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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: My ideas/vision for Homm8
Thread: My ideas/vision for Homm8 This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT»
LizardWizard
LizardWizard

Tavern Dweller
posted March 11, 2020 10:16 PM
Edited by LizardWizard at 09:31, 12 Mar 2020.

My ideas/vision for Homm8

Hey fellow heroes!

Recently as I started to re-play again with Heroes 3 (and 2, and 4, and HotA... ), and I was thinking that if I were the main designer for a new HoMM game how would I make it. So in my spare time I have written down some concepts, and if you don't mind I am more than happy to share it, and would more than welcome your thoughts and opinions!
Also I have to say that while there are a few good ideas in Ubisoft's HoMM games (I only played 5, I didn't try 6 and 7, just read about them), the old NWO universe and also the game mechanics are much better in their more simple way, so I collected (at least in broad terms) the IMHO best features primarily from the first four games.


So, let's start with the features:
- 9 factions, divided to 3-3-3 good-neutral-evil, and one hero type per faction, 4 Might hero, 4 Magic and 1 "Mixed" (Knight, Barbarian, Ranger, Warlock, Wizard, Necromancer, Dark Lord, Beastmaster, and Sorceress)
- Creatures are divided to 5 levels, each faction has 8 creatures level 1-4 plus upgraded version (there is only one level 5 creature which is a neutral), 2 per level (but you don't have to choose from them like in HoMM4). I thought this is the easiest way to determine approximately their strength (and I strongly dislike the Core-Elite-Champion division)
- Heroes are involved in the battle like in HoMM5
- Caravan, Cursed Artifacts and Combination Artifacts are featured
- Obelisk treasure can be the Grail or an Ultimate Artifact
- Retaliation is not simultaneous like in HoMM4, ranged retaliation is only with at least Advanced Archery
- Battlefield is hexagonal
- Thieves' Guild show some extra information once a day for a fee
- Mage Guilds are limited to level 3 for Might factions, level 4 for the Mixed faction (Magic factions can build level 5 mage guilds of course), and there are no "creature spellbooks"
- The riddler Sphinx from HoMM2 is back
- Warmachines are the same as in HoMM3
- All other systems (Skills, and Magic) I didn't elaborated (neither the Heroes' specialties), Magic could be also divided to 4 Elemental schools, but I also like the classification system of Homm4, anyway the etalon is Homm3
- Another cool feature that could be in the game are the alternative upgrades (that's also good idea from the 5th game), but I didn't had idea for all creatures so I skipped it
- A major decision was to avoid redundancy both in creature specialties (with some exceptions like "no retaliation") and creature names, because of that many units are missing (I didn't want to design it as an "all-star units"), but every faction has at least a totally new or a variant of an old unit
- Also important that factions doesn't represent "races" as in Ashan, and the majority of individual Heroes are humans
- Finally, the overall feeling and aesthetics could be something between the "fairy-tale" of Homm1 and 2, and the "epic fantasy" of Homm3 and 4 (deviantarty-grimdarkness be gone!... )

The story could be something like this:
When the old world was destroyed, not only one portal (to Axeoth) has been opened, but also an other. On their island the Priesthood of Karigor has also foreseen the coming cataclysm, so for their common goal the long-time rival Churches of the Sun and of the Moon put aside their grudges.
They also opened a portal to an other world, and many who couldn't make it to Axeoth found a way to escape through the Priests' portal - including many heroes from the three continents of Enroth, Antagarich and Jadame...
(Note: that means that heroes who made it to Axeoth cannot make a return.)


So, the factions are:

KNIGHT
Might - Good
Native terrain: Grass

Concept: While I think no doubt Homm3 is the best in the series, Castle was so over-powered, that I always strongly disliked them. However, in the earlier games they were the underdogs, but still the idea was good that they are just fellow humans (without the "holier-than-thou" feeling, more like the Knights of the Round Table), who fight against all kind of supernatural beings with some raw strength and bravery, so that is why they not have flyers at all and (besides the monks) no "magical" unit at all. (The Angels are present however as "neutrals", maybe they could be summonable.)

Creatures:

Level 1:
Militia -> Man-at-Arms: the mace-wielding Militia are not so good but cheap melee, while Men-at-Arms (being more professional soldiers) are stronger
Archer -> Crossbowman: no specialty, but best shooters for level 1

Level 2:
Nomad -> Outrider: they serve as a kind of irregular / mercenary light cavalry, Nomads have bonus speed on Desert terrain, while Outriders also on Snow, Rough and Lava
Pikeman -> Halberdier: because of their long weapon they are immune to jousting and jump attack (see below)

Level 3:
Swordsman -> Veteran Swordsman: Swordsmen are above average melee but without specialty, while Veteran Swordsmen have stronger retaliation
Monk -> Initiate Monk: ranged, healing, plus Initiate Monks has no melee penalty

Level 4:
Cavalier -> Champion: jousting
Crusader -> Paladin: Crusaders attack twice, Paladins are further immune to curse and do more damage to undead

Heroes:
Brigit, Cormac, Ector, Lance, Maximus, Rose, Rutger, Tarik, Tyro


BARBARIAN
Might - Neutral
Native terrain: Snow

Concept: I always felt that it would be even more heavy metal if the Barbarians would be affiliated with the freezing North, that's why I designed them to a "Snow" faction. And, of course, these Orcs are NOT demon-blooded...

Creatures:

Level 1:
Goblin -> Hobgoblin: being coward, sneaky creatures, they have a minor backstab attack bonus (when they attack _exactly_ from behind)
Orc -> Savage Orc: while orcs are below average shooters with throwing axes, their upgrade is melee - but with a twist, because Savage Orcs shoot before engaging in melee (it's like they have two attacks, but they have only a few "ammo", maybe four)

Level 2:
Worg -> Worg Rider: both attack twice, Worg Riders are slightly more powerful because these dreadful wolves are mounted by a hobgoblin warrior
Ogre -> Ogre Shaman: Ogre Shamans cast Bloodlust

Level 3:
Troll -> Ettin Troll: shooters, they throw stones, and also can attack castle walls, plus the two-headed Ettin Trolls are resistant to ice, and of course all trolls has regeneration!
Roc -> Pomola: the reason the Roc upgrade is not the Thunderbird because its power has been given to an other creature (see below), but Pomola are also from Native American legends; they are immune to ice plus has a chance to lower their enemies speed by their chilling attack
https://66.media.tumblr.com/2f21fd3d5d831122e8ba6a44ab5cfd73/tumblr_o8r49tKMfv1v9qvuco2_640.jpg

Level 4:
Wendigo -> Polar Wendigo: another Native American monster, Wendigos are immune to ice and can freeze the enemy (like the Ice Demon from Homm4), plus Polar Wendigos can emanate a "Frost Ring" once per battle
Behemoth -> Ancient Behemoth: like in HoMM3

Heroes:
Ayla, Jabarkas, Jezebel, Kelzen, Majak, Thundax, Tyraxor, Vaarna, Valfar


RANGER
Might - Good
Native terrain: Highlands (the terrain from HotA)

