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| Thread: What would be the maximum amount of lore-based factions in Heroes |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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AirikrStrife
Hired Hero
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posted January 17, 2024 05:43 PM |
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What would be the maximum amount of lore-based factions in Heroes
Coming back to the MM universe every few years or so I get a little bit deeper into the history and lore of the game every time. Having discovered HotA and seeing how they made one lore based faction (cove) and a independent faction (factory) and DoR working on lore based factions (palace, forge and a mystery third) I was thinking about how many possible factions could an ultimate Heroes game covering all the lore of the planet of Enroth host? Not saying it should but I jotted down everything which struck me as a polity significant enough to be a full faction,
Enroth:
Kingdom of Enroth (Farm/Knight)
Sorcerers of Enroth (Forest/sorcerer)
Warlocks of Enroth (Mountain/Warlock)
Barbarians of Enroth (Plains/Barbarian)
Wizards of Enroth (Wizard)
Necromancers of Enroth (necromancer)
Brigands of Enroth? MM6 features many strong bands of brigands and thiefs. The Dragoons, The Shadow Guild, Warlord's fortress, Silver Helm
Cult of Baa/Devils of Enroth, either as a joint faction or seperate allied factions based on the Baa cult in Hermit's island and the Devil hive in Sweet Water.
Dwarves of Enroth
Antagarich:
Erathia (Castle)
AvLee (Rampart)
Bracada (Tower
Krewlod (Stronghold)
Tatalia (Fortress)
Kreegans/Eofol (Inferno)
Deyja (Necropolis/Forge)
Nighon (Dungeon)
Dwarves of Stone city.
Vori Elves (upcoming palace faction)
Jadame:
Jadame has independent populations/polities of
Dark Elves, Lizard People, Trolls, Minotaurs, Humans, Necromancers.
A possibility besides creating several individual faction would be to use the a faction based on the alliance of jadame with choices on which allies to include (ex. Dragons or dragon slayers). I seen some suggestions on this and calling it Kontor
Regna pirates (Cove)
Karigor:
Faction(s) based on the church of the sun/moon
I created a sketch that had one faction (Cathedral) but have alternate line ups depending on if an altar of the sun or an altar of the moon are built.
Misc:
Elemental Lords and their planes (Conflux)
Escaton's plane between planes and ancients?
I was entertaining the idea that instead of having alternate creature dwellings to choose from in a faction as in HoMM4, there could have been seperate but heavily overlapping factions between the associated Enroth/Antagarich factions. Say ~5/7 units are the same
But to me besides the factions having been/being developed by aformentioned modding teams, the factions missing the most is Cult of Baa, Church of Sun&moon, a dwarf faction and Kontor/Alliance of Jadame.
What are your thoughts? Am I missing some possible faction? There are some smaller associations that I found to negligible to mention like smugglers and thieves in Antagarich and Jadame. Even the brigand faction in Enroth is just a recognition of how weak the central power in the kingdom is/has become allowing for what is essentially private military companies to establish themselves + organized crime networks.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted January 17, 2024 06:05 PM |
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I am coming only for a quick word, but as far as I am aware, the Church of the Sun would just be part of Castle (it's just one church and it's most prevalent there - think of it as Catholicism, I suppose, because it sort of parallels it, even though the Church of the Stars is the Holy Land, Vatican etc. of Enroth the planet, and essentially has "the pope", despite its more ancient Arabian inclinations with the star worship and all).
I wouldn't associate the Plane Between Planes too strongly with the Ancients, it's also populated by nightmare-ish blobs of flesh or whatever made by the Creators heh (and someone else other than Erebus the Dark, who made the Kreegans). They're called Fears in MM8, if I'm not wrong.
Jadame is a very colorful mix of various towns, if you'd ask me. Dungeon, Fortress, Stronghold and so on. There is no real strong trope holding all that together, other than perhaps a mercenary faction of sorts, but I for one do not fancy the idea too much, because better can be done.
