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| Thread: Faction Discussion — Sylvan! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 · «PREV |
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted May 03, 2025 08:56 PM |
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MattII said:
Ghost said:
dragon (n/worldwide) a large, frightening imaginary animal, often represented with wings, a long tail, and fire coming out of its mouth
The design, up until Heroes 7 was definitely from European mythology.
I don't explain and tell the original and history, only definition/meaning, but from many summaries are ancient Chinese dragon or if you are interested in Additions to Daniel: Bel and the Dragon.. So Babylonian story.. But I knew that from Europe.. Its wrong fact.. And I've found worldwide.. So it agreed with summaries.. My mythical creatures dictionary isn't ready yet..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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kesnarii
Hired Hero
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posted May 03, 2025 10:19 PM |
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MattII said:
kesnarii said:
I a pretty sure Iryads are based off of Oreads, which are basically mountain dryads. A reimagintion of them as mountain spirits.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oread
Δρυς (Drys) is oak in greek
Όρος (oros) is mountain in greek.
You make this link, how? The name? I don't see how a shambling mound of wood and stone bears any relation to a very definitely humanoid spirit.
Yeap, the name.... Maybe it is because I am Greek and Oread an Iryad have just the difference of a letter in how I read them...
Also I definitely said "reimagination". Oreads are humanoid nymphs, but still spirits of mountains...
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Etharil
Shaper of Lore
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posted May 03, 2025 11:39 PM |
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The_Green_Drag said:
MattII said:
the Hoplet, Iriyad and Aqualotl are all pure fantasy, and the Herbomancer is very close to it.
Yeah, it’s frustrating, but not as surprising when I see how Hive turned out. They’re given the opportunity to make an entirely new line up and there’s almost no mythology. What’s even the point of this olden era setting if the classic creatures are mostly absent? Dragon utopias, a handful of neutral creatures, and hexagon battlefields seems to be the extent of it.
I'd be happy to contest this:
Iriyads take their inspiration from Slavic mythology, namely the Realm of Iriy which was an afterlife garden within the crown of the cosmic tree and where the spring was believed to come from. As no records of beings from within Iriy have survived that would specify anything like dryads or oreads, the iriyad's form is a reimagination of that garden's guardians based on the information available regarding that realm.
Aqualotls are mythological creatures. In fact, the very animal itself, "axolotl", means "water dog" in the very literal sense and their existence is owed to Xolotl dying in their form. All we did was amp it up.
I don't understand the argument with the Herbomancer, to be frank. Could you elaborate please?
As for Hoplets, there indeed is no precedence in mythology, although they're meant to be a cross of a firefly and common hop, a plant that exists in real life (and beer is made of). Please do notice that NWC also had their own unique designs in the form of troglodytes as well as some very archaic mythology like the bull form of a gorgon, the hyena-like gnolls (although heavily inspired by D&D), the dendroids (inspired by Tolkien) and a range of other, not as commonly seen mythological creatures. I feel like we have essentially done the same here.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted May 04, 2025 06:10 AM |
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I'll concede the aqualotl, but they still don't fit a forest faction. I see the Iriyad as just an excuse to do your own thing just like the hoplet or herbomancer. Referencing a wiki article about some obscure myth being inspiration is the same as making your own creation.
The_Green_Drag said:
Despite the game taking place in a setting where a lot of the classic creatures exist. What a shame.
This is the point of frustration for me. Yes, in H3 NWC also made some filler units based around other things than pure mythology. However, that game also carried over every unit from the previous game and was adding +1 to each roster along with 2(3) more factions. They had room to fill.
Olden era's selling point is returning to the NWC world where there is a plethora of established creatures and lore to pull from. But instead, we're getting a lot of replacements and original creations, just like with the other Ubi-homm titles. The number of classic creatures from Heroes 1-4 that are returning to a faction line up is so few. Phoenixes and Dragonflies is all I count, and a handful of neutrals. Meanwhile, low hanging fruit like the pixie or Unicorn can't even make the cut.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted May 04, 2025 12:53 PM |
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Etharil said:
Iriyads take their inspiration from Slavic mythology, namely the Realm of Iriy which was an afterlife garden within the crown of the cosmic tree and where the spring was believed to come from. As no records of beings from within Iriy have survived that would specify anything like dryads or oreads, the iriyad's form is a reimagination of that garden's guardians based on the information available regarding that realm.
Information on Wikipedia is very sparse, with the only listed guardian being Veles (or Volos). I'd be interested to read a more in-depth resource, if you have one available.
Quote:
I don't understand the argument with the Herbomancer, to be frank. Could you elaborate please?
For one, the term itself doesn't really make sense from a linguistic standpoint ('herb' is derived from Latin, while '-mancy' derives from Greek. Votanomancer would be closer, though 'votano', or rather 'vótano' is modern, rather than classical Greek), never mind that the term is a modern invention. In addition, the creature itself has bird feet, so it's obvious not related to any of the other creatures in the lineup.