Concept: I wanted to design the Ranger faction to have more "fey" than "sylvan" feel, and the reason they are a might faction is because I feel that this way they are more "badass"

Creatures:

Level 1:
Pixie -> Sprite: same as in Homm3
Faun -> Wild Faun: named Fauns as a reason and not Satyrs, I imagine them as "Goat-Men"; Fauns are decent melee, and Wild Fauns have a chance to "stun" their enemies (like Squires in Homm4)

Level 2:
Elf -> Grand Elf: Elves shoot twice, while Grand Elves have no long range penalty
Hippogryph -> Griffin: Hippogryphs retaliate twice, Griffins have unlimited retaliation

Level 3:
Druid -> Greater Druid: ranged, Greater Druids have the "magic damper" ability like the Pegasi in HoMM3
Dendroid -> Treant: Dendroids can root one enemy, Treants can root all enemies around them

Level 4:
Unicorn -> Silver Unicorn: Unicorns blind their enemies, Silver Unicorns have magic resistance aura
Firebird -> Phoenix: same as in Homm3

Heroes:
Bordan, Caledor, Cauri, Hawk, Kyrre, Nemesis, Sinax, Torvald, Valeska


WARLOCK
Magic - Evil
Native terrain: Subterranean

Concept: My Warlock faction is maybe the most "conservative", I didn't change much as they were represented in Homm3 because I think they are one of the most original faction ever in the history of fantasy (not the dark elves stolen from Warhammer...)

Creatures:

Level 1:
Troglodyte -> Spiked Troglodyte: Troglodytes are immune to blind and petrify, Spiked Troglodytes do minor damage in melee with their spikes even when cannot retaliate
Stinger -> Infernal Hornet: inspired by the Wasps from Might and Magic 8, Stingers attack with "Weakness", and Infernal Hornets also Dispel beneficial spells

Level 2:
Beholder -> Evil Eye: same as in Homm3
Medusa -> Medusa Huntress: Medusas are melee (and of course have petrify), Medusa Huntresses are ranged but have no melee penalty (but still have few ammo)

Level 3:
Minotaur -> Minotaur Overlord: Minotaurs always have positive morale, Minotaur Overlords are immune to fear, terror and panic (see below)
Wyvern -> Horned Wyvern: both Wyverns and Horned Wyverns do poison, but Horned Wyverns' are more powerful

Level 4:
Hydra -> Chaos Hydra: same as in Homm3
Dragon -> Black Dragon: Dragons are of course flying, fire-breathing monsters who are immune to all kind of magic, Black Dragons are further attack with Acid (like Rust Dragons in Homm3; anyway, the "normal" Dragons could be either red, green or maybe (why not?) purple like in HoMM1 )

Heroes:
Avraxas, Crodo, Deemer, Geon, Kastore, Melkir, Parias, Wrathmont, Zantharr


WIZARD
Magic - Good
Native terrain: Desert

Concept: While they could fit to Snow as in the third game, I prefer the Desert, in my opinion it fits even more to them, because that's the most desolate, unfriendly terrain, so here, isolated from the outside world the wizards can study the mystic arts in serenity

Creatures:

Level 1:
Gremlin -> Master Gremlin: same as in Homm3
Gargoyle -> Marble Gargoyle: Gargoyles are flying, non-living, plus Marble Gargoyles are resistant to Earth spells

Level 2:
Golem -> Crystal Golem: Golems are also non-living, "normal" (stone) Golems has 50% magic damage protection, while Crystal Golems has 80% and they also make spellcasting cheaper with 2 spell points (I imagine them to look like "Crystal Walkers" in Might and Magic 8)
Flame Newt -> Salamander: also a MM8 inspired creature, they are immune to fire, plus Salamanders attack cause the enemy to burn for max 2 rounds, suffering some fire damage

Level 3:
Mage -> Battle Mage: they are ranged and suffer no melee and obstacle penalty, further the Battle Mages' presence make damaging spells more effective
Genie -> Djinn: Genies can cast a random beneficial spell once, Djinns 3 times

Level 4:
Simurgh -> Arcane Simurgh: I think this was the coolest creature in Homm7, but here they have different power: Simurghs has Storm Mirror (Magic Mirror only working against Air spells), while Arcane Simurghs Magic Mirror is like the spell
Giant -> Titan: same as in Homm3 (and NOT constructs as in Ashan, they are sentient beings!)

Heroes:
Casemir, Flint, Halon, Kalindra, Miara, Serena, Strago, Torosar, Vesythris


NECROMANCER
Magic - Evil
Native terrain: Dirt

Concept: Not much to say, for the Necromancer faction I would prefer the old horror-movie style of Homm2.

Creatures:

Level 1:
Skeleton -> Skeleton Warrior: same as in Homm3
Zombie -> Mutant Zombie: Zombies spread disease, but are slow, however Mutant Zombies are fast creatures

Level 2:
Ghost -> Spectre: being incorporeal, Ghosts resist 50% of ranged damage (so this balances that Necros have only Level 3 Liches as shooters), and Spectres have the Mana Drain ability
Mummy -> Royal Mummy: Mummies cast curse, while Royal Mummies has a chance every turn to reanimate around 10% of its original stack number (so, it's different from Phoenixes' rebirth as the destroyed Royal Mummy stack DOESN'T reanimate, also their numbers can only be restored to the original number)

Level 3:
Vampire -> Elder Vampire: same as in Homm3 (note: I imagine Vampires in the Dracula/Bela Lugosi and Elder Vampires in the Nosferatu style )
Lich -> Power Lich: both Liches and Power Liches have the Death Cloud attack (but while Liches' cloud do half damage to the not-targeted creatures, Power Liches' are of full power)

Level 4:
Phantom -> Wight: cursed, evil spirits, Phantoms has a chance to do "Power Drain", which means they lower the enemy unit's Attack and Damage with some degree and boosting their own (one enemy can only be "power-drained" once, while Wights further has the "Aging" ability (I imagine them somehow like the Barrow Wights are depicted from Lord of the Rings)
Bone Dragon -> Wraith Dragon: Bone Dragons lower the enemy morale, Wraith Dragons further has the "Fear" ability (like Azure Dragons in Homm3, not like in Homm4)

Heroes:
Antonius, Charity, Istvan, Karanya, Mandigal, Nimbus, Ophelia, Thant, Xsi


DARK LORD
Mixed - Evil
Native terrain: Lava

Concept: Dark Lords are the "mixed" faction which means that they are mighty individuals allied with demons, so they can also cast spells, but they are not as powerful as magicians. I know the name "Dark Lord" may sound cliché, but neither Demoniac, Heretic nor Demonlord is good enough to fit. Important to note that their units are really demons from Hell, not the alien Kreegans.

