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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 14, 2020 06:54 AM |
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Sure it does. Tell me, blizz. Being from colorado and all, have you lived in or near low income housing? Have you ever even seen a ghetto outside tv?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 14, 2020 09:08 AM |
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Salamandre said:
Calling me and fred rats, what an educated dude, respect.
*****************
You are just an hypocrite, you posted a link from Clinton News Network with a "gotcha" headline and added "no comment". Then ask others to not polemic?
Of course the first thing I did was to search for video and description of the incident, and that was enough.
You want to create a protected class, based on color. Whatever they do, they never deserve accountability. Such misleading headlines create the hate and you are part of.
I do - it's a known saying, and in this case it's true. If you'd care, you'd see that in this case the media don't matter, since the case is clear and no one actually argues. Atlanta Police Chief has resigned and the cop who fired the short has been, well, fired. What happened is actually undisputed. The guy has had a couple too many and slept in a car in the lane of a drive-through restaurant, so that other cars had to drive around it. The cops (two white cops) were called, determined the guy wasn't sober and wanted to arrest him. He resisted, managed to snatch a taser from one of the cops and fled. It seems he may have a pointed the taser and was shot.
The real question here is actually, why the cops wanted to ARREST the guy in the first place. It was his car; he wasn't driving it anywhere, but just sleeping in it. Sure, he MIGHT just have driven it there under influence, but everything the cops were seeing was a man not sober, sleeping in his own car at a not so great, but also not dangerous place. Serve-and-protect police would simply have had driven the car off to a place where it wouldn't stand in the way, taken the car keys and sent the man home, telling him to come to the precinct and get his keys the next day. In a small town (and if it had been in another country with exclusively white or exclusively back guys) the cops might even have given him a ride home.
But no. As if the prisons and courts wouldn't be full enough anyway with petty nonsense, they have to arrest him.
And you, I see, are still not tired of your racist denial. I've said it a couple of times and I will say it again:
People like you don't deserve any respect whatsoever. The only thing they deserve is to be called what they are are at any opportunity to expose them.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 14, 2020 10:11 AM |
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Let me recapitulate the content of the video we all saw : black guy, high on drugs, parks his car in middle of road, causing customers to call the police. When police comes, he resists arrest, he engages fight, he punches cops, he hurts one, he picks his weapon, he runs away, he turns on the cop, he uses weapon against the cop. Is there something worse that you can do when dealing with police?
Then media trying its best to start a race war:
CNN headlines: black guy is shoot by white cops for sleeping in his car.
Your only concern is why they tried to arrest him. Not a word about all the fuss he did and the logical consequences, attack on police forces + murder attempt on police forces, which proves that such issues are not caused by race, but by stupidity.
And you exposed nothing but your demagogy which defines now the laughable ignoramus you became.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 14, 2020 11:13 AM |
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You are yet again trying to warp the facts round so that they fit into your racist worldview. What ACTUALLY happend, and what you can read everywhere in the internet now is this:
The owner of a drive-through restaurant called the police because their was a car parked in their their drive-through lane, so that the cars wanting to drive through had to drive around it, with a man in it, sleeping.
The cops came, woke him and made a couple of sobriety tests which he didn't pass. He wasn't high, he was drunk. Obviously the guy didn't resist the tests. Then they wanted to arrest him, which is what he resisted against.
There has been no headline saying that the police shot a sleeping man, nor are the media trying their best to state a race war, that is just your imagination.
And, yes, I'm wondering why they were trying to arrest him. For reasons I cited. Because cops shouldn't (and in Europe don't) arrest people for every kind of silly crap. That's EXACTLY the problem and what led to the actual situation.
Once the cops are on you, they try to nail you for something - and that's especially true when you are black.
In Europe - between whites - they had taken the keys and told the guy he should come the next day to the precinct to get his keys, and when he did they'd given him a good dressing-down and let him pay 50 bucks or something for parking where you can't park a car.
And because of this the chief of police in Atlanta resigned and the cop who shot has been fired. This after this incident 14 days ago.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted June 14, 2020 11:15 AM |
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Blizzardboy said:
@fred79
The criminal justice system is substantially biased against blacks and latinx and this does indeed create resentment. The main issue being talked about, which is to defund/dismantle/reform police departments to better serve communities, will disproportionately benefit blacks and latinx since these communities are more deeply affected, but it will ultimately benefit everybody.
