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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 21, 2002 05:21 AM |
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Quote:
Lews...first nice to see you...second...please please please look into things before making wild accusations...I live in America...I saw all the presidential adverstising..and not ONCE was Texas' rate of captital punishment ever mentioned during Bush's ads. Also a little political education might go a long way...the govenor in a state DOES NOT convict or sentance people to death...that is the courts job.
Hello Dargon,
nice to see you, too. IMO your argumentation has several flaws:
1. Bush´s body count in presidential advertising spots - that´s a funny satirical idea. But seriously, I´ve read and heard from several sources that the frequency of executions in Texas always dramatically increased, whenever elections came near. With an uprising effect on Bush´s popularity. Can anyone confirm this or the opposite?
2. As the gouvernor of a state, Bush did have an influence on the law, and he DID support execution laws that include mentally ill and underaged people, and foreigners. He has always been a strict supporter of the excessive handling of the death penalty in Texas.
3. The plea for clemency goes directly to the gouvernor, so whenever this was denied, Bush was responsible for the death of that person. The people who are sentenced to death are mainly those who do not have the money for a good defense. There were cases where the lawyers slept in court, during the trials. I cannot believe that a person with your intellects seriously thinks that all the 153 people who were sentenced to death under Bush´s administration were guilty.
4. You may still remember Carla Tucker:
Republican presidential candidate George W. Bush is portrayed in his Talk Magazine interview as ridiculing pickax killer Karla Faye Tucker of Houston for an interview she did with CNN broadcaster Larry King shortly before she was executed last year.
"`Please,' Bush whimpers, his lips pursed in mock desperation, `don't kill me.'"
In fact, during that Larry King-Faye Tucker exchange, Tucker NEVER asked to be spared.
If I were you, I´d rather have a president who is married for the fourth time.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 21, 2002 05:28 AM |
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted December 21, 2002 07:50 AM |
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Lews has awaken;) Where were ya?
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”1. Bush´s body count in presidential advertising spots “
Completely false…show me in a reputable news source (BBC, AP, Reuters, etc.). I saw all the ads…never once had a “body count”.
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2. “As the gouvernor of a state, Bush did have an influence on the law,”
Yes he did have an influence in the law…but governors do not write law…the legislation does.
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“He has always been a strict supporter of the excessive handling of the death penalty in Texas. “
Yes he is an advocate of the death penalty as the majority of Americans are…even liberal president Clinton advocated the death penalty.
I see the flaws of the death penalty, but those nations that don’t allow the death penalty are truly barbaric in my opinion….those nations throw justice to the dogs and grant mercy to the murderous criminal….seems quite backward to me…you should uphold justice (eye for an eye is the definition of justice particularly in capital cases) and not grant mercy to the perpetrator who raped then sodomized then tortured a victim. What a perversion of mercy.
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“3. The people who are sentenced to death are mainly those who do not have the money for a good defense.”
Hmm guess you haven’t heard about how hard it is to get a conviction in the USA…you need ALL 12 jurors to agree that the person committed the crime, plus you have to convince the judge (an expert in the law) that the person committed the crime. Then you get the chance to have it overturned by a higher court of multiple judges…then lastly you get the chance to have it overturned by the governor. If our system is guilty of anything it is of protecting the guilty as all the cards are stacked in the defendant’s corner.
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“There were cases where the lawyers slept in court, during the trials.”
That is laughable….please provide references for wild statements like that…if that was true it would be cause for an immediate mis-trial. It is kind of funny what mythological distortions the apparent European press can make up….lol. Thank God that Europe has the BBC to present an objective and true account of what happens in the world.
I think I understand that world view a little better since it seems people turn to unreputable mags albeit often unheard of mags for their information. If I read all the junk from those trash mags I would have the same colored if not fantastical world view.
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“Republican presidential candidate George W. Bush is portrayed in his Talk Magazine interview as ridiculing pickax killer Karla Faye Tucker of Houston”
Is Talk magazine a branch of Enquiror magazine…cause enquiring minds want to know Never heard of Talk magazine…is it one of those mags you get free by subscribing to the ad in the back of some porn magazine?
