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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: Dropping Resistance is a logical falacy
Thread: Dropping Resistance is a logical falacy This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
pizdabol
pizdabol


Hired Hero
posted September 21, 2020 02:13 AM
Edited by pizdabol at 02:19, 21 Sep 2020.

dropping Resistance was a logical falacy

That's the only major beef I've got with HotA (also Galthran, though that's pure sentiment, I can not argue about him being OP)

It was stated that Resistance got scrapped for being too "luck dependant" and the team supposedly wanted to eliminate that kind of randomness from the game (which is inherently random by nature anyway). That would be fine except for Luck and Morale which are pretty much the same in that perspective - both strong effects with simmilar triggering conditions. So why are Luck and Morale fine, but Resistance is not?

Also, does anybody willingly take Interference really?

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BTB
BTB


Known Hero
Moist & Creamy
posted September 21, 2020 02:57 AM

So, I'll preface this by saying that I don't really like Interference, either.

That said, I do understand the mentality behind it; they just don't really explain their stance very well (you either have good programming skills, good communication skills, but never both). It's not the fact that it's luck-based, but rather the severity of it. An extra turn or double damage is not equal to completely negating the effects of a spell cast on you, and that's to say nothing of the fact that both Morale and Luck cap at a fairly anemic 12.5% chance of occurrence whereas Resistance is effectively unlimited with a specialist Hero.

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Gandalf196
Gandalf196


Famous Hero
posted September 21, 2020 03:18 AM

BTB really hits the nail on the head when he writes about a missed turn when resistance triggers.
Indeed, a LOT of problems stem from the fact that you can only cast a spell per turn. Heroes V improved that a bit with its initiative system, but I feel that's not enough. If it were possible (I really doubt it is; must be hard-coded), nerfing all the spells while giving heroes many windows of opportunity (acordding to their magic skill, intelligence maybe?) to cast spells would make old resistance a viable skill once again, not to mention improving the dynamic of battles
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BTB
BTB


Known Hero
Moist & Creamy
posted September 21, 2020 03:47 AM

Resistance's big problem is that, due to its binary nature and high payoff, it has an extremely limited window of usability - too low and it's garbage, too high and it's extremely overpowered. So you don't really have a lot of wiggle room to play with.

Bearing that in mind, it's easy to see why the HotA devs decided to trash it.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted September 21, 2020 07:09 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 07:45, 21 Sep 2020.

I don't think this is "Logical" at all; dwarves still have the same kind of Resistance, as do unicorns,

Almost everything in the game is luck dependent, from damage to morale and luck bonuses. In fact, by adding negative luck, they are Enhancing randomness.

The only logical conclusion is that a main guy at HotA REALLY hates resistance. Maybe one game in their youth got lost to his childhood rival due to resistance triggering or something like that. Or his older brother made hgim cry by using the rampart Resistance specialist, Thorgrim.

In any case, Resistance effect is no more radical than the enemy Black Dragons getting Morale or Luck (Or both!) in a turn and completely trashing your army with their breath attack. Resistance never is quite radical, it's just feel-bad to them coz "waaah muh spell".

Live with it, resistance was a well balanced and useful skill and never OP unlike Logistics, Offense or Armorer (which they have no problem with). Furthermore they keep useless things like Mysticism around mostly unchanged. So both useless and OP skills are ok, as well as even more random skills like Luck and Morale - that don't have a single "counter or not" check but also vary in usefulness according to round they trigger AND creature they trigger with (which are also integrated on events, artifacts, buiildings etc.), and bad morale is much more feel bad...

No, from all random mechanics and useless or OP skills, only resistance isn't OK and a huge chunk of effort is used to erase it, compared to tweaking Eagle Eye values that are a single byte and continue untouched. Eagle Eye is also random, BTW, and nearly completely useless, and there are 7 heroes with that as specialty and 8 with it as starting skill -which also f*cks you over in random hero games- Why didn't they replace THAT with something useful by coding a new skill instead?

So the only explanation is irrational personal bias.
There is another HUGE evidence to the "Thorgrim trauma" theory. Not only did they took Resistance out, but they took Thorgrim out of the game completely. This is basically offensive (but Interference is already a pretty offensive skill, and not as in "Offensive capabilities" but as in "Offensively bad").

If I ever fight a HotA developer I will only use Thorgrim is every game. But they probably will refuse to play the actual game because of being cowardly anti-resistance bigots ; )


Join the campaign! Resistance IS NOT futile!