Since the criminal justice system also consists of prosecutors, court, etc. I'd like to know if you are only considering the police when you write about the criminal justice system which is biased against specific groups of people?
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 14, 2020 11:28 AM |
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The guy was drunk, he had obviously drove to get to the drive-thru. That's a criminal offense anywhere. If he, like so many people breaking the law, had just complied he would have done his time, paid his fine, and then went about his life like an everyday joe. Instead, he assaulted a police officer and took the weapon he would have used to subdue the intoxicated man with non-lethal force. He then used the weapon on the officer. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Of course the cop didn't have to shoot him, but that situation was escalating, and quickly. The cop did his best to get a bad situation under control, and the guy ended up getting shot.
You guys act like these people the cops have been dealing with are angels. Your media plays this up; by showing smiling graduation pics or baby pics or whatever they have to do to make the person a martyr, instead of another dumbass violent criminal.
Whhat gets me is, cops have shot/killed plenty of actually innocent people, but those people the media don't hype up. You sjw's STILL eat up the narrative, regardless. Displaying your clear bias against whites.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 14, 2020 11:40 AM |
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 14, 2020 11:47 AM |
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Edited by artu at 13:22, 14 Jun 2020.
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@Sal
Look, he did not make the wisest choices when things escalated but they shouldnt have in the first place.
1- He was drunk and the cops knew he was drunk. So they should expect him to act stupid. He had enough sense not to drive drunk, pull over, so it’s very unlikely he’d turn out to be a violent criminal or something.
2- If you are a member of a group constantly profiled and harrased by law enforcement, an additional “screw this, I (we) had enough“ aggression comes in play. Of course, the normal reaction would be to think “just cooperate and all this misunderstanding will resolve shortly” but if it happens too many times, people get fed up. Back in the 1990’s when I had long hair, it was still a little tabooish in here to have long hair for males, and they used to ask for my ID a lot. It becomes uncomfortable. Now, as upper middle class teenager, I knew once they did the background check, things would be fine, so it was not much of a big deal. But that is also not the case for minorities in the US. Once they get arrested, it’s a snowload of inconvenience that follows, they can get fired from their jobs for not showing up, it becomes harder for them to find a job if they have none, so it’s not just a matter of “just cooperate and all will follow nicely.”
3- Racism is not just about becoming a Ku Klux Klan member and declaring supremacy, that is the top of the pyramid, your hardcore racist. Sometimes it is just profiling based on a stereotype. It doesnt even have to be deliberate. We are all hardwired to do that to a degree, it takes conscience to reform it: Sapolsky
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 14, 2020 11:53 AM |
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@Sal
You do realize that in that Chris Rock video, the part about having a white friend with you is sarcasm on racial profiling, right?
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 14, 2020 11:58 AM |
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 14, 2020 12:54 PM |
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fred79 said:
The guy was drunk, he had obviously drove to get to the drive-thru. That's a criminal offense anywhere.
Obviously? In every country with law and order you'll have to prove that. Obviously. And that's what I mean. The car is his. No crime reported, no traffic victim anywhere. So there is a guy sleeping in his own car, NOT SOBER (as opposed to completely drunk), standing at a place where he is a hinderance. Quote:
If he, like so many people breaking the law, had just complied he would have done his time,
Doing time for that? Are you completely out of your mind? You do time for sitting not sober in your own car? That's what I mean - you shouldn't be arrested for that crap. Take his keys, send him home, ask him to come back next day, charge him a fine, case closed, no beaurocracy, no paperwork, no court case. Instead - criminalize everyone. Why are you so freaking keen over there to make everyone a criminal? It's as if you get paid to send people to jail ... oh, wait...
Quote:
You guys act like these people the cops have been dealing with are angels. Your media plays this up; by showing smiling graduation pics or baby pics or whatever they have to do to make the person a martyr, instead of another dumbass violent criminal.
Whhat gets me is, cops have shot/killed plenty of actually innocent people, but those people the media don't hype up. You sjw's STILL eat up the narrative, regardless. Displaying your clear bias against whites.
That is of course rubbish.
See, there are two problems: 1) Your cops are crap, try to criminalize people for nonsense, and they are brutal at that; 2) Your society is still racist (as it is still chauvinist, although slightly less; and before you say so, not only yours, but your country has this special history with blacks); 1 and 2 together means, that especially blacks, but also hispanics, are treated with a lot more bias by said police force, resulting in all those sad statistics and "accidents".