P.S. I wouldn't call DoR's factions to be purely lore ones, that is not the case at all. Rather, both lore and trope are crucial parts of the development, but when it comes to the realization of the faction itself, the standalone tropey design takes precedence over lore, just like in the vanilla H3, not the other way around (that's why lore creatures are so rare and always confined to being neutrals, in the vanilla game, like the Enchanters and Sharpshooters). There are a few, rare exceptions, of course, but still.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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evildustructor
Known Hero
Pizza Man dominos pizza yummy
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posted January 17, 2024 06:08 PM |
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such ambitions would probably need official monetization considering hota (and other mods in production i guess) is a passion project with the impending threat of ubi legal team moments where they would keep the steam version the "official" version rather than capitalize on how popular h3 actually was and still is with hota  an official ubi version, or at least some kind of recognition would probably be needed for very large ambitions like this but i guess it can be fun to theory craft
dwarf factions would probably be unlikely considering in mm7 stone city still exists, but in heroes 3 they canonically allied with avlee considering stone city was invaded by kreegans, and the enroth versions would probably be in the sorceress town as well. dwarf cities are probably the least likely of the bunch, even a renegade enroth town would be more likely imo mm6 never really had a closure on the baa cultist/werewolf/evil crusader stuff iirc
also: one would have to discuss where the enrothian heroes went, considering roland and archibald gtfo'd to antagarich with like 1-2 heroes per faction, and thats pretty hard to get some ground on unless you create your own headcanon.you also have to consider the world has like ~10 years until it's refugee time to axeoth so that probably has to be solved as well and even with some people including nicolai going to the Very Well Constructed mm9 universe i don't think h4 ever mentions much of enroth (except mb some stuff like "barbarians from all over the enroth planet joined forces with waerjak in the end" etc), jadame or other parts of the old world, it kinda is from antagarich refugee pov
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted January 17, 2024 07:38 PM |
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Since you brought up Stone City, realistically, you'd have to keep in mind that there is still plenty from the Enroth planet (and its past) that is more or less unexplored or open to interpretation. It was, in fact, a main design point for NWC games: leaving loose ties and ends, in case an installment wants to explore those.
So at the end of the day, within the limits of reasonability, taking the trope and finding a place for it is the more reasonable way of designing factions for H3 (there are, of course, some sort of exceptions, like Vori, but still) - otherwise, the surface and/or direct lore is way too limiting. And if you think about it, before H3 itself, there was virtually nothing known about Antagarich, and its lore followed the game's design to a good extent. And there is still plenty of the underground, Jadame, islands and their archipelagos + small conservative kingdoms (think, Price of Loyalty!) and Ardon to explore (don't tell me Ardon is not part of Enroth: Enroth's playable map contains Ardon's North, Ardon hints multiple times at being on the same planet, and it also perfectly fills in the spot of a giant ocean). So, really, tropes are the limit. At least when it comes to brainstorming ideas that fit into H3 and the MM lore (and if an idea really does not match Enroth, but could work on another planet, so what?).
Edit: Of course, the other way around works too, like picking a certain (former) kingdom and seeing what new tropey faction could represent it. Although you might also stumble upon other kingdoms being represented by vanilla factions, like that.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted January 17, 2024 09:13 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 21:19, 17 Jan 2024.
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Needs more Axeoth 
Anyways, I think in lore, each Elemental Plane is their whole own faction.
So there are four factions there. Possibly six if if we count Mind and Magic elementals (which are referred to as their whole own "fifth" and "sixth" elements with their own probable planes in the Heroes 3 manual for the creatures (see here) - If we collapse them both into the Elemental Plane of Magic, we have five elemental factions)
I think in VCMI someone did at least the "Elemental Plane of Earth".
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Never changing = never improving
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted January 17, 2024 10:20 PM |
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Lore-wise, yes, each elemental plane could be considered a faction (think of the older MM RPGs and the Elemental Lords and so on). But that's purely in terms of lore, not game and its design (at least assuming this is about H3, based on op's post).
Regarding the Elemental Plane of Magic, it is home to Psychic and Magic Elementals. However, unlike the four "main" elemental planes, it is sort of separate and more local. In essence, what I am saying is that the 4 elemental planes are more or less universal, but other "elemental" planes can and do exist, and are not all that universal. Thus, you could very well have additional elemental planes (which is also what H3 basically did already). There are also non-elemental planes, such as the Plane Between Planes, Plane of Death, Astral Planes, and so on.
In terms of the game itself, many inhabitants of the four main elemental planes are better off in various other factions (such as the classic types of djinns, the gogs, the phoenixes, the water monsters and so on). So making any elemental plane factions in H3 would be a nigh-impossible task, at least if trying to fit into the game's original design (and Gregory Fulton did intentionally make Conflux as it is - the design of the faction was not rushed, only the visuals).
And to give examples from fanmade mods too, HotA has the Stormbirds and Oceanids which come from an elemental plane, whereas DoR has the Snow Maidens (Yuki-onna).
