devs have seen this problem and have remedied it.
____________
Optional signature you may use to appear at bottom of your posts. You may use BB Code in this field, but not HTML.

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portus
portus


Adventuring Hero
posted December 05, 2019 11:28 PM

Slow and Haste are lv3 in this mod, no worries about that!
____________
Ssssshhhhhhhpp!! Ah! (crimson cloud and I'm gone)

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RerryR
RerryR


Promising
Famous Hero
Researching Magic
posted December 06, 2019 10:06 AM
Edited by RerryR at 10:23, 06 Dec 2019.

monere said:
the spell itself is cool. The problem is that mass slow is level 1 spell. I tend to agree more and more with those who say that mass slow and haste should be level 3 spells. H4 devs have seen this problem and have remedied it.

Making it level 3 is at least one hurdle more to take for save and easy creeping.


Orc said:
now all primary stats are cool... except knowledge??
unliss there was something I am yet to comprehend about having to use lots of mana and so only heroes with high knowledge will prevail

I find knowledge still important, especially in early game. Spells are a bit more expensive in AC mod.

Orc said:
why? I noticed that 28 skill system is a bit imperfect and isnt much better than 8 skills becuz with 8 skills, hero can learn his best skills faster. while with 28 skills, he will always have 1 offer to upgrade, while with 8 skills one you have them all, you have 2 offered to upgrade per level.
maybe this is off topic, but I think that offering 2 secondary upgrades and 1 new skill would be cool and will work well with your mod


Of course you can play with 28 skills, I mean its WoG after all, just not sure how the level process will work together with what I scripted and the balance... oh well ... nvm
I mean playing with 28 skills, each with 5 levels to obtain, that makes around 140 levels your hero needs that should be enough even for you haha


Orc said:
ya, I think Ive got good idea about it already since we discussed many of these concepts last year or so. though most of it was theoriritical I never guessed it will become a big reality. even imagining it back then was cool.

Well sometimes what we discuss and what we philosophize about here at Heroes Community becomes reality (at least for ERA lol)

Orc said:
what I dont fully understand is the implications of class when I master my might skills what would exactly happen other than improved skills (offense armor etc). also, does attack and defense formula work the same or has it changed?

Mastering a class activates some perks and lets you learn the class skills at M and GM. thats all and enough I think.
Attack and Defense still work the same. No extra Fire damage vs Warchmines sry.


Orc said:
it wasnt made clear in OP that AC package include all those mods. perhaps it should there in a separated folder of drop box and not with all the redundant mods. (so one folder of AC and russian AC, and another folder for all different mods, bad luck2 etc, which are all included in AC anyway, but in the other folder we will be able to download them separately)

It is written in the readme but people tend to ignore it. Also most mods are heavily changed or improved to work together with new skill levels for example. If there is something you dislike you can try to deactivate it by changing erm code. You seem to have a decent knowledge in that regard. You can of course also disable commanders or stack exp. in this mod, should be no problem.

Orc said:
you didnt tell us what you think of the flat HP bonus? (low creatures will be a little tanky and useful, but high lvl ones wont be broken)
because if you add %, high level guys will benifit a lot more (dread knight growth is 480 HP/week, while wolf riders is 180, while lizards and gogs are around 250), so a flat bonus will benifit useless creatures more, and benifit imba creatures less (not talking about galthran or vampires)

But giving flat HP bonus is not so easy to calculate. It can basically double the HP from Imps and for Dread Knights is only 5% HP increase, thats sounds not so appealing to me. Maybe work with the artifacts that give +flat HP?  


Orc said:
again? I must have missed the first delivery. which one are you refering to?

