| Faction Discussion — Schism |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 05, 2025 01:26 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 13:42, 05 Sep 2025.
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JollyJoker said:
There is no "point". You don't like what you see, personal taste and all, but arguing with "right way" and "wrong way" is just claiming too much here because it would mean that everything who likes it or have no problems with it would follow "the wrong way", liking an abomination or something like that - it's accusing these people they have no idea about what is right and what is wrong.
But there is nothing right and nothing wrong. It's a game, the devs can go the way they want, and that either leads to a great game or it doesn't. In the end you will either like to play the game or you won't.
It's like with the Forge. Same thing, for many NWC was doing it "the wrong way", and when they were forced onto the right way they really went the wrong way with HoMM 4 (not that this would be MY point of view, as I already said, there is no such thing).
Just let the devs do it, then play the damn thing and if it's not right for you, then, well, bad luck for you.
I promise to you there is a point, the one that ties in the fact that this is supposed to be a Heroes of Might and Magic game. You say those words, you already have a framework by necessity, no matter how rudimentary, elusive, or loosely defined. It's there, it has to be. It's what a room full of devs would sit down for many sessions to define as IP. If you deny that, then there's no end to the abyss of relativity you consign yourself to and this game might as well be anything. But no, it's not that subject to preference and whim, it's something tangible derived from legacy. We're not wandering aimlessly not knowing what to expect from a sequel in the series, quite the contrary actually and that's why we're here. And towards that goal there definitely is a "right way" and a "wrong way" to go about it and that is in relation to staying faithful to the spirit of its predecessors. The are decisions that can bring the game closer to that target, like there are decisions that put them more off track from that. And with the principles of design from other series, we are equipped to recognize that and I'll give you the best example of that in Sanctuary. For all the criticism Heroes 6 endured, that faction was not one of them. It had Kirin, Kenshi, Yuki-Onna, Kappas, Coral Priestesses which I type from memory because they were recognizable mythological creatures with a good theme around them, and it's that what cemented the faction as one of the worthy entries in the series despite being completely new. Now contrast that with this Schism faction and you'll see there's nothing recognizable or Heroes about it. This is what people notice at a glance almost instinctively, and you can look at ninjata12 as well as others on the first page of this thread to see my point. Which is why this faction faces an issue of recognizability, since it doesn't appear to be a Heroes faction.
And no, just slapping the label on something doesn't make it Heroes, but feel free to disagree that way.
Also, you misunderstand me. I like the faction more than I do not for what it is, it's just that I can concede there's nothing particularly evocative of "Heroes" to it. There's a distinction there.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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MattII 
Legendary Hero
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posted September 05, 2025 01:47 PM |
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kesnarii said:
You say that and then you go on to make an argument from a creative standpoint and not financial one.
That's true. But I believe this 'all or nothing' approach to innovation will hurt sales to some degree.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 05, 2025 01:56 PM |
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I disagree a lot with you. If you played the series from the beginning - there were no factions in the sense the word is used in HoMM 3. It started with the Knight and a medieval, non-fantasy Grassland faction, the Sorceress and a mythical Wood faction, the Barbarian and a Rough mythical ugly-beast faction and the Warlock and Swampland mythical being faction culminating with Dragons.
Homm 2 simply added a Necromacer Dirt/Earth faction with undead (NON-mythological I might add, importantly), and another Grassland faction, Wizard, with a mix of Golems, the Roc and Halflings.
I sum that up as FAIRY TALE mythology or, to make it clear STORY-based mythology, that is classical mythology as well as modern mythology with Halflings and especially the undead.
HoMM 3 gave faction names. The Conflux is BS. Inferno and Fortress can still be summed up as Fairy Tale Mythology.
HoMM 4 has none of that, just Might, Nature, Order, Chaos, Life and Death. Isn't it a heroes game?
Ubisoft took this to another "plane", giving things a different name.
Schism is Lovecraftian - story-based mythology. It's comparable with Necropolis.
I don't see your problem. Or your point.
