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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Creatures - quantity or quality ?
Thread: Creatures - quantity or quality ? [ This thread is 4 pages long: (1) 2 3 4 ]
Drizzt12
Drizzt12


Hired Hero
The drow of the underdark
posted July 09, 2002 02:50 PM

Creatures - quantity or quality ?

This is might sound weird but: during my games of homm4 with the barbarins i've always (like you all i guess) choose the cyclops insted of the oger mages cause it was not a balanced choise, but have you noticed that the growth of the ogre mages are 6 per week (double than cyclops !), i wante to ask you what's seem better and if you know some more things like this...  
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Big_Blackie
Big_Blackie


Adventuring Hero
Insanity is bliss...
posted July 09, 2002 06:56 PM

Let's put it this way: Does one weeks worth of Ogre Magi defeat One weeks worth of Cyclopes? Think about it. Whoever wins, you choose, right? But what about special abilities? And cost? 6 Ogre Magi should cost more than 3 Cyclopes. There are so many things to take into consideration, its really a matter of prefernce, am I right? Of course I am.
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Jester
Jester

Tavern Dweller
posted July 11, 2002 03:39 AM

Big Blackie is right....

...it´s all up to what you as a player prefer. Some decisions, according to me, are  easier to make though... In the selection between Ogre magies and Cyclops there is no doubt that Cyclops wins 9 out of 10 times because of the ranged attack and their special ability with rocks... Some other decisions are harder though.. Angels or Cavalary???
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Drizzt12
Drizzt12


Hired Hero
The drow of the underdark
posted July 11, 2002 01:14 PM

I think i don't agree with you two cause cyclops are not a defualt choice - bsides the growth of the ogers they have more HP and each one costs less, though i don't eliminate the cyclops possibility.
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Docrevenge
Docrevenge


Hired Hero
posted July 11, 2002 11:43 PM

Well like they said it's all about player pref.  I always go with the Cyclops because I am a ranged player, makes strategy a bit easier in my eyes to have a few heavy hitters to keep the enemy at bay while my ranged units and mage attack from a distance, but like I said, it's all about player prefrence and playing style

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god_boy
god_boy


Known Hero
posted July 22, 2002 04:54 AM

personally, i prefer the cyclops to ogre magi. this is not because i play barbarian all the time but because i would rather fight 50 ogre magi than 25 cyclopses.
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Henl86
Henl86


Known Hero
oLd SkOoL RA2 OwNaH
posted July 22, 2002 08:45 AM

If you fight 50 ogres, getting out without losses is easy witha  few ranged units and good heroes. Fighting 25 cyclopes without losses is impossible with the same force.
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Tortoise
Tortoise


Known Hero
Master of Reptiles.
posted July 22, 2002 09:42 AM

Hmmm... The age long question, quality or quantity....
Well if it was up to me, i'd say its all about the special =p         But then again that's just me...

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AzureMajesty
AzureMajesty


Promising
Adventuring Hero
Gaea Mother Earth
posted July 22, 2002 10:12 AM

Cyclops in Heroes 4 are nothing like the ones in Heroes 3. Take a closer look when you are in a battle using Cyclops, they can hit multiple units with one shot. If lined up correctly, you can hit 4-5 units with just the one shot, so I think the Cyclops are the better of the two, but each player has their own choice of creatures they like to play with.
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god_boy
god_boy


Known Hero
posted July 23, 2002 04:15 AM

another reason why i like to fight our 50 ogres: they give me a lot more experience points than the 25 cyclops as well as being easier to kill.

imho experience points gained should be based on the abilites of the creatures themselves and not just their hitpoints. what do you think?

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RobinHood
RobinHood


Known Hero
posted July 23, 2002 09:45 AM

Quote:
Well like they said it's all about player pref.  I always go with the Cyclops because I am a ranged player, makes strategy a bit easier in my eyes to have a few heavy hitters to keep the enemy at bay while my ranged units and mage attack from a distance, but like I said, it's all about player prefrence and playing style



Totally disagree !!! Sorry boys, if you choose your unit without thinking of your opponent you’re dead ! (OK you beat the IA anyway, but you must prepare for Multiplay…) For example if you’re fighting versus an Order there are many ways for him to avoid your Cyclops to shoot. He can : teleport them near his army, blind them, cast forgetfulness, song of peace (genies), hypnotize and so on…

The way you like to play is important but don’t forget who is your enemy and which units he has choosen (if you know it).

Quote:
If you fight 50 ogres, getting out without losses is easy witha few ranged units and good heroes. Fighting 25 cyclopes without losses is impossible with the same force .


Don’t agree. If they are in ONE (or two) group it’s easy to kill them the same way you should have killed the ogers. Any hero with 2nd level spell like Wasp swarm, Confusion, Song of Peace can avoid them to shoot. If you’re Necro use the vampires & if you’re Order it’s too easy.

This work well if they are alone. If they are in an army I must admit you’re in a bad day.