I think Diacris meant the 1.03 update which was released recently.
Diacris thank you for your words! Actually it was your idea which started my work on the Fire Shield, hope it turned out as you imagined. Let me explain a bit in the F-S mechanic so its not confusing. The damage formula is 10% melee damage + magic damage.
That means when you fight creatures that have no hero in the background the damage will always be 10% and no magic damage. If there is an enemy hero, the damage you receive can significantly be increased depending on Sorcery, Fire Magic and Spell Power, but they only influence the magic damage part.
To protect yourself from that possibly high damage use Resistance, Artifacts or Protection from Fire. Resistance gives Golem type damage reduction or lets you avoid damage completely. If you avoid damage it says Fire Shield deals 0 damage in battle log. Protection from Fire always reduces damage from F-S by 50%! And finally, most creature which have some kind of Fire infinity are most likely immune now (FS deals zero damage).

@all
The new Version 1.032 ,unfortunately, contained a typo in the Luck strike damage calculation, which lets you deal more damage then intended. Thanks @Tupaz
I re-uploaded with a hotfix sorry



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Diacris
Diacris

Tavern Dweller
posted December 06, 2019 03:42 PM

I love the new fire shield. On the other hand, I think the flat is too powerful. The top tier creatures that would usually deal +1k dmg per attack will die hard, while the lower tier ones will have no chance against it. Considering the fire shield procs once the enemy creature retaliates and every time is attacked by other units, I believe that the damage is a killer for weak units.

My math is not perfect, but this formula might be more balanced and relevant throughout the game for every tier:

(25 + MS/4)%  + (20 + MS/2)

PS: Elements Summoning might require a nerf. With a 89 magic strength I could summon around 168 earth elements whereas imposion deals only 2240 damage. The elements can drag retaliations, have 168 * 40 (6720 HP), 672-1344 Damage, can survive for as long as they're in the battle and also grow if they're not killed.

In the end, there's not much incentive to use implosion over earth element even if it's situational.

PSS: Air, Water and Fire Elements are level 3 instead of 5. Idk if that's how you intended them to be, but I gave those a big nerf and divided the number of summoned elements by 5 (A 3rd level spell with 20 mana summonning 168 elements is too much)  

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Orc
Orc


Famous Hero
posted December 06, 2019 05:32 PM
Edited by Orc at 17:55, 06 Dec 2019.

RerryR said:

Actually it was your idea which started my work on the Fire Shield, hope it turned out as you imagined. Let me explain a bit in the F-S mechanic so its not confusing. The damage formula is 10% melee damage + magic damage.
That means when you fight creatures that have no hero in the background the damage will always be 10% and no magic damage. If there is an enemy hero, the damage you receive can significantly be increased depending on Sorcery, Fire Magic and Spell Power, but they only influence the magic damage part.
To protect yourself from that possibly high damage use Resistance, Artifacts or Protection from Fire. Resistance gives Golem type damage reduction or lets you avoid damage completely. If you avoid damage it says Fire Shield deals 0 damage in battle log. Protection from Fire always reduces damage from F-S by 50%! And finally, most creature which have some kind of Fire infinity are most likely immune now (FS deals zero damage).



about fireshield, there is something I liked about it: in vanila h3, if the hero has high armor, he will benifit a lot from fire shield. Efreet sultans on tazar are so strong. I liked that part of FS. (but the spell was still not worth casting) the funny part is that armor benifits FS but spell power not much.


it should be mass spell imo, only then it might be worth casting.


anyway, how does mass spell work? same rules?  I assumed so but then I realised its not explicitly stated in OP.

anyway, time to try this mod in my test map, brb.

Edit: one question about AI script, can it work alone in original Era II? or it only works for ur mod? (maybe if i run the AI he will be more stupid in the original game cuz he is thinking of certain skills)


Edit: hmmm, so I got some error mesages; here is the WGOERMLOG.TXT
-----------------------
ERM syntax Error.
File: erm
Line: 8220
Reason:
"!?FU:"-wrong function index (1...30000).

