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LordCameron
Famous Hero
Veteran of the Succession Wars
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posted May 01, 2025 05:13 PM |
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Galaad said:
I’m absolutely enchanted. It’s a fresh take that still feels like coming home. Familiar, but reimagined with heart. I love the lineup, the townscreen is pure fairy-tale magic, and the music just oozes that Sylvan vibe. And honestly? I’m so glad they ditched the whole Ashan "Warcraft elf cosplay" bs. For me, this is the best version of a Nature town the series has ever delivered.
Edit : About the biome, I think it could benefit from a richer color palette. Autumn isn’t just red -it’s gold, amber, fading greens... a whole spectrum. Adding those in would break up the current "wall of red" ppl are complaining about while still staying true to the town’s autumnal vibe.
It feels pretty Warcraft still to me. The units and buildings are chunky and overdesigned while at the same time they're lacking cohesion. And they've got that weird Warcraft ear thing going on where elf ears changed from "slightly pointy" to "two foot long cow ears for some reason".
And the colour palette I agree of biome and units looks more like a mining site tailings pond than nature and natural creatures.
And best nature town has still got to be Sorceress Homm II for fairy tell enchantment, and Rampart Homm III for actual "natural" animals. (Though Homm IV did a fair shot at that to be fair).
Right now I'd say it is above Homm V in design and looks but below every other game but VI which I haven't seen so I have no idea.
I also agree about the autumn stuff, it would really make it feel less like a radioactive wasteland. Similar to how I think base line mythology draws on the power of the human consciousness, greens and blues in their natural place also draw on the innate sense of beauty humans hold. There are shortcuts to wonder beauty and myth, and the trend to abandon them for the last 20 years needs to reverse.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted May 01, 2025 07:56 PM |
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Town theme sounds good. Hero portraits look super random. Line up looks cool, but I can’t not see it as Conflux when it’s an elemental faction. And of course along with the Sylvan name has to come the H5/H7 Slyvan castle tree which also feels very forced here with the lack of treants. There are so many units left on the cutting room floor that an actual sylvan/rampart could have existed along side this elemental faction. Despite the game taking place in a setting where a lot of the classic creatures exist. What a shame.
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ninjata12
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 02, 2025 07:50 AM |
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Etharil, is there even a slight chance of seeing a pure Rampart faction as a DLC in Olden Era? I mean, the Sylvan here is so different from everything we've seen before in Sylvan and so close to Conflux, that there is enough room to make a totally different forest faction - both creature wise and gameplay wise. I don't know how the story will go in the campaign, but I could think of a million ways to add another faction that includes dendroids, elves, green dragons, etc... The same way we had Conflux and Rampart in H3...
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted May 02, 2025 09:12 AM |
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Edited by Galaad at 09:15, 02 May 2025.
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H2 Sorceress, H3 Rampart, H4 Preserve, and H5 Sylvan all share one clear identity: they're the Nature town.
This archetype has consistently been the most versatile across the entire Heroes series. The only real change over time has been the name —something I consider a nitpicky detail rather than a meaningful issue.
That said, many people keep comparing Olden Era's Sylvan to Conflux, and I strongly disagree.
Let’s break it down:
Faun: First appearance in the series.
Hoplet: A Pixie iteration, but let’s not forget Pixie originated in H2’s Sorceress —the precursor to Rampart and Sylvan— before being reassigned to Conflux.
Iryad: Sure, it’s essentially an Earth Elemental, but it also clearly evokes the Dendroid.
Aqualotl: Undeniably a Water Elemental —no argument there.
Herbomancer: Clearly the Druid, despite the new name. This unit has been a cornerstone of the Nature lineup, featured in H2 Sorceress, as well as H5 and H7 Sylvan.
Qilin: Previously seen only in Sanctuary. Here, it fills the Unicorn's role, just as the Deer did in H7, based on fan votes (ironically, also by some now lamenting the Unicorn’s absence).
Phoenix: Yes, it was the T7 of Conflux, but let’s not forget it was originally the T7 of H2 Sorceress. H3 replaced it with the Green Dragon, a controversial decision. It returned in H4’s Preserve. H5 went back to Dragons, making it a toss-up.
Let’s also remember that Conflux was largely composed of pure Elementals. It wasn’t even part of the original H3 plan, just a last-minute substitute after Forge was scrapped due to fan backlash.
So, does OE’s Sylvan share some elements with Conflux?
Yes —but it shares just as much, if not more, with the entire legacy of Nature towns throughout the series. If anything, it's spiritually closest to H2's Sorceress, my favorite version of the Nature town... Until now.
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kesnarii
Hired Hero
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posted May 02, 2025 10:02 AM |
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My biggest concern from Sylvan is that it is supposed to be all nature and beast-y, but it doesn't seem to have some big bad beast. All of its creatures seem elegant and "friendly"...