And by the way Resistance is a completely defensive skill that can be easily bypassed by an intelligent caster. Even against high magic it may be useless. Yes, you read that right.

Resistance only partically protects your creatures from directed damage and curses, but does nothing when the enemy uses his magic to buff his own creatures, or to affect the battlefield.
So against buffs like Prayer, Bless, Hasta, Frenzy, against stuff such as Teleport, and even against field offensive spells like Force Field, Earthquake, Fire Wall, Quicksand, Land Mines, and even the damage-dealing Armageddon, resistance does absolutely nothing.

Even a midly smart caster can thus skip the "oh-so-demolishing" 20% chance of resistance (or 40% with a level 50 Thorgrim, ohhh, scary! pfff), effectively making it 0% just by using the right spells.
Even if you are playing wrong by using direct offense against resistance, even if mass damage and curses are partially resisted (like Mass Slow), they will still affect 80% of the enemy units on average... and random? ZERO random on over half of spells!
So, cry me a river! Restore Resistance now!

____________
https://www.moddb.com/mods/greatest-mod

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 21, 2020 08:47 AM

Again could'nt agree more with NimoStar.
Resistance =
Interference =

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RerryR
RerryR


Promising
Famous Hero
Researching Magic
posted September 21, 2020 09:24 AM

NimoStar said:

Join the campaign! Resistance IS NOT futile!


haha , where can i sign?

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Bersy
Bersy


Honorable
Supreme Hero
posted September 21, 2020 12:54 PM

Resistance could work by simply reducing spells duration and damage, golem-like resistance. Implemented in Phoenix mod.
____________
Heroes 3 Era and everything for it. Releases folder for releases.

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pizdabol
pizdabol


Hired Hero
posted September 21, 2020 01:35 PM

Bersy said:
Resistance could work by simply reducing spells duration and damage, golem-like resistance. Implemented in Phoenix mod.


Ahem..... it currently does. It's called Interference and it ain't that hot.

Btw,I thought expert Resistence was 15 percent not 20?

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Rimgrabber
Rimgrabber


Known Hero
It's a fixer-upper
posted September 21, 2020 03:50 PM

Also, interference further nerfs the already underpowered magic heroes by cutting their ability to cast strong non-damaging spells like resurrection and summon elementals too, which is just about the only advantage they get over might heroes.

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Revolut1oN
Revolut1oN


Famous Hero
posted September 21, 2020 04:24 PM
Edited by Revolut1oN at 16:29, 21 Sep 2020.

Are you high? Resistance was totally broken, either useless or completely imba. Now Interference is extremely strong, every good player in PVP takes that skill once Earth l/air and logistics are secured. Its stupid strong, yet not imba.

Thats what I call a good design. Hating Interference and believing its bad is just a testimony of one being noob, playing 12-month long compstomps vs AI. Thats nothing to be ashamed of, but forcing it down other peoples' throat is beyond stupid. Play your own noobish ways (you can even turn resistance on back in editor and in template settings) but dont try to ruin competitive aspect of the game with clueless newbie rants.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted September 21, 2020 05:06 PM

pizdabol said:

Also, does anybody willingly take Interference really?


Yes, the Interference package is a clear imrovement to the old Resistance, actually. It's more consistant than resistance, and in the grand scheme of things, you're likely taking less damage from spells, as it's not a difficult task to get around 50% of Interference. In MP it's a really desired skill, after the early game ofc. In games against AI, it's not very good skill, as the computer player cannot exactly build terrifying spell caster
nor use their spells very effectively. But this ofc, was the thing with classic resistance as well.

NimoStar said:

The only logical conclusion is that a main guy at HotA REALLY hates resistance. Maybe one game in their youth got lost to his childhood rival due to resistance triggering or something like that. Or his older brother made hgim cry by using the rampart Resistance specialist, Thorgrim.


Ehm. I get that most of your post is typed in a tongue in cheek kind of way, and you weren't all serious when typing that.
But. "The main guy of Hota" is actually a well known person in the community. See, I'm not exactly an ERA guy, and don't necessary share the platforms view of the game. Still, you don't find me calling Rerry, Bersy, Sal or anybody else there crybabys.
Just saying.

NimoStar said:

Live with it, resistance was a well balanced and useful skill and never OP unlike Logistics, Offense or Armorer (which they have no problem with). Furthermore they keep useless things like Mysticism around mostly unchanged.


Mysticims is buffed and Logistics is nerfed, Armorer and Offence are ok.