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bjorn190
bjorn190


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
posted July 23, 2002 10:15 AM

Plain and simple:
Cyclops are better   <--- It´s true


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god_boy
god_boy


Known Hero
posted July 30, 2002 03:14 AM

Quote:
Quote:
Well like they said it's all about player pref.  I always go with the Cyclops because I am a ranged player, makes strategy a bit easier in my eyes to have a few heavy hitters to keep the enemy at bay while my ranged units and mage attack from a distance, but like I said, it's all about player prefrence and playing style



Totally disagree !!! Sorry boys, if you choose your unit without thinking of your opponent you’re dead ! (OK you beat the IA anyway, but you must prepare for Multiplay…) For example if you’re fighting versus an Order there are many ways for him to avoid your Cyclops to shoot. He can : teleport them near his army, blind them, cast forgetfulness, song of peace (genies), hypnotize and so on…

The way you like to play is important but don’t forget who is your enemy and which units he has choosen (if you know it).

Quote:
If you fight 50 ogres, getting out without losses is easy witha few ranged units and good heroes. Fighting 25 cyclopes without losses is impossible with the same force .


Don’t agree. If they are in ONE (or two) group it’s easy to kill them the same way you should have killed the ogers. Any hero with 2nd level spell like Wasp swarm, Confusion, Song of Peace can avoid them to shoot. If you’re Necro use the vampires & if you’re Order it’s too easy.

This work well if they are alone. If they are in an army I must admit you’re in a bad day.



Sure, wasp swarm, confusion and song of peace will work on the cyclops, but wouldn't these spells also work on the ogre magi? I mean, at least the cyclopses will still retaliate when they are shot at but ogres and their relatively slow speed will be slaughtered trying to reach the enemy as the enemy rains fire and death upon them. Also, i would rather not give the enemy that many exp. points form killing my ogre magi.
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Drizzt12
Drizzt12


Hired Hero
The drow of the underdark
posted July 30, 2002 03:49 PM

I think you are correct, the choise of the creature building should be made according to the map you play and not something usual.
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Jester
Jester

Tavern Dweller
posted July 31, 2002 03:12 AM

Well..

..when playing, you often get more then one castle of the same align... This means that you´ll have the opportunity to choose two diffrent kinds of armies of the same level...

Is this a strategy that anyone uses or do you always take the same kind of armies in every castle to pile up to the maximum...Othervise you could have both ogrees and cyclops and use both of their strengths.....
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Nidhgrin
Nidhgrin


Honorable
Famous Hero
baking cookies from stardust
posted July 31, 2002 06:24 AM

Quote:
..when playing, you often get more then one castle of the same align... This means that you´ll have the opportunity to choose two diffrent kinds of armies of the same level...

Is this a strategy that anyone uses or do you always take the same kind of armies in every castle to pile up to the maximum...Othervise you could have both ogrees and cyclops and use both of their strengths.....


True, very true!  In the necropolis or the asylum this is certainly so, but for the stronghold I'd rather have twice as many cyclopes than a normal amount of them plus the magi.

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RobinHood
RobinHood


Known Hero
posted July 31, 2002 01:14 PM
Edited By: RobinHood on 31 Jul 2002

hmm...

Quote:
This means that you’ll have the opportunity to choose two different kinds of armies of the same level...



Yeah. That may be good. It depends on the number of heroes in your army & if you have built the 4th level creature dwelling. For example it’s useful against certain opponents to have in addition spellcasters creatures or units with cool specialties.

However I prefer most of time a big army with the same kind of creatures in all my castles.


Quote:

Sure, wasp swarm, confusion and song of peace will work on the cyclops, but wouldn't these spells also work on the ogre magi? I mean, at least the cyclopses will still retaliate when they are shot at but ogres and their relatively slow speed will be slaughtered trying to reach the enemy as the enemy rains fire and death upon them. Also, i would rather not give the enemy that many exp. points form killing my ogre magi.


When I talked about wasp warm and so on, it was not just only to avoid them to shoot. In 2 rounds more my units will slay the Cyclops in melee combat. Just imagine your Cyclops in melee combat compared with the double amount of Ogres. The Ogres are far far better.

In Multiplayer, THAT will appear (don't forget we're all playing now against a dumb AI) !!! Imagine YOU fighting against Barbarians with Cyclops… You first priority will be them (or 4th levels if you opponent has some). So you’ll use magic or send your flyers against them. In this case, the Cyclops will be able to use their area attack ONE time in the fight. After that they will be useless. Instead of Ogres which will be harder to kill & make so much damages in melee (don’t forget they have an awesome growth…)

I’m not trying to say that Ogres are always better. Nonono… But for me, the multiplayer patch will make them more attractive. If you play Might versus Order in a Small or Medium Map, you’d better choose Ogres. The main idea of my first post was to say: you MUST take care of the alignment of your opponent when you choose your creatures. I don’t say you must change the way you play. Only adapt it to the situation.

For the question “Quality or quantity?” my answer is quality.