Creatures:

Level 1:
Imp -> Familiar: both Imps and Familiars do Mana Siphon (but Familiars' siphon more)
Gog -> Magog: same as in Homm3, also resistant to Fire (and the Magog's Fireball attack can be targeted anywhere like in HotA)

Level 2:
Hellhound -> Cerberus: same as in Homm3
Lamia -> Lamia Witch: Lamias are (traditionally not winged, but in my vision) flyers _and_ ranged creatures, Lamia Witches' ranged attack also casts a random negative spell on the target
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4f/c4/60/4fc4603fcb22529466d1120d10c29f5a.jpg


Level 3:
Fiend -> Vile Fiend: melee, Vile Fiends also do double damage to Good-aligned creatures
Nightmare -> Doom Steed: Nightmares can cast "Terror" once per battle like in Homm4, Doom Steeds can do it twice

Level 4:
Efreet -> Efreeti: Efreets are immune to fire, Efreeti has fire shield
Daemon -> Arch-Daemon: Daemons are resistant to fire, they teleport, lower luck and has no retaliation, and Arch-Daemons can summon Fiends to battle from a dead stack (be it friend or foe)

Heroes:
Baa Talos, Eidolon, Korak, Nymus, Rashka, Pyre, Xarfax, Yaffar, Zydar


BEASTMASTER
Might - Neutral
Native terrain: Rough

Concept: I always missed the Fortress faction (of course I don't mean the "dwarf fortress"). Here the Beastmasters does not represent swamp creatures, the idea was that their army mainly consist beasts, beastmen and other chimaeras, and also to have the "exotic savage" feeling (that was kind of good for the "Stronghold" factions in Ashan, but as I mentioned earlier without the "demonic heritage" stolen from Warcraft...), that's why they are based on rough terrain

Creatures:

Level 1:
Gnoll -> Gnoll Brute: melee, Gnoll Brutes can cause with their crude flails an "Open Wound", which means that for 2 or 3 rounds the target stack's maximum hit points are lowered by 5%
Dire Boar -> War Hog: the swift Boars (without any riders) are back from HoMM2, War Hogs further have pre-emptive retaliation (also their name is a wordplay, I imagine this upgraded boars more like warthogs )

Level 2:
Centaur -> Centaur Marauder: the only shooters, Centaur Marauders when attacked in melee (and possible) they move away and shoot (like in 5, I don't remember which upgrade did)
Harpy -> Harpy Fury: strike and return, Harpy Furies has no retaliation

Level 3:
Basilisk -> Cockatrice Basilisk: more bird-like than in Homm3, these Basilisks have the Death Stare ability, plus Cockatrice Basilisks are flyers
Manticore -> Scorpicore: both Manticores and Scorpicores do paralyze, the latter having higher chance

Level 4:
Cyclops -> Mighty Cyclops: Cyclopes are like in Homm2, melee creatures with eye beam attack (1-hex!) which can cause "Panic" (similar to Bone Dragon's Fear ability in Homm4), while the Mighty Cyclopes beam is 2-hex long like a breath attack (and both targets can be panicked), of course if the creatures cannot move back they just simply don't retaliate
Mokele -> Thunder Lizard: Mokeles are immune to slow, and Thunder Lizards (inspired by the dinosaur-like creatures from Might and Magic 6) further have the Lightning Strike ability (also the name Mokele is from the African cryptid Mokele-mbembe)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mokele-mbembe

Heroes:
Alkin, Amira, Bragg, Drakon, Gerwulf, Jango, Synca, Thogra, Tsabu


SORCERESS
Magic - Neutral
Native terrain: Special, because movement wise is Swamp, but creatures power-wise is Water

Concept: Finally, for the concept of the Sorceress faction I draw inspiration from 3 sources: first from the Horn of the Abyss "Cove" faction, second from Homm6 Sanctuary, and third from the fact that in Homm2 the secondary skill for Sorceresses was Navigation. As the old world is destroyed and Regna is no more, in the new world the sorceresses of the sea rule the great oceans.

Creatures:

Level 1:
Lizardman -> Lizardman Headhunter: ranged creatures, Lizardman Headhunters can also throw a trap net once per battle which renders the target immobile for 2 or 3 rounds (large creatures are immune to it)
Pirate -> Corsair: melee, they ignore their enemies' no retaliation ability

Level 2:
Kappa -> Hunting Kappa: while not flyers, Kappas move by jumping, and Hunting Kappas have a "Jump Attack" bonus if the target is minimum in 2-hex distance (that's not "cumulating" like the Cavaliers' and Champions' Jousting)
Triton -> Triton Magus: ranged creatures, Triton Magus also cast Disrupting Ray on the target

Level 3:
Mermaid -> Nereid: melee, they can cast Hypnotize once per battle
Sahuakin -> Frenzied Sahuakin: they are the "shark-men", Sahuakins are bloodthirsty creatures which means that if they kill a stack, they can make their next move instantly, while Frenzied Sahuakins' attack is so deadly that they suffer no retaliation (note: they are originally DnD creatures named "Sahuagin", Final Fantasy series plagiarized them as "Sahagin", so I also changed the spelling as with 'k' sounds better and fit to sharks)

Level 4:
Dragon Turtle -> Dragon Tortoise: because of their hard shells, against Dragon Turtles the enemies' Attack is lowered by 30% (against Dragon Tortoises 60%)
Kraken -> Colossal Kraken: if I'm right, the movie "Clash of the Titans" was a great inspiration for NWO developers, so that's why the iconic Kraken is included in my Sea Sorceress faction; Krakens can "Trample" once per battle which hurts all creatures around him (and castle walls, towers, making it a "little earthquake"), while Colossal Krakens' Trample radius is 2 hexes
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/villains/images/2/2e/Kraken-clash-of-the-titans.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120618193744

Heroes:
Adrienne, Ariel, Astra, Carlawn, Ciele, June, Melita, Styg, Zenobia


NEUTRALS
(This will be short, because I'm tired now )

Level 1:
Peasant: the weakest creature as always
Halfling: ranged, always lucky
Rogue: no retaliation

Level 2:
Dwarf: 40% magic resistance
Air Elemental: flying
Water Elemental: ranged

Level 3:
Werewolf: werewolves attack twice, plus they have a physical resistance which means that there is a chance that they take no damage from non-magical attacks (works like the "block" ability of the Minotaur in Homm4)
Fire Elemental: melee
Earth Elemental: melee

Level 4:
Cuisinart: the undead knights, they cast Sorrow plus has a chance to do double damage (the name is from Might and Magic 6, in my opinion it sounds very cool, and it was an easter egg referring to Wizardry! )
Angel: they of course fly, increase morale, and can cast resurrect once per battle

Level 5:
Devil: I imagine the good old alien Kreegans in their Might and Magic 6 and 7 appearance, here they are the most powerful unit: they have immunity to fire, they have a ranged attack, have no melee penalty, plus they can halve the enemy stack in melee and can cast Meteor Shower once per battle


So, that's all, hope you enjoyed it!

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted March 11, 2020 10:29 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 22:57, 11 Mar 2020.

My only complaints about units after rushing (wanna read it fully too, but I also wanted to say my first impression) your post:

1. There's no nagas in "Academy" (but I appreciate that Giants/Titans are living, not non-living as in H7. This doesn't mean they can't be constructs AND living either). However, on second read I notice the faction moved to desert (again.... I hate it when Academy is on freakin' sand), so they don't fit in there.

