|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
posted April 13, 2003 02:47 AM |
|
|
Intruiging indeed.......
____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
|
|
bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
|
posted April 13, 2003 07:19 AM |
|
|
|
My best advice is to view things you find on the internet with the same skepticism you view things you see on CNN or BBC or Al-Jazeera.
|
|
bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
|
|
posted April 13, 2003 07:22 AM |
|
|
|
My best advice is to view things you find on the internet with the same skepticism you view things you see on CNN or BBC or Al-Jazeera.
|
|
Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
|
|
posted April 13, 2003 07:59 AM |
|
|
Wolfman, dArGOn, stand back. Prepare to be surprised as I take this one on.
Hello Gothmog! Welcome friend!
I think a lot of many of your posts that I've seen. But I must take issue with this photograph and what it intends to relay.
You know, I've been around for long enough and have been in the thick of moments enough times and have even had my owm goddam bullets singing over my head once or twice. I know enough to know there are fanatics on both sides who will take any kind of information they can, and twist it around to make it suit their needs and support their points. And right now I am wondering where you got this picture and what their agenda is.
Yes, as I watched this event unfold for several hours, live on television, it reminded me -- alone with no help or interpretation by others whatsoever -- of the Berlin wall coming down. Just as I do when my conservative associates tend to accuse me of being gullible to a "party line" because of certain of my genuinely-held beliefs that are my own, I tend to resent the suggestion that the comparison to the Berlin wall here is some sort of manipulation.
During the whole beginning of the event -- for at least an hour of what I saw - there were nothing but Iraquis standing at the base of that statute swearing, hitting it with shoes, and beating the base with every manner of tool they could get their hands on.
There were people milling around all over that square that afternoon. There did not appear to be any controls on the traffic in and out of the square and I am baffled where this thusfar unsupported assertion came from. At one point I would estimate that there were as many as 500 people in that square. That particular photograph is misleadingly thin on crowd representation. What about the hundreds that followed the statue's head around for ever beating on it with their shoes???
And about the tanks. Common. They JUST MARCHED ON BAGHDAD. OF COURSE there were tanks sitting around. And that's exactly what I watched them do, for hours, was just sit around. One guy was blowing bubbles with his bubble gum.
That was exactly what was so weird about it; ironically, there were all these tanks sitting around, and that was what it took before these people could for once just run around in the square and just yell bloody murder at that ******* ******** **** and pretty much do whatever they wanted to do. Why are liberals (presumably of whom I am one) so afraid to acknowledge this clear, undeniable event???
The solders in the tanks were repeatedly approached by Iraquis milling around, coming and going, conversing with the soldiers in what was largely clearly a very friendly manner. The tanks sat at a distance as the crowd retrieved a rope, then several Iraqui citizens climbed up onto the statue's podium using one another's shoulders and a ladder, and tried to arrange a rope around its neck to pull down the statue.
It turned out the rope was too short to get a hold of down on the ground. I (accused peacenik that I am) sat there and watched and wondered how long before the soldiers offered to help them with some obviously needed heavy equipment; then thought, no, this is their moment.
It is my understanding that the crowd asked for their help; the troops did not offer it or interfere until that time.
Yes, Gothmog. To me, it felt very, very much like the Berlin wall. It was clearly a spontaneous event.
Common. Do you really think all the other dances in the streets were orchestrated?? How about the other thousands of citizens in every other town we've seen ad nauseum on the news, thumbs-upping the troops, thanking them, talking to them, even mobbing them in a friendly manner at threat of gunpoint???
Finally, I will ask you, Gothmog, if you really believe this event was orchestrated, DO YOU REALLY THINK THEY WOULD HAVE ALLOWED THAT BONER WHEN THE MARINE SPONTANEOUSLY PUT THE AMERICAN FLAG OVER THE STATUE'S HEAD, which action has become such a whipping boy pariah for the Middle Eastern countries so appalled at Iraq's outpouring of welcome??? If you watch that whole series of events carefully, you will see the soldier putting the American flag over the statue's head, then one or two Iraqui's yelling up to him and gesturing to him, and then finally the soldier's attention turns to them, they are gesturing to one another (obviously having a language barrier problem). Then the Iraqui man beneath the soldier HANDS HIM AN IRAQUI FLAG and the solder does this Eureka kind of gesture toward the flags -- finally gets it -- then he takes the American flag off the statue and puts the Iraqui flag up.