Save all ERM vars to WOGERMLOG.TXT (may take time)?
-----------------------
-----Context-----
P900/?v296; [Check if Stack Experience is enabled: v296]



********************************************************************************
!?FU(Calc_Battle_Reward);

!!SN:W^Battle_Reward^/0;        .....
-----------------
COMMON VARS
f=0
g=0
h=0
i=0
j=0
k=0
l=0
m=0
n=0
o=0
p=0
q=0
r=0
s=0
t=0
Common flags (1...1000)
flag409=1
flag412=1
flag432=1
flag604=1
flag999=1
flag1000=1
Common v vars (v1...v10000)
v2=1
v6=1
v8=7
v70=15
v71=10
v94=400
v95=2461
v110=400
v111=2461
v141=2
v170=-100
v234=400
v247=2461
v310=400
v311=2461
v320=7
v321=8
v322=9
v323=10
v324=11
v325=18
v326=19
v327=20
v328=21
v329=22
v330=31
v331=38
v332=39
v333=40
v334=60
v335=91
v342=15
v372=3
v373=1
v425=1
v426=4
v427=14
v429=1
v436=255
v460=-1
v461=-1
v462=-1
v463=-1
v464=-1
v465=-1
v466=-1
v467=-1
v468=400
v469=2461
v550=1
v551=2
v552=4
v553=8
v554=16
v555=32
v556=64
v557=128
v558=256
v559=512
v560=1024
v564=7
v565=7
v566=7
v567=7
v568=7
v569=7
v570=7
v571=6
v573=36
v574=72
v575=1
v600=571
v998=25
v999=60
v1200=-1
v1201=-1
v1202=-1
v1203=-1
v1204=-1
v1205=-1
v1206=-1
v1207=-1
v1208=-1
v1209=-1
v1418=1
v2371=1
v2372=2
v2373=3
v2374=4
v2375=5
v2376=6
v2377=7
v2381=1
v2382=2
v2383=3
v2384=4
v2385=5
v2386=6
v2387=7
v2390=1
v2396=1
v3300=-1
v3333=3333
v3341=10932
v3500=7777
v7177=2
Hero's vars (w1...w200)

TRIGGER BASED VARS
Trigger y vars (y-1...y-100)
Trigger e vars (e-1...e-100)

FUNCTION BASED VARS
Parameters x vars (x1...x16)
Local y vars (y1...y100)
Local e vars (e1...e100)

STRING VARS
Common z vars (z1...z1000)
z1="GARRISONS WILL NOW BE PLACED ON THE MAP

NOTE: On large maps, you may notice a delay while loading."
z2="Select your preferred garrison frequency."
z3="No garrisons"
z4="A few garrisons"
z5="Some garrisons"
z6="Tons of garrisons"
z11="Magic Water Mushroom (Visited)"
z12="Magic Fire Mushroom (Not Visited)"
z13="Magic Fire Mushroom (Visited)"
z14="Magic Earth Mushroom (Not Visited)"
z15="Magic Earth Mushroom (Visited)"
z16="Magic Air Mushroom (Not Visited)"
z17="Magic Air Mushroom (Visited)"
z18="Venus's Blessing (Not Visited)"
z19="Venus's Blessing (Visited)"
z20="Valhalla's Fountain (Not Visited)"
z21="Valhalla's Fountain (Visited)"
z142="Mysterious Creature Dwelling"
z143="Mysterious Creature Dwelling (empty)"
z159="Magic Water Mushroom (Not Visited)"
z160="Artificer {(not tired)}"
z163="Artificer {(tired)}"
z164="Artificer {(very tired)}"
z241="Market of Time"
z332="Fliers don't fly, but aren't retaliated against."
z333="Fast creatures are slow, slow ones fast."
z334="Creatures are half-price on day 7 each week."
z335="Heroes create Magic Plains each day."
z336="Creatures attack twice."
z337="Creatures in armies grow by 4 percent each day."
z338="Creature dwellings also sell Boars."
z339="Heroes start at 5th Level."
z340="Artifacts on the map are found in pairs."
z341="Perpetual darkness."
z342="Heroes move twice as far."
z343="Mines change resources each week."
z344="Teaching objects can be revisited each month."
z345="Heroes can have 10 Skills."
z346="7th level creatures upgrade to 8th Level."
z347="Heroes are given an artifact each level."
z348="Rogues ambush the unwary."
z349="Creatures have breath weapons."
z350="Shooters don't shoot, but have more hit points."
z351="Each town has a Grail."
z356="Fishing Well"
z357="Fished-out Well"
z368="This hero gets double the usual gold from treasure chests."
z369="This hero's troops can retaliate multiple times per round."
z370="This hero can cast two spells in the first combat round."
z371="The melee attacks of this hero's troops remove some enemy abilities."
z372="This hero has some rare books."
z373="This hero has some mandrake roots."
z374="This hero has some tulip bulbs."
z375="This hero has some toys."
z376="This hero has some wine."
z377="This hero has some suits of dog armor."
z378="This hero has some three-handed swords."
z379="This hero has some wands that don't work."
z382="Battle Academy"
z383="School of Wizardry"
z400="Junk Merchant"
z402="Alms House"
z403="Arcane Tower"
z404="Adventure Cave"
z429="Advanced University