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 21, 2002 10:18 AM |
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Oh, I forgot, the only credible sources are those that support Dargon´s world view. Well, no use talking to a fanatic, I suppose.
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted December 21, 2002 12:40 PM |
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2. As the gouvernor of a state, Bush did have an influence on the law, and he DID support execution laws that include mentally ill and underaged people, and foreigners. He has always been a strict supporter of the excessive handling of the death penalty in Texas.
A saying comes to mind when I hear that, "Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time!"
The sex offenders should be shot on sight if they are convicted, " ...what say you? In the matter of rape, we find the defendant, guilty." Then the judge pulls out a gun and shoots him (90% of all sex offenders are male), instead of a hangin' judge from the 1800's it would be a shootin' judge.
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3. The plea for clemency goes directly to the gouvernor, so whenever this was denied, Bush was responsible for the death of that person.
No, the person who comited the crime is responsible. If they didn't comit the crimew then they would not die. Pretty simple.
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Mad_Unicorn
Famous Hero
I am a mean person shame on me
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posted December 21, 2002 01:17 PM |
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OUCH
This is what I get for "leaving" the computer scene for 2 months.....
All this debate is rather moot(however its very entertaining)
Lets get back to basics
1. Iraq deems America "evil"
2. America deems Iraq "evil"
3. Bush thinks he is in the "right"
4. Saddam thinks he is in the "right"
(comical)5. Only in America could we have a 100 year old senator..... no wonder some laws get passed.
6. War solves every major aggitation
7. War is inevitable when a "spark" occurs
Hopefully no "real" spark occurs
My personal reaction is just attack em get it over with and stop draining resources christ.
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted December 22, 2002 08:32 AM |
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"Oh, I forgot, the only credible sources are those that support Dargon´s world view."
Get real brother....yeah the AP, Reuters, BBC are all known as right wing rags.
You seem to want to find your news sources from some 40 year old balding guy who is living in his mother's basement...hasn't seen the light of day in 6 weeks...showers...well one knows when he last showered...as he is hammering away with his pizza stained fingers his latest addition of the "Atheist Newsletter"...to which you correspondingly quote to back up your world view despite the fact that no one else has even heard of what the basement madman is conjuring up in his feeble and twisted little mind.
That is like me quoting things from some backwoods hick militia guy and expecting you to respect it as God's truth.
If you want to debate fine...but lets use legitimate sources...otherwise it all degrades into some sort of god awful scene from the book 1984 where reality is defined as it whatever suits their purpose.
Oh BTW I just read in “Militia News and Raccoon” magazine that Chancellor Schroeder stated that all Muslims are spawns of Satan and must have their testicles removed with a dull blade. Must be true…I found it on the internet and everything
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted December 22, 2002 03:17 PM |
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I see no-one bothers to defend america not being part of the war crimes tribunual thing? What a suprise................
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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CraigHack
Known Hero
Have fantasies, will travel...
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posted December 22, 2002 05:02 PM |
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Back to "Attack Iraq" for a moment....
Colin Powell says that "Iraq has just missed the last exit on the highway to war."
The weather should be about right in the middle of January.
Bets anyone?
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The Gods have brought us together... I can't imagine why.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 22, 2002 07:32 PM |
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If you want to debate fine...but lets use legitimate sources...otherwise it all degrades into some sort of god awful scene from the book 1984 where reality is defined as it whatever suits their purpose.
Dargon, maybe you haven´t noticed, but this is exactly the way you handle informations. "An excellent thinker" is someone who shares Dargon´s world view and expresses himself in a witty way. "Lies", "porn", "junk", "trash", that´s the way Dargon labels what doesn´t correlate with Dargon´s world.
Examples:
Global warming:
According to Dargon, it´s all a big conspiracy made up by scientists who research the subject, because they get paid for it, knowing very well that it´s all nonsense.