2. Unicorns as lvl 4... is a bit too... underpowered I guess? Can't find the word for it right now.

3. Beastmaster is somewhat of a mess. It probably looks like this since it's the last one I read. It's not that much of a mess on second read, but still pretty much a "soup", as my fellow natives say.

4. It won't be bad if there would be some more dragons, especially neutral. I know the later HoMM games (especially H5) had a lot of them, but they can also be insanely powerful, just like the amazing H3 expansion ones.

5. Do lamias really fit in demons' faction (more like Dungeon, together with medusas)? They could easily be replaced by something more thematic.

6. Phantom as lvl 4... the same as with the Unicorns.

7. I also don't like at all devils as lvl 5, higher than Angel.

8. Necropolis now has ultra-OP units; at least make Power Liches deal at most ~50-60% damage of what an unit of their level deals.

*It's not like I don't like your ideas, but it's easier (shorter and faster) to say what I don't like rather than say what I like.

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zydar
zydar


Hired Hero
posted March 12, 2020 12:09 AM

i want to play dark elf(or other jadamean) in homm game
where they live now in Axeoth?.

The war between Churches of the Sun and of the Moon its interesting become one of the campaign story, but there is no clerics/priests class hero?

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted March 12, 2020 12:51 AM

zydar said:
i want to play dark elf(or other jadamean) in homm game
where they live now in Axeoth?.

The war between Churches of the Sun and of the Moon its interesting become one of the campaign story, but there is no clerics/priests class hero?


Because now humans lack magic.

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LizardWizard
LizardWizard

Tavern Dweller
posted March 12, 2020 08:36 AM
Edited by LizardWizard at 10:06, 12 Mar 2020.

Thanks for the feedback guys!

FirePaladin

Quote:
1. There's no nagas in "Academy" (but I appreciate that Giants/Titans are living, not non-living as in H7. This doesn't mean they can't be constructs AND living either). However, on second read I notice the faction moved to desert (again.... I hate it when Academy is on freakin' sand), so they don't fit in there.


Yeah, but there are the Salamanders as an ophidian creature instead. However, I was also thinking that Desert could be the only terrain no native to any factions. Maybe the Wizards could have the Highlands as their native terrain, in this case the Rangers would have an other variant of grass (Hills?). Also, the Naga could be a neutral creature.

Quote:
2. Unicorns as lvl 4... is a bit too... underpowered I guess? Can't find the word for it right now.


I was thinking that in many fantasy fiction and in movies (eg.: The Last Unicorn, Legend) Unicorns are depicted as the main threat to the forces of evil and darkness. But I see your point, this can be solved by first: higher creature growth (that I totally forgot to mention) and/or second: having an other power, maybe they could be pure creatures of goodness that they're immune to negative effect spells like Misfortune, Sorrow, Curse etc.

Quote:
3. Beastmaster is somewhat of a mess. It probably looks like this since it's the last one I read. It's not that much of a mess on second read, but still pretty much a "soup", as my fellow natives say.


Nothing is carved in stone as these are only ideas, but to be honest I only feel the Cyclops to not fit somehow to the concept. Maybe they could be with the Barbarians again in place of the Behemoths (they are becoming neutral again, maybe as a second level 5 creature?), and in place of the Cyclops there could be something else. (Chimaera? A terryfing hybrid monster, it's attack makes a random effect (what could be anything, weakness, petrify, paralyze...))

Quote:
4. It won't be bad if there would be some more dragons, especially neutral. I know the later HoMM games (especially H5) had a lot of them, but they can also be insanely powerful, just like the amazing H3 expansion ones.


Well, my point was exactly to have fewer Dragons, and making them again (with the exception of undead ones) exclusive for Warlocks. (And once again, to make Black Dragons and Titans the most powerful top-tier.)

Quote:
5. Do lamias really fit in demons' faction (more like Dungeon, together with medusas)? They could easily be replaced by something more thematic.


In my opinion yes, because in original Greek mythology they are demons as well. (But I had an other idea, having human witches: Hag -> Witch, with the same power (I imagine them floating as in folk-tales), Hags appear as old ugly crones, Witches are young fair girls, but when the stack dies the illusion breaks and in death they are ugly crones again. )

Quote:
6. Phantom as lvl 4... the same as with the Unicorns.


Like with Unicorns, creature growth could be different. Also, because of having Power Drain and (in the case of Wights) Aging, both being very strong abilities, if they were lower tier they were game-breaker.

Quote:
7. I also don't like at all devils as lvl 5, higher than Angel.


The devil is not a demon here, but an alien, and the fact that they're the antagonists in MM6 is the reason why I thought devils could be on a kind of "mini-boss" power level (like the special dragons in Armageddon's Blade).
EDIT: Or, make Angels level 5 too, and if the Behemoths (as I've mentioned above as a possibility) are the 3rd level 5-s, then we have a Good (Angel), an Evil (Devil) and a Neutral (Behemoth) level 5-trio!

Quote:
8. Necropolis now has ultra-OP units; at least make Power Liches deal at most ~50-60% damage of what an unit of their level deals.


I totally agree, undead have to be more fragile in terms of attack, defense, damage, but their specials are what balance the odds.

Quote:
*It's not like I don't like your ideas, but it's easier (shorter and faster) to say what I don't like rather than say what I like.


Yeah, I see!


zydar

Quote:
i want to play dark elf(or other jadamean) in homm game
where they live now in Axeoth?.


Maybe I wasn't concrete, it's not Axeoth but an other world. (Sorry, English is not my mother tongue...) I like jadamean dark elves too, I was thinking about implementing them to the Sorceress faction (maybe they are being the Pirates (Dark Elf -> Dark Elf Pirate), but they could be higher level, in this case the Kappa could be downgraded).

Quote:
The war between Churches of the Sun and of the Moon its interesting become one of the campaign story, but there is no clerics/priests class hero?


No, but as neutral creatures the Cleric of the Sun and of the Moon could be present, the story could progress that in the new world they fight again for dominance, manipulating the factions from the shadows.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted March 12, 2020 11:34 AM
Edited by FirePaladin at 11:35, 12 Mar 2020.

Quote:
Quote:
2. Unicorns as lvl 4... is a bit too... underpowered I guess? Can't find the word for it right now.


I was thinking that in many fantasy fiction and in movies (eg.: The Last Unicorn, Legend) Unicorns are depicted as the main threat to the forces of evil and darkness. But I see your point, this can be solved by first: higher creature growth (that I totally forgot to mention) and/or second: having an other power, maybe they could be pure creatures of goodness that they're immune to negative effect spells like Misfortune, Sorrow, Curse etc.


That's a fair point (the one with Phantom too).

Quote:
Quote:
7. I also don't like at all devils as lvl 5, higher than Angel.


The devil is not a demon here, but an alien, and the fact that they're the antagonists in MM6 is the reason why I thought devils could be on a kind of "mini-boss" power level (like the special dragons in Armageddon's Blade).
EDIT: Or, make Angels level 5 too, and if the Behemoths (as I've mentioned above as a possibility) are the 3rd level 5-s, then we have a Good (Angel), an Evil (Devil) and a Neutral (Behemoth) level 5-trio!


