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JollyJoker
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posted October 31, 2026 11:04 AM |
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@ artu
I lost your point. What are you trying to tell me? NO entity in this world has "common good" on their agenda. "Common" meaning everyone, at least for their domain, but everyone. NONE. Science is in a big crisis, especially physics: papers are written just to justify the funding, AI is doing papers, science is a mess. The world is no paradise, far from it. Colonial richess did a lot for Europe to be able to "advance" (so it did that on the back of the rest of the world) and the USA are an ex-colony, as well as Canada.
What I wanted to say is, that there is no fundamental difference between belief systems that way, that religion isn't bullcrap while the rest scientifically proven. It's just different. All systems have their strengths and weaknesses. None is objectively the best or the real thing or whatever.
Systems have worked one way or another in different times and evolved, for the good of many - but not all - individuals. For some regions better than for others. But for the species as such I'm not so sure.
The USA being secular or not - on the federal level, yes, because the constitution says so, although the president is still taking an inauguration oath on the bible. But not in reality. In reality they are not. As in all men are created equal, but in reality they aren't, are they? Which is in itself telling. Because the constitution is pretty old, but there is still this big difference between the written word and what is actually happening.
So what do you want to tell me in this nice discussion?
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted October 31, 2026 03:37 PM |
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What I’m saying is quite obvious:
Just because all ideologies are belief systems (and just because there isnt a straight hierarchical ladder with “a worst ideology at everything” at the bottom and “a best ideology at everything” at the top), it doesnt mean that some are much more efficient and less anachronical than others. Separation of ancient dogma and state law is a pretty big win regarding that, under almost any contemporary circumstance.
And yes, U.S.A. is secular and not just on paper, and I say this with first hand experience with “just secular on paper” policies. Most you can say is that secularism never works with a 100 percent efficiency and in the U.S., secularism is less efficient compared to Nordic countries. But they are way above the threshold of “doing okay” regarding the issue.
I dont know what you mean by “scientifically proven” since ideologies have normative values and scientific proof does not. Science can give you statistical data about wealth, freedom of speech, production levels of artistic or academic output, civil rights, length of life etc. But it cant tell you what is “better.” With an overdose of cultural relativism, one can easily propose “who is to decide life in Denmark is better than life in Afganistan for a teenage girl” and science can not falsify such a judgement value. That doesnt make it plausible though and if you say something like “that is subjective” I wont even bother to reply.
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JollyJoker
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posted October 31, 2026 05:49 PM |
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artu said:
What I’m saying is quite obvious:
Just because all ideologies are belief systems (and just because there isnt a straight hierarchical ladder with “a worst ideology at everything” at the bottom and “a best ideology at everything” at the top), it doesnt mean that some are much more efficient and less anachronical than others. Separation of ancient dogma and state law is a pretty big win regarding that, under almost any contemporary circumstance.
I didn't say that. A couple of posts before we had already established that, that the second part was your point, not mine. It was like you couldn't leave that stand without pointing out that there are qualitative differences and that there has been a development for the good.
And while that seems obvious when you look at hygiene and medicine and whatnot, it's also way more complicated than that. Vaccination against pox is a Chinese invention - not a Western scientific one (Chinese were first). Chinese also came up with a lot of other stuff.
Same is true for the Roman Empire the legal system of them being the blueprint for ours, whereas people still can't explain the exactness of the blocks of Pyramid construction and the minimal deviation. Generally spoken, China seems to have fared pretty well, no matter the belief system they've been operating under.
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And yes, U.S.A. is secular and not just on paper, and I say this with first hand experience with “just secular on paper” policies. Most you can say is that secularism never works with a 100 percent efficiency and in the U.S., secularism is less efficient compared to Nordic countries. But they are way above the threshold of “doing okay” regarding the issue.
And that's whyt I disagree with. They aren't operating under an threshold of doing ok, not in my book, at least. Human dignity in general isn't anywhere inviolable, least in the USa, Guantanamo Bay, their prisons, their treatment of illegal immigrants (and those who they think are some) and so on. Why being happy with a cheap varnish when the core is still rotten? Claiming something, but then stepping and spitting on it isn't cool.
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I dont know what you mean by “scientifically proven” since ideologies have normative values and scientific proof does not. Science can give you statistical data about wealth, freedom of speech, production levels of artistic or academic output, civil rights, length of life etc. But it cant tell you what is “better.” With an overdose of cultural relativism, one can easily propose “who is to decide life in Denmark is better than life in Afganistan for a teenage girl” and science can not falsify such a judgement value. That doesnt make it plausible though and if you say something like “that is subjective” I wont even bother to reply.
I don't think you need that hyperbole for that point. Of course life for a young girl is better in Denmark than in Afghanistan. But Afghanistan isn't based on a religious belief system, but on an extrem male dominance system. In India female babies are still killed in the country - but not out of religious reasons.
Basically spoken, I don't think that the problem is religious or secular, I think the problem is paternalistic vs. men and womnen are truly equal. Paternalistic crap is keeping humanity down in the trenches instead of sharing stuff to progress and advance in peace. And again: it doesn't matter whether the constitution is actually saaying so, although it's a first step. It must become real, and I don't think it's happenstance that I'd point to Scandinavia yet again in that regard.
You might say now, yeah, it's secularism that makes it possible, but that would be fully true only if there was no paternalism in China or Japan. Or in communist countries. It is, though. On the other hand I would identify this as the biggest problem of the know religious belief system, not inflexibility, but paternalism.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted October 31, 2026 09:04 PM |
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I meant they’re doing okay regrarding the separation of state and church, which seems very clear to me, looking at the context of my sentence.
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JollyJoker
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posted October 31, 2026 10:34 PM |
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And I think they don't.
But as I said I also don't think that's the REAL problem. (Or you might say, the fact that the division between state and religion isn't working so well is because the real problem is paternalism.)
Fun fact I just stumbled upon in a completely different context:
You want to be treated by a female surgeon.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 01, 2026 03:33 AM |
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What does the bad treatment of prisoners have to do with separation of church and state? You’re just shifting the subject.
And even if the real problem is patriarchy, as if there is supposed to be only one real problem, how does religions from much more patriarchal eras shaping laws have a neutral effect on this? Secularism doesnt matter as long as you have a feminist interpretation of Islam? Good luck with that.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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