I checked that Elemental Plane of Earth town. I can count only 1-2 creatures that might actually inhabit said plane. It looks a bit more like a spinoff of what Dungeon could have had, with some filler in it. No offense.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted January 17, 2024 10:51 PM |
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Its more very interesting factions.
Enroth
Wild tribes cannibals...
Pirates ...
Silver helms is not a thug society but mercenaries soc.
Dwarves is rather sorceress faction... Loretta Fleise looks like sorceress Queen because we have druid quest and druids as enemies.
Infested Waters is part of plane of the Water because you have there mere people.... You have hall od the fire lord too. Gharik Forge is a elemental plane too...
Werewolves are unique society only mm6.
Another motive is a mad scientist like Corlagon or Terrax its rather necro faction.
MM7 is failed as logical factions completly mish mash. Heroes 3 is completly another and better.
Vori snow elves and ice giants...
Jadame is full of various societes.
1DWIslands
Lizards
Serpents
Plane of earth
2 Shadowspire
necro
3 Ironsand
Plane of fire
Trolls
4 Alvar
Dark elves
Ogres (barbarians)
Dark dwarves
Insects
5 Ravenshore
all factions +
wererats
wolves
6 Regna
Pirates
7 Ravage
Plane of water
Barbarians
Minos
8 Garrot
Dragons
Mad hunters
Nagas
9 Murmurwoods
Plane of Air
Clerics
Unicorns
Druids (canceled from game)
We have separate dragons and eep cultist whole Jadame.
So Jadame is the best!
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted January 17, 2024 11:02 PM |
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Quote:
MM7 is failed as logical factions completly mish mash. Heroes 3 is completly another and better.
Also, you otherwise just laid out the in-game represented inhabitants/monsters of various places for the most part (especially for MM8 locations), rather than point out at specific factions. Though maybe that was the point of your post.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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Thecastrated
Famous Hero
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posted January 18, 2024 02:19 AM |
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Are these lores based on one single book or tome(pun intended) or are they juxtaposed from Western lores or are they just made up as and when
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evildustructor
Known Hero
Pizza Man dominos pizza yummy
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posted January 18, 2024 03:06 AM |
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@fp
yea, i think having a dwarf faction feels too tropey for me, idk why but just feels kinda off when dwarves are already ingame since h1 focus would probably be better off elsewhere for modders/future ubi employees*
idk, feels like most possible ideas would be okay-ish up to a certain point - there will be a point where theres simply not enough room for stuff to have happened when we know the future of the universe already lol i mean, considering how cluttered the universe at the time is in h3 theres not room for expansion lore-wise imo, would be better of if a reboot/mod/expansion etc would be set with either somewhat redesigned factions or set in a previous time or something, like 1000 AS? when that certain point is reached every new addition will feel like some weird fanfic from 2005, but maybe thats just my opinion theres a certain charm to having the additions follow the structure of the original (and its universe) and keeping the "soul" of the game in a way
alt universe lore is boring too and ashan stuff is argueably worse, even axeoth has its weird stuff even tho i love the original h4 campaigns, i mean come on its rly hard to expand in an intriguing way from the mm9 viking continent, spazz maticus crazy quest to conquer the world out of pure evil and hexis the evil necromancer from hell
but yea most of this stuff is prob old news and has been discussed to death, think we gotta realize the only way forward is decided by ubi, either with ubi supporting the modding community, or ubi letting the community thrive by ignoring it (both probably involve h3 tho since they effectively abandoned further heroes developments, we should probably be thankful)
*whenever erwans big mobile game finally becomes a hit in china and they can devote 0,0000000000001% of their resources to finally make a good remaster or whatever the market certainly exists for it!!
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted January 18, 2024 05:47 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 06:32, 18 Jan 2024.
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Quote:
I checked that Elemental Plane of Earth town. I can count only 1-2 creatures that might actually inhabit said plane. It looks a bit more like a spinoff of what Dungeon could have had, with some filler in it. No offense.
I don't take offense, I didn't make the town. I do think its made based on alternate Dungeon
Quote:
Regarding the Elemental Plane of Magic, it is home to Psychic and Magic Elementals. However, unlike the four "main" elemental planes, it is sort of separate and more local. In essence, what I am saying is that the 4 elemental planes are more or less universal, but other "elemental" planes can and do exist, and are not all that universal. Thus, you could very well have additional elemental planes (which is also what H3 basically did already). There are also non-elemental planes, such as the Plane Between Planes, Plane of Death, Astral Planes, and so on.
