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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: My ideas/vision for Homm8
Thread: My ideas/vision for Homm8 This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted March 25, 2020 08:44 PM

I meant THE Damage Calculator (the one made for HotA and stuff, but the name is kinda improper since it also calculates value and others), but thanks anyway.

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Alon
Alon


Adventuring Hero
posted March 26, 2020 07:14 PM

Okay, silly idea, inspired by this Twitter exchange: why not give each faction different siege units, instead of having the same catapult?

Knight: the usual catapult, a ballista to help fire over walls, archers firing over walls (maybe even at the arrow towers if they're upgraded), maaaaaaybe militia/pikemen can turn into a battering ram squad at the gate

Barbarian: looking at LotR orcs for inspiration, there might be some catapults but also goblins and orcs climbing walls and taking severe damage while doing so, trolls throwing rocks at walls and gates, and maybe behemoths bashing in gates too

Ranger: multiple flying units, elves firing over walls, maybe treants bashing walls like the ents' assault on Isengard; hero spells include earthquakes damaging walls

Warlock: many flying units, and maybe the troglodytes can climb over walls taking immense casualties but whatever, they're cannon fodder

Wizard: flying and ranged units, but the golems could bash walls and the gremlins could also act as a sapper squad; hero spells include a large repertoire of siege spells

Necromancer: from the Twitter thread, a creature that basically spews disease (like the H4 venom spawn), and on the adventure map could trigger something like the halving of creatures coming from a week of plague in H3, and in addition, zombies and skeletons could climb walls as in zombie horror flicks

Dark lord: so many fliers and ranged units, plus many relevant spells, e.g. direct damage spells firing over walls

Beastmaster: the harpy specifically is an incredibly strong siege unit on either side, and the cyclops could also attack walls as in H3

Sorceress: the kappa jumps over walls, the corsair presumably can scale walls and not take as much damage as an orc oro troglodyte or zombie, and maybe the water-dwelling units can undermine moats somehow
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted March 26, 2020 07:25 PM

Troglodytes can burrow under walls.

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Alon
Alon


Adventuring Hero
posted March 27, 2020 12:17 AM

Ooh, yes, that's way better than climbing.
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted March 27, 2020 12:38 AM
Edited by FirePaladin at 00:38, 27 Mar 2020.

You also finally gave the zombies a role

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Alon
Alon


Adventuring Hero
posted March 27, 2020 01:55 AM
Edited by Alon at 01:57, 27 Mar 2020.

So, I wrote this last year as a fanciful RTS design, and I actually tried working out how each unit of the 5 factions I made could be used in each matchup, so that for each unit and for each faction, there's something in the faction that the unit counters and something that counters the unit. (Feel free to cannibalize this for a TBS. I didn't get around to writing the barbarian faction's units, or the dragonborn faction's dragon/lizardpeople/w/e. But the endless kiting horse archers need to do to counter mass pike doesn't work in a TBS, and splash isn't the hard counter to massed cheap units when units are stacked.)

Re zombies in H3: the problem is that they're slow and, unlike pikemen, not protecting anything because the town has no low-level shooters. So you want to give them a reason to be good, either through adding in skeleton archers or through giving them abilities common in zombie horror like converting units they kill into zombies or climbing walls in sieges, or ideally both.

EDIT: if you have questions about the linked unit table, shoot them - some tactics there are nontrivial, for example monks fully heal an allied unit so they're best when paired with high-HP units like cavalry, but those high-HP units are fast and having to slow down for the monk to keep up reduces their mobility.
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted March 27, 2020 12:01 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 12:02, 27 Mar 2020.

The monks who fully heal units remind me of the Priests (who look like H3 Zealots) from King's Bounty, who do just the same. And then there are Inquisitors (red Zealots-looking), who have Resurrection instead of Heal and also a blessing against Demons and Undead. The later are almost the only unit to be able to resurrect highest tier troops in that game.

Edit: The battles in KB are kinda the same as in HoMM, only the arena is a little smaller, units have less speed, but many activated abilities.

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LizardWizard
LizardWizard

Tavern Dweller
posted March 28, 2020 12:00 PM
Edited by LizardWizard at 12:03, 28 Mar 2020.

