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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted January 12, 2003 07:33 AM |
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quote:
”Nice to know we're making up for the screw-up his father created 12 years ago then, pity we didn't then when the casualties would have been much less ”
Screw UP???? Man there is a ridiculous statement. Bush led a profound victory over Iraq as they imperialistically and brutally took over Kuwait…Bush liberates Kuwait and somehow that is a screw up???? Man some things are just plain absurd! First people complain that Bush W must follow the UN and not do it alone…then they critique the senior Bush for following the UN mandate as it related to Iraq and Kuwait. Which way is it? Double minded talk.
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“Däubler-Gmelin´s statement is reported by a politically right mag a few days before the elections. What exactly she had said is still unclear today”
Wrong it was reported by ALL the major news sources. She approved the report and only denied it after the backlash. The report was so profound and reliable that it severely strained the relations between Germany and America (in addition to your PM's other inflamatory and ignorant statments). Your PM even wrote Bush a letter about the whole issue. If it was false it would be easy enough to disprove…just get the people who were at the political rally to sign an affidavit that the statements alleged were incorrect. Since this easy way to diffuse the situation has not occurred to my knowledge…thus the report stands as fact.
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“He could be allowed to gang-rape them, too . Heck, what are we talking about? Are you telling me that executions are done for humanitarian purpose, to avoid gang-rapes? “
Of course not..what I was eloquently pointing out is that imprisonment is not reversible as you have alleged.
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“If such studies are made over a long enough time, they are quite reliable. It´s a fact that the death penalty does not deter crime. “
good thing you aren’t a scientist…you would be quickly fired for asserting that a correlation has anything to do with cause and effect! On hot days there is a correlation between drowning and eating ice cream….therefore by your logic ice cream causes drowning. Come on this is scientific method 101…you didn’t miss that class did ya
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“Molesting a child and taking Heroin is a crime. Being an alcoholic or being divorced is not. “
But wait I thought your premise was that what one does in their own privacy is their own concern? Which way is it? Please pick.
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“Uhm ... even the pope admitted (not a long time ago) that the world is a globe and not disk-shaped. But he still insists that masturbation leads to cancer. “
Ummm and what the heck does the Pope have to do with my world view? Could you please stick to the subject instead of bringing in every miscellaneous accusation you can create to debate? I grant you….you are the red herring KING!
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted January 12, 2003 02:38 PM |
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If that was his intention, he should never have indicated the possibility of invading Iraq to the people who eventually rebelled in the expectance that america would support them, which apparently they'd been promised. An unknown, but likely large number of iraquis died and the remainder were most likely left bitter and untrusting of the west thanks to promises made, that clearly none of the major powers had any intention of carrying out.......... I call that a screw up, allowing that to happen.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted January 14, 2003 05:38 AM |
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If Bush promised at that time that we were going to invade Iraq then that was a screw up. I am unaware of where he made that promise...maybe you could show me his statments indicating that promise?
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted January 14, 2003 10:54 AM |
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I wouldn't know, but the rebels seem to have been informed of this given their uprising, something which would suggest they expected support and invasion rather than abbandonment by all allies concerned. I would imagine someone in one of the intelligence agencies must have given them at least a reasonable hint of an invasion, otherwise their actions would be ludicrous.
And I guess my point was despite being against the UN, 12 years ago was the RIGHT time to strike to remove Hussain. Then we had the majority of his elite units surrounded in kuwait, the bulk of his regular army in kuwait destroyed or surrendered, most of his air force abbandonned in Iran, his air defences breached and his political power on the wane with rebellion in his own population.
Then we go and let his elite Republican Gaurd escape back to Iraq to crush the rebellion, who are both a millitary and political force backing him, his army and air defences have rebuilt, his political power is stronger than before and his air force has returned (though they'll no doubt run at the 1st sign of trouble again). No-one inside Iraq will be likely to be insane enough to rebel again given they have already been abbandoned to the tender mercies of Hussain once before.
So now we have to attack at entirely the WRONG time, with it all to do again, something anybody with half a brain could have told you at the end of the gulf war. If you leave a dictator in power, sooner or later he will return to his old ways and you'll be forced to act again. An argument for removing him yes, but not an argument for once again fighting yet another war, hoping that this time the west, lead (as we are so often told) by america will bother to do ALL of the job and not leave it for the next generation of poor squaddies to fight and die for the spurious aims of our politicians......
So yes, through lack of foresight, we screwed up.