The trio is indeed a good idea!
However, even in religion you can't tell for sure if Devils aren't some race of aliens (they're also being mentioned as aliens in some mythologies).


About the dragons, I was not only inspired by HoMM but also by Knig's Bounty, a game where the only dragons (except bone) were the most powerful 4-6 units (including dragons from later games). Here's a link to them: Dragons


Quote:
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1. There's no nagas in "Academy" (but I appreciate that Giants/Titans are living, not non-living as in H7. This doesn't mean they can't be constructs AND living either). However, on second read I notice the faction moved to desert (again.... I hate it when Academy is on freakin' sand), so they don't fit in there.


Yeah, but there are the Salamanders as an ophidian creature instead. However, I was also thinking that Desert could be the only terrain no native to any factions. Maybe the Wizards could have the Highlands as their native terrain, in this case the Rangers would have an other variant of grass (Hills?). Also, the Naga could be a neutral creature.


Wizards on Highlands would be quite a change, but high mountains are also considered a place with few people, where the wizards can study in peace. Mountains are also relatively hard to climb, but that shouldn't be a real problem for golems and titans. Naga could be a neutral, true (affiliated with sanctuary (Sorceress), probably).

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LizardWizard
LizardWizard

Tavern Dweller
posted March 13, 2020 11:05 AM

Quote:
However, even in religion you can't tell for sure if Devils aren't some race of aliens (they're also being mentioned as aliens in some mythologies).


I see, it's kind of similar to the fact that (at least before Roswell) the alien abductions were "done" by faeries/demons/evil spirits.

So you've got the point, but in this concept I'd still like to stick to that distinction between Demons and Devils.

Quote:
About the dragons, I was not only inspired by HoMM but also by Knig's Bounty, a game where the only dragons (except bone) were the most powerful 4-6 units (including dragons from later games). Here's a link to them: Dragons


Many thanks for recommending (and reminding) me King's Bounty! Being the successor of the predecessor of Homm, I wanted to try it a long time ago, all reviews I read about it was positive.

Quote:
Wizards on Highlands would be quite a change, but high mountains are also considered a place with few people, where the wizards can study in peace. Mountains are also relatively hard to climb, but that shouldn't be a real problem for golems and titans. Naga could be a neutral, true (affiliated with sanctuary (Sorceress), probably).


Okay, you convinced me. Also it came to my mind that the Hills would be good then for the Ranger, I remember that in Might and Magic 7 the Ranger class' first promotion quest was to find the Faerie King who dwells in "The Hall Under The Hill".

Besides, I was also thinking about the Lamia. Having an other "snake-girl" besides the Medusa could be redundant. That also means that for the Naga I would prefer the "Serpentman"-style.

Now I have to go back to work, but in my next post I will make the updated summary for line-ups and neutrals.
(Just for a quick reference: Cyclops returns to Barbarian; Beastmasters will have the Chimaera; Lamia is replaced by Hag/Witch; Angel and Behemoth will be level-5 neutrals; and as new neutrals the Naga, the Dark Elf (from Jadame, in the new world mercenaries and merchants), and the Cleric of the Sun and of the Moon will be implemented.)

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted March 13, 2020 11:27 AM
Edited by FirePaladin at 11:30, 13 Mar 2020.

LizardWizard said:
Quote:
However, even in religion you can't tell for sure if Devils aren't some race of aliens (they're also being mentioned as aliens in some mythologies).


I see, it's kind of similar to the fact that (at least before Roswell) the alien abductions were "done" by faeries/demons/evil spirits.

So you've got the point, but in this concept I'd still like to stick to that distinction between Demons and Devils.

Quote:
About the dragons, I was not only inspired by HoMM but also by Knig's Bounty, a game where the only dragons (except bone) were the most powerful 4-6 units (including dragons from later games). Here's a link to them: Dragons


Many thanks for recommending (and reminding) me King's Bounty! Being the successor of the predecessor of Homm, I wanted to try it a long time ago, all reviews I read about it was positive.

Quote:
Wizards on Highlands would be quite a change, but high mountains are also considered a place with few people, where the wizards can study in peace. Mountains are also relatively hard to climb, but that shouldn't be a real problem for golems and titans. Naga could be a neutral, true (affiliated with sanctuary (Sorceress), probably).


Okay, you convinced me. Also it came to my mind that the Hills would be good then for the Ranger, I remember that in Might and Magic 7 the Ranger class' first promotion quest was to find the Faerie King who dwells in "The Hall Under The Hill".

Besides, I was also thinking about the Lamia. Having an other "snake-girl" besides the Medusa could be redundant. That also means that for the Naga I would prefer the "Serpentman"-style.

Now I have to go back to work, but in my next post I will make the updated summary for line-ups and neutrals.
(Just for a quick reference: Cyclops returns to Barbarian; Beastmasters will have the Chimaera; Lamia is replaced by Hag/Witch; Angel and Behemoth will be level-5 neutrals; and as new neutrals the Naga, the Dark Elf (from Jadame, in the new world mercenaries and merchants), and the Cleric of the Sun and of the Moon will be implemented.)


Now, this is noice. I don't think I have any complaints anymore.

One thing, if you try King's Bounty: the first is called The Legend, the second Armored Princess (but is already included in Crossworlds with bonuses), third is Warriors of the North (best played with the expansion, honestly) and fourth is... well, the disappointing the Dark Side (has an expansion too and should be played with it for full experience).

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Alon
Alon


Adventuring Hero
posted March 15, 2020 07:11 AM

Things I like:

- The clear separation into might and magic factions. Your might factions clearly have some magic, like the monks, and your magic factions have strong might creatures, like the minotaurs, but that's fine, the difference is always degree more than kind.

- The swamp-y faction for the lizardpeople is cool and there should be more like this.

- The snow barbarians, desert wizards feel.

- Pikemen finally have something like reach that makes them good against cavalry as is historically correct.

That said, one huge question mark about this whole thing:

- What do the creatures for each faction do? Like, what roles do they play? For example, in early game in the knight faction, am I expected to just use militia as a meat shield for archer? Outriders are light cavalry, so do I get to use them like historic light cavalry, i.e. as a harassment unit? (P.S. this is a question that the Heroes series is generally weak in - it's never really had the concept of unit combos that Civ, Starcraft, Red Alert, and I think Total War did.)

More broadly, how do feel and gameplay interact? For example, the necromancer faction is supposed to be horror - in what way is it like horror? Something that H3 almost gets right but not really is that the Dungeon is supposed to be this brutal hierarchy, so the low-level units exist to be cheap, replaceable cannon fodder and meat shield for high-level units like dragons, so what I'd like to see is dragons that are very powerful and expensive but require troglodyte cannon fodder or else they're vulnerable.
____________

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lolixer8383
lolixer8383

Tavern Dweller
posted March 15, 2020 03:03 PM

Couple of comments on the ideas:

-I like having all the factions from previous games  (ie no missing factions)

-I like orcs being half demons with intrinsic blood lust much like homm5 rather than homm6

-I think each creature should have more passives and abilities like homm6 where every creature was very unique and had its own flavor.