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted May 02, 2025 10:10 AM |
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kesnarii said:
My biggest concern from Sylvan is that it is supposed to be all nature and beast-y, but it doesn't seem to have some big bad beast. All of its creatures seem elegant and "friendly"...
But Sylvan has a good alignment. What you describe makes me more think of H3 Fortress.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted May 02, 2025 11:14 AM |
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Mm, I'd disagree that the Hoplet is an iteration of the Pixie. It might fill the same role, but by that measure, a Thunderbird could stand in for a Phoenix, which I don't think anyone would buy.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted May 02, 2025 01:32 PM |
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Then it's a new creature, like the Faun.
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kesnarii
Hired Hero
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posted May 02, 2025 02:10 PM |
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Galaad said:
kesnarii said:
My biggest concern from Sylvan is that it is supposed to be all nature and beast-y, but it doesn't seem to have some big bad beast. All of its creatures seem elegant and "friendly"...
But Sylvan has a good alignment. What you describe makes me more think of H3 Fortress.
Does it though? For example Octavia's bio seems to imply that Sylvan is more towards Neutral than Good...
Regarding H3 Fortress, I agree. What I would expect is something more akin to it.
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TrueMefista
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 02, 2025 08:33 PM |
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Galaad said:
Faun: First appearance in the series..
No, it was in H4 (satyr and faun in mythology do differ, but not so much in popculture)
Quote:
Hoplet: A Pixie iteration, .
A grass bug isn't pixie, no matter how you roll. It could have been a dryad, but even then it is stretching it.
Quote:
Qilin: Previously seen only in Sanctuary. Here, it fills the Unicorn's role, just as the Deer did in H7, based on fan votes (ironically, also by some now lamenting the Unicorn’s absence)
No-one in their right mind would have chosen a deer over unicorn, and we all know Ubi faked the polls either way.
Quote:
Conflux wasn’t even part of the original H3 plan, just a last-minute substitute after Forge was scrapped due to fan backlash
What? No, it was planned for SoD, but Forge cancellation made them move it and breathe through development at breakneck pace.
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FirePaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted May 02, 2025 09:59 PM |
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Yes, as @TrueMefista says, Gregory Fulton always wanted to make an "elemental faction", meant to be an echo of H2 Sorceress (with the pixies and phoenixes). That's what Conflux was, and it was realized earlier, in Armageddon's Blade, rather than in a future expansion. How much the lineup would have been different can be a subject for debate, but I am personally doubtful that Greg would have opted for something significantly different from the final one.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted May 02, 2025 10:38 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 10:22, 03 May 2025.
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I stand corrected. Did not play h4 much tbh, had completely forgotten about the satyrs.
Still, OE's Sylvan does not feel like an elemental town.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted May 03, 2025 10:36 AM |
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TrueMefista said:
Galaad said:
Faun: First appearance in the series..
No, it was in H4 (satyr and faun in mythology do differ, but not so much in popculture)
Right! H4! Ok my mythical creatures dictionary says
faun (n/Greek & Roman mythology) a half-human and half-goat
satyr (n/Greek mythology) a man with a horse's ears and tail, but in Roman representations as a man with a goat's ears, tail, legs, and horns
And satyr is a legenadary lecher.. I haven't, but I bring from the internet says that
Satyriasis is uncontrolled sexual hyperactivity in men who have little or no capacity for deep emotional involvement. 1. The term derives from the Satyr, the half-man, half-goat Sylvan diety of Green mythology who reveled in the sexual orgies that highlighted in Dionysian grape festivals
So small error.. My dictionary is a accurate fact.. Ok faun is more "beauty"
And then faun upgrades to satyr, if nice..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted May 03, 2025 11:03 AM |
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I think one important difference here is that this Sylvan is a town of fantasy creatures (ie, those made up by the author, rather than drawn from another source), rather than the previous ones, which have been mythological or folkloric ones.
Heroes 1
Sprite - European Folklore
Dwarf - Norse mythology
Elf - Norse mythology
Druid - Irish folklore/mythology
Unicorn - Indian mythology originally
Phoenix - Egyptian mythology
Heroes 2
Same as Heroes 1
Heroes 3
Centaur - Greek mythology
Pegasus - Greek mythology
Dendroid - Fantasy (possibly derived from Tolkien's Ents)
Dragon - European Folklore
Heroes 4
Wolf - real animal
White Tiger - real animal
Griffin - Greek/Roman mythology
Fairie Dragon - Fantasy
Heroes 5
Blade Dance - a type of Elf
Treant - a renamed Dendroid
Heroes 7
Dryad - Greek mythology
Moon Doe - Fantasy
Now look at OE Sylvan. Sure the Faun, Qilin and Phoenix have their origins in mythology (Greek/Roman, Chinese and Egyptian respectively), but the Hoplet, Iriyad and Aqualotl are all pure fantasy, and the Herbomancer is very close to it.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted May 03, 2025 01:52 PM |
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MattII said:
I think one important difference here is that this Sylvan is a town of fantasy creatures (ie, those made up by the author, rather than drawn from another source), rather than the previous ones, which have been mythological or folkloric ones.