In terms of the game itself, many inhabitants of the four main elemental planes are better off in various other factions (such as the classic types of djinns, the gogs, the phoenixes, the water monsters and so on). So making any elemental plane factions in H3 would be a nigh-impossible task, at least if trying to fit into the game's original design (and Gregory Fulton did intentionally make Conflux as it is - the design of the faction was not rushed, only the visuals).
However, I disagree with this.
Yes, Conflux is as it is due to an intentional design decision, however this is also a cost-saving decision to make the town composed 4/7 of existing Neutrals and their variations. Also, not like they were going to add 4/5 full towns, they didn't have the resources even if they had wanted. At the end we got only 1 partially unfinished town.
Furthermore, factions can have full roster only with the creatures of Enroth / their own turf as well. In Heroes 4 it is made evident that Efreets are not Kreegans for example, they go their separate ways and separate factions
Might and Magic 8 has Efreets as one of the nine creatures of the Elemental Plane of Fire, we also have a list of buildings there:
Plane of Fire (MM8)
Similarly for the Plane of Water, Plane of Earth (less creature variations), Plane of Air
These also appear separately in Heroes Chronicles, where it doesn't make sense that the Conflux towns get all the elementals at once since the elemental lords are at war.
Take notice that Heroes Chronicles was made *after* SoD and after the game content was finalized and they couldn't change anything gameplay wise.
We never see or visit the Plane of Magic in any game AFAIK, but we do have the Plane Between Planes which can be a guide as it has some unique creatures and buildings which could be referenced/merged with it. Another option is to make them separate, since Plane of Magic inhabitants seem to have an orientalist middle east/muslim inspired style (see the turbans in the Mind elementals, and on elementalist heroes), while Plane Between Planes seems to be more like sci-fantasy eldritch horror.
To take into account: The title and OP is specifically asking for the maximum amount, not the "minimum" or "suits our tastes". It is clear at the very least that on the maximum amount, these are separate factions.
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Never changing = never improving
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FdgK
Known Hero
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posted January 18, 2024 08:18 AM |
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NimoStar said:
[...]We never see or visit the Plane of Magic in any game AFAIK [...]
We do in the sixth mission of Heroes Chronicles - Masters of the Elements.
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AirikrStrife
Hired Hero
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posted January 18, 2024 09:38 AM |
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Yes I'm not a modder so this is entirely a thought experiment, or reflection on the game.
I do think there needs to be a bit balance between lore and trope. Especially as I always played MM7 and H3 together I like to feel that each faction, while having a trope is also connected to some form of lore and a polity of sort.
I do like that H5 makes every faction easily recognizable as a people or what to call it, but then go on and makes the factions too bland and repetitive. H3 definitly makes much more appealing factions.
If we're only talking tropes, then there could be stuff like a water based faction, a desert based faction (and this did end up in later games and in mods)
IMO H1 had great factions, hitting a really good balance between creativity and lore, only mountain feels like it lacks a bit of character to me. in H2 it's Warlock and Wizard that lacks a sense of cohersion, both factions to be finally fixed in H3.
The only thing I would change in H3 original faction is that I would give rampart more of sorerers creatures, replace dwarves with sprites and dragons with phoenix. That could IMO also give space for a better conflux faction in finding replacements
That said not every polity needs to be a faction, it's clear there exists many different tribes/bands of goblins, ogres etc across the continents, they're all fine as one unified faction.
And as I'm talking about some form of maximum factions for the established enroth planet, that's only a limit for the sake of continuity. If NWC had stayed in enroth they could have made up new continents and new factions as they please. Likewise HotA made up factory because that's what they had a vision for.
In regards to factions being lore-based, my point is not that every single unit needs to have precedence in the game, from what I see DoR are making new units and new lore, but that works with the established lore, expands on it, i.e. Vori clearly existing in the universe, having distinct aspects of culture and lore to use as a starting point, likewise was regna/cove.
Talking Church of the sun/moon. I do think they could have been their own faction, rather than just represented by castle/necropolis. They did have their own continent (karigor) fought a massive civil war (war of dove and crow) have some history and lore connected to them, show up on their own in antagarich and jadame (sun only in jadame)
This was my sketch on a cathedral faction there there is a split in the rooster depending on which altar is built:
Sun:
Pilgrim
Marble Gargoyle
Chruch Grim
Priest of Sun
Templar
Mogred Beast
Seraph
Moon:
Pilgrim
Obsidian Gargoyle
Werewolf
Priest of Moon
Banshee
Mogred Beast
Nephilim
a rough sketch but I think it could have worked as a faction
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baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted January 18, 2024 07:27 PM |
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In MM7 we have human Erathia faction Emerald, Harmondale, Erathia - peasants swordsmans Griffins.