(Learn basic secondary skills for 2000 gold or improve a basic secondary skill for 3000 gold.)"
z450="Palace of Dreams"
z451="Altar of Transformation"
z452="Altar of Transformation

(Visited)"
z453="Altar of Transformation

(Not Visited)"
z454="Living Skull"
z493="Summoning Stones (Not Visited)"
z494="Summoning Stones (Visited)"
z680="Each town has a Warlord's Banners in front of it."
z698="{Cards of Prophecy}
When entering battle, a card will emerge from the deck. Each card has a different effect.
It will also bestow a +1 bonus to the luck of your army.
Right-click on system options to disable the pre-battle messages that state which card was activated.
"
z729="Mirror of the Home-Way"
z805="Upgraded Water Wheel"
z806="Upgraded Windmill"
z807="Upgraded Water Wheel (Visited)"
z808="Upgraded Windmill (Visited)"
z816="Emerald Tower

(Not Visited)"
z817="Emerald Tower

(Visited)"
Local z vars (z-1...z-10)

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Orc
Orc


Famous Hero
posted December 07, 2019 07:14 AM
Edited by Orc at 07:16, 07 Dec 2019.

you know what I might just re install Era II and see if it works well with AC


Edit: I have an idea for learning.

Instead of learning increase primary skills, why not make learning increase secondary skills?

I must code that now.

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RerryR
RerryR


Promising
Famous Hero
Researching Magic
posted December 07, 2019 09:09 AM
Edited by RerryR at 09:18, 07 Dec 2019.

Diacris said:
I love the new fire shield. On the other hand, I think the flat is too powerful. The top tier creatures that would usually deal +1k dmg per attack will die hard, while the lower tier ones will have no chance against it. Considering the fire shield procs once the enemy creature retaliates and every time is attacked by other units, I believe that the damage is a killer for weak units.

My math is not perfect, but this formula might be more balanced and relevant throughout the game for every tier:

(25 + MS/4)%  + (20 + MS/2)


Let's bring in some numbers.
This is how F-S currently scales:

Flat damage from Fire Magic
Normal: +25
Basic Fire: +50
Advanced Fire: +100
Expert Fire: +150

F-S damage: 10% +10*SP+FireMagic
So the scaling with 10*SP is like Magic Arrow! The flat bonus is higher though, more like Meteor Shower which is also a lvl4 spell.

So a hit with 1000 damage against a hero with 20SP and Expert F-M will return 100+350=450 damage
A hit against Efreet Sultan (without Hero) will return 100 damage

Vanilla F-S would have returned 30% damage so ~300 damage

With your suggestion (25 + MS/4)%  + (20 + MS/2) (I now assume 35MS because you usually have more then you SP is): 33,75%(337)+37,5=374,5 damage.
In case of very high MS(120) the additional damage would never be more then 20+60~100, which is not very much.
We should also consider cases for a hit with 10 and 10k damage.