FirePaladin

I have no problem with Big Smoke, just couldn't understand why being a Gta player excluding anyone from enjoying Homm as well.

Also, I couldn't find the exact one Damage Calculator I mentioned yet, but will keep on searching!


Alon

These are great ideas! I am going to think about it more deeply, I prefer both the unique siege machines and that certain units having 'siege skills'.
Also, an other idea: what if repair of walls and towers would not be "automatic", but costs some resources? This feature could broaden the overall strategic opportunities, for example it would make more risky capturing an enemy castle for the attacker if he/she is short on supplies.

Also, please note that after the suggestions of FirePaladin I've already made minor changes to line-ups. Cyclopes are back to Barbarians (Behemoths are level 5 neutrals), where they always belonged, Beastmasters now have the Chimaera. (And also, Lamia are replaced by Hags / Witches for the Dark Lord.)
From the Beastmaster line-up the Mokele / Thunder Lizard could be a "siege beast", I was already thinking about that the 'immune to slow' ability could be rather 'unstoppable', which means that besides being immune to the spell Slow, these great lizards while taking damage from Quicksand, or from moats, don't lose their movement and can go on. (Obviously this won't apply to Force Field, Fire Wall...)

Regarding Skeletons and Zombies, if the alternative upgrades like in H5 ToE would be included, the Skeleton Bowman could be of course the alternative. And while the Zombie is slow for sure, the Mutant Zombie isn't.
However, I think the skill you mentioned is way too OP, Homm2 Ghosts had this power and it was always game-breaker if you were lucky enough to have some Ghosts in your army...

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted March 28, 2020 12:21 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 12:23, 28 Mar 2020.

LizardWizard said:
FirePaladin

I have no problem with Big Smoke, just couldn't understand why being a Gta player excluding anyone from enjoying Homm as well.

Also, I couldn't find the exact one Damage Calculator I mentioned yet, but will keep on searching!


Alon

These are great ideas! I am going to think about it more deeply, I prefer both the unique siege machines and that certain units having 'siege skills'.
Also, an other idea: what if repair of walls and towers would not be "automatic", but costs some resources? This feature could broaden the overall strategic opportunities, for example it would make more risky capturing an enemy castle for the attacker if he/she is short on supplies.

Also, please note that after the suggestions of FirePaladin I've already made minor changes to line-ups. Cyclopes are back to Barbarians (Behemoths are level 5 neutrals), where they always belonged, Beastmasters now have the Chimaera. (And also, Lamia are replaced by Hags / Witches for the Dark Lord.)
From the Beastmaster line-up the Mokele / Thunder Lizard could be a "siege beast", I was already thinking about that the 'immune to slow' ability could be rather 'unstoppable', which means that besides being immune to the spell Slow, these great lizards while taking damage from Quicksand, or from moats, don't lose their movement and can go on. (Obviously this won't apply to Force Field, Fire Wall...)

Regarding Skeletons and Zombies, if the alternative upgrades like in H5 ToE would be included, the Skeleton Bowman could be of course the alternative. And while the Zombie is slow for sure, the Mutant Zombie isn't.
However, I think the skill you mentioned is way too OP, Homm2 Ghosts had this power and it was always game-breaker if you were lucky enough to have some Ghosts in your army...


Regarding the "converting" skill, they could only convert just a little amount of certain humanoid units, so if we kill, for example, 20 pikemen, all with 15 hp, and zombies too have 15 hp, then we would get only 4 new zombies (1/5 ratio).

Edit: Ghosts in KB had such an ability too, but there was a leadership limit, so you could sometimes get more ghosts than you can lead (after that, they start attacking anyone).

There's also the option to only let the numbers grow by a certain number/percent from the original.

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Alon
Alon


Adventuring Hero
posted March 28, 2020 06:22 PM

LizardWizard said:
Also, an other idea: what if repair of walls and towers would not be "automatic", but costs some resources? This feature could broaden the overall strategic opportunities, for example it would make more risky capturing an enemy castle for the attacker if he/she is short on supplies.