Quote:
As for Hoplets, there indeed is no precedence in mythology, although they're meant to be a cross of a firefly and common hop, a plant that exists in real life (and beer is made of). Please do notice that NWC also had their own unique designs in the form of troglodytes as well as some very archaic mythology like the bull form of a gorgon, the hyena-like gnolls (although heavily inspired by D&D), the dendroids (inspired by Tolkien) and a range of other, not as commonly seen mythological creatures. I feel like we have essentially done the same here.
The issue is, most other factions only got one fantasy creature at a time, except for maybe Fortress, which was a new faction. It's slightly different to do it to an existing faction.
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MurlocAggroB
Known Hero
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posted May 05, 2025 04:13 PM |
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The_Green_Drag said:
Referencing a wiki article about some obscure myth being inspiration is the same as making your own creation.
No... no it literally is not? Like, by definition, referencing something pre-existing is not making your own creation.
Anyways, I think it's silly to try and pretend HoMM has ever been anything more than copying the latest trends. Heroes III is a mashup of DnD creatures (including moving a whole faction underground to mimic the popular underworld of that series) and Warcraft (It's not a coincidence that orcs went from pigmen to greenskins, and Greg Fulton has outright said that the Ogre Magi are a reference to the Ogre Magi of Warcraft II, down to having Bloodlust). Heroes IV is a blatant aesthetic copy of the colour wheel from Magic: The Gathering. Heroes V is Warhammer, even more obviously than the other inspirations.
The series has always been an amalgamation of the most popular modern fantasy tropes. Trying to sell it as "deep and mythological" while simultaneously dismissing things that are actually deep and mythological just because you don't personally like it is laughable. Just say you don't like it. I don't like the aqualotls either, but don't pretend this is any deeper than that.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted May 05, 2025 07:55 PM |
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MurlocAggroB said:
No... no it literally is not? Like, by definition, referencing something pre-existing is not making your own creation.
Except there is no pre-existing concept of an Iryiad to reference, because it's made up.
MurlocAggroB said:
Trying to sell it as "deep and mythological" while simultaneously dismissing things that are actually deep and mythological just because you don't personally like it is laughable. Just say you don't like it. I don't like the aqualotls either, but don't pretend this is any deeper than that.
I was never trying to sell anything as deep and mythological if you read the other 3/4's of my post, lol. I don't care one way or the other if the old NWC settings copied popular DnD or whatever else. The old setting is the main point of Olden Era, and its barely reflected in the line-ups. Temple and Dungeon is no more classic than their Ashan Heroes 7 versions. And despite all the different forest faction line-ups over the years, it gets yet another interpretation with 6 of the 7 units being new, and nearly all the classic Sorceress/Rampart creatures left behind, in the game that returns to the classic setting. Its frustrating. I'm not saying I don't like any of it, I'm asking what is the point of this "Olden Era"?
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MurlocAggroB
Known Hero
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posted May 05, 2025 08:49 PM |
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The_Green_Drag said:
The old setting is the main point of Olden Era
No it isn't. You're getting mad about a rule that you made up.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted May 06, 2025 08:41 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 20:43, 06 May 2025.
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MurlocAggroB said:
The_Green_Drag said:
The old setting is the main point of Olden Era
No it isn't. You're getting mad about a rule that you made up.
It’s actually quite reasonable to deduce from the name Olden Era that the setting and style are important. The word "Olden" clearly signals a return to the past, so it makes sense for players to expect a throwback to earlier eras of the series.
And the game supports that impression in multiple ways, notably :
- The adventure map strongly echoes the older games — Heroes III comes to mind immediately.
- The return to battle hexes.
- The lore is rooted in the old setting, which reinforces the idea that the past is central to the game's identity.
- While the aesthetic and tone aren’t exactly like the NWC era, the general feel of the game evokes it in a more abstract, nostalgic way, at least in my impression.
So it's not a "made-up rule" —it's a natural interpretation based on the title and actual content. Green Drag's point stands on solid ground: the setting is part of what gives Olden Era its identity.
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kesnarii
Hired Hero
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posted May 08, 2025 02:39 PM |
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The_Green_Drag said:
I was never trying to sell anything as deep and mythological if you read the other 3/4's of my post, lol. I don't care one way or the other if the old NWC settings copied popular DnD or whatever else. The old setting is the main point of Olden Era, and its barely reflected in the line-ups. Temple and Dungeon is no more classic than their Ashan Heroes 7 versions. And despite all the different forest faction line-ups over the years, it gets yet another interpretation with 6 of the 7 units being new, and nearly all the classic Sorceress/Rampart creatures left behind, in the game that returns to the classic setting. Its frustrating. I'm not saying I don't like any of it, I'm asking what is the point of this "Olden Era"?
Hmmm... I am really starting to get behind that point.
I mean I am all for new and subverted stuff and I really like the new take on Sylvan. But I think that this point stands.