After Bort, who is a scientist, gave quite a number of facts, and stated that the occurance of global warming is all but certain, Dargon found his loophole: "All but certain is not certain, science can be wrong, it fits into my worldview that science is wrong in this case, so I expect it to be wrong here. Glad we finally agree, Bort."
Victims of the war in Afghanistan:
According to Dargon it´s a fairy tale that the number of deaths there is more than twice the victims of 9/11. "Reputable sources" (Dargon) give much smaller numbers. I wonder what he says about the mass grave that I refered to earlier. Which obviously hasn´t been counted by those "reputable sources", because standing alone it contains 3 times the corpses of what his "reputable sources" estimated. I suppose he will say that they died a natural death.
Bush senior´s interview where he discriminated atheists as second-class Americans:
All made up by the press (when I showed Dargon time and date and name of the interviewer, he lost interest in the subject).
Lawyers sleeping in courts:
Here´s the complete Dargon quote:Quote:
That is laughable….please provide references for wild statements like that…if that was true it would be cause for an immediate mis-trial. It is kind of funny what mythological distortions the apparent European press can make up….lol. Thank God that Europe has the BBC to present an objective and true account of what happens in the world.
And here´s the reference:
http://hometown.aol.com/gunthrmomo/deathpenalty.html
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/06/05/1022982701881.html
Put "lawyer slept in court" into google to find more about it. The man in this example spent 11 years in the death row, before his case was reviewed. Is that what you call an "immediate mis-trial", Dargon? How would you like to be wrongly accused of murder, Dargon, if you lived in Texas and had no money?
George W. Bush making fun of Karla Tucker´s execution in the above-mentioned interview:
Made up by the press again, "hahaha Talk Magazine, if a magazine has that title of course it´s all lies."
Back then, Bush was only a gouvernor, and I still remember how this interview went through the European media and left quite an impression about what kind of person the republican presidential candidate is.
I´m sure that I could find many more of those if I had the nerve to read again through the "Attack Iraq" and "Osama Bin Laden" threads. Dargon, don´t you see a contradiction in the selective ultra-ultra-ultra-scepticism that you show whenever anything is brought up that doesn´t suit you, and the willingness to believe in the integrity of whatever your precious republican party does or a 2000+ year guru book says? What´s the point of arguing with a person that is so extremely biased?
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted December 22, 2002 08:37 PM |
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WOW Lews you do better than me, you research things
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted December 22, 2002 10:22 PM |
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Quote:
I see no-one bothers to defend america not being part of the war crimes tribunual thing? What a suprise................
What's to defend? It was the wrong decision.
I know you'd like to think of all of us as blindly jingoistic just because some people support decisions that you don't like, but people who disagree with you can be capable of rational thought.
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted December 22, 2002 10:39 PM |
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I am capable of rational thought and I disagree with him all the time.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted December 23, 2002 12:24 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I see no-one bothers to defend america not being part of the war crimes tribunual thing? What a suprise................
What's to defend? It was the wrong decision.
I know you'd like to think of all of us as blindly jingoistic just because some people support decisions that you don't like, but people who disagree with you can be capable of rational thought.
That was kinda more directed at our own Bush fan rather than you, Dargon seems to support pretty much everything he does, does he support or can he find a rational explanation for this? And I won't even begin to address the rest of the BS you put after that  I never said you weren't capable of it, just were is the "rational thought" here if there is one.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted December 25, 2002 08:39 AM |
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“Dargon found his loophole: "All but certain is not certain, science can be wrong, it fits into my worldview that science is wrong in this case, so I expect it to be wrong here. Glad we finally agree, Bort."”
First if you are going to quote me…please use my ACTUAL words. Second if you will review the debate….I offered a multitude of scientific reasons why global warming is not a catastrophic problem. Third I offered an array of scientists who disagree with the current global warming theory (not to mention the largest petition by far created by 17,000 scientists about global warming which indicated their affirmation that it is NOT a problem). I provided endless references and quotes from experts in the field. Even my latest post on the subject indicated that on in the last two months MSNBC (AKA reputable news source) found that “The ozone hole over Antarctica is markedly smaller this year than in the last few years”.
