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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: My ideas/vision for Homm8
Thread: My ideas/vision for Homm8 This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV
FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Famous Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted March 25, 2020 08:44 PM

I meant THE Damage Calculator (the one made for HotA and stuff, but the name is kinda improper since it also calculates value and others), but thanks anyway.

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Alon
Alon


Hired Hero
posted March 26, 2020 07:14 PM

Okay, silly idea, inspired by this Twitter exchange: why not give each faction different siege units, instead of having the same catapult?

Knight: the usual catapult, a ballista to help fire over walls, archers firing over walls (maybe even at the arrow towers if they're upgraded), maaaaaaybe militia/pikemen can turn into a battering ram squad at the gate

Barbarian: looking at LotR orcs for inspiration, there might be some catapults but also goblins and orcs climbing walls and taking severe damage while doing so, trolls throwing rocks at walls and gates, and maybe behemoths bashing in gates too

Ranger: multiple flying units, elves firing over walls, maybe treants bashing walls like the ents' assault on Isengard; hero spells include earthquakes damaging walls

Warlock: many flying units, and maybe the troglodytes can climb over walls taking immense casualties but whatever, they're cannon fodder

Wizard: flying and ranged units, but the golems could bash walls and the gremlins could also act as a sapper squad; hero spells include a large repertoire of siege spells

Necromancer: from the Twitter thread, a creature that basically spews disease (like the H4 venom spawn), and on the adventure map could trigger something like the halving of creatures coming from a week of plague in H3, and in addition, zombies and skeletons could climb walls as in zombie horror flicks

Dark lord: so many fliers and ranged units, plus many relevant spells, e.g. direct damage spells firing over walls

Beastmaster: the harpy specifically is an incredibly strong siege unit on either side, and the cyclops could also attack walls as in H3

Sorceress: the kappa jumps over walls, the corsair presumably can scale walls and not take as much damage as an orc oro troglodyte or zombie, and maybe the water-dwelling units can undermine moats somehow
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Famous Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted March 26, 2020 07:25 PM

Troglodytes can burrow under walls.

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Alon
Alon


Hired Hero
posted March 27, 2020 12:17 AM

Ooh, yes, that's way better than climbing.
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Famous Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted March 27, 2020 12:38 AM
Edited by FirePaladin at 00:38, 27 Mar 2020.

You also finally gave the zombies a role

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Alon
Alon


Hired Hero
posted March 27, 2020 01:55 AM
Edited by Alon at 01:57, 27 Mar 2020.

So, I wrote this last year as a fanciful RTS design, and I actually tried working out how each unit of the 5 factions I made could be used in each matchup, so that for each unit and for each faction, there's something in the faction that the unit counters and something that counters the unit. (Feel free to cannibalize this for a TBS. I didn't get around to writing the barbarian faction's units, or the dragonborn faction's dragon/lizardpeople/w/e. But the endless kiting horse archers need to do to counter mass pike doesn't work in a TBS, and splash isn't the hard counter to massed cheap units when units are stacked.)

Re zombies in H3: the problem is that they're slow and, unlike pikemen, not protecting anything because the town has no low-level shooters. So you want to give them a reason to be good, either through adding in skeleton archers or through giving them abilities common in zombie horror like converting units they kill into zombies or climbing walls in sieges, or ideally both.

EDIT: if you have questions about the linked unit table, shoot them - some tactics there are nontrivial, for example monks fully heal an allied unit so they're best when paired with high-HP units like cavalry, but those high-HP units are fast and having to slow down for the monk to keep up reduces their mobility.
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Famous Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted March 27, 2020 12:01 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 12:02, 27 Mar 2020.

The monks who fully heal units remind me of the Priests (who look like H3 Zealots) from King's Bounty, who do just the same. And then there are Inquisitors (red Zealots-looking), who have Resurrection instead of Heal and also a blessing against Demons and Undead. The later are almost the only unit to be able to resurrect highest tier troops in that game.

Edit: The battles in KB are kinda the same as in HoMM, only the arena is a little smaller, units have less speed, but many activated abilities.

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LizardWizard
LizardWizard

Tavern Dweller
posted March 28, 2020 12:00 PM
Edited by LizardWizard at 12:03, 28 Mar 2020.

FirePaladin

I have no problem with Big Smoke, just couldn't understand why being a Gta player excluding anyone from enjoying Homm as well.

Also, I couldn't find the exact one Damage Calculator I mentioned yet, but will keep on searching!


Alon

These are great ideas! I am going to think about it more deeply, I prefer both the unique siege machines and that certain units having 'siege skills'.
Also, an other idea: what if repair of walls and towers would not be "automatic", but costs some resources? This feature could broaden the overall strategic opportunities, for example it would make more risky capturing an enemy castle for the attacker if he/she is short on supplies.

Also, please note that after the suggestions of FirePaladin I've already made minor changes to line-ups. Cyclopes are back to Barbarians (Behemoths are level 5 neutrals), where they always belonged, Beastmasters now have the Chimaera. (And also, Lamia are replaced by Hags / Witches for the Dark Lord.)
From the Beastmaster line-up the Mokele / Thunder Lizard could be a "siege beast", I was already thinking about that the 'immune to slow' ability could be rather 'unstoppable', which means that besides being immune to the spell Slow, these great lizards while taking damage from Quicksand, or from moats, don't lose their movement and can go on. (Obviously this won't apply to Force Field, Fire Wall...)