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purerogue3
Known Hero
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posted September 05, 2025 05:27 PM |
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The plot was lost for me a long time ago - necro and devils are as far out as I'm willing to go. (Not to invalidate this thread in any way)
But I realize that's just me with a heavy Anglo-slant, and as a series progresses everybody would want representation.
Cannon=what has had the greatest influence leading up to the current reality
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted September 05, 2025 06:32 PM |
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Sanctuary really was a great faction with a broad enough theme to include all of those memorable units. Shame that it never got a chance to shine being stuck in a game like H6.
You know what would have made Sanctuary disappointment instead? If the Sharkmen, Kappa, and Yuki-Onna were all replaced with 3 more naga units.
Schism and Hive both feel like a step backwards in faction design. We should be moving further away from using generic race units to fill slots. Vori elves are a cool addition and i'm glad to see them have a presence in Olden Era but using them for 4 of the 7 slots feels like too much. Hive is the same way with their generic fire bugs. H5 fortress is like the worst designed faction in the series because of this same issue of stretching a concept too thin. At some point, the whole concept becomes watered down and even the cooler units are "just another thing" whether its a tentacle monster, a Fire bug, or dwarf warrior.
I certainly hope they don't design a new swamp fortress this way. We don't need 3-4 different tiers of lizardmen, thats not what made H3 fortress special.
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LordCameron
Famous Hero
Veteran of the Succession Wars
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posted September 05, 2025 06:51 PM |
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The_Green_Drag said:
Sanctuary really was a great faction with a broad enough theme to include all of those memorable units. Shame that it never got a chance to shine being stuck in a game like H6.
You know what would have made Sanctuary disappointment instead? If the Sharkmen, Kappa, and Yuki-Onna were all replaced with 3 more naga units.
Schism and Hive both feel like a step backwards in faction design. We should be moving further away from using generic race units to fill slots. Vori elves are a cool addition and i'm glad to see them have a presence in Olden Era but using them for 4 of the 7 slots feels like too much. Hive is the same way with their generic fire bugs. H5 fortress is like the worst designed faction in the series because of this same issue of stretching a concept too thin. At some point, the whole concept becomes watered down and even the cooler units are "just another thing" whether its a tentacle monster, a Fire bug, or dwarf warrior.
I certainly hope they don't design a new swamp fortress this way. We don't need 3-4 different tiers of lizardmen, thats not what made H3 fortress special.
I don't even like it in Homm III how goblins ride the wolves and are also a stand alone unit. Plus Ogres, Orcs, and Goblins, (and trolls) all became Warhammer style variations of the same green skin horde.
In Homm II goblins were savages, orcs were pig heads, Ogres were cow people, and trolls were mystical. And wolves were wolves.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 05, 2025 07:37 PM |
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Then you probably hate the Knight faczion in HoMM 2 because it has virtually 6 human units, just in different clothing and in one case on a horse. And don't tell me "it's different because".
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TrueMefista
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 05, 2025 08:21 PM |
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All-human knight faction was a case of playing it safe, for that type of person who wants to self-insert. Be a shining hero, and stuff.
Sanctuary has two semi-identical water-elemented women, and would not have been remotely so beloved if it was not for "thing, Japan" crowd. As nagas are mostly Indian, you bet a more "realistic" hinduist-mythology-based Sanctuary would not have been that popular. Even tho it would be just as cool.
...I kinda forgot what I was going to say on-topic, blame my meds ><'
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted September 05, 2025 08:29 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Then you probably hate the Knight faczion in HoMM 2 because it has virtually 6 human units, just in different clothing and in one case on a horse. And don't tell me "it's different because".
'Hate' is too strong a word for it, but I've long held a degree of disliked the Knight faction for this reason. I feel it's the weakest faction in the series, in terms of 'innovation'.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 05, 2025 08:49 PM |
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I think, the weak thing with the Knight faction in the first two HoMMs is the fact that it is acompletely MUNDANE faction (unit-wise). As medieval as it gets - and it still has magic.
That "odd thing" was corrected in HoMM 3. Castle faction is, imo, WAY better than the original one, making the whole thing magic with Angels, Griffins and Zelots (and I completely understand how Ubisoft built the Griffin Empire out of that: makes total sense.