For 10 damage:
Vanilla: ~3 damage
Current FS: ~443 damage
Your suggestion: ~40 damage

For 10000 damage:
Vanilla: ~3000 damage
Current FS: ~1350 damage
Your suggestion: ~1550 damage

What do you think?

Diacris said:

PS: Elements Summoning might require a nerf. With a 89 magic strength I could summon around 168 earth elements whereas imposion deals only 2240 damage. The elements can drag retaliations, have 168 * 40 (6720 HP), 672-1344 Damage, can survive for as long as they're in the battle and also grow if they're not killed.

In the end, there's not much incentive to use implosion over earth element even if it's situational.

PSS: Air, Water and Fire Elements are level 3 instead of 5. Idk if that's how you intended them to be, but I gave those a big nerf and divided the number of summoned elements by 5 (A 3rd level spell with 20 mana summonning 168 elements is too much)


I totally agree on the summoning part with you. The underlying problem is the formula how summoning spell works. It uses a multiplication which can become quite strong. A system based on total summoned HP would be much easier to balance.
Having Summoning Spells in different Mage Guilt levels is intended, it can be balanced with spell point costs and stats from elementals, it also makes the summoning spell more available.
We will think of a new system for Summoning Spell. Maybe even change the summoned creature in something like: Tank, Ranged, Damage and Support element, with better HP scaling.

Orc said:
Edit: one question about AI script, can it work alone in original Era II? or it only works for ur mod?

In my download folder you will find a mod called Neutral Units Difficulty it has the AI mod included. But I need to update because I discovered a little error, nothing serious.  


Orc said:
you know what I might just re install Era II and see if it works well with AC

AC mod was created on ERA platform, so I would assume it works much better :D

Orc said:

Edit: I have an idea for learning.
Instead of learning increase primary skills, why not make learning increase secondary skills?
I must code that now.

Not an easy task, if you can pull it off share your modification with us but please as ERA II mod ;)





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Diacris
Diacris

Tavern Dweller
posted December 07, 2019 11:43 AM
Edited by Diacris at 11:44, 07 Dec 2019.

RerryR said:

Flat damage from Fire Magic
Normal: +25
Basic Fire: +50
Advanced Fire: +100
Expert Fire: +150



This is nice.

RerryR said:

For 10 damage:
Vanilla: ~3 damage
Current FS: ~443 damage
Your suggestion: ~40 damage



This is exactly what worries me. In the beginning of the fight, FS might be useful and rather balanced. But at the end, when a few low tier creatures with lackluster damage remain on the battle there won't be any incentive from the enemy to attack. A game if you don't finish fast will turn against you.

Thing is, it becomes stronger and stronger as the game progresses. It shouldn't be that way - just not useless among low tiers with low damage.

My take is, if 10 damage is all I can do but I get 443 damage in exchange, I'm better off not hitting you at all. You would have to make my unit retaliate to get that proced, why would I play a game which is heavily in your favore?

Let's take a different example:

10 Silver Pegasi vs 50 Harpy Hag.

30HP     vs     14 HP
10Def            6 Att
              1-4 Dmg

Considering the Def and Att difference, the Silver Pegasi would receive 20% damage reduction + more if stays in def all the time.

In a 1000 Silver Pegasi vs 5000 Harpy Hag, the FS is manageable - For every 5000-20000 damage I risk getting 1000 - 2500 damage, which still hurts and makes an impact.

But in the 10 vs 50 scenario, what would incentive me to hit them when I deliberately know the trade isn't beneficial to me. Dealing 50-200 Dmg in order to receive 505 - 520.

The Silver Pegasi would probably die anyway unless they stay in def, which in this scenario is encouraged since they're outnumbered and would likely die.


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RerryR
RerryR


Promising
Famous Hero
Researching Magic
posted December 07, 2019 03:38 PM
Edited by RerryR at 15:40, 07 Dec 2019.

Diacris said:

But in the 10 vs 50 scenario, what would incentive me to hit them when I deliberately know the trade isn't beneficial to me. Dealing 50-200 Dmg in order to receive 505 - 520.