YES. (It's standard in RTSes - Starcraft, Red Alert, and Age of Empires all have it.)

Strategically, this makes harassment sieges a reasonable tactic. If the barbarian hero has the ability to run away more or less for free, the cyclopes can throw rocks at castle walls and retreat. Not really how LotR works (Sauron isn't patient enough to fight a war of attrition and that's how Aragorn beats him), and not how nomads historically fought, but if we accept the Heroes conceit that sieges involve attacking city walls rather than starving the city out, then it should be part of the repertoire of the same faction that has horse archers.

Quote:
Also, please note that after the suggestions of FirePaladin I've already made minor changes to line-ups. Cyclopes are back to Barbarians (Behemoths are level 5 neutrals), where they always belonged, Beastmasters now have the Chimaera. (And also, Lamia are replaced by Hags / Witches for the Dark Lord.)


I feel kind of weird about the idea of a Dark Lord/Inferno town, just because I don't have a good feel for what units should be like. The Western devil is historically depicted as tricky, but nothing about the town screams "trickster" to me. Other than the cerberus, every unit in the H3 Inferno lineup looks like a random name with abilities selected for balance, like how Endless Legend's factions feel pretty random rather than thematic.

Quote:
Regarding Skeletons and Zombies, if the alternative upgrades like in H5 ToE would be included, the Skeleton Bowman could be of course the alternative. And while the Zombie is slow for sure, the Mutant Zombie isn't.
However, I think the skill you mentioned is way too OP, Homm2 Ghosts had this power and it was always game-breaker if you were lucky enough to have some Ghosts in your army...


Yeah, so you make zombies individually weak. Like, zergling weak: strength comes exclusively out of sheer numbers. It's already in the feel of the town to have endless disposable units.

Also, the conversion should be on a 1-to-1 (or 1-to-2, w/e) unit basis, not HP basis. It means there's a real difference in gameplay between large stacks of weak units (which turn into zombie hordes) and small stacks of strong units. The stacked units of Heroes are otherwise not good for the elite vs. spammer distinction.

This means that stronger units are just better counters to zombies than weaker units. In early game you fight zombies by sniping at them with archers, but by mid-game, if the zombies get faster with upgrades or spells or the necromancer hero has ghosts to tie up archers, you have to attack with melee units, and you'd rather give the necromancer 5 cavaliers to turn into zombies than 30 pikemen.

(By the way: this takedown of the Battle of Winterfell says that horse archer harassment should work very well against zombies. In a necromancer vs. barbarian matchup, horse archers would delete pure zombie armies, so the necromancer player would use other unit comps, like zombies + skeleton archers, higher-tier units like ghosts, heavy spellcasting to tie up the horse archers, etc.)
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theSilent
theSilent

Tavern Dweller
posted May 01, 2020 04:18 PM

LizardWizard said:
Hey fellow heroes!

- Battlefield is hexagonal




In your opinion, what advantages and disadvantages does the hexagonal battleground have? And what advantages and disadvantages does the square battleground have?
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted May 01, 2020 04:28 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 16:30, 01 May 2020.

@Alon

Devils with no retal, Efreet Sultans that reflect damage, area attack for Magogs and raising Demons from dead allies (gruesome) isn't tricky enough for you?

@theSilent

It's nicer visually and somewhat more complex. Technically, newer HoMM games use the hexagonal model too for attacks, but not for movement or visuals.
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"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."

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Alon
Alon


Adventuring Hero
posted May 01, 2020 07:33 PM

FirePaladin said:
@Alon

Devils with no retal, Efreet Sultans that reflect damage, area attack for Magogs and raising Demons from dead allies (gruesome) isn't tricky enough for you?


Afarit's damage reflection works, sure. The others... not really? When I think of how tricky the devil is, I think of deals, or of sapping people's will to fight back. So I'd expect something like mind magic, like charm (to get people off the battlefield) or berserk (to get the other side to fight itself), or maybe curse.
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted May 01, 2020 07:38 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 19:41, 01 May 2020.

Alon said:
FirePaladin said:
@Alon

Devils with no retal, Efreet Sultans that reflect damage, area attack for Magogs and raising Demons from dead allies (gruesome) isn't tricky enough for you?