Which is somewhat the thing: Ashan MAKES SENSE - too much so. The fairy tale character is left behind. The game is too grown-up.
That's what makes Ashan so un-HoMMish: too grown-up.
I think OE is changing that back to HoMM 3 level.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted September 05, 2025 09:48 PM |
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I will say this for OE, with Hive taking over lava terrain, the chances of an actual 'demon' faction showing up in any future expansion are pretty remote. I never really liked the demons, too unambiguously 'evil'. Also, for all that I've complained about the overdo of 'innovation' in Sylvan, I don't think every change was bad, I just wish they'd kept a couple of units from the previous game, say Sprites instead of Hoplets, and Unicorns instead of Qilin.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 05, 2025 10:08 PM |
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"The Demons" are another too-serious Ashan invention. The Inferno in HoMM 3 is pretty cool, though.
Anyway, no problem. Unicorns are probably considered too mundane - glorified horses with a cliché ability. :?
I mean, everyone has their favorites and not-so-favorites: I consider Wizard/Tower pretty lame, creature-wise, but I have no problems with others liking it or would try to tell people that Tower/Wizard/Order sucks.
I very much like the HoMM 1/2 Unicorn, but from then on it gets pretty lackluster.
It's all very subjective. I mean, for me "The Forge" has always been a perfectly fitting mix of Frankenstein story and SF theme (Inferno-Level). For others it was a fantasy-killing abomination. Go figure.
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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted September 05, 2025 11:27 PM |
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I think the reason Forge was hit so hard with pushback was its visual aesthetic. It looked way too modern. Tall metallic buildings with giant windows illuminated from within by white fluorescent lights. Nuclear green waste moat. A paved concrete road with street lights lining it (or is it a runway?). The giant Vegas-style fountain out front of the city hall. The whole town screen looks like a military-industrial complex. All brutalist architecture. A concrete jungle that really clashed with the rest of the theming of the game.
The foundation and idea of Forge was solid. However, the visuals they chose to go with the idea were really far out and pretty bad taste. If they had gone less heavy handed on the sci-fi and attempted a more steampunk or magi-tech look, it would have definitely been received more positively.
LordCameron said:
I don't even like it in Homm III how goblins ride the wolves and are also a stand alone unit. Plus Ogres, Orcs, and Goblins, (and trolls) all became Warhammer style variations of the same green skin horde.
As opposed to a human spearman, a human knight, and a human riding a horse? 
Goblins, Ogres, and Orcs, do have subtle visual differences still. Kind of hard to see them unless you are not staring at their creature picture. But I do see your point. Although personally it never bothered me.
I always looked at it as they are the backbone of the town's populous, like humans in Castle. And the other creatures are a rarity that inhabit the lands of that faction. Like Gnolls and Lizardmen being the "race" of Fortress, and the rest of the roster are just monsters they have tamed.
A lot of the posts above me talk about the monotony of the rosters, and I would just like to counter with; if the factions all had 7 unique units and no duplicates or same race for x amount of slots. That makes making a new faction's roster harder. You need 7 unique creatures that still fit the theme of whatever faction you are designing.
After awhile you will hit the roadblock of we can't do this unit because this faction has something similar. Like how only 2 factions have dragons in HoMM 3. Even though there are numerous other types of dragons that are neutral creatures, it highlights both Rampart and Dungeon and how they came to have these dragons within their factions. Rampart forming deep bonds of friendship with the dragons, and Dungeon subjugating and breaking the dragons.
Fairy tales and mythology all derive from the same or similar stories, just told in different manners and regions across the globe. But there are only so many iterations and versions you can use before you start to see similarities and things start to get stale. For instance there's like 7 versions of a Griffon that differ based on what region it originates from. But they're all a Griffon, no matter how it looks.
I see both sides. I get why they do it, but I feel like Schism and Hive could've had a bit more variety instead of what we got. But at the same time, the factions are still cool. I dunno, it is a fine line to walk. I am just happy we are getting a Heroes game that has soul and passion in it instead of a heartless cash grab that Ubi has done in the past.