The factions in Olden Era are too far away from HoMM 1-4 factions. I get that this is set on Jadame and so it should have its unique identity, but I think that it would really help if there was a faction (other than temple/necropolis) that would have some ties to HoMM 1-3 factions. For example, I remember reading on discord a good idea of having Bracadum settlers on Jadame.This would help the older players tie the game to homm3 for example....
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ANcientDRuids
Famous Hero
(Andruids for short)
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posted May 09, 2025 02:04 AM |
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kesnarii said:
I mean I am all for new and subverted stuff
And I'm getting really tired of any subversion. I refunded the last game I bought the moment it went "religion of holy order bad" (Mandragora, recent indie game). "Subverted" is new kitsch.
(EDIT: this is not a comment directed towards Olden Era, just a general observation.)
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted May 09, 2025 10:13 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 10:31, 09 May 2025.
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Further, looking at the Wiki, the list of creatures dwelling in the Murmurwoods are:
Main woods - Wisps, Unicorns, Basilisks
Druid Circle - Chargers, Dark Dwarves, Boulders
Ancient Troll Home - Wisps, Basilisks
Temple of the Sun - Acolyte/Cleric/Priest of the Sun
None of these creatures appear in the lineup, so I'm having a hard time imagining how Sylvan could qualify as being a Murmurwoods town.
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TrueMefista 
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 09, 2025 12:26 PM |
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ANcientDRuids said:
And I'm getting really tired of any subversion. I refunded the last game I bought the moment it went "religion of holy order bad" (Mandragora, recent indie game)
I think none of things stealing Church aesthetic ever have it be good. This went the way of clown, you know, never used unironically 
I get mad how they never have good church with just one order mad, or heretical, it is always the whole package.
MattII said:
None of these creures appear in the lineup, so I'm having a hard time imagining how Sylvan could qualify as being a Murmurwoods town.
Hear, I am so mad about that.
Wisps and Chargers would have fit right in into 4 elements concepts, as well.
Unicorn are classic, and maybe good-aligned Basilisk could have been nice.
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LordInsane
Known Hero
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posted May 09, 2025 05:46 PM |
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MattII said:
Further, looking at the Wiki, the list of creatures dwelling in the Murmurwoods are:
Main woods - Wisps, Unicorns, Basilisks
Druid Circle - Chargers, Dark Dwarves, Boulders
Ancient Troll Home - Wisps, Basilisks
Temple of the Sun - Acolyte/Cleric/Priest of the Sun
None of these creatures appear in the lineup, so I'm having a hard time imagining how Sylvan could qualify as being a Murmurwoods town.
The particular incarnation of the Church of the Sun that appears in the Murmurwoods in MM8 is a relatively recent expedition and temple, so would not yet have been founded at the time of Olden Era (the Church has had a war-waging presence on Jadame before, so them being a faction in the form of Temple is not an issue).
I do find the absence of unicorns very odd - they're highly Murmurwoods-associated in MM8 (it's where the Unicorn King resides and has resided since before OE), and they're a classic Forest/Sorceress/Rampart/Preserve/Sylvan creature.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted May 09, 2025 05:47 PM |
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kesnarii said:
The factions in Olden Era are too far away from HoMM 1-4 factions. I get that this is set on Jadame and so it should have its unique identity, but I think that it would really help if there was a faction (other than temple/necropolis) that would have some ties to HoMM 1-3 factions.
It’s just a huge bummer when I consider how much room there was for both classic and new right from the start. The NWC games never had alternative upgrades; any returning unit from h1-h4 would need one completely new upgrade at the minimum.
On top of that, 2 of the 6 factions at launch are new to the series. They have two full rosters of new units to add, along with two upgrades for each. There is already a lot more flexibility on new units vs returning units than other titles had.
Imho, Necropolis is the only faction where I see real effort went towards representing an “olden era”.
-Ghosts work similarly as they did in h1-h2
-Vampires are moved to T7 due to lore and look monstrous instead of like Arthas
-Dread knights make a return as a top tier unit
-Higher growth rates with lower overall stats similar to the knight/barbarians of h1-h2(was mentioned on discord)
And still plenty of room for new units and upgrades like undead dogs, gravediggers, and vampire sorcerer.
Meanwhile, Dungeon conveniently has both dark elves returning from h6&h7. Zero brand new units. The rest of the roster is the h7 line up minus the stupid mime golem and a few tier swaps. Couldn’t bring back the Nightmare from h4 dungeon? Or any of the first three units from h1-h2?
Temple at least has a new name and can make the excuse of having a new identity.
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LordCameron
Famous Hero
Veteran of the Succession Wars
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posted May 09, 2025 08:35 PM |
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ANcientDRuids said:
kesnarii said:
I mean I am all for new and subverted stuff
And I'm getting really tired of any subversion. I refunded the last game I bought the moment it went "religion of holy order bad" (Mandragora, recent indie game). "Subverted" is new kitsch.
(EDIT: this is not a comment directed towards Olden Era, just a general observation.)
John Campbell take me home.
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