The Silver Pegasi would probably die anyway unless they stay in def, which in this scenario is encouraged since they're outnumbered and would likely die.


okay I got you, thanks for the input. I guess that scenario won't happen so often bcause 80% of time there is no hero and if theres one he usually never casts FS. Such a situation would better be resolved with shooters, magic, cleanse and First Aid tent. It might require some tectical decisions. But I will play a bit, see and test Subject might be for change.

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Orc
Orc


Famous Hero
posted December 07, 2019 06:42 PM

RerryR said:


okay I got you, thanks for the input. I guess that scenario won't happen so often bcause 80% of time there is no hero and if theres one he usually never casts FS. Such a situation would better be resolved with shooters, magic, cleanse and First Aid tent. It might require some tectical decisions. But I will play a bit, see and test Subject might be for change.


can you make FS AOE spell on GM level like berserk? so you can target 2 or 3 of your units?

Ya mass FS will be a pain, but usually 1 is useless, cuz they can focus other stacks.

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RerryR
RerryR


Promising
Famous Hero
Researching Magic
posted December 07, 2019 07:11 PM

No making AOE spells I cannot do, sry. Only with dirty erm tricks. I wrote you a PM.

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Orc
Orc


Famous Hero
posted December 08, 2019 09:54 PM
Edited by Orc at 21:55, 08 Dec 2019.

maybe one way to make knowledge useful is to make spells cost more mana when they are stronger

i.e. 20 SP will cost more than 1 SP

though that will be incredibly hard to balance.

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AlfWithCake
AlfWithCake


Known Hero
posted December 09, 2019 10:55 AM

Orc said:
maybe one way to make knowledge useful is to make spells cost more mana when they are stronger.


 Nah, they already cost more. Just some skills/spells need to have scaling that depends on knowledge or even an additional effect based on knowledge. H5.5 is a good example of how to make it useful, H5 Tower also depends strongly on Knowledge, so it is possible.

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Orc
Orc


Famous Hero
posted December 09, 2019 12:41 PM
Edited by Orc at 12:53, 09 Dec 2019.

Orc said:
Found bug with demon summoning + War Machine script.


when my imps die and I summon them as demons, my first aid tent after the battle will attempt to revive my imp stack, but its demon stack, so I get additional demons.


Does this bug also exist in your mod's War machine scrpit?

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RerryR
RerryR


Promising
Famous Hero
Researching Magic
posted December 09, 2019 06:48 PM

Orc said:
Orc said:
Found bug with demon summoning + War Machine script.


when my imps die and I summon them as demons, my first aid tent after the battle will attempt to revive my imp stack, but its demon stack, so I get additional demons.


Does this bug also exist in your mod's War machine scrpit?


Did not check, but most likely yes. Might be an easy fix.

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Orc
Orc


Famous Hero
posted December 16, 2019 06:10 PM
Edited by Orc at 18:11, 16 Dec 2019.

The best buff for knowledge is to make +1 knowledge replenish +10 mana on level up or on magic school.

with artifacts it can be exploited to wear and take it off, but maybe taking of cost -10 mana for each knowledge and then it cant be exploited (except if mana is capped at 0 then it can still be exploited, but if we allow negative mana then there will be no problem.)

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RerryR
RerryR


Promising
Famous Hero
Researching Magic
posted December 16, 2019 08:05 PM

Orc said:
The best buff for knowledge is to make +1 knowledge replenish +10 mana on level up or on magic school.

with artifacts it can be exploited to wear and take it off, but maybe taking of cost -10 mana for each knowledge and then it cant be exploited (except if mana is capped at 0 then it can still be exploited, but if we allow negative mana then there will be no problem.)


Do you think that knowledge is in a that bad shape that it needs to be buffed? I'am not sure.

Your idea however to replenish spell points at level up is nice, could be a new perk for Master Mage, or on a secondary skill like Scholar or Wisdom.

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