I could go on…but it would be a repeat of all that I extensively documented earlier. So in conclusion quote me and read my posts fairly. And yes in the end we finally did agree…we both seemed to agree that global warming is a theory to which neither of us can absolutely prove or disprove as the weight of proof is far from conclusive.
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“Victims of the war in Afghanistan:”
Again I saw no reputable resource for those kind of numbers.
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“Bush senior´s interview where he discriminated atheists as second-class Americans:”
Again no reputable resource. What is so difficult for you to understand about this Lews???? If it happened show it to me in a serious news organization then I would give it credence. You wouldn’t accept me quoting from “rednecks report and road kill” so why would you expect different from me?
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“The man in this example spent 11 years in the death row, before his case was reviewed. Is that what you call an "immediate mis-trial", Dargon?”
First…it is cause for an immediate mis-trial…I wasn’t there and neither were you so the reasons are past us.
I am again glad that you provided a resource that practically nobody has heard of…but I will have to give you credit that this latest resource at least looks more reputable than the resources that you have provided before…it actually looks like it is newsworthy material.
Yep you got it…you found a case where a lawyer was “allegedly sleeping”…and according to the report that you provided…what happened….like I said…the conviction was overturned and he will be retried.....” A federal judge in Texas later ruled that Mr. Burdine did not receive adequate defense” (oh my gosh a judge in Texas did this…I guess that goes against all your stereotypes about Texas). We don’t tolerate that crap here….if he was sleeping the case should be retried…it is inexcusable. Was it timely….nope not at all. Can you please inform me where to find the perfect criminal justice system? I don’t think you can.
Also funny is that you were trying to slam on Bush and his reign in Texas…this man by your own news source was convicted in 1984…long before Bush was governor (but I guess you can’t bother yourself with those little facts when you are trying to slam Bush).
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“through the "Attack Iraq" and "Osama Bin Laden" threads.”
Whenever I argued about Iraq regime change or OBL I have used mainstream and reputable news sources…you might try it once in a while.
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“What´s the point of arguing with a person that is so extremely biased?”
hmm interesting…I was thinking the same about you…guess we do agree on something.
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“Dargon seems to support pretty much everything he does”
See PH that leads me to think you don’t actually read what I write. There are numerous things I think Bush has done wrong (mostly domestically). I criticize him every time I see him do something stupid. It just so happens I think on the war on terrorism and the regime change in Iraq he has played his hand better than any one could of wanted or expected. He is a great politician and better yet a good man. Domestically he is sometimes too liberal for me…but hey no one is perfect.
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“does he support or can he find a rational explanation for this?”
I form most of my opinions after reading and engaging in research….I have not read much material on reasons for or against war crimes tribunal …so for me to state a strong opinion about something I know virtually nothing about would be ignorant.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 25, 2002 11:45 AM |
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Quote:
First if you are going to quote me…please use my ACTUAL words.
Okay, here they are:
Bort: I do think there is pretty indisputable evidence. I'm not going to say indisuptable, because if you put three scientists in a room they'll come up with four opinions.
...
Is global warming occuring and are humans at least partially responsible? Yes.
Dargon: Funny but true I had a feeling you weren’t a die hard and could see that there are a lot of ifs and buts.
Bort probably would have given you the same answer if you had asked him about the theory of gravitation. You do exactly what I described above, you pick out what suits your wishes and your world view.
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And yes in the end we finally did agree…
He says there´s pretty much evidence, you say it´s all lies and hysteria and conspiracy ... yes, it´s hard to imagine a closer unison than between you two.
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“Victims of the war in Afghanistan:”
Again I saw no reputable resource for those kind of numbers.