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted January 14, 2003 06:09 PM |
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Now, as I've said before, I'm no huge Saddam Hussein fan, but something really bugs me about the concept of requiring that Iraq proove that it does not have nukes et. al.
In other words, Iraq needs to show tangible evidence regarding the lack of something's existence.
Personally, I'd have trouble prooving that I, personally, do not have nuclear weapons hidden somewhere in my apartment.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted January 14, 2003 07:16 PM |
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LOL! trust bort to reduce the thread to a more manageable level 
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted January 15, 2003 10:13 AM |
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Edited By: dArGOn on 15 Jan 2003
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“I wouldn't know, but the rebels seem to have been informed of this given their uprising, something which would suggest they expected support and invasion rather than abbandonment by all allies concerned. I would imagine someone in one of the intelligence agencies must have given them at least a reasonable hint of an invasion, otherwise their actions would be ludicrous.”
Maybe someone said something, maybe not. Issues like that can easily become a hurricane on their own. It is easy enough to imagine that people who hated Saddam saw that the USA was kicking his butt…then rumor started that USA was going to invade Iraq….very easy to imagine and not ludicrous at all.
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“And I guess my point was despite being against the UN, 12 years ago was the RIGHT time to strike to remove Hussain.”
I fully agree…but the globes worship of the UN makes that a big mistake for the US. WE are constantly maligned for being the world police…that would of sealed peoples opinoin….despite it being the right thing to do.
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“Iraq needs to show tangible evidence regarding the lack of something's existence.”
In theory I agree. But you are forgetting a few big things…before the weapons inspectors left in 98 there were numerous WMD present in Iraq that they saw with their own eyes. Now these WMD have suddenly disappeared and Iraq has not provided any information about how they vanished into thin air. Also there have been leading scientists who worked for Saddam who have since defected and have given testimony to Iraq’s building of WMD since the inspectors left…again how did they disappear? Add to that intelligence reports that Iraq was building WMD…so what black hole did they disappear in?
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted January 15, 2003 10:31 AM |
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Yes well, at the time I do recall at least the british being for removal also, although I'm not sure about france.
Thanks for agreeing by not disagreeing that we screwed up btw
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Vince
Hired Hero
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posted January 16, 2003 06:35 PM |
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Quote:
There is this country that has;
1. Used weapons of mass destruction on innocent civilians,
2. Attacked a weaker nation in a bid to grab land and
3. Is now a mortal threat to the survival of a sovereign nation.
What should be done about it?
Well this one is a tough one isn't it? You have your leftist views and your rightist views.
The lefts generally believe that:
-all life is precious so war should be avoided
-shouldn't attack a sovereign nation unless they attack you first
-believe in the democratic process(in other words, are the Iraqi people with or against their leader)
The rights generally believe that:
-if you don't take them out now, they'll be a bigger problem later
-should always be paranoid about losing your power and you should be proactive in protecting it and not reactive
-any leader of a sovereign nation that is labelled as a dictator should be taken out to liberate the people
I'm sure that I've missed other points but I think my points are clear.
I think the first thing we have to realize is that leaders(or the elite) want power and want to keep it. Its always been like this and always will be, its human nature. Both sides of the political spectrum try to accomplish this but they go about it in different ways.
The problems with the left's way is an opposing force can grow if left unchecked and then you will let yourself get into a war that would have ended swiftly before but now will endure a long time with many more lives at risk.
The problem with the right is their way is a bit more antagonistic which could spur terrorists act and hate crimes that 'may' not have happened otherwise.
I don't know which is the correct approach as the outcome is always uncertain.
The only opinion I want to add is whenever the right are in control, they pervey a feeling of paranoia which doesn't improve the quality of the average Joe's life. If war has to happen eventually in either scenario, I'd rather not live in paranoia up until the time it happens. So I say, let's try to solve this the diplomatic way and if we attack, we have to have really sound reasons. We have to think clearly about it, not jump to conclusions, assess the real risk and not the imagined and realize people will be paying with their lives in an attack.
We have advanced by leaps and bound technology wise in the last century but as 'people', we haven't advanced much more than cavemen. If we are truly so much more intelligent than other animals, we have to prove it someday to ourselves because our history shows otherwise.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 16, 2003 11:17 PM |
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Wrong it was reported by ALL the major news sources.
Nonsense, it was reported by all major news sources that the Schwäbisches Tagblatt, a small regional conservative newspaper, quoted Däubler-Gmelin the way it did.
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She approved the report and only denied it after the backlash.