SO THAT WAS ALL ORCHESTRATED??? Common.
Sorry guys. I call them as I see them. And this, clear as a bell, is how I see this one. I have invested many years of my life in activist pursuits. I have put a lot on the line on more than one occasion. I must say that when I see something as slanted as the message in this picture I feel it tends to de-legitimize every effort I have made in the pursuit of the truth.
Gothmog, we cannot harp at conservative propaganda and then turn around and generate our own if anybody is to take us seriously. For Pity's sake, have just a LITTLE faith in humanity, and stop trying to CONVINCE everybody that they ALL HATE ALL OF US. THINK about what you are trying to accomplish here, and ask youself why you are trying to accomplish it.
Thanks in advance, Gothmog, for your patience with my diatribe. I do not mean to make it sound like you do not believe in what you are doing. We all do our best and that's all I'm trying to do here too.
____________
I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
|
|
SirDunco
Responsible
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted April 13, 2003 08:33 AM |
|
|
chemical weapons please...right. I certainly don't belive that story. If the Iraqi regime had chemical weapons they would have gotten rid of them or hid them beacouse they knew that they stood no chance...
...i saw on the news what the robers did to the Iraqi national Museum...dissgraceful...thousand year old artifacts and not a soldier protecting them? I was very surprised to see not even a guy in a uniform outside the musuem...
...this thing with the statue fallling i supose was not orchestrated...a spontaneus event. The samll(very small)crowd gathered adn "did their thing" with the soldiers only watching...yet i don't know how you can compare this with the berlin wall(too different things)...yet it is interesting that the US want's itself to play the major role in restoring Iraq[Iraq the 52. State?(Puerto Rico is probably going to be the 51.)] oh and i saw the guy who they wanted to rule the country...some old retired american general...now if he wouldn't be a pupet then...
____________
|
|
Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
|
|
posted April 13, 2003 08:50 AM |
|
|
Hey Sir Dunco! How goes it?
The reason it reminded me of the wall coming down was the human spontenaety, the symbolic feeling to the whole thing. When people crawl up onto symbols of oppression and break them down with hammers and the like. The comparison for me was very much an emotional one. The two events inspired the same feelings in me, as a person invested in humanity and in overcoming oppression and all...
But all this is not to say there were not any differences between the events. Each one is unique in its own right too.
____________
I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
|
|
Gothmog
Adventuring Hero
Honorable
|
|
posted April 13, 2003 04:56 PM |
|
|
Dear Peacemaker:
Thanks for the reply. And allow me to clarify, I am not trying to achieve anything, I am just trying to view things from a different perspective. And if we combine the "truth" that I believe, and the "truth" that you believe, we might come closer to the real truth.
Call me naive, but once, at least once, I whole-heartedly believed that USA was a country that truly represented the meaning of freedom and democracy. But after seeing how president Bush acting "my way or wrong way", after seeing how American-controlled media successfully revealing the "better part of the truth" (I am not saying that Al-Jazeera or the like are any better). I begin to believe, USA is NOT any better, if not worse, than the rest of the world.
As far as those Iraqis who kept hitting Sadam's poster with their shoes, with all due respect, the same population might be looting Bagdad at this very moment. I'll give them the same credits as to those THOUSANDS of Europeans who greeted Hitler who just "liberated" their countries. If you watch some of the documentaries, you would realize
THAT WAS NOT ORCHESTRATED EITHER.
____________
He who attacks seldom defends.
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted April 13, 2003 05:09 PM |
|
|
The reference to europe is partially relevant. Most french and other communities once liberated immediatley went off to "liberate" some property from the collaberators, murder/humiliate french women who had had sexual relations with germans and generally go on a chaotic rampage of revenge against the anything german or associated with german.
A good example being this story from a book about british soliders experiences in WWII.
A british recon unit was driving through eastern france in the period immediately after the breakout of normandy when it came across a french town, garrisoned by a weak german unit of 2nd line troops. The germans surrendered without a fight, but the commander of the Recon unit (a scotish gentleman with a THICK scotish accent) knew he had orders to continue onto another town by the end of the day. He searched out the leader of the reisistance and asked him to "hang onto the prisoners for him" as he would return the next day. The recon unit then left.