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 14, 2020 01:19 PM |
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If the arrest is abusive, you fill a complaint but first you act like a responsible citizen. The moment you jump on a cop, beat him then take his weapon, your status radically changes and you deserve what's getting to you, mostly very bad things. This has a name: criminal and violent behavior. Any media who doesn't call that for what it is, is accomplice of the chaos following, riots and such. This video alone destroys all the bogus narrative "police shoots unarmed and innocent blacks". Actually the statistics are still 9 for one year, for 350 million police/public interactions. Zero percent.
This guy was a threat, seeing how he acts towards the end doesn't leave any doubt. Police are trained to identify threats and act accordingly.
You basically ask cops to interpret laws softer when the suspect is black. Therefore they will act harder on people other than black. This is racism and will never solve the real problems in the black community, which are the gang culture, drugs, early drop from schools, absence of fathers at 75% which leads to lack of proper education, + all the blah blah racism holds you back. It didn't hold back skilled blacks, there is enough evidence of that.
And no, this is not denial of racism, just denial of racism as major problem. There are many prominent blacks who clearly and repeatedly stated that racism isn't even in the first 100 problems the black community faces. Maybe is time to listen to them and change strategy. Or continue as now and prepare for civil war.
Because whites won't knell, only the weakest.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 14, 2020 01:35 PM |
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Are you under the impression that they are asked to kneel? What do you mean by that?
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted June 14, 2020 01:39 PM |
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@fred
I had a fairly sheltered childhood. We left our house and our cars in the driveway unlocked all of the time, etc. Mountains and trees and bears on the front lawn and stuff. I'm not originally from CO btw. I've lived all over the place, including in Albuquerque which is one of the worst cities in terms of crime and violent crime.
@sal
This violent mentality has been too prevalent in the USA for too long, and the result is a cycle of crime happening over and over again and a lack of respect for the police and for the criminal justice system at large.
Nobody is saying that the person in the video should have been fighting with the police, but the fact that he was gunned down while FLEEING from the police with a taser demonstrates an inexcusable lack of procedure and professionalism and sane policy. WHY does a country as developed as the USA have such a crappy way of dealing with crime? It has more financial resources than the vast majority Europe other than a few spots of extreme privilege and yet it delivers less results. USA needs to improve and start acting like an adult and that is why people are protesting. Protest was inevitable and it is a positive sign that it is happening. People that see current events as mostly negative don't realize that positive change and reform almost always happens with some hard events along the way.
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Blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted June 14, 2020 01:42 PM |
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artu said:
Are you under the impression that they are asked to kneel? What do you mean by that?
It's yet another strawman. If he had to respond to what people are actually saying he wouldn't have good answers, so he has to invent make-believe scenarios or post a video of a 20-year-old college kid saying something ridiculous and then use that as his defense.
The same thing happened during 'Me Too'. Women started talking about the issue of sexual harassment and sexual abuse and then conservative men started coming up with ridiculous strawman arguments. "What's going to happen next? You're going to cut my dick off because I smiled at a woman?". It doesn't actually answer the question. It's just avoiding and hiding from the issue.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted June 14, 2020 02:54 PM |
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@JJ and BB Thanks for allowing me to look at Candance Owens like that face deserves to looked upon...
If you keep defending this guy you are giving her reason. He assault the police officer and took his taser. Could his death been avoided? Possibly, but then the cops would be putting their own lives in serious danger to deescalate the situation. If in their place, I know what I would have done, do you?
To equate this incident with the deaths of Floyd, Rice and Garner is to make a disservice to the BLM cause. There are blacks in the wrong, too.
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Blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted June 14, 2020 03:07 PM |
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@bloodsucker
Instead of examining the issue from the perspective of who to blame, let's look at it in terms of policies and procedures and solutions.
The person isn't a hero. He is a person who was fighting with the police. I'll establish that first.
Now, on to the next question: should he have died? Was it justified to shoot him? Is it good policy & procedure that he was shot by the police after running away? Let's take this incident and expand it to a macro scale. Is that a constructive way of dealing with crime or does it create longer-lasting endemic problems? Is the video indicative of a wider problem and an over-reliance on lethal force? Are criminals people or are they things?
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted June 14, 2020 05:47 PM |
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A major factor is that the US police training is extremely varied and can be quite short. You can not expect similar skill set from police as you can in Europe.