Spiegel, Süddeutsche, Netzeitung, ARD, ..., even the conservative "Die Welt" reports that 3000 of the 8000 captured Taliban have vanished there in the Afghan desert. If I remember well, your "reputable sorces" assessed an overall number of around 1000 deaths.
About your insistence to dismiss interviews just because you do not consider their sources to be "reputable" (think of the anti-islamic agitation that CNN started on 9/11, I wonder what the measure for your "reputability is):
Tell me Dargon, how do you think did those interview texts (Bush junior on C.F.Tucker and Bush senior on atheism) come into being?
In Germany, a newspaper gets into trouble if it prints fake interviews. On the contrary, it´s common practice that the person who is interviewed puts his signature under it, before it is printed by the press.
Again you´re doing a remarkable show of shutting of eyes and ears against everything that doesn´t suit you.
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... We don’t tolerate that crap here….if he was sleeping the case should be retried…it is inexcusable. Was it timely….nope not at all. Can you please inform me where to find the perfect criminal justice system? I don’t think you can.
First of all, thank you for indirectly admitting that the amusement on this matter that you showed in the posting I refered to was pure idiocy.
Second, you´re missing the point. Of course a perfect criminal justice system is not possible, and that is what makes the excessive execution practice in Texas so irresponsible. An execution is not reversible. And the quality of your court defense largely depends on the money in your pockets.
And it doesn´t matter a bit that we are talking about a case from 1984. Fact is that Bush wasn´t only a supporter of this practice, he´s also responsible for a further increase of the killing.
Anyway, only reason why I brought up this subject is your ridiculous show of indignation about Schröder´s 4th wife.
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CraigHack
Known Hero
Have fantasies, will travel...
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posted December 25, 2002 06:33 PM |
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"He is a great politician and better yet a good man. Domestically he is sometimes too liberal for me…but hey no one is perfect."
Uhhhh.... What!?
I thought there were only 3 Ultra Right wing conservative christians who thought he was too liberal!?! Too liberal? What a concept
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The Gods have brought us together... I can't imagine why.
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soccerfeva
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
banned
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posted December 30, 2002 10:20 AM |
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Attack 3DO ?
Are you guys crazy?
We should all shut up and attack 3DO instead.
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted December 31, 2002 02:43 AM |
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“ You do exactly what I described above, you pick out what suits your wishes and your world view.”
In America we have a little saying “if that isn’t the pot calling the kettle black”
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“He says there´s pretty much evidence, you say it´s all lies and hysteria and conspiracy”
You might want to check out a book by two renowned Climatologists “The satanic gases”….but some people will probably ignore it’s scientific findings and hard facts because it doesn’t suit their world view.
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“Tell me Dargon, how do you think did those interview texts (Bush junior on C.F.Tucker and Bush senior on atheism) come into being?”
The same way some “reporters” record their latest interview with Elvis Presley.
Certain organizations have an axe to grind whether they be liberal or conservative…I examine things critically and do not believe everything I read particularly on the internet…it must be verified and researched. See there are plenty of things that are promoted as fact by some conservatives, but I don’t buy everything hook, line and sinker. Even though I may share the same political perspective as some pundits…I don’t give everything credence just because it suits my persepective. On the other hand it seems most things you read from ultra liberal internet rags you believe is the gospel.
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”In Germany, a newspaper gets into trouble if it prints fake interviews. On the contrary, it´s common practice that the person who is interviewed puts his signature under it, before it is printed by the press. “
That seems like a wise practice…so were did either of the Bushes sign off on those fantasy interviews?
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”Again you´re doing a remarkable show of shutting of eyes and ears against everything that doesn´t suit you.”
I think what you mean is that I am not gullible and naive to think that “talk magazine” and the “atheist newsletter” are hardcore, balanced, and objective news media.
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First of all, thank you for indirectly admitting that the amusement on this matter that you showed in the posting I refered to was pure idiocy. “
Umm I do think any implication that this goes on with any sort of frequency is idiocy which I do find amusing.