-I also like having alternate upgrades like homm5 toe, but I do understand how that could be expensive for a AAA game to have at release since the models now are much higher in quality and especially if each unit has homm6 detail. Maybe expansion material.

-I like the idea of multiple units in each tier level, that way there are different units to choose from that have similar power but different play styles.


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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted March 15, 2020 04:41 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 16:44, 15 Mar 2020.

In the same style as lolixer8383, it would be awesome if creatures would have multiple activated abilities, like in King's Bounty (to the lower-right):




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LizardWizard
LizardWizard

Tavern Dweller
posted March 17, 2020 12:06 PM
Edited by LizardWizard at 12:07, 17 Mar 2020.

Thanks again for the feedback!

FirePaladin

Quote:
One thing, if you try King's Bounty: the first is called The Legend, the second Armored Princess (but is already included in Crossworlds with bonuses), third is Warriors of the North (best played with the expansion, honestly) and fourth is... well, the disappointing the Dark Side (has an expansion too and should be played with it for full experience).


Thanks, I will start with Legend then.

Alon

Quote:
- What do the creatures for each faction do? Like, what roles do they play? For example, in early game in the knight faction, am I expected to just use militia as a meat shield for archer? Outriders are light cavalry, so do I get to use them like historic light cavalry, i.e. as a harassment unit? (P.S. this is a question that the Heroes series is generally weak in - it's never really had the concept of unit combos that Civ, Starcraft, Red Alert, and I think Total War did.)


In my opinion the main appeal of (at least the earlier) HoMM games is how easy to learn it, and being complex game at the same time. Almost any people whom I showed Homm3, including those friends who were never into strategy games, loved it (and I suppose also for the aesthetics), so we had great times with Hot Seat mode.
So, if I were the designer I would keep this tradition, to be more concrete in the case of Nomads/Outriders being light cavalry is represented in the way that they are of lower level than heavy cavalry Champions, but in the same time they could be more powerful than same-tier foot soldiers, and also of course they must have the highest speed among the Knight faction units.
About the Militia/Man-at-arms, I didn't imagine them "meat-shields" like zombies, I think they could be more an offensive unit, Pikemen/Halberdiers are more defensive - but of course, it always depends on the individual player's style.

Quote:
More broadly, how do feel and gameplay interact? For example, the necromancer faction is supposed to be horror - in what way is it like horror?


In this case I was referring to the art style and overall aesthetics of Homm2 Necro faction, the creatures' and also the castle's look like they are from an old, classic Universal- or Hammer Horror movie.
And again, I think the gameplay could return to more simple ways, but in the same time some non-radical innovations are of course could be necessary, or else it adds nothing new to the gameplay experience of previous editions other than pure nostalgia - and then why would anyone buy and install the game anyway, taking into account that previous editions not just can give the same experience, but (more than likely) can also run on weaker computers (like mine)?

lolixer8383

Quote:
-I think each creature should have more passives and abilities like homm6 where every creature was very unique and had its own flavor.


Yes, however it's not an easy job in this case to give even more abilities, one of the main concepts when I write this was to make all the units as unique as possible and not make abilities repetitive. For example, that's why I changed the Roc's upgrade version to Pomola and not Thunderbird, because the Beastmasters' Thunder Lizard have the "Thunderstrike" ability, or an other example I wanted the "Regeneration" an unique ability for Trolls, I gave Ghosts a different ability, etc.
I think the key to make the line-ups even more unique is by giving to the Heroes unique abilities. Like, in the case of Necros, who have the Necromancy skill, all the other 8 Hero types could have a unique skill (not necessary a Secondary Skill) which makes their army especially useful under their command.

Quote:
-I also like having alternate upgrades like homm5 toe, but I do understand how that could be expensive for a AAA game to have at release since the models now are much higher in quality and especially if each unit has homm6 detail. Maybe expansion material.


I agree, that was the best feature in ToE. I skipped this because I didn't had ideas for an alternative upgrade for each creature, but would be cool.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted March 17, 2020 12:33 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 12:38, 17 Mar 2020.

Yeah, I agree, every hero class (or faction hero) should have a special skill, just like the necromancers.

And you know, not all creatures could have an/multiple abilities; Let's say Angels have a resurrection ability but also something like Divine Vengeance from H5 (just an example). Or Bone Dragon has a "consume" ability (eat corpse/vital life and heal) and also a special attack on a single/area stack that poisons it. Higher tier creatures could have more abilities than lower tier. And some creatures could be statistically weaker, but have very good abilities.

Alternative upgrades are not entirely necessary for all creatures, but should be available to a part of them, including classic ones (Black Dragons, Titans, etc.).

Edit: Necromancers faction could be "horror" in the style of H2; I loved their style there, especially the meat hanging bone dragons.

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Alon
Alon


Adventuring Hero
posted March 18, 2020 05:11 AM
Edited by Alon at 05:54, 18 Mar 2020.

LizardWizard said:


In my opinion the main appeal of (at least the earlier) HoMM games is how easy to learn it, and being complex game at the same time. Almost any people whom I showed Homm3, including those friends who were never into strategy games, loved it (and I suppose also for the aesthetics), so we had great times with Hot Seat mode.


Oh, definitely. The lack of skill floor is definitely a big bonus, esp. compared with Starcraft 1 (cf. Starcraft 2, where you can get pretty far ahead building nothing but marines). I'm asking more about skill ceilings but I get that designing a game with a low floor and a high ceiling is hard.

One concrete way to try to do it: have some units or unit combos that are powerful for their cost and easy to control, but can be countered by a high-level player.

Let's say light cavalry like the outriders is really powerful - fast enough that it can reach enemy archers because they cause too much damage, and good on most terrain. Maybe pikemen counter them the way they do heavy cavalry but it's a soft rather than hard counter, and also an intermediate player can build a combo army with pikemen, outriders, and archers.

But at high skill level, a combo of units, correct choice of hero skills, and spells can break these midgame combos. Against outriders, you want the slow spell; against pikemen-in-front-of-archers, you want AOE like fireballs. Maybe the tactics skill doesn't work like in H3 but rather lets the higher-tactics hero choose the battlefield's terrain to some extent, so an army of archers will want forest tiles to slow cavalry down, an army of outriders and champions will want open terrain, and a pure outrider army will want rough terrain. Maybe cavalry charges demoralize the enemy as was the case historically so to fight back against either outriders or champions effectively you should have the leadership skill. If you go with the H5 upgrade choices then you could also tailor upgrade choices to beating different units. So the high-level player has to know in advance what army the enemy is building, which is where using the thieves' guild for scouting information is so important.

Quote:
And again, I think the gameplay could return to more simple ways, but in the same time some non-radical innovations are of course could be necessary, or else it adds nothing new to the gameplay experience of previous editions other than pure nostalgia - and then why would anyone buy and install the game anyway, taking into account that previous editions not just can give the same experience, but (more than likely) can also run on weaker computers (like mine)?


