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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Heroes V: A New Beginning
Thread: Heroes V: A New Beginning This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT»
ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted April 11, 2003 10:56 AM
Edited By: ThE_HyDrA on 14 Apr 2003

Heroes V: A New Beginning

The earliest information known about Heroes V was that NWC were thinking about reverting to the old Heroes I-III. Some people misinterpreted this as almost a sure reasoning as to why Heroes V will be a ‘trip down nostalgia lane’ as someone had said. It has also been rumoured by members of the community that Heroes IV was a ‘stepping stone’ to fully develop the greatness of Heroes V. Then there was the time of squabbling, people arguing about Heroes on the Battlefield, the Battlefield itself, and the uniqueness of castles. But all of that arguing has been put to rest by a few words, by Christian Vanover: “towns aren't going to return to what they were like in Heroes I-III” While I realise that this concerns only the towns aspect of the game, it would also make sense that NWC are going to start with a fresh slate, and remake everything for Heroes V. I am not saying, however, that this is set in stone, in fact, it is quite far from set in anything at the moment, but only time will tell what aspects are going to be taken from the previous series and ones which are completely new…..

There has been some Heroes V media circulating around the 3D0 Community, and with the untimely departure of Christian Vanover from the NWC team, there are likely to be some changes to the initial plan of Heroes V.
After the release of the two new screenshots, which can be found here: http://dynamic3.gamespy.com/~homm/images/heroes5/H5_Phoenix.jpg
And here: http://dynamic3.gamespy.com/~homm/images/heroes5/H5_Undead_Capital.jpg
It can be inferred that the adventure map will be using a similar engine to that of the Heroes IV engine, most likely with a few tweaks. The town appears to be very detailed, and looks a great deal larger and more unique (i.e, not a square) than its Heroes IV predecessor. The terrain, which happens to be the native one for Necropolis, looks very detailed, with not just one texture running throughout the whole screenshot. I am hoping this is also represented in the town screen.
The angle of the Phoenix in the screenshot suggests the horizontal chess-like view won’t be returning. Although, it doesn’t give too much away, since it is not represented with any other creatures, or on the battlefield. So the battlefield orientation is still up in the air. In my opinion though, it doesn’t seem exactly like Heroes IV, nor is it identical to III.

While NWC may only have a small development team at this point, it seems that already many aspects of Heroes IV are being changed and recreated. This thread’s purpose is to discuss ideas about the new changes (not to create lists for towns or make up creature ideas) to Heroes V. This includes Towns, Battlefield, Adventure Map, Adventure Map Objects, and others, if you so desire. How these features will be integrated into the current Heroes V can also be discussed, as can theorizing about levels, and town structures.

I will list 4 categories for each element, and comment on them respectively (You can use the same layout if you wish). These will be Perspective (Layout), Graphics, Engine, and Miscellaneous.

Towns

Perspective
It is quite obvious that a full 3D town map with interchangeable zoom options will not occur in Heroes V. What is certain, however, is that it will be different to anything we have seen in previous versions of the Heroes series. There are an infinite number of ways the town screen can be projected, and it is therefore difficult to predict which one will work best or will assimilate with Heroes V in an appropriate fashion. Some ideas which have occurred to me are:
=}Taken from a first person perspective where the hero visiting the castle (or a dweller if no hero is present) roams around the castle.
=}It is taken from a semi-3D perspective in which the whole castle can be see, and the camera swings from left to right along the front.
=}Basic Heroes IV layout with more interactivity.
Another aspect of towns concerning his topic are the positioning of creature dwellings and structures in the towns. The Heroes IV method was much too generic, as everything was placed in the same spot. And it seemed that each town had an equivalent structure. (The one in the same spot). This must change in Heroes V to Heroes III, for example where the town had its own unique setting, (Dungeon=subterranean, Fortress=swamp, Rampart=forest). I think this layout definitely needs to return in Heroes V for the town layouts to be somewhat pleasing to look at, not just copies of themselves with slight changes.