Afarit's damage reflection works, sure. The others... not really? When I think of how tricky the devil is, I think of deals, or of sapping people's will to fight back. So I'd expect something like mind magic, like charm (to get people off the battlefield) or berserk (to get the other side to fight itself), or maybe curse.


But maybe through some kind of charming presence he makes you to not retaliate. That's what I wanted to say. And not all demons are necessarily tricky, more like dirty. And who knows, maybe the Devils do sap the enemies' will to counter-attack, but it's never explained in the game.
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"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted May 01, 2020 08:06 PM

theSilent said:
LizardWizard said:
Hey fellow heroes!

- Battlefield is hexagonal




In your opinion, what advantages and disadvantages does the hexagonal battleground have? And what advantages and disadvantages does the square battleground have?


Hexagonal means that every adjacent tile is the same distance away from that tile. With a square tile, the diagonal adjacent tiles are essentially 1.4 times as far away as the directly adjacent tiles.
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LucPatenaude
LucPatenaude


Famous Hero
Owning all 7 Heroes games
posted May 02, 2020 02:15 PM

Excellent explanation Maurice! Like as if I did not know that already, Hmmm.

The only thing that is to fixed or, even, properly made is the completely randomized map generator just like in the Heroes 3 Complete Edition.

In Heroes III Complete, the RMG could very well put one single opponent computer player on an island made small map and, not on a tiny sized map or, put 8 very small islands with 8 villages that includes neutral villages with or without forts pre-built. Out of these 8 islands + 8 villages has a possibility of only 4 or 5 real active enemy factions(you = 1 village + 5 computer villages with each their own factions each + 2 neutral villages that has no real military significances).

Why can't we have such an advanced RMG for the next Edition of Heroes of Might and Magic? No more land locked maps with a possibility of a whole wide world size mapping generation capabilities. Making a new generation type of game that uses all facets of the 64 bits processing abilities of both Windows 10 and Apple O.S. 10.x Operating Systems is quite the pre-requisites of a long lasting use of such strategy game.

Since, all the hardware of our current PCs are so advanced and, in full 64 bit readiness + device drivers that are 100% 64 bit programming, game making in this regard, makes the game way more compliant with the PC's hardware and firmware.

That way, setting the game up upon installing such game, will become an instant hit and ease. Loading the game would become instantaneous and pleasant for all these very impatient game players out there.

Enjoy the new month of May 2020, BTW!


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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted May 04, 2020 02:06 PM

Btw, for those wondering about unit sizes on hexagons, look here:


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veteran_player
veteran_player


Hired Hero
posted May 09, 2020 11:06 PM
Edited by veteran_player at 17:11, 17 May 2020.

competing thread author...

I like these points... but My ideas/vision is better!

J/K!

P.S.
Brainstorming as a community, we can probably kick-start the development of a new game. It must be our collective task/purpose! Thank you for contributing!
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Fangovich
Fangovich

Tavern Dweller
posted May 17, 2020 06:11 PM

Hey guys! I found this thread and got interested in it, so I decided to share my views on some points made here and to propose something else that the game should have. This is my first reaction on this forum, so I hope I'm doing it right.

> 9 factions (3-3-3), 1 hero per faction.
Personally, I don't agree with this. The good-neutral-bad is a general concept I don't like since I believe good and bad are relevant to what you believe in. Saying that Necropolis is bad is true to someone who follows the Light, but someone who is a Necromancer himself won't say he is bad about himself. Neutrality is something I can get behind, but still, even when someone says he is objective, he is pretty much subjective and just believes to be objective. That said, I kinda like HoMM3 33 concept. Just not the good-bad axis.

About one hero per faction, I find that quite limiting in hero-building. Having two, three hero types per faction makes it at least a bit interesting, because that gives you usually at least two (three) ways to have a great hero. Having a single type would make one build superior and others not so much. If there was a way to make this one type neutral, so you could give them adequate specialization based on skills, that would be better.