Yeah, that's why I keep annoying people in this forum with questions about unit counters and such (and also macro like whether you can build new towns).

EDIT:

FirePaladin said:
Yeah, I agree, every hero class (or faction hero) should have a special skill, just like the necromancers.


YES. This. So much.

And the special skills should reflect feel while maintaining good gameplay. So necromancers have necromancy, and knights have morale upgrades that help fight demoralizing units like cavalry or behemoths or ghost dragons, and barbarians probably have some skill that lets them attack-and-retreat like historic raiders.
____________

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted March 19, 2020 01:37 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 13:37, 19 Mar 2020.

FirePaladin said:
Yeah, I agree, every hero class (or faction hero) should have a special skill, just like the necromancers.


YES. This. So much.

And the special skills should reflect feel while maintaining good gameplay. So necromancers have necromancy, and knights have morale upgrades that help fight demoralizing units like cavalry or behemoths or ghost dragons, and barbarians probably have some skill that lets them attack-and-retreat like historic raiders.


The barbarians could have the possibility to flee without losing the army (probably too OP)

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Alon
Alon


Adventuring Hero
posted March 19, 2020 05:47 PM

FirePaladin said:
The barbarians could have the possibility to flee without losing the army (probably too OP)


It's only OP if the barbarians have units that are otherwise balanced without respect for this ability. But if the units are designed with this ability in mind, it's fine to have units that are weak at siegecraft and pitched battle but good at raiding, as historic horse archers were. (P.S. the Vikings didn't use horse archers, but OP's other inspiration, the Plains Indians, did.)

For example, let's say your flee-without-losing-the-army ability means a unit stack only flees on its turn. Horse archers are fast so they go before most enemy units and flee. But goblins and orcs aren't, so an enemy hero's archers might still get an extra shot at them.

This trick also means the counter to horse archers is the same as the historic counter: foot archers. Unless the barbarian hero flees immediately and thus doesn't cause any damage, foot archers will get a shot; ranged spellcasters can also cause damage. But horse archers still hard-counter slower melee units like pikemen and do well against outriders.

For extra variety, let's give the barbarians town one good siegecraft unit: trolls, attacking town gates. But trolls are a mid-to-late-game unit, and unlike catapults they cost money. So really playing a barbarian hero you want to raid with horse archers, maybe do small skirmishes to beat enemy heroes trying to claim resource nodes, and only commit to one big siege battle in late game, like the Battle of Minas Tirith.
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LizardWizard
LizardWizard

Tavern Dweller
posted March 20, 2020 10:14 AM
Edited by LizardWizard at 10:24, 20 Mar 2020.

Alon

Quote:
Oh, definitely. The lack of skill floor is definitely a big bonus, esp. compared with Starcraft 1 (cf. Starcraft 2, where you can get pretty far ahead building nothing but marines). I'm asking more about skill ceilings but I get that designing a game with a low floor and a high ceiling is hard.


Exactly!

Quote:
Maybe the tactics skill doesn't work like in H3 but rather lets the higher-tactics hero choose the battlefield's terrain to some extent, so an army of archers will want forest tiles to slow cavalry down, an army of outriders and champions will want open terrain, and a pure outrider army will want rough terrain. Maybe cavalry charges demoralize the enemy as was the case historically so to fight back against either outriders or champions effectively you should have the leadership skill.


I see your point, but let's not forget, before you think about how warfare could be presented in a "realistic" way, that in the history of HoMM with the exception of the ever-present Haven/Knight faction, all other armies are a mixture of mythological and fantasy creatures. That's why I wish to keep it simple, not just because of the "appeal" I mentioned before.
Also, one has to be very careful before making radical changes like these you mentioned, remember how HoMM4 failed at first, and... well, everyone knows the story... :/

FirePaladin

Quote:
The barbarians could have the possibility to flee without losing the army


Sorry, the problem is not that it's OP, but think about it: barbarians + flee? I mean, could you imagine Schwarzenegger's Conan to get a bonus on being a coward?
EDIT: But maybe something similar would fit however to the Beastmaster.


(Also, in my next reply I will surely post updated line-ups and maybe some new ideas. )

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Alon
Alon


Adventuring Hero
posted March 20, 2020 11:26 AM
Edited by Alon at 11:27, 20 Mar 2020.

LizardWizard said:
I see your point, but let's not forget, before you think about how warfare could be presented in a "realistic" way, that in the history of HoMM with the exception of the ever-present Haven/Knight faction, all other armies are a mixture of mythological and fantasy creatures. That's why I wish to keep it simple, not just because of the "appeal" I mentioned before.


Yeah, definitely, esp. if the knight faction is more like H3 in having air support. I just like looking at historic realism because it's useful in giving ideas for what kind of units to have and how they fight, at least for the knight faction and probably also the barbarian one. Hence the cavalry-pike-archers RPS game (which is also present in AoE 2 and Wargroove, it's not like I'm making things up). Then you can figure out other factions' strategies and units based on balancing them against the knight and the barbarian.

Quote:
Sorry, the problem is not that it's OP, but think about it: barbarians + flee? I mean, could you imagine Schwarzenegger's Conan to get a bonus on being a coward?
EDIT: But maybe something similar would fit however to the Beastmaster.


Yes? The orcs in LotR flee when losing and are seen harrying villages, the Plains Indians used harassment tactics in battle, the Vikings used harassment tactics too. The faction I most associate with human wave tactics and never retreating is the necromancer, with waves of skeletons and zombies.
____________

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted March 20, 2020 11:29 AM

I said flee because in HoMM right now it's similar to attack-and-retreat.

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LizardWizard
LizardWizard

Tavern Dweller
posted March 20, 2020 01:54 PM
Edited by LizardWizard at 13:54, 20 Mar 2020.

Alon

Quote:
Yes? The orcs in LotR flee when losing and are seen harrying villages, the Plains Indians used harassment tactics in battle, the Vikings used harassment tactics too. The faction I most associate with human wave tactics and never retreating is the necromancer, with waves of skeletons and zombies.


I know, I was just referring that I didn't want to make a certain strategy a special faction ability or skill. I mean that for example, depending on the map and the amount of resources I had, I used the harassment tactics with almost every faction in Homm3, not just with Stronghold (and Fortress).
Also, in this concept I've written it would fit more to the Beastmaster line-up (with the Harpies and Centaurs, the closest you got to 'Horse Archers').

FirePaladin

Quote:
I said flee because in HoMM right now it's similar to attack-and-retreat.


Got it, I was only joking (or at least tried ).