NimoStar said:

even the damage-dealing Armageddon, resistance does absolutely nothing.


I'm unsure what you mean. Sure Resistance works against arma, no matter who is casting the spell.

I mostly share BTB's point of view, and understand why they did the change. (which can turned off, btw) It's likely their biggest nod towards multiplayer style of play, where the player isn't just playing against AI. When two players are present, it becomes clear that there isn't really a way of balancing this kind of effect (either the spell gets countered or nothing happens) I would say the change is in line with banning of Red orb and Recanter's Cloak - changes like that help quite a bit magic heroes, and their style of play.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted September 21, 2020 07:01 PM

Quote:
Yes, the Interference package is a clear imrovement to the old Resistance, actually. It's more consistant than resistance, and in the grand scheme of things, you're likely taking less damage from spells, as it's not a difficult task to get around 50% of Interference. In MP it's a really desired skill, after the early game ofc. In games against AI, it's not very good skill, as the computer player cannot exactly build terrifying spell caster
nor use their spells very effectively. But this ofc, was the thing with classic resistance as well.


I don't think so at all.
30% interference is MUCH weaker against enemy spells than 20% ressitance, and let me tell you how:

- It doesn't protext you from curses immediately. Being cursed for 20 turns or 14 is basically an useless distinction. The battle will be over by then.
- It doesn't affect the main brunt of enemy spell damage as much as it states, because it's loaded into the spell damage base. Implosion has a 300 damage base and this is unchanged by "interference" for example.

So in both damage and curses, resistance is useful while interference is not.

And that's not even counting the AI and creature spellcaster stuff. Interference is 100% useless against neutrals. A waste of skill in campaign, PvE and PvAI - While Resistance remains useful in those cases.

***

Also, I don't keep track of people so I don't really know who the main guy at HotA is. It could be you for all I know - Basically, I am autistic.

And yes, the post isn't written in a literal way with the allusions. But destroying someone's favourite skill for a poorly designed substitute seems much worse than calling someone "the main guy at HotA" (which isn't really derisive at all, in fact, saying someone is the "main guy" should be called as a compliment - the only complimenting part in my post
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 21, 2020 07:11 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 19:11, 21 Sep 2020.

Interference also ruined Gold Dragons even more. (if that is possible) Now they will ALWAYS get hit by Implosion, when they had a chance to resist it with Resistance.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted September 21, 2020 07:26 PM

Yes, that is also a very important point. And Gold Dragons are very vulnerable since they have way lower HP compared to Black Dragons (250 vs 300), and Dungeon is a faction which is very magic damage oriented (considering the Mana doubler structure), thus being able to cast Implosion a great number of times - Which with interference, is always guaranteed to completely kill a Gold Dragon and heavily damage another at the very least (and it's not like 30% of spell power reduction that doesn't factor into this base damage is that much either - they still have 70% of it).

But I do have a longer Gold Dragon with Thorgrim and Implosion game story I will share later in it's own post so I'm saving it for later :V
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https://www.moddb.com/mods/greatest-mod

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 21, 2020 07:35 PM

Speaking of Mana Vortex, since Expert Intelligence is now only +50%, Mana Vortex should also only be +50%. Effect of Magic Spring and Altar of Mana should also be halved.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted September 21, 2020 08:11 PM
Edited by Hourglass at 20:18, 21 Sep 2020.

NimoStar said:

- It doesn't protext you from curses immediately. Being cursed for 20 turns or 14 is basically an useless distinction. The battle will be over by then.
- It doesn't affect the main brunt of enemy spell damage as much as it states, because it's loaded into the spell damage base. Implosion has a 300 damage base and this is unchanged by "interference" for example.  


I did the math back in the day for Phoenix, when it was STILL THE FIRST TIME he brought up goldies + implosion discussion. (I use the true base 100 dmg there, but basically the math doesn't change even you would go with 300) So while you're capable of taking damage from spells, it's actually benefictical to have Interference instead. As for debuffs, they're both bad at preventing them. Avarage result with resistance is that one of your units is not targeted, and you cannot choose which one. There are also situations where thanks to interference, the opponent will only have very few SP, and the spells will run out of duration. And unlike resistance, this goes for both buffs and debuffs.

Intererence is also far more easy to build, as it's easier to find the artifacts, and the stats are bigger in those items than the classic ones. (that's why I first said "Interference package")

But the best thing is that it prevents the opponent from bringing back units, and completely ruin elemental summoning, something that resistance is completely incapable of doing.