Elves faction Avlee Tulearan - peasants warriors ents
Dwarves faction only dwarves
Nighon is the best looking faction similiar to H3 excluding Rocs.
But desert Bracada is a fail. Celeste is worst with major unit angels?!?!
Rest is a total mish mash deyia as barbarian country with goblin people? And with pit?
Tatlia? With people trolls? Vampires?.
I see only 4 factions.
I like MM7 but not for fitting to H3!!! Its completly different...
...
In MM8 I see not only monsters but logical factions.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted January 18, 2024 09:30 PM |
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@evildustructor
H3, at least, is trope in one word. But to each their own, I'm not bothered.
There is still plenty of Enroth that was not explored, and the same with its conflicts. It doesn't really feel cluttered, just unexplored, at least as far as I am concerned.
I can agree that alt universe is boring. Of course, it would be nice to explore what would have happened if the prophecy of Gelu ruling Antagarich was fulfilled, but only as a little side-story if anything.
I would personally prefer if Ubi did not touch this universe and game (H3) anymore. They could make H3 with rtx for all I care: it would lack the mods and probably introduce some non-nerdy lore as well (maybe even retcon the Reckoning while at it and forget over half of the deep lore like the fact that dragons see time differently (it's why the dragons followed Mutare in the first place, they saw who she will become) and plenty of other things), plus add Regnan pirates on sharks and some other stupid crap.
@NimoStar
Gregory Fulton wanted a town inhabited by elementals which would echo the H2 Sorceress ever since he first designed all the factions for the game. That's all there is to it, and they had to push it to an earlier expansion due to the whole Forge happening (and also scrapping that future expansion in the process). If they did not make the elementals for RoE, they would have made them in AB. Simple as that.
Quote:
Furthermore, factions can have full roster only with the creatures of Enroth / their own turf as well. In Heroes 4 it is made evident that Efreets are not Kreegans for example, they go their separate ways and separate factions
I don't know what you are saying here, unless you're implying that factions should not rely on creatures from other Planes or worlds, case in which I strongly disagree. The Genie is still part of the Wizard faction, in H4.
Quote:
To take into account: The title and OP is specifically asking for the maximum amount, not the "minimum" or "suits our tastes". It is clear at the very least that on the maximum amount, these are separate factions.
Not for H3, though, as the game already has the Conflux, and a H3-fitting elemental plane faction would contain its respective elemental. But this is a totally different topic and probably not even what the op is talking about.
@AirikrStrife
Church of the Sun just looks like Castle 2.0, no offense. Though I like the idea of giving the Church of the Moon an inquisitorial faction that would be an anti-Castle (after all, two kingdoms of humans, good vs evil, is a well-known trope in itself).
@baronus
What's wrong with the Angels in Celeste? They are Ancient constructs (whether organic or not), and are defending a cradle of Light and knowledge on the planet of Enroth. There is nothing to contradict their inclusion there, even if it's a bit odd in a way. Not only, but Gavin Magnus himself was a grandmaster of Light Magic, and interested in any and all things related to the Ancients, so several Angels would be nice for him to have.
Bracada is also partially leading into the desert, geography-wise (and then, the Tatalia we explore in MM7 is the part owned by Erathia).
Why can't Deyja have a minor goblin population that is not large enough to go at war in the Necromancer armies? MM is an RPG and it's not meant to represent only that kingdom's armies in its storytelling and so on, it can also show minor communities and populations. Having goblins live in Deyja as well is better than not if you would ask me at least, it brings some nice diversity and shows that not only humans spread in multiple kingdoms.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted January 18, 2024 09:42 PM |
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Angels is hardcore Erathia unit so Celeste should be Catherine rule. Bracada is main snow country and Deyia is necro. Goblin is Kreewlod. I prefer H3 order...
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted January 18, 2024 10:02 PM |
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Angels are Erathian creatures (well, if you want to get into specifics, they are not Erathian, they simply sided with them in great numbers once the Kreegans showed up in order to get rid of them), but nobody confines them to Erathia, and Celeste is Bracada's capital.