Regarding the changes we've discussed before, first I would start with the new (and replaced) neutral units:

Dark Elf (Level 3): ranged, mercenary*, darkfire**

Cleric of the Sun (level 3): ranged, casts random mass beneficient spells on allies

Cleric of the Moon (level 3): ranged, casts random mass maleficient spells on the enemies

Naga (Level 4): melee, pre-emptive retaliation***, no retaliation

Behemoth (level 5): melee, ignores 80% of enemy defense

Angel (Level 5): flyer, melee, resurrection once per battle, increases morale

*: it means that Dark Elves don't lower the morale of any army they are part of
**: I've taken the Darkfire from MM8, the Dark Elf can cast this unique spell once per battle dealing huge damage, which can affect creatures with Fire Immunity too (Salamanders, Phoenixes etc.), being only partially fire-based
***: I've made a slight change with "retaliation skills", in the first draft Veteran Swordsmen having the 'stronger retaliation' and War Hogs the 'pre-emptive retaliation'. Now I feel the pre-emptive would fit more the Naga (being Serpentman, having the reflexes of a snake), Veteran Swordsmen have 'simultaneous retaliation' (only they have it, I think it fits to them being masters of duel), and War Hogs have 'stronger retaliation' (becoming enraged when damaged).

And now, the summary of the line-ups for quick reference (specialties applying only to the upgraded creatures are in bold):

KNIGHT
Might - Good - Grass

Level 1:
Militia -> Man-at-Arms: melee
Archer -> Crossbowman: ranged

Level 2:
Nomad -> Outrider: melee, bonus movement on desert; plus on lava, rough, snow
Pikeman -> Halberdier: melee, blocks jousting and jump attack

Level 3:
Swordsman -> Veteran Swordsman: melee, simultaneous retaliation
Monk -> Initiate Monk: ranged, healing; no melee penalty

Level 4:
Cavalier -> Champion: melee, jousting
Crusader -> Paladin: melee, attacks twice; immune to curse, bonus damage to undead


BARBARIAN
Might - Neutral - Snow

Level 1:
Goblin -> Hobgoblin: melee, backstab
Orc -> Savage Orc: ranged; melee, shoots before melee attack

Level 2:
Worg -> Worg Rider: melee, attacks twice
Ogre -> Ogre Shaman: melee, bloodlust

Level 3:
Troll -> Ettin Troll: ranged, regeneration, throws stones; resistant to ice
Roc -> Pomola: flyer, melee; immune to ice, chilling attack

Level 4:
Wendigo -> Polar Wendigo: melee, immune to ice, freezing; frost ring
Cyclops -> Mighty Cyclops: melee, panic; 2-hex attack


RANGER
Might - Good - Hills

Level 1:
Pixie -> Sprite: flyer, melee; no retaliation
Faun -> Wild Faun: melee; stun

Level 2:
Elf -> Grand Elf: ranged, shoots twice; no long range penalty
Hippogryph -> Griffin: flyer, melee, retaliates twice; unlimited retaliation

Level 3:
Druid -> Greater Druid: ranged; magic damper
Dendroid -> Treant: melee, roots (one); roots (any)

Level 4:
Unicorn -> Silver Unicorn: melee, blind, immune to negative spells; magic resistance aura
Firebird -> Phoenix: flyer, melee, immune to fire, breath attack; rebirth


WARLOCK
Magic - Evil - Subterranean

Level 1:
Troglodyte -> Spiked Troglodyte: melee, immune to blind and petrify; spike damage
Stinger -> Infernal Hornet: flyer, melee, weakness; dispel

Level 2:
Beholder -> Evil Eye: ranged, no melee penalty
Medusa -> Medusa Huntress: melee, petrify; ranged, no melee penalty

Level 3:
Minotaur -> Minotaur Overlord: melee, always positive morale; immune to fear
Wyvern -> Horned Wyvern: flyer, melee, poison

Level 4:
Hydra -> Chaos Hydra: melee, attacks all adjacent enemies, no retaliation
Dragon -> Black Dragon: flyer, melee, breath attack, magic immunity; acid


WIZARD
Magic - Good - Highlands

Level 1:
Gremlin -> Master Gremlin: melee; ranged
Gargoyle -> Marble Gargoyle: flyer, melee, non-living; resistant to Earth spells

Level 2:
Golem -> Crystal Golem: melee, non-living, 50% magic damage resistance; 80% magic damage resistance, cheaper spellcasting
Flame Newt -> Salamander: melee, immune to fire; burning

Level 3:
Mage -> Battle Mage: ranged, no melee penalty, no obstacle penalty; damage bonus to spells
Genie -> Djinn: flyer, melee, random spellcast 1 times; random spellcast 3 times

Level 4:
Simurgh -> Arcane Simurgh: flyer, melee, air mirror; magic mirror
Giant -> Titan: melee, immune to mind spells; ranged, no melee penalty


NECROMANCER
Magic - Evil - Dirt

Level 1:
Skeleton -> Skeleton Warrior: undead, melee
Zombie -> Mutant Zombie: undead, melee, disease

Level 2:
Ghost -> Spectre: undead, flyer, 50% missile damage resistance; spell point drain
Mummy -> Royal Mummy: undead, melee, curse; re-animation

Level 3:
Vampire -> Elder Vampire: undead, flyer, melee, blood drain; life drain
Lich -> Power Lich: undead, ranged, death cloud; death cloud (full power)

Level 4:
Phantom -> Wight: undead, melee, power drain; aging
Bone Dragon -> Wraith Dragon: undead, flyer, lowers morale; fear


DARK LORD
Mixed - Evil - Lava

Level 1:
Imp -> Familiar: melee, spell point siphon
Gog -> Magog: ranged, resistant to fire; fireball attack

Level 2:
Hellhound -> Cerberus: melee, no retaliation; attacks 3 adjacent enemies
Hag -> Witch: flyer, ranged; random negative spellcast on ranged attack

Level 3:
Fiend -> Vile Fiend: melee; double damage vs good-aligned creatures
Nightmare -> Doom Steed: melee, terror; terror (two times)

Level 4:
Efreet -> Efreeti: flyer, melee, immune to fire; fire shield
Daemon -> Arch-Daemon: melee, teleports, lowers luck, no retaliation; summons Fiends from a dead stack


BEASTMASTER
Might - Neutral - Rough

Level 1:
Gnoll -> Gnoll Brute: melee; open wound
Dire Boar -> War Hog: melee; stronger retaliation

Level 2:
Centaur -> Centaur Marauder: ranged; hit-and-run
Harpy -> Harpy Fury: flyer, melee, strike and return; no retaliation

Level 3:
Basilisk -> Cockatrice Basilisk: melee, death stare; flyer
Manticore -> Scorpicore: flyer, melee, paralyze

Level 4:
Mokele -> Thunder Lizard: melee, immune to slow; thunderstrike
Chimaera -> Foul Chimaera: melee, random creature specialty on attack


SORCERESS
Magic - Neutral - Swamp/Water

Level 1:
Lizardman -> Lizardman Headhunter: ranged; trap net
Pirate -> Corsair: melee, ignores 'no retaliation'

Level 2:
Kappa -> Hunting Kampa: melee, jumps; jump attack bonus
Triton -> Triton Magus: ranged; disrupting ray

Level 3:
Mermaid -> Nereid: melee, hypnotize
Sahuakin -> Frenzied Sahuakin: melee, bonus attack when kills a stack; no retaliation

Level 4:
Dragon Turtle -> Dragon Tortoise: melee, lowers enemy attack by 30%; lowers enemy attack by 60%
Kraken -> Colossal Kraken: melee, trample; trample (2 hex radius)

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