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"Just slide her down a bit farther. I could wear her like a hat." - Gnomes
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TrueMefista
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 05, 2025 11:47 PM |
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I can not login normally somehow, only messages allow me to, header thingie keeps claiming wrong password...
Either way, I agree on Forge being too modern-looking, and its units only partially fit said modern aesthetic, as well.
Quote:
But there are only so many iterations and versions you can use before you start to see similarities and things start to get stale. For instance there's like 7 versions of a Griffon that differ based on what region it originates from. But they're all a Griffon, no matter how it looks
You can use yalis and makara, less known yokai and heraldic beasts, people just dip into modern fantasy make-a-unit (choose animal, make anthro or infuse with an element, or both) before they do these. There are droves of interesting creatures, who go completely unused.
You can use multiple gryphons, as well, not modern fantasy way, where bird and backside get swapped out for diffirent animals, but make others opinicus or keythong or anzud or others.
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MurlocAggroB
Known Hero
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posted September 05, 2025 11:56 PM |
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That point about Forge looking too modern is interesting, and I never thought of it like that and I agree with it completely. Had it looked more straight-up sci-fi, I think a lot more people would've been fine with it. Like, I've hardly seen any backlash over the Worldwatchers introduced in this game, and they're literally Protoss probes. I think sleek sci-fi blends into fantasy way more smoothly than Forge's cyberpunk aesthetic.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 05, 2025 11:57 PM |
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Hmm.
M&M world was never high fantasy. It was always SF fantasy. Forge fits into M&M. If you don't know M&M you might think otherwise - but HoMM was never a game that explicitely couldn't go futuristic. In fact, I even find it cool on the background of this "if tech level is high enough, you cannot distinguish tech from magic".
Magic can be high-level tech and the Forge might have been a great reminder.
That said, I think all Forge art leaked was conceptual only, right?
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MurlocAggroB
Known Hero
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posted September 06, 2025 12:03 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
M&M world was never high fantasy. It was always SF fantasy. Forge fits into M&M. If you don't know M&M you might think otherwise - but HoMM was never a game that explicitely couldn't go futuristic.
Lorewise yes, but I'm thinking hypothetically about the reception. I think the backlash wouldn't have been as fierce without the recognizably modern designs.
JollyJoker said:
That said, I think all Forge art leaked was conceptual only, right?
Technically yes, but there was no way it wasn't going to look like that. The expansion was coming out in just a few months. Also it wasn't leaked, it was announced at E3 1999. The only thing that was leaked AFIAK is the topless naga tank, which was just a gag that wasn't supposed to leave the office.
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kesnarii
Hired Hero
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posted September 06, 2025 08:51 AM |
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MurlocAggroB said:
That point about Forge looking too modern is interesting, and I never thought of it like that and I agree with it completely. Had it looked more straight-up sci-fi, I think a lot more people would've been fine with it. Like, I've hardly seen any backlash over the Worldwatchers introduced in this game, and they're literally Protoss probes. I think sleek sci-fi blends into fantasy way more smoothly than Forge's cyberpunk aesthetic.
Well nowadays people are more accepting of science fantasy than the late 90s. Steampunk and magiteck are mostly children of the 00s. And in the meantime there were various science fantasy books and TV series.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted September 06, 2025 11:43 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 11:44, 06 Sep 2025.
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JollyJoker said:
"The Demons" are another too-serious Ashan invention. The Inferno in HoMM 3 is pretty cool, though.
Hm, can you run that one past me again? Sure H5 swaps out the Gog and the Efreet for the Succubus and the Nightmare, but I'm struggling to see how that makes it more serious.
JollyJoker said:
Anyway, no problem. Unicorns are probably considered too mundane - glorified horses with a cliché ability. :?
Fair point. I only mentioned it because it's a long-time 'nature faction' unit, that could be easily swapped in without severely changing the visual appearance of the lineup, not because I'm tied to it.