Uhm, I have seen the live press conference with Däubler-Gmelin right after the article appeared. Not much has been clarified there, only that she had said something that could be interpreted as a comparison of Hitler and Bush. Noone will ever know what her exact words have been.
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The report was so profound and reliable that it severely strained the relations between Germany and America
Tzzz, the report was 2 days before the elections, and as both the Schwäbisches Tagblatt and your White House would rather have seen Stoiber become cancellor, they both made a big fuss about it.
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... in addition to your PM's other inflamatory and ignorant statments
What "other ignorant statements" would that be? His refusal to supporting a war in the middle east? What do you think you are, our sovereigns?
Besides, I remember quite a large number of ignorant statements from G.W.Bush. Like when he asked Brazil´s prime minister if there are blacks in his country lol. If he didn´t have such a rich daddy, that moron would probably be living under some bridge now.
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…just get the people who were at the political rally to sign an affidavit that the statements alleged were incorrect.
Uhm, great idea, hang out wanted-bills for people who have been at the event. How many pros and cons regarding the reported statement would be needed to verify it?
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Since this easy way to diffuse the situation has not occurred to my knowledge…thus the report stands as fact.
Well, I personally think that the report probably is mostly correct. But it´s funny that you treat such an inaccurate thing so much differently than the 2 interviews that I mentioned - which you dismissed as fakes right away! It´s always the same with you, you are not in the least interested in the truth. As long as you can somehow hold your view of Bush as a shining knight of justice and good, you´re happy:Quote:
Yes in fact he has a sterling reputation as a man of honor, dignity, truthfulness, compassion, etc. You see it over and over whatever the man does….even as portrayed by our liberal media here you can see Bush is a man of character.
lol
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Of course not..what I was eloquently pointing out is that imprisonment is not reversible as you have alleged.
You have completely ignored my argumentation why imprisonment is partially reversible. Besides, as far as I know, gang-rape isn´t part of the legal practice even in US prisons. And you can as well be gang-raped at home or in the park. Or at the police station, especially when you´re black and in the wrong district.
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Ummm and what the heck does the Pope have to do with my world view?
I think apart from you (and maybe your little dog Wolfman) everyone understood what I said. Maybe if you try just a tiny little bit harder ...
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted January 17, 2003 01:40 AM |
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I think apart from you (and maybe your little dog Wolfman) everyone understood what I said. Maybe if you try just a tiny little bit harder ...
What?
I understand what you say and I am not a little dog!!
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted January 17, 2003 06:33 AM |
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Vince nice post trying to look at both sides of the issue
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted January 17, 2003 07:12 AM |
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Edited By: dArGOn on 17 Jan 2003
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“What "other ignorant statements" would that be? His refusal to supporting a war in the middle east? What do you think you are, our sovereigns? “
Are you serious? You didn’t see all of your PM’s inflammatory statements about the Iraq situation specifically and America generally? You had to be hiding to miss them. In our elections are politicians have the decency not to bash other allies.
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”Besides, I remember quite a large number of ignorant statements from G.W.Bush. Like when he asked Brazil´s prime minister if there are blacks in his country lol. If he didn´t have such a rich daddy, that moron would probably be living under some bridge now.”
Oh I am sorry I didn’t see your degree from Harvard and Yale? Yeah you are able to call someone who graduated from those places a moron….makes a lot of sense? I think instead of listening to your subjective opinions that I will rather rely on the objective truth and standards of graduating from such difficult and prestigious institutions.
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“It´s always the same with you, you are not in the least interested in the truth. As long as you can somehow hold your view of Bush as a shining knight of justice and good, you´re happy”
It is great to know that you are all knowing…that you can even judge someone’s heart is quite astounding. Your parents must be proud of your god like abilities. Bush is a great leader, but if you have been listening you would know that I don’t think he is perfect.
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“You have completely ignored my argumentation why imprisonment is partially reversible.”
Logic seems to sometimes evade you sometimes. I will help your argument out here. I think what you are trying to say is that a conviction/judgment, not imprisonment, is partially reversable. Imprisonment entails time in prison. Time is never reversable once it has past. So no their imprisonment and time they spent in prison is completely irreversible. The length of time they spend in prison (aka conviction/ judgment) may be shorter once they are found not guilty, but by definition you can’t give back the time that was taken from them.
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“I think apart from you (and maybe your little dog Wolfman) everyone understood what I said. Maybe if you try just a tiny little bit harder ...”