Regarding Skeletons and Zombies, if the alternative upgrades like in H5 ToE would be included, the Skeleton Bowman could be of course the alternative. And while the Zombie is slow for sure, the Mutant Zombie isn't.
However, I think the skill you mentioned is way too OP, Homm2 Ghosts had this power and it was always game-breaker if you were lucky enough to have some Ghosts in your army...

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Famous Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted March 28, 2020 12:21 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 12:23, 28 Mar 2020.

LizardWizard said:
FirePaladin

I have no problem with Big Smoke, just couldn't understand why being a Gta player excluding anyone from enjoying Homm as well.

Also, I couldn't find the exact one Damage Calculator I mentioned yet, but will keep on searching!


Alon

These are great ideas! I am going to think about it more deeply, I prefer both the unique siege machines and that certain units having 'siege skills'.
Also, an other idea: what if repair of walls and towers would not be "automatic", but costs some resources? This feature could broaden the overall strategic opportunities, for example it would make more risky capturing an enemy castle for the attacker if he/she is short on supplies.

Also, please note that after the suggestions of FirePaladin I've already made minor changes to line-ups. Cyclopes are back to Barbarians (Behemoths are level 5 neutrals), where they always belonged, Beastmasters now have the Chimaera. (And also, Lamia are replaced by Hags / Witches for the Dark Lord.)
From the Beastmaster line-up the Mokele / Thunder Lizard could be a "siege beast", I was already thinking about that the 'immune to slow' ability could be rather 'unstoppable', which means that besides being immune to the spell Slow, these great lizards while taking damage from Quicksand, or from moats, don't lose their movement and can go on. (Obviously this won't apply to Force Field, Fire Wall...)

Regarding Skeletons and Zombies, if the alternative upgrades like in H5 ToE would be included, the Skeleton Bowman could be of course the alternative. And while the Zombie is slow for sure, the Mutant Zombie isn't.
However, I think the skill you mentioned is way too OP, Homm2 Ghosts had this power and it was always game-breaker if you were lucky enough to have some Ghosts in your army...


Regarding the "converting" skill, they could only convert just a little amount of certain humanoid units, so if we kill, for example, 20 pikemen, all with 15 hp, and zombies too have 15 hp, then we would get only 4 new zombies (1/5 ratio).

Edit: Ghosts in KB had such an ability too, but there was a leadership limit, so you could sometimes get more ghosts than you can lead (after that, they start attacking anyone).

There's also the option to only let the numbers grow by a certain number/percent from the original.

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Alon
Alon


Hired Hero
posted March 28, 2020 06:22 PM

LizardWizard said:
Also, an other idea: what if repair of walls and towers would not be "automatic", but costs some resources? This feature could broaden the overall strategic opportunities, for example it would make more risky capturing an enemy castle for the attacker if he/she is short on supplies.


YES. (It's standard in RTSes - Starcraft, Red Alert, and Age of Empires all have it.)

Strategically, this makes harassment sieges a reasonable tactic. If the barbarian hero has the ability to run away more or less for free, the cyclopes can throw rocks at castle walls and retreat. Not really how LotR works (Sauron isn't patient enough to fight a war of attrition and that's how Aragorn beats him), and not how nomads historically fought, but if we accept the Heroes conceit that sieges involve attacking city walls rather than starving the city out, then it should be part of the repertoire of the same faction that has horse archers.

Quote:
Also, please note that after the suggestions of FirePaladin I've already made minor changes to line-ups. Cyclopes are back to Barbarians (Behemoths are level 5 neutrals), where they always belonged, Beastmasters now have the Chimaera. (And also, Lamia are replaced by Hags / Witches for the Dark Lord.)


I feel kind of weird about the idea of a Dark Lord/Inferno town, just because I don't have a good feel for what units should be like. The Western devil is historically depicted as tricky, but nothing about the town screams "trickster" to me. Other than the cerberus, every unit in the H3 Inferno lineup looks like a random name with abilities selected for balance, like how Endless Legend's factions feel pretty random rather than thematic.

Quote:
Regarding Skeletons and Zombies, if the alternative upgrades like in H5 ToE would be included, the Skeleton Bowman could be of course the alternative. And while the Zombie is slow for sure, the Mutant Zombie isn't.
However, I think the skill you mentioned is way too OP, Homm2 Ghosts had this power and it was always game-breaker if you were lucky enough to have some Ghosts in your army...


Yeah, so you make zombies individually weak. Like, zergling weak: strength comes exclusively out of sheer numbers. It's already in the feel of the town to have endless disposable units.

Also, the conversion should be on a 1-to-1 (or 1-to-2, w/e) unit basis, not HP basis. It means there's a real difference in gameplay between large stacks of weak units (which turn into zombie hordes) and small stacks of strong units. The stacked units of Heroes are otherwise not good for the elite vs. spammer distinction.

This means that stronger units are just better counters to zombies than weaker units. In early game you fight zombies by sniping at them with archers, but by mid-game, if the zombies get faster with upgrades or spells or the necromancer hero has ghosts to tie up archers, you have to attack with melee units, and you'd rather give the necromancer 5 cavaliers to turn into zombies than 30 pikemen.

(By the way: this takedown of the Battle of Winterfell says that horse archer harassment should work very well against zombies. In a necromancer vs. barbarian matchup, horse archers would delete pure zombie armies, so the necromancer player would use other unit comps, like zombies + skeleton archers, higher-tier units like ghosts, heavy spellcasting to tie up the horse archers, etc.)
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