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Re-Animator
Re-Animator


Adventuring Hero
posted July 31, 2002 02:39 PM

Ogre Magi vs. Cyclops

Another thing you people are forgetting regarding the two is the fact that Ogre Magi benefit far more from the Tactics movement boost than Cyclops.  

The key thing to consider when deciding between the two (in MP) is that it's not the relative advantages of the two (Cyclops - range, splash damage; Ogre Magi - more weekly HP (even Defense adjusted), increase others' damage) that matters as much as the relative weaknesses.  In MP you can generally block the Cyclops range ability by round 2 or 3 at the latest.  They are now no longer anywhere close to the threat they once were.

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RobinHood
RobinHood


Known Hero
posted August 02, 2002 01:24 AM

That's it !

Quote:
In MP you can generally block the Cyclops range ability by round 2 or 3 at the latest.  They are now no longer anywhere close to the threat they once were.


Ah ! Eh ! Someone who understand me

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Pug
Pug

Tavern Dweller
posted August 02, 2002 08:52 PM

I think it depends on the alignment you are playing against.
In the example of playing aginst order, but when it is against Necropolis, because of the relatively slow units, Cyclopses are better.
What happened to the good old days of HoMM 2, when you just gathered as many Black Dragons as you could, and cyclopses had laser eyes.
But drawing back to my point, it really is just stratagy dependent.

Quote:
In MP you can generally block the Cyclops range ability by round 2 or 3 at the latest. They are now no longer anywhere close to the threat they once were.
Quote:
Totally disagree !!! Sorry boys, if you choose your unit without thinking of your opponent you?re dead ! (OK you beat the IA anyway, but you must prepare for Multiplay?) For example if you?re fighting versus an Order there are many ways for him to avoid your Cyclops to shoot. He can : teleport them near his army, blind them, cast forgetfulness, song of peace (genies), hypnotize and so on?



You could actually turn these cons against cyclopses into pros, simply by standing a dwarf, for example, in front of your cyclopses in the direction of the genies, if there is another unit just to the left you could probably splash shoot them.
My strategy is summon, shoot and sky. I summon imps, demons, pheonixes or earth elementals are the best, but anything without a ranged attack, and charge, then when I am near enough to distract them or block off ranged units I defend. Or I just attack the ranged or spell casting units and keep re-summoning, while the enemy is distracted I shoot, cyclopses are also really good for this stratagy, because when the melee units go around the imp or whatever I splash him/her (there are female imps) and kill them all. Or just kill those to the right of him/her, or whatever. The best thing about this stratagy is that you almost never lose any units. But the cons are that it is easy to disable, song of peace the cyclopses you start to lose up, but once you have two or three, non-hero (because you can mass them to do more damage), shooting creatures it becomes harder to disable. Maybe two heroes one summoning fire and water elementals the other summoning imps or earth elementals, you become very hard to beat. That is one of the biggest advantages of summoned creatures, that you are happy to sacrifice them.
     A second strategy is the charge and buff (buff means things like haste and stoneskin, anything that increases your creatures effectiveness), this is what the ogre magi's were built for. It is a relitively basic strategy, if you are against ranged creatures charge your strongest creatures and either use the ogre magi to buff or fight. But probably the best thing to do is to have a hero casting all the different buffs (so it can't be a hero recruited from the might castle, I hope this is fixed up in the expansion, maybe a guild with  bloodlust sword upgrades) and having everyone charge them until all ranged creatures are diffused. One good thing about Heroes 4 compared to Heroes 3 is you get to choose the spell, so it is not random or just a single spell, use this to your advantage and cast the best spell for the situation (for example stoneskin is effective against archers, but bloodlust is not useful until you reach the intended target).
If you are against melee/flying, generaly you buff until they have moved close enough to you for you to attack them.
The advantages of this strategy is that you are incredibly hard to diffuse, the melee creatures are upon them before they can respond with magic.
The disadvantages are that you are prone to medium casualties.
A good strategy in a castle battle is to take the abuse from the mages and archers until the enemies melee reaches your castle gate. Then use your walkers against the creatures at your gate and fly your fliers to their shooters (for might it is generally either the Thunderbirds or the Harpies) but if you do use harpies just have it as melee, because fly and return will still allow the shooters to shoot. By the time their melee have come back to save their shooters, you would have diffused the threat and your fliers can escape (this is probably easier with the thunderbirds due to their speed.)

So what it all comes down to is strategy, because even the strongest of the Might or even the Necropolis would be able to beat a cyclops strategy, but an ogre magi is better against magic.

I would just like to add in here that magic resistance would be good, because the cyclopses wouldnt be confused, or song of peaced or whatever, and a magic dampener would be very effective.

One last thing is that the buff and charge, though against AI you will eventually have to charge almost always, is very effective when against a castle, because you can quickly take out the castle gate with your strong creatures, because you can't cast spells or shoot at it.

I hope that solves the issue to a reasonable extent the question of "Quantity vs. Quality" in regards to Cyclopses and Ogre magi

Pug

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