One that is a very lame and unnecessary remark to make about someone. Two I am glad that you were able to take a poll of everyone to find out if they understood what you meant…quite super human abilities you have there. The fact remains that comparing my world view to the Pope’s view about the shape of the earth and masturbation makes absolutely no sense.
I was curious Lews....given that your PM vowed to never run again if unemployment was still at 4 million and then chose to run anyways....was that a lie or a private affair?
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 17, 2003 08:13 AM |
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It is great to know that you are all knowing
I do not need to be all-knowing to draw a conclusion, which is exactly what I did (I do not make such statements out of nothing).Quote:
Harvard and Yale
I have every right in the world to call someone a moron who asks the Prime Minister of Brazil if there are blacks living in Brazil.
Regarding imprisonment, yes, I apologize that English is not my 1st language. I´ll try it again:"Gefängnisstrafen sind partiell reversibel." Better?
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very lame and unnecessary remark
That is your opinion.
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Two I am glad that you were able to take a poll of everyone
If you read again, you´ll see that I said "I think". Do you always poll everyone before you think something? That might explain a number of your postings.
Besides, even Wolfman my analogy.
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given that your PM vowed to never run again if unemployment was still at 4 million
Lol, where did you get that porn? He certainly never vowed such a thing.
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted January 18, 2003 06:07 AM |
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"Gefängnisstrafen sind partiell reversibel."
I couldn’t of said it better myself
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“Lol, where did you get that porn? He certainly never vowed such a thing..”
Hmmmm……Washington Times http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20020902-125612-9305r.htm stated:
“Schroeder, a center-left Social Democrat, won the 1998 election on a pledge to slash unemployment to less than 3.5 million, and said he would not deserve re-election if he failed.”
And CNN http://europe.cnn.com/2002/BUSINESS/09/23/germany.marketreaction/ stated:
“Schroeder came to power on a pledge to reduce unemployment to 3.5 million people. But with unemployment now running just above four million, and a jobless rate at a high of 9.6 percent, Schroeder quickly recanted on that promise prior to this campaign.”
Hmmm so if you consider CNN (one of the most respectable liberal news sources) and Washington Times to be porn…well you need to get out A LOT more, or maybe I just have missed all the nude pictures they publicize
So any way…what is the shortest post ever?....I think a title like “name things Lews and Dargon agree upon” would have to take the cake for that one
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 18, 2003 08:42 AM |
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... and said he would not deserve re-election if he failed
Right, that´s what he said, and where is that a vow to never run again? The majority who voted for him knew that he had not reached his major goal, and still elected him to be cancellor again.
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CNN (one of the most respectable liberal news sources)
The old woman who was given a cake for cheering into the camera on 9/11 - I´m a bit doubtful about CNN´s respectability. But that´s a different subject.
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and Washington Times to be porn…
No, what I called porn is the way you twisted their words to turn a political misjudgement into a matter of personal integrity.
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So any way…what is the shortest post ever?....I think a title like “name things Lews and Dargon agree upon” would have to take the cake for that one
That´s the nicest thing you´ve ever said about me  !
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privatehudson
Responsible
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The Ultimate Badass
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posted January 19, 2003 12:25 AM |
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Whilst we're round and about the subject of the moral standing of leaders does anyone know what Dubya did in Nam? I have seen it reported that he dodged the war by serving in the Texan National Guard Air Force, but only in passing........
It would be interesting if it's true, or the entire story, a man leading a war who dodged one when it was his turn to fight for his country. Then again it depends on the validity of the report.
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted January 19, 2003 02:05 PM |
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Even if that is true, he helped out on the home front. He did better than Clinton, who ran away from the draft. Then he went to Great Britain and rallied protesters against the US. I don't know how such a loser became president of a country he "hated".
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted January 19, 2003 06:28 PM |
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Even if that is true, he helped out on the home front. He did better than Clinton, who ran away from the draft. Then he went to Great Britain and rallied protesters against the US. I don't know how such a loser became president of a country he "hated".
1. How is protesting a war evidence of "hating" a country?
2. He became president by winning both the popular vote and the antiquated electoral vote. That is something that GWB didn't do.
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privatehudson
Responsible
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The Ultimate Badass
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posted January 20, 2003 12:49 AM |
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I dunno, if it's true I find the notion that someone so Gung Ho in using his own soldiers to fight wars around the world, against axis' of evil would dodge fighting the axis of evil of that time by serving in a militia.......
But then again you could be damned sure I wouldn't have fought in Vietnam as it was a pointless war, but I just would have imagined someone as adamant about fighting evil and america's enemies would have jumped at the chance......
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