JollyJoker said:
I mean, everyone has their favorites and not-so-favorites: I consider Wizard/Tower pretty lame, creature-wise, but I have no problems with others liking it or would try to tell people that Tower/Wizard/Order sucks.
Hm, with Golems, Wizards and Titans having having been in the entire series to date, genies coming in Heroes 3 and never leaving, plus Gargoyles, I can see what you mean about a lack of creativity.
JollyJoker said:
It's all very subjective. I mean, for me "The Forge" has always been a perfectly fitting mix of Frankenstein story and SF theme (Inferno-Level). For others it was a fantasy-killing abomination. Go figure.
As someone who's only played the 'Heroes' games, I found it rather disconcerting in appearance.
Oddball13579 said:
The foundation and idea of Forge was solid. However, the visuals they chose to go with the idea were really far out and pretty bad taste. If they had gone less heavy handed on the sci-fi and attempted a more steampunk or magi-tech look, it would have definitely been received more positively.
The thing is, as you note, the appearance of the Force was modern industrial not scifi, though I'd agree a that a more steampunk/magitech look would have gone over more favourably.
Oddball13579 said:
I always looked at it as they are the backbone of the town's populous, like humans in Castle. And the other creatures are a rarity that inhabit the lands of that faction. Like Gnolls and Lizardmen being the "race" of Fortress, and the rest of the roster are just monsters they have tamed.
Gnolls and Lizardmen get one unit each, humans get five.
Oddball13579 said:
A lot of the posts above me talk about the monotony of the rosters, and I would just like to counter with; if the factions all had 7 unique units and no duplicates or same race for x amount of slots. That makes making a new faction's roster harder. You need 7 unique creatures that still fit the theme of whatever faction you are designing.
5-6 per faction, since at least one or two will be the "race" unit(s). And Heroes 3 managed it with 7 factions (excluding Castle), plus some left-overs, and they didn't even use anything like all of the mythical creatures available.
Oddball13579 said:
After awhile you will hit the roadblock of we can't do this unit because this faction has something similar. Like how only 2 factions have dragons in HoMM 3. Even though there are numerous other types of dragons that are neutral creatures, it highlights both Rampart and Dungeon and how they came to have these dragons within their factions. Rampart forming deep bonds of friendship with the dragons, and Dungeon subjugating and breaking the dragons.
3, Necropolis had Bone Dragons. Plus, the other dragons only turned up in Armageddon's Blade any way.
Oddball13579 said:
Fairy tales and mythology all derive from the same or similar stories, just told in different manners and regions across the globe. But there are only so many iterations and versions you can use before you start to see similarities and things start to get stale. For instance there's like 7 versions of a Griffon that differ based on what region it originates from. But they're all a Griffon, no matter how it looks.
That's true, but f.e. griffons are different from Manticores or tigers or Rocs.
kesnarii said:
Well nowadays people are more accepting of science fantasy than the late 90s. Steampunk and magiteck are mostly children of the 00s. And in the meantime there were various science fantasy books and TV series.
Steampunk goes back at least as far as the 1880s (Jules Verne's The Steam House was published in 1880), while Magitech might be even older.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 06, 2025 02:30 PM |
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MattII said:
JollyJoker said:
"The Demons" are another too-serious Ashan invention. The Inferno in HoMM 3 is pretty cool, though.
Hm, can you run that one past me again? Sure H5 swaps out the Gog and the Efreet for the Succubus and the Nightmare, but I'm struggling to see how that makes it more serious.
I mean, in general. Up to and including HoMM 4 HoMM is somewhat "cute". Even the Inferno. The Devils with their come-on gesture, the Pit Lords, the Imps - they are FUN. It's virtually fairy tale/Disney level.
Ashan changed it into something more "mature". Serious background story. Demons from the core of the world, invading. The Demons of Ashan are UGLY and brutal-looking. The Demons in Homm 3 are cute. Creatures don't really matter, the whole imagery got changed into seriously eek.
That's my general Ashan aesthetics complaint. The single creature art can be a bit better or not so great, hit and miss, personal tastes, but the general art style is something else, and the Ashan Infernov makes it a different faction (I actually had not much fun playing).
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