Heroes 1
Dwarf - Norse mythology
Elf - Norse mythology
Unicorn - Indian mythology originally
Phoenix - Egyptian mythology
Heroes 3
Dragon - European Folklore
Heroes 4
Griffin - Greek/Roman mythology
Ok when I checked on my mythical creatures - dictionary.. It says
dwarf (o/n/Germanic folklore & mythology) a member of a mythical race of short, stocky humanlike creatures who are generally skilled in mining and metalworking
elf (o/North Germanic mythology & folklore) a supernatural creature, typically represented as a small, delicate, elusive figure in human form with pointed ears, magical powers, and a capricious nature
unicorn (n/worldwide) a horse with a single straight horn projecting from its forehead
phoenix (n/Greek mythology) a bird that cyclically burns to death and is reborn from its own ashes
dragon (n/worldwide) a large, frightening imaginary animal, often represented with wings, a long tail, and fire coming out of its mouth
griffin (n/Greek mythology) a legendary creature with the body, tail, and back legs of a lion; the head and wings of an eagle
If fact is important to others..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted May 03, 2025 04:01 PM |
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MattII said:
the Hoplet, Iriyad and Aqualotl are all pure fantasy, and the Herbomancer is very close to it.
Yeah, it’s frustrating, but not as surprising when I see how Hive turned out. They’re given the opportunity to make an entirely new line up and there’s almost no mythology. What’s even the point of this olden era setting if the classic creatures are mostly absent? Dragon utopias, a handful of neutral creatures, and hexagon battlefields seems to be the extent of it.
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kesnarii
Hired Hero
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posted May 03, 2025 05:44 PM |
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MattII said:
Now look at OE Sylvan. Sure the Faun, Qilin and Phoenix have their origins in mythology (Greek/Roman, Chinese and Egyptian respectively), but the Hoplet, Iriyad and Aqualotl are all pure fantasy, and the Herbomancer is very close to it.
I a pretty sure Iryads are based off of Oreads, which are basically mountain dryads. A reimagintion of them as mountain spirits.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oread
Δρυς (Drys) is oak in greek
Όρος (oros) is mountain in greek.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 03, 2025 06:28 PM |
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LordCameron said:
And they've got that weird Warcraft ear thing going on where elf ears changed from "slightly pointy" to "two foot long cow ears for some reason".
I also agree about the autumn stuff, it would really make it feel less like a radioactive wasteland.
Similar to how I think base line mythology draws on the power of the human consciousness, greens and blues in their natural place also draw on the innate sense of beauty humans hold.
I really like these takes.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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LordCameron
Famous Hero
Veteran of the Succession Wars
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posted May 03, 2025 06:54 PM |
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I think Matt and Green Dragon have nailed it. Homm draws on mythology and the Sylvan feel removed.
To be fair, Homm3 did a lot weird things (like the Gorgon and Behemoth) but at least the concept was still mythological even if the design was DND and Star Wars
Beholders and dendroid are less forgivable, but maybe it could be argued they still embody a pure archetype, or that Tolkien and Dungeons and Dragons have joined the human mythos via transcendence or something.
I'm thinking as well of Homm V which technically drew on mythology for most of its stuff, but the designs were from Fable and Kingdom Hearts? and Warcraft instead of classical takes, which made it feel strange.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted May 03, 2025 08:42 PM |
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Ghost said:
dwarf (o/n/Germanic folklore & mythology) a member of a mythical race of short, stocky humanlike creatures who are generally skilled in mining and metalworking
This mostly comes up in the Norse sagas, particularly the Prose Edda.
Quote:
elf (o/North Germanic mythology & folklore) a supernatural creature, typically represented as a small, delicate, elusive figure in human form with pointed ears, magical powers, and a capricious nature
These elves are likely drawn (potentially through Tolkien) from the Norse Ljósálfar, or 'Light Elves'.
Quote:
unicorn (n/worldwide) a horse with a single straight horn projecting from its forehead
First shows up in Indian mythology, which is where the Greeks got it from.
Quote:
phoenix (n/Greek mythology) a bird that cyclically burns to death and is reborn from its own ashes
Ah, my bad.
Quote:
dragon (n/worldwide) a large, frightening imaginary animal, often represented with wings, a long tail, and fire coming out of its mouth
The design, up until Heroes 7 was definitely from European mythology.
Quote:
griffin (n/Greek mythology) a legendary creature with the body, tail, and back legs of a lion; the head and wings of an eagle
I did say Greek/Roman.
kesnarii said:
I a pretty sure Iryads are based off of Oreads, which are basically mountain dryads. A reimagintion of them as mountain spirits.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oread
Δρυς (Drys) is oak in greek
Όρος (oros) is mountain in greek.
You make this link, how? The name? I don't see how a shambling mound of wood and stone bears any relation to a very definitely humanoid spirit.
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