For reference Finnish police college is three years and a bachelors degree. US can be 18 weeks in some states. A large part of that has to go to law and use of force due to necessity. In short US police is not on the same level as European police and US police from state A is not on the same level as from state B. That has to be actively kept in mind when comparing actions.
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Blizzardboy
Honorable
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Nerf Herder
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posted June 14, 2020 09:51 PM |
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Would you be satisfied with your police going through an 18 week program?
It's pointless to throw all the blame squarely on the backs of cops, but that is exactly why these conversations need to happen on a national level because we cant simultaneously demand professionalism among police while not actually providing them with a professional career.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 14, 2020 10:12 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 22:48, 14 Jun 2020.
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Blizzardboy said:
Instead of examining the issue from the perspective of who to blame, let's look at it in terms of policies and procedures and solutions.
The person isn't a hero. He is a person who was fighting with the police. I'll establish that first.
Now, on to the next question: should he have died? Was it justified to shoot him? Is it good policy & procedure that he was shot by the police after running away? Let's take this incident and expand it to a macro scale. Is that a constructive way of dealing with crime or does it create longer-lasting endemic problems? Is the video indicative of a wider problem and an over-reliance on lethal force? Are criminals people or are they things?
Are you serious right now? I honestly can't tell. You cannot in good faith claim you're simply assessing the situation anymore when you're so clearly betraying bias towards the criminal.
Let me start deconstructing this idea that I understand is driving your train of thought here - you believe that someone's right to live is above the law. You think that when someone does something as flagrant as fighting the police, they should still get away with their life in all cases. You are drawing an arbitrary line in your mind that makes undermining police authority sometimes acceptable. In reality, this is the key point constantly put under scrutiny, regardless of what specific case is being debated.
You start by saying:
Blizzardboy said:
Instead of examining the issue from the perspective of who to blame, let's look at it in terms of policies and procedures and solutions.
And my first thought is, why should I do that? Why should I give that to you? Is personal responsibility that irrelevant? It's actually very relevant. So you are trying to steer the focus to what suits your narrative better, calling us to not look at the entire problem, but just at a part of it.
But let's say we entertain that notion. What you're trying to find is the underlying problem and that's why you're bringing up policies, procedures and solutions. You think that the police being allowed to use that level of force is unjustified, that's the picture you're trying to paint. The real problem though is not complying with authority, in which case accountability, or "blame" as you say, is entirely relevant.
Then:
Blizzardboy said:
Now, on to the next question: should he have died?
I'll turn that question around in the same spirit: should he have lived above all else (including breaking the law)?
Blizzardboy said:
Was it justified to shoot him?
Was it unjustified? Who or what provides justification? Your better judgement?
Blizzardboy said:
Is it good policy & procedure that he was shot by the police after running away?
Is it good policy and procedure to let criminals get away?
Blizzardboy said:
Let's take this incident and expand it to a macro scale. Is that a constructive way of dealing with crime or does it create longer-lasting endemic problems?
Is "eliminating" problems a way to deal with problems when clearly one of the participants is unwilling to constructively cooperate?
Blizzardboy said:
Is the video indicative of a wider problem and an over-reliance on lethal force?
Is the video indicative of a wider problem where non-compliance with police authority is the main cause of reliance on lethal force?
Blizzardboy said:
Are criminals people or are they things?
Are you seriously asking that question?
I am honestly baffled about the way people think and handle these situations in the US. Around here, like Salamandre said earlier in the thread, if the police says get on the ground with your hands above your head, you execute. Personally, I do it for three main reasons: I understand and fear the consequences of my own actions; I understand the police has a right to exert authority over me; I love and actively pursue being a law-abiding citizen. The way it appears to me in the US is as if contesting police authority is the fist reaction people have. Why is that? How about you start from there? Have you ever considered that maybe, just maybe, the first link in that chain of cause and effect where someone ends up shot dead is in fact simply not listening to the police? Are you seriously putting policies, procedures under scrutiny first instead of the elephant in the room which is rampant non-compliance? Had he not resisted authority, he would've lived. Instead, he chose to resist arrest and escape authority, at a cost.
JollyJoker said:
The cops came, woke him and made a couple of sobriety tests which he didn't pass. He wasn't high, he was drunk. Obviously the guy didn't resist the tests. Then they wanted to arrest him, which is what he resisted against.
Do you not yet see the problem? Don't resist arrest! Getting arrested is abiding the law.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
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