> Academy on the sand
I like that. Ashan Academy is based on the medieval Middle East that was the centre of science and progress. Though I would be even happier if some factions could have had more native terrains. In the end, there can be sand-based Academy (nation of X) and snow-based Academy (nation of Y). It would be interesting (yet a bit limiting) if heroes themselves were given either sand-terrain bonus or snow-terrain bonus. That goes for other factions, too.


Now, what the game really needs is a viable multiplayer. I know that you're talking the game mechanics and multiplayer seems surplus here at this point, but if the upcoming game should succeed, it needs to be played a lot besides campaigns and skirmish. If the game had fast-paced and rewarding multiplayer (that would open the doors for ladders and, later on, e-sport league), it could become huge. From what I've seen, many 1v1 H3 multiplayer games last for over 4 hours. That is good, because it gives you a lot of time to decide what to do next. What to conquer, what to sacrifice and so on. Though it is not that good for a spectator. Ideal game (to be fun to watch and esport ready) should have 90 minutes at max. And I believe that, with simultaneous turns, it gives you enough time to prepare for the final battle. The multiplayer could also have several modes - besides "destroy your enemy", it could have "capture the town and hold it for X days" and whatnot.
The key element would probably be that the map would be mirrored - divided in two halves, where the distance between the Capitol to (let's say an Ore mine) would be the same on both halves. There could also be map that is not mirrored, but each half would favour a certain faction.

Anyways, feel free to share your points and your views, I'd love to hear what you think about it!

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Alon
Alon


Adventuring Hero
posted May 18, 2020 04:34 AM

Welcome! (I say, only having been here a couple months.)

Fangovich said:
About one hero per faction, I find that quite limiting in hero-building. Having two, three hero types per faction makes it at least a bit interesting, because that gives you usually at least two (three) ways to have a great hero. Having a single type would make one build superior and others not so much. If there was a way to make this one type neutral, so you could give them adequate specialization based on skills, that would be better.


It depends on what it even means to be a knight/ranger/whatever. If it's a hero-specific skill, as in H5, then this can be tailored to a variety of builds. For example, if the barbarian hero can retreat from combat and keep the army intact, then this can be used as Mongol fight-and-retreat attrition tactics, but it can be equally used just to gather information about the whereabouts of the enemy heroes and their army composition, allowing the towns to produce the appropriate counter.

Quote:
> Academy on the sand
I like that. Ashan Academy is based on the medieval Middle East that was the centre of science and progress. Though I would be even happier if some factions could have had more native terrains. In the end, there can be sand-based Academy (nation of X) and snow-based Academy (nation of Y). It would be interesting (yet a bit limiting) if heroes themselves were given either sand-terrain bonus or snow-terrain bonus. That goes for other factions, too.


I've been toying with the idea of going even further and replacing thematic factions with factions based on civilizations and their mythologies. So you get a Western faction that has medieval European unit types plus creatures from Greek, medieval, and Early Modern mythologies, like centaurs, griffins, angels, elves, and elementals. You also get an Indian faction that has elephantry, nagas, rakshasas, etc.; a Middle Eastern faction that has djinn, rocs, behemoths, heavy emphasis on cavalry as in the Caliphate; and so on.


Quote:
Now, what the game really needs is a viable multiplayer. I know that you're talking the game mechanics and multiplayer seems surplus here at this point, but if the upcoming game should succeed, it needs to be played a lot besides campaigns and skirmish. If the game had fast-paced and rewarding multiplayer (that would open the doors for ladders and, later on, e-sport league), it could become huge. From what I've seen, many 1v1 H3 multiplayer games last for over 4 hours. That is good, because it gives you a lot of time to decide what to do next. What to conquer, what to sacrifice and so on. Though it is not that good for a spectator. Ideal game (to be fun to watch and esport ready) should have 90 minutes at max. And I believe that, with simultaneous turns, it gives you enough time to prepare for the final battle. The multiplayer could also have several modes - besides "destroy your enemy", it could have "capture the town and hold it for X days" and whatnot.


Yes. And my only disagreement is that even 90 minutes is too long. In Brood War games lasted 30-45 minutes if memory serves, and in Starcraft 2 they've sped things up to be more fun to watch, so that 20 minutes is already considered the ultra-late game.
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