Come morning they return to the town to find everyone concentrated around the town square. Driving into the square they found the entire german garrison hanging from trees/lamposts etc. The commander again searched out the reistance leader and demanded to know why he had hung a few dozen germans.......
The frenchman said "You said hang them for me!"
The recon commander never did find out whether the frenchman misunderstood him, or whether he just hung them out of revenge anyway.
Looting and damaging property is most definately NOT a good thing. There may come a point when spontaneous reaction to the fall of Hussain will boil over into revenge killings and damaging of property of those suspected of supporting him, and inevitably innocents will die in this. I hope the allies can control the situation peacefully, but somehow I'm doubtful that they can stop all such events.
____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
|
|
Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
|
|
posted April 13, 2003 07:20 PM |
|
|
Good morning guys!
Yes Gothmog, they probably are the same people out in the streets. Reason I too believe this is likely is because, at least at first, it was government buildings primarily being looted(another symbol similar to hammering on statues and the like). However, the crowd continues to grow as do the targets of looting. As usual, people see others doing it, and think, well why not if everyone else is???
Looting when things like this happen seems to be more a product of human nature than anything, since it appears to be a cross-cultural pheonemonon. (Interesting story PH!!)
I also feel the same way you do about how poorly President Bush has handled this, as I have also wailed myself many times in this thread. You're preaching to the choir on that one my friend. (Example at the top of the list: "Axis of Evil": Open mouth, insert foot).
And one again, thank you for your tolerance of my somewhat emotional response last night.
____________
I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
|
|
Damacon_Ace
Famous Hero
Also known as Nobris Agni
|
|
posted April 14, 2003 01:52 AM |
|
|
Was this war justified?
...after 3 cruising weeks for the American Coalition forces, it seems that Iraq has fallen into even more chaos. Looters, thieves and armed militia roam the streets, stealing from houses, shops, banks and even art museums to collect 'valuables' while the Coalition troops stand helpless against this chaos due to the majority of soldiers fighting against Saddam. Baghdad and Basra are two such cities that have been trashed by looters, and more are bound to fall victim to such an assault.
The question remains, though: Will the Coalition find Saddam and bring him to justice and restore a new order in Iraq or will this war being more chaos, misery and trouble to the world?
____________
No one knows my true nature here...
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted April 14, 2003 02:03 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Yes Gothmog, they probably are the same people out in the streets. Reason I too believe this is likely is because, at least at first, it was government buildings primarily being looted(another symbol similar to hammering on statues and the like). However, the crowd continues to grow as do the targets of looting. As usual, people see others doing it, and think, well why not if everyone else is???
I would though prefer the american and british forces in the areas to intervene more in such events. It is an inevitable process from the destruction of statues, to the revenge attacks and terror that follows such a downfall. Often this happens when there is no-one around to stop it. This time the british and americans ARE there to stop the events from escalating or even begining in the first place.
Whether the items are belonging to the ex-rulers of Iraq or not, it is not the duty of the British and Americans to let anarchy reign in the cities they control, simply because at this time it's directed away from them. Mr Hoon's comments (quoted earlier in the thread by Dargon) are simplistic and niave. Surely it would be better to ensure stability and then allow the new regime to distribute wealth properly than on a violent system prone to flare up?
We are supposed to be there to bring peace and stability, not looting and partial anarchy. I suspect the allied reaction has less to do with liking the events and more to do with a lack of will to impose order through the military and therefore become less popular.
____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
|
|
Damacon_Ace
Famous Hero
Also known as Nobris Agni
|
|
posted April 14, 2003 02:11 AM |
|
|
Very true...Private Hudson
The anarchy caused in Iraq now is a backfired recipe from the American Coalition invasion of the country.
____________
No one knows my true nature here...
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted April 14, 2003 02:19 AM |
|
|
To be fair, it was always going to happen in the wake of sadam's fall, it's not something brought on by specific hatred to the allies, any nation that brought down Sadam would have triggered such an outpouring of looting.
What the allies are partially responsible for though is order in those areas they now control. Having taken it upon themselves to determine Iraq's future, it is our responsibility to ensure the safety of ALL it's people and that proper justice is done. NOT mob justice.
____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
|
|
Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
|
|
posted April 14, 2003 07:00 AM |
|
|
Yes, PH, one is left to wonder and speculate why the troops did not spring into action and intervene in the chaos sooner, and your speculation of reluctance to take unpopular actions makes the most sense to me.