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“ excessive execution practice in Texas so irresponsible.”
Umm and you know this is excessive how? I think that the nations who turn a blind eye to justice and grant mercy to a deranged murder is a very irresponsible, inhuman, and barbaric practice
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“Bush wasn´t only a supporter of this practice, he’s also responsible for a further increase of the killing. “
Uh I guess you will have to rephrase that and say that Americans are responsible for more death penalty convictions since we as a nation have spoken loudly that it is the right thing to do. Bush and other Americans can be pretty proud that we practice justice instead of giving it lip service and turning our backs upon the innocent victims.
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“Anyway, only reason why I brought up this subject is your ridiculous show of indignation about Schröder´s 4th wife.”
You missed the whole point. The point was that Schroder broke his promise about not raising taxes a mere 2 weeks or so after he was elected. I would think that a politician lying so blatantly would bother people…but I guess some people accept deceit and lies. The further point that I made is that Character counts…something liberals seem to be completely ignorant about….if someone is lying in their “personal” life all the time…breaking commitments in their personal life all the time…surprise surprise they are going to do it in their “public” life also. Politicians are of course human and make mistakes…but when it is habitual…then there is a problem that needs to be taken into account.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 31, 2002 04:31 AM |
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Quote:
You might want to check out a book by two renowned Climatologists “The satanic gases”….but some people will probably ignore it’s scientific findings and hard facts because it doesn’t suit their world view.
Oh, a book with the title "satanic gases" has been written, I didn´t know that, okay that refutes global warming.
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The same way some “reporters” record their latest interview with Elvis Presley.
Okay, Dargon, I conclude:
You put interviews that cast a bad light on one of the George Bushes into the same category as interviews with dead Elvis Presley.
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That seems like a wise practice…so were did either of the Bushes sign off on those fantasy interviews?
Those interviews did have a large echo through the international press, the question is: Where did Sherman and Talk magazine get sued for publishing fake interviews??
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Even though I may share the same political perspective as some pundits…I don’t give everything credence just because it suits my persepective.
That´s exactly what you do all the time here (calling the porn that you paste "highly reputable" or "an excellent thinker´s work"). You even dismiss interviews out of hand as "fantasy" just because you don´t like their containt.
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“ excessive execution practice in Texas so irresponsible.”
Umm and you know this is excessive how? I think that the nations who turn a blind eye to justice and grant mercy to a deranged murder is a very irresponsible, inhuman, and barbaric practice
How? Look at the numbers of deaths in Texas. 152 while Bush was governor. How many of them do you think had the money to pay a good lawyer? Yes, it´s better to have a revenge act ... maybe it might be even less barbaric and more civilised if you tortured them first. There´s simply no rational argument in favour of death penalty, many studies have shown that it does not prevent any crimes, it´s much more expensive than life-long imprisonment, and it´s irreversible - as you said before, the possibility of a mistake by the court cannot be excluded.
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You missed the whole point. The point was that Schroder broke his promise about not raising taxes a mere 2 weeks or so after he was elected. I would think that a politician lying so blatantly would bother people…but I guess some people accept deceit and lies.
I didn´t miss anything. Of course it bothers me, and I´m not happy about the alternatives - both Schröder and the conservative Stoiber have shown a dishonest election campaign. The difference is, I don´t defend this by saying things likeQuote:
He is a great politician and better yet a good man.
about someone I know only from the media. (And it must be added, even from what you get out of the media, the part which you don´t like is considered to be "fantasy".)
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The further point that I made is that Character counts…
Yes, as gouvernor he´s responsible for 152 executions (i.e. by supporting extreme laws and refusing clemency) and when he becomes presidents, he starts a couple of wars. That´s a man with character.
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if someone is lying in their “personal” life all the time…breaking commitments in their personal life all the time…surprise surprise they are going to do it in their “public” life also.
Uhm, I´ve heard and read that Bush´s insider trades (when he was the head of an oil company) would have brought him into prison in germany and most other european states.
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