Graphics

A feature, which has been at the back of my mind recently are the background and ‘eye candy’ aspects of the town. Heroes III implemented these two features extremely well. The Rampart was perhaps the most scenic of the towns, with its lush meadows and acres of trees. Its background was of clear, blue skies above a very forest-like setting. What I’d like to see improved is when the town (such as a Dungeon) is above ground, its setting and scenery change. In essence, there is one layout for above ground and one for below. (Provided there is a subterranean area)
The eye candy aspect I mentioned was the moving of creatures or inhabitants within the castle. In Heroes IV, the town were almost static, with the exception of a few moving structures. A perfect example of a dose of what I want to see in Heroes V is the Heroes IV Rampart town. Not only did the Dragons fly in and out of the cliffs, periodically, a Gold Dragon appeared among the sea of Green Dragons. That gave extra satisfaction for me. It also had the moving waterfall for the Pegasus dwelling. Not only the creature dwellings moving, but some of the town’s inhabitants in the pre-built villages, which are found in Heroes IV, near the level 1 dwellings.
As for 2D-3D graphics, I would prefer 2D, as it can look nicer, and it is easier to manipulate. (I do not want to get in a discussion about 2D-3D graphics, just thought I’d voice my opinion briefly.)

Engine

The town engines in both Heroes III and Heroes IV aren’t perfect. In fact, I’m leaning towards more Heroes II. But, with that said, I think the town engine needs to be new and unique in order for it to work.In my opinion, after much deliberating, the no-upgrades system in Heroes IV did not work. It was too simple, and too short, and also put a ‘tax’ on the structures, which lead to inflated prices. I much prefer the Heroes III upgrades, where each creature had one upgrade. The 6 levels that Christian mentioned are exactly what I agree on. 7 levels were too much, and they were uneven, while 4 levels were much too little. 6 levels is perfect, in my opinion. It is an even number, which means there is an even advancement of levels, and 6 levels (+ upgrades hopefully) is enough to have ample depth without going over the top and the town being centred upon creatures.
I believe that the number of structures in each town needs to be increased. While there were the additions of the prison and the caravan in Heroes IV, (they should stay) there need to be more buildings to do with the town, and more unique buildings that link directly to the town. The shipyard needs to be available in every town, and the marketplace needs to return as in Heroes III, as does the Thieves Guild. New buildings are a must. While I don’t believe there need to be many more (1 or 2) there still needs to be extra depth added, especially in the castle upgrades (fort, citadel, etc.)
I also want it to be made clear that the structures (especially mage guilds) need to have progressively higher cost, as they were too easy to build in Heroes IV.
While the Stronghold should have inferior magic abilities to the other towns, they still need a mage guild, be it that it reaches level 2. Having a town without magic is too much of a disadvantage. It has, however, been mentioned by Christian that the towns will not be built around magic, but instead have their own unique theme, which could be very interesting.

Miscellaneous

On a miscellaneous note, even though I believe the citadel to castle upgrade or fort to citadel upgrade needs to be made more prominent by increasing creature growth, etc. I am willing to go back to the Heroes II method of ‘fortifications’, which made the castle sturdier.
I also encourage that the Thieves Guilds tally the information up the more you have in any towns. So if you have 3, it will give more information than 1.

Battlefield

Perspective

Perhaps one of the most pressing issues striking the Heroes world at the moment. The only ‘solid’ piece of information we have at this point in time is the famous screenshot of that magnificent Phoenix, which can be found earlier in the thread. At closer inspection of this screenshot, I can gather that the battlefield will not be exactly like Heroes IV, nor will it be exactly like the previous versions. A recent ‘Picture of the Day’ at Celestialheavens.com has strengthened my belief. (http://dynamic3.gamespy.com/~homm/potd_images/big/karyll_phoenix.jpg) It represents the Phoenix in both circumstances, and one can immediately decipher which one fits better. However, having said it fits better isn’t the same as saying it fits the best. While the Phoenix blends in with the Heroes IV background better, it is apparent that the Heroes V battlefield will start on a fresh slate, and not referring to the previous instances.
This would probably suit most people, because their preference of battlefield layout is very divided. While it is true that Christian made mention of a possibility that the battlefield will be returning to the left-right perspective: “We want to put the armies on the left and right sides of the screen.” The screenshot points in another direction. I myself am hoping for a rejuvenated battlefield, with greater practicality. My main problem with the Heroes IV battlefield was the grid and passibility. The grid was, in my opinion, to small and did not provide much aid. While the passibility factor was questionable. It seemed as though my creature could fit through the gap, but in actuality, could not. It took a HC member a while to interpret the grid and passibility, and posted it in the Lands of Axeoth for all to see.
Another characteristic changing in Heroes V is the size of the battlefield. The “nearly 50% larger” comment by Christian refers to the Phoenix’s actual size on the battlefield. As one can see from the screenshot in brackets above, it dwarfs both the Heroes III and Heroes IV creatures. This could also mean that the battlefield itself will be smaller than it was in Heroes I-IV.