What a shame it is happening, either way though. Seems like I've seen many instances on the news of Iraquis stepping up and asking for some sort of intervention from the most likely candidate to help restore order -- the troops. (Why do I wince at this thought? I'm not even sure myself... Perhaps, PH, it is the same reason you suggested -- that such intervention might enhance the imperialist perception of our presence, and thus our unpopularity in the region...)
Anyway. what a shame that the citizenry at large will end up paying for it because they are enhancing the rebuilding requirements.
Did they not anticipate something like this would happen I wonder?
____________
I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
|
|
TonyJT2471
Bad-mannered
Adventuring Hero
|
posted April 14, 2003 07:35 AM |
|
|
Looting vs. Saddam
OK folks, lets get down to the real question....what's worse....
A few days of Iraqi's looting their own country (mostly government buildings full of stuff Saddam and his regime spent the people's money on for themselves)
-OR-
decades of genocide, constant warring, unbridalled cruelty to dissadents of the regime and no freedom?
The troops are not their to police the Iraqi's, but like Bush said, "to liberate them."
With liberty and freedom come responsibility, a responsibility to act in accordance to law and civility, something the people of Iraq have not yet tasted....give those poor folks at least a few days before we accuse them of failing...they are intelligent, well-educated people, who just need a little help getting on their feet. Let's help them instead of bash them (and the coalition troops).
After all Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither will the new democratic Iraq.
P.S. Yes, a "puppet regime" or whatever you want to call it will be in control of Iraq for awhile (we all knew this from the begining, dont kid yourself and act suprised) to set up the democracy. It's necessary, whatever you think of the U.S. and U.K. in order to set up a real representative government, so another Saddam doesn't swoop in and take control....right?
____________
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted April 14, 2003 01:53 PM |
|
|
I'm not saying it's as bad as sadam's regime, but anarchy and chaos are NOT the best way to rebuild Iraq. The allies have the ability to stop this chaos, and it has taken them time to even try to do so, time in which innocents may have paid the price for this delay. I have also not accused the iraquis of failing, it's just a natural enough reaction by a people so long supressed. The point is it is at time such as these that steady heads should enforce proper order in the cities and towns.
Quote:
in order to set up a real representative government, so another Saddam doesn't swoop in and take control....right?
That all depends on how much influence the allies have on vetoing new leaders.........
____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
|
|
TonyJT2471
Bad-mannered
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted April 14, 2003 02:16 PM |
|
|
thank you privatehudson
You have just repeated Donald Rumsfeld.
Why is it liberals understand yet still argue the point which is moot when you agree with what has already been said......LOL :-)
C'mon, 3 days now at most of this after whats been going on for decades, give us a break. You know just as well as anyone that order will be restored and you can't try and pretend that the coalition forces are the stormtroopers that there to police a new facist Iraq. 3 days!!!!
If it were say 3 months or even 2 weeks of this going on, then yes, I would understand your argument. But these troops are NOT policemen. They may have to help out in the short run, but then if they were already, arent you the same guys who would be screaming that they are there to conquer and control?
Sometimes things have to get worse before they can get better, if only so people can see and understand why.
____________
|
|
TonyJT2471
Bad-mannered
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted April 14, 2003 02:25 PM |
|
|
oh yeah, I almost forgot
Havent enough of these "innocents" already payed with their lives while Saddam was in power. Now some government buildings and some private homes of the regime's sympathisers are raided and you equate this as being on the same level or worse???????
WHAT???? LOL, I don't get it, I guess you are just saying this to show how you feel about America.
How many millions of American lives have been spent on foriegn soil for their freedom?
____________
|
|
Gothmog
Adventuring Hero
Honorable
|
|
posted April 14, 2003 03:26 PM |
|
|
|
Ok, the coalition force took Sadam's hometown. It's offically over, I guess, at least the war stage.
|
|
Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
|
|
posted April 14, 2003 04:48 PM |
|
|
Hello Tony...
Lets See.... Private Hudsun = Donald Rumsfeld....
<thinks>
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAA!!!!! HAAAAAAAAA
One would think it was you who were trying to start an argument where there wasn't one.
And shame on all of us for being concerned for our brothers and sisters in Iraq because of the looting over there.... Just shame on us...
____________
I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
|
| |
|
|
This Popular Thread is pages long: 