NimoStar said:

And that's not even counting the AI and creature spellcaster stuff. Interference is 100% useless against neutrals. A waste of skill in campaign, PvE and PvAI - While Resistance remains useful in those cases.


Well, if there were atleast a handful of such units, we could maybe talk about it being a selling point. It's the same thing as why Eagle Eye wouldn't turn useful, even if it could learn spells from creatures.

Also, if resistance was good, it would have actually seen more play in MP. Interference on the other hand, is a desirable skill on that format. Resistance has never been the go-to skill in single play either, so that's that.


***
NimoStar said:

Also, I don't keep track of people so I don't really know who the main guy at HotA is. It could be you for all I know - Basically, I am autistic.

And yes, the post isn't written in a literal way with the allusions. But destroying someone's favourite skill for a poorly designed substitute seems much worse than calling someone "the main guy at HotA" (which isn't really derisive at all, in fact, saying someone is the "main guy" should be called as a compliment - the only complimenting part in my post


Gotcha.

The "main guy" goes by the name of Docent Picolan, who recently posted to the main hota thread. But about "destroying:" Are you aware that both Resistance and Interference co-exists in the game? Basically, Hota team found a way to put another skill to the game. So you can have a battle with Thogrim and Giselle, if you so desire. You can use both editors to edit resistance "back" to the game.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted September 21, 2020 09:21 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 22:03, 21 Sep 2020.

Never heard that name before i'm afraid.

Quote:
Intererence is also far more easy to build, as it's easier to find the artifacts, and the stats are bigger in those items than the classic ones. (that's why I first said "Interference package")


Irrelevant - Resistance becomes absolute at 100%, so each bit of % is worth more than the last. What is more valuable vs damage - 50% resistance or 50% less spell power?

Obviously 50% resistance. 50% spell power will not even make deal 50% less damage.

Which is more valuable vs curses? 50% resistance or 50% less spell power? Obviously 50% resistance 10 vs 20 turns - Useless. Of course there are "edge cases". But normally you need the resistance right in the moment. 1-2 units resisting the curse immediately are FAR more valuable than spending the whole battle with all your units cursed, waiting for a theoretical time when it runs out, that it may never come (also, there are artifacts for increasing spell duration - Interference doesn't even change that.

If you used the 100 damage version, when the opponent using implosion is most likely to be expert earth, the math is absolutely NOT valid. Specially because 300 = 4 spell power, 100 = 1.33 spell power.

TL DR you did the math wrong...

Also simply consider the following:

100% resistance = nil damage, nil curse
(Not only artifacts and skill and specialty, but also Battle Dwarf ability and Unicorn aura count towards this total)
100% "interference" = Still get hit by all 300 base damage of the spell. Curses still work 1 + "extra duration" of turns.

Collar of Conjuring +1 duration, Ring of Conjuring +2 duration, Cape of Conjuring +3 duration, Ring of the Magi +56 (!!!) duration, they are all the cheapest Treasure level artifacts and very abundant, Interference = USELESS

So tell again about how it's just "Better".

Quote:
But about "destroying:" Are you aware that both Resistance and Interference co-exists in the game? Basically, Hota team found a way to put another skill to the game. So you can have a battle with Thogrim and Giselle, if you so desire. You can use both editors to edit resistance "back" to the game.


Nonsense... when you play online you need to use the non-resistance version basically. If resistance is enabled, interference is disabled.

Otherwise and normally: All heroes that had Resistance are changed for the worthless Interference.

Also pointing out again you didn't adress:

- How it's basically useless against AI and NPCs while Resistance is not, making it a far worse designed skill.

- Or how Eagle Eye or their SEVEN SPECIALISTS and EIGHT HEROES didn't get changed.

- Or how Luck and Morale are way MORE random and have higher effect in the game and combat.

- How Resistance wasn't taken off of Dwarves and Unicorns (which also compounds and works in tandem with the original skill, while interference does NOT and has negative synergy)

- Or how Resistance not working against blesses and enviroment spells is actually a point *in favor* of it not being so random, since it allows/forces opponent to change tactics to bypass it, while interference is a no-brain weak debuff.
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted September 21, 2020 09:32 PM

Gotta agree with NimoStar ngl, he's got some solid points.
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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 21, 2020 09:35 PM

Interference also does'nt help vs Berserk, Blind, Mass Slow etc. Now you will always get hit by those, which was certainly not the case with Resistance.

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