Graphics

It is quite obvious now that the graphics for the battlefield will not be 3D. And why should they? They look better than any 3D picture that I’ve ever seen. The screenshots look glorious. While we have seen the front of the phoenix, ‘I don’t like seeing the back of my creatures’ activists are maybe hoping that the creature been rendered in 3D. This is because the phoenix still looks quite isometric, which could lead to having an army not facing us. This doesn’t bother me greatly, since I think that seeing the creatures from the back gives you the feel that you actually commanding them.

Engine

I would find it difficult to believe that it would stray too much from the original engine used in Heroes games. But the one that will have the greatest influence is Heroes IV, in my opinion. The line of sight was a great feature implemented in Heroes IV, but I think it can be extended further. Objects on the battlefield, such as trees, should not only halt progress, but act as a guard for ranged attacks as well. I think it is a bit illogical having only creatures as guards for LoS. While it may be too much of a benefit for one side, both sides will have the same problem, so it really depends in the way one uses it, thus adding more strategy.
The basic, turn based system should still be utilised, as should speed determining the creature/hero? Order, while movement determines the distance. The grid does need to be reworked in a way that one block would represent the smallest creature, 2x2 represents a large creature, and 2x1 represents long or wide creatures. Having larger grid squares allows for a more chess-like representation, which can still be used in an isometric screen. Realistic retaliation is another sizeable issue that was introduced in Heroes IV. In my opinion, this was another masterful idea. It made no-retaliation and first-strike more important, and at the same time, made battles more strategic and realistic. In terms of the ranged realistic retaliation, (RRR) it was not as good an idea as its counterpart. Ranged attacks are meant to be a surprise, and the sheer distance should be enough to put them off who to attack, let alone load the arrow.  
For the Heroes V battlefield engine to be perfect, I think it needs to expand slightly and come up with new ideas to suit the changes NWC are going to make in other areas. And since I don’t know what those changes are going to be, I can’t make a worthy comment on it.

Miscellaneous

A miscellaneous feature that could be important to some fans is the background of the battlefield. This was present in Heroes I, II and III, and showed a receding view of the landscape. One I can distinctly remember was from Heroes II, where, in the lava terrain, you would see many volcanoes, erupting and bubbling, as well as the liquid hot magma. The only problem is implementing it in Heroes V, with the non-left to right battlefield.
The aspect of the hero only cheering when the enemy troops were defeated was not enough in Heroes I, II and III. In Heroes V, it is really dependant on what is to become of heroes in combat, but at the moment, it is not looking good. If the hero is to just play a passive role in the battle, he/she should have more of a role, even if it is not in the combat itself. Maybe the hero could ride around to the other side of the battlefield and jeer the opposing hero, and possibly, if one of its creatures kills an enemy stack, that creature receives a bonus. Things like these may make the hero being on the sidelines not so bad, especially if there were more of them.

Adventure Map

Perspective

This issue may not be as hard-pressed as the previous matters, due to the commendations the Heroes IV adventure map perspective received, but it is an important issue nonetheless. Judging from the earlier screenshot of the adventure map it seems as though NWC have decided to stick with the diagonal or isometric view, where all objects are diagonal instead of straight like Heroes II. However, what does appear to be changing, is the individuality of the towns. This corresponds with the uniqueness that the towns will most likely possess on the town screen. They will no longer be pictured as boxes, all resembling the same basic plan of four corners and a large centrepiece, instead, they will have their own character and feel, this means different shapes, and dissimilar layouts. It will certainly be a step forward from the ‘toy boxes’ that we saw in Heroes IV, which is certainly an advantage. However, the diagonal adventure does pose a problem in my mind, but it can be easily fixed. All buildings and structures are diagonal either facing left or right, and there is no way to rotate it. Therefore, if one is making a map, one must build the area around a different way, and that may not assimilate with the remaining sections of the map. The way this quandary can be solved is by making objects rotatable to both left and right sides.
While the perspective of the adventure map may be quite similar to Heroes IV, one can be assured of more detail and the reliability of the old layout.

Graphics

It is quite apparent that the graphics engine will be fairly similar to the one utilised in Heroes IV. This is primarily because of the reduced team numbers at NWC. However, the engine will most likely be modified, so that the graphics can be updated into a new level of complexity and rendering. We’ve seen the battlefield graphics change immensely, but the adventure map is slightly behind. I believe that is acceptable, since the graphics of the adventure map were the least of our problems in Heroes IV. I would love to see the objects appear more realistic, and Heroes IV was a step toward this. From the Necropolis town screenshot, it gives the impression that the hero will actually be able to ‘fit into’ the town itself. This is what I am hoping for, as it gives the game a more realistic feel. The graphics of the adventure map objects and landscape objects themselves were rendered nicely, and the numbers of these objects were plentiful. One aspect that did not surpass my expectations was the water, and its effects. In Heroes V, I would like to see the water actually move in waves, to make it seem like water, not part of the terrain. Also what is needed is the swell of a ship that is sailing through, again adding towards the realistic approach.
Concerning the landscape objects, I would like to see them integrate into the terrain well, similar to the towns. This was a major problem with previous Heroes series, and was fixed to an extent in Heroes IV, but it needs to be improved upon more by having the structures ground base change colour and texture. I think going any further than that would be too challenging.

Engine

Scripting was one of the best features introduced to Heroes IV (I think) and should certainly be carried on to Heroes V. Another advancement of scripting should be that everything with a script in the game can be modified by the player. This means artifacts, spell descriptions, anything that normally would pop up onto the screen.
Unfortunately, not much is known about the adventure map’s engine yet, since it is impossible to tell just by peering at screenshots. Aspects that I would like for NWC to improve upon are:
Fog of War
I remember myself, Tristan, Djive and Linkki talking about this more than a year ago, and speculating upon its possibilities. What we had perceived was that the elevations in terrain would make town have a larger fog of war removal radius due to its high level. As it actuates, this was not the case. I would much rather see a higher level of coexistence with the terrain, fog of war, and the castle than the Fog of War being taken away at all.
Caravan
I would like to see the caravans (literally), as then you would know how far they travel and exactly what creatures are blocking the path (if there any), without you having to search for them. It would be appreciated if the caravans could actually be sent to another inter-actable place on the adventure map, such as a garrison or some other area where troops could be stationed. To portray this, the troops could be placed in the ranks automatically, or left outside if there all slots are filled.

A new feature that could be implemented could be a line of sight-on the adventure map. This incorporates the neutral creatures on the map not being able to see down a depression and therefore not spotting you going by. The same would happen to other computer players, and possibly even human players. This can also function with trees and mountains (Not able to see the hero behind them), and the game not making the object transparent so you are able to see. As always, a new skill could be attached to this, Line of Sight (Adventure Map)

Miscellaneous

I would actually like to see a greater array of objects, even though Heroes IV had the most in the series, they are hardly enough to fill an extra large, or even a densly structured large map. I find myself reusing the same objects time and time again. This can be achieved by objects such as mercenary camps returning, and other classic places such as the Gazebo and the Oracle, which shows all.
On the subject of oracles and such, marketplaces, taverns and thieves guilds need to be placed on the adventure map. It was too bland not having an adventure map marketplace or thieves guild and are (In my opinion) vital to have to work for, rather than being at the click of a button as they previously were.

Congratulations! You have received a ‘ThE_HyDrA prize’, for you were able to read up to this point without stopping.
While I realise I have not written about every aspect of the game, I can say that I have covered a fair amount. For those who wish not to get involved, don’t. But to those who would like to speculate about the new future of a new game, go ahead. All ideas are welcome, and nothing is too late as of yet. This thread replaces my earlier “Heroes V, The Future is Upon Us” thread.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Planeswalker
Planeswalker


Famous Hero
Chaotic Good
posted April 11, 2003 12:43 PM

Good (and lengthy) post as always!

I totally agree that the towns need more structures.
I hope that the right/left turrets from Heroes2 will make
a reappearance in H5. Furthermore, I'd like to see the Thieves Guild included, too: In the way The_Hydra mentioned.

But I don't think that Stronghold should have up to lvl 2 magic guilds. Think about it. Stronghold is powerful as it is, and they've got the Breeding Pens to compensate for the lack of magic guilds.
But every town definately needs new structures. Some more buildings to increase creature growth maybe, like in H3?

I feel that the entire H4 engine sucks. It's slow and you need a very good computer to cope with 5-player hotseat XL map for instance. I think 3do has to revamp/make a completely new engine for H5, since it has to cope with improved graphics and gameplay. I've got a 1 Ghz computer with 128 MB RAM, and it still takes forever to f.ex. load a battle. And I've seen games with the same quality as h4 (but with presumably better engines) running more smoothly on my computer.




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Vlaad
Vlaad


Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
posted April 11, 2003 01:43 PM
Edited By: Vlaad on 11 Apr 2003

I agree Stronghold shouldn't get the mage guild. Instead, Ogre Magi could be given several appropriate skills. Now they are ridiculous compared to Cyclops.
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Nasty
Nasty


Known Hero
castor nebun si orb pe cinste
posted April 13, 2003 02:22 AM bonus applied.

I agree with having objects on the battlefield.Not as many as Hiv but some bushes or trees that could help maybe you could even put a ranged unit in a tree so it could do more damage.Or you could hide a ranged unit under a bush making it invisible for the enemy.A very useful thing would be that the creatures could stay down.of course not all creatures would have this ability but several of them.Think about it. you would put a crusader behind a bush standing down and when an enemy would aproach you would surprise him with the crusader.OR even more it could be like this:before the battle begins you would have a turn and the enemy aswell where you would arange your army as you like,placing archers in trees,the other units behind trees or bushes..just like tactics in h3.It would be a problem for the ranged units to attack an unit that is behind a bush....but if another unit aproaches the bush the hidden unit should be exposed...of course it would get some protection from the bush but it could be hit.what do you say?


About the castles.There should be indeed more life in them.for example in every medieval movie in a haven you see lots of kids playing around,people working....or in a dungeon slaves working,some badass creature would beat them...or in a rampart ...elves training...dragons flying around...dwarves drinking...dendroids walking making the dwarves spilt their brew.or in a necropolis..in a graveyard you should be able to actually see zombies getting out from earth.living creatures transform into skeletons.vampires sucking blood from a women...and when you see it he flews away...leaving the dead there..and after a while it should become a zombie.More animated stuff.

About creatures on the battlefield i.ve said it already in another post in i will say it again.The creatures should be more animated.even say words.(read my other post to see my opinions about it)
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Vlaad
Vlaad


Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
posted April 14, 2003 11:03 AM

Good points, nasty, especially about town animations. I easily visualized your ideas in my head while reading your comment. Great, really.

Off topic, you have mentioned you missed Gelu in H4. There are two of us! While he may be H3 trademark, I wish he or some other guys and girls we loved could return.


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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted April 14, 2003 12:04 PM bonus applied.
Edited By: ThE_HyDrA on 18 Apr 2003

Thankyou for your replies

Heroes V should, in my opinion, be A New Beginning for the Heroes series. Not only should it incorporate many new features that make it stand out in such a way that the changes (to the gameplay engine at least) of Heroes IV look mild, but it also should divulge information from fans and players, and take parts of the previous series to make it a wonderful experience. However, if the two do not mix, there needs to be room for change. So not many aspects of Heroes are linked, this is because, as we found out from Heroes IV, it is very difficult to introduce new features if the gameplay is chained together. An example of this is the hexagon, which is why I’d not like to see this return, and at this point, it looks quite positive.

Much of the information released already points to the possibility of great change in the series. The towns not returned to what they were like in I-IV, the creatures being hand drawn and in an altered perspective, and the individuality of towns. While not much else has been identified, one can be fairly certain that there will be some significant changes to the adventure map. This is quite possibly why nothing concerning this has been released as of yet.

I am grateful to those who have voiced their opinions, but I would have expected more at this point. Maybe it was too long…..

Planeswalker:

“Good (and lengthy) post as always!”

Thanks . I try to include as much as I can in the initial post, so more discussion can emerge, seems as though it isn’t working for the first time. We’ll wait and see.

“I totally agree that the towns need more structures. I hope that the right/left turrets from Heroes2 will make a reappearance in H5.”

Yes, this is partially what I had in mind when I meant the castles should be given more importance to entice people to buy them earlier, or even buy them at all, which was the case in Heroes IV. The turrets are an excellent idea, which were employed in the Heroes II Warlock town, there were also others such as fortifications, etc. In order to make towns more unique, it is incompletely required to increase the number of structures, and consequently more things to do. Another idea is to increase the number of unique structures found in a town, not just a grail, creature dwellings and two power ups. By granting the town more unique structures, the towns become less alike, and could therefore make the decision making for towns even more vital.

“I’d like to see the Thieves Guild included, too: In the way The_Hydra mentioned.”

The reason why I would like to see them incorporated into the game this way is because when they were apart of the drop-down menu, it became too easy to acquire information. Everyday, check it and it would give you the answers. It was too edifying in that respect. However, I think that the amount information it bestowed upon you was reduced. If you would cast your mind back to Heroes I-III, it provided you with an extraordinary amount of information, but the catch was you had to work for it. I think this is by far the better method. A similar story is attached to the marketplace.

“But I don't think that Stronghold should have up to lvl 2 magic guilds. Think about it. Stronghold is powerful as it is, and they've got the Breeding Pens to compensate for the lack of magic guilds.”

Sorry about that, but I was referring to if the Stronghold had a small mage guild, it would not possess as many might enhancing structures as it did in Heroes IV. They probably would still have the breeding pens, but they would not give as much a bonus as they did. If simple ogres in the Stronghold town are capable of producing magic, then certainly heroes must be too. As another drawback, the town would not be able to build magic annexes (if they are still present) like other towns.

“Some more buildings to increase creature growth maybe, like in H3?”

This sparks an idea in my mind, instead of all towns increasing creature growth, the primarily magic oriented towns promote magic growth more. By this I mean that more spells per level, more spell points, and greater power. While this certain town would still have a creature bonus, it would not be in that structure, it would be in the castle. So a might oriented town would only have a very small magic bonus but a large creature bonus. This works well with my opinion above.

“I feel that the entire H4 engine sucks. It's slow and you need a very good computer to cope with 5-player hotseat XL map for instance.”

By the engine, you mean the overall performance and speed of the game? I define the engine as the gameplay and strategy behind the game. I have only a 266MhZ computer, and Heroes IV: TGS runs wonderfully without adventure map animations, and a big sluggish with them on. I have never played a 5 player hotseat, but I always play four player, and the only problem I have noticed are the slightly slow turn times.

“I think 3do has to revamp/make a completely new engine for H5, since it has to cope with improved graphics and gameplay.”

Judging from the Necropolis screenshot, I don’t think the graphics will be too much different, but it is possible that they will be more compatible with your computer so that a computer well over the recommended requirements should run it perfectly.

Vlaad:

“I agree Stronghold shouldn't get the mage guild. Instead, Ogre Magi could be given several appropriate skills. Now they are ridiculous compared to Cyclops.”

While I have voiced my opinion on the first sentence of your post, I don’t believe I have done the same on the second. Your idea is sound enough, but I don’t think it should be a replacement for a mage guild. They are very weak compared to their level three counterparts, so they certainly do need an upgrade. Increasing the amount of spells they cast and their overall statistics slightly should prove sufficient.

Nasty:

“Put a ranged unit in a tree so it could do more damage. Or you could hide a ranged unit under a bush making it invisible for the enemy.”

A ranged unit in a tree? Do you mean behind? The above quote is what I said should happen in Heroes IV, but it didn’t. So when I played my first match I hid behind a tree and got hit….. That was weird, so I believe trees and bushes and obstacles like escarpment should block the view of the opposing ranger and therefore rendering them unable to hit you with a ranged attack.

“Very useful thing would be that the creatures could stay down. Of course not all creatures would have this ability but several of them.”

This idea is intriguing. However, I doubt many would use it since it