Bracada is mainly a snow country, but in that game you might as well explore its more Krewlodian areas, which are deserts (in a similar fashion to the Rust Dragon map in Dracon's campaign). Furthermore, it's a nice nod towards H2's Wizard town being placed on a desert.
Goblins are a majority in Krewlod, but who's to say that some cannot live elsewhere? You're likely to end up with a very monotonous Ashan-like world if restricting kingdoms in such a manner (geographically, culturally, racially etc.).
Yog is in a similar spot like those Goblins, so going by that logic, this half-Genie man should not be a Krewlod hero, but a Bracada one.
H3 doesn't really contradict any of this, just as MM7 doesn't contradict H3.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted January 18, 2024 10:44 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 22:52, 18 Jan 2024.
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Quote:
Not for H3, though, as the game already has the Conflux, and a H3-fitting elemental plane faction would contain its respective elemental. But this is a totally different topic and probably not even what the op is talking about.
Expanding upon H3 requires changes to H3. The game already has the Confluc, but before that Elementals were unupgradeable neutrals not native to any terrain or towen. Adding the Conflux required changes to pre-existing arrangements.
Much as, adding new towns may require changes to pre-existing towns. And there is nothing wrong with that.
My example about the Efreets was that Efreets can easily be taken aweay from Inferno faction to be added to Plane of Fire, and replaced by another demon/kreegan (Gogs were also kreegans on the other hand, don't know as why you mentioned them as fire plane before).
All NWC heroes games have different faction lineups and creature alignments, yet they are all within the same continuity. This shows towns are alliances of convenience, not essential units, even H2 and H3 differences in creature alignment and town belonging are great.
Towns serve a specific in-story role, they aren't eternal constructs. The elemental conflux was fit to serve a role in Armageddon's Blade storyline, not to represent "elementals are like this and can be aligned this way only". Case in point, they weren't before, and aren't in Might and Magic or Chronicles.
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Never changing = never improving
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted January 18, 2024 11:17 PM |
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You are looking at this from a different perspective than those who made the game (or at least that's what I deduct.). You are looking more at the story side of the design, when it's the other way around for the most part. Even the Conflux was designed before any story drafting for it was done (and quite literally, in this case; in other towns, there were discussions about this creature and that creature, but Conflux was straightforward: Gregory Fulton wanted the 4 elementals and H2's pixies and Phoenixes in one town).
Elemental Plane towns cannot be a thing in H3, if following the design philosophy that was used to create this game, simply because Conflux already exists, and no expansion has dismantled nor would dismantle already existent factions (neutrals are something else entirely, on more levels).
H2 (and H1) was made mostly with fairy tale tropes in mind, whereas H3 was made with fantasy tropes in mind. These are totally different design paradigms.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted January 19, 2024 10:11 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 11:57, 19 Jan 2024.
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I think it is you who are looking it at a different way to game designers, no offense.
I see the game as something that can be redesigned, that is to say, I see it from a game developer perspective. From my view, faction lineups aren't "sacred", as I have already explained why (they weren't sacred to the developers nor did they carry through in between games).
So, if we are asking what is the maximum amount of factions, that entails redesigning faction allegiances.
In fact, you do as much yourself as unwilling to admit; for example, you reduplicate existing races, such as adding new elves (aren't elves already in Rampart, therefore precluding new elves?).
In the same vein, we can add new elementals. In fact, there are *several* elemental and elemental creature designs in Might and Magic, not just the ones we "got". H2 Air Elementals are completely different from H3, for instance; they are a transparent hulking outline. Equivalent differences are present with Water and Fire elementals, Earth elemental is the only similar one. H4 elementals are all completely different to H3 despite being in the same universe (only similar one is Air, with Earth, Fire and Water getting all-new designs). We also have totally different designs in MM1 and MM2. I am saying this as to make clear the new creatures design doesn't even have to be repeated. The elementals for example in Plane of Air town don't even have to be similar to the existing "conflux" (formerly neutral) Air Elemental.
There was also other numerous mentions of this within the thread. And OP themselves mentioned Elemental Lords and their Planes as a minimum program for "Maximum number of factions", asking for more.
Conflux doesn't even have to get necessarily redesigned to get the Plane of Earth, thus, no more than Rampart needs to have elves taken away to add Snow Elves, or Tower needs to be abolished by adding a new snow town, or Zombies need to be deleted for there to be Cyber Dead on Forge (in fact *all* of forge lineup was a sci-fi retread of previously existing creatures, including also Goblins, Minotaurs and Nagas).
So you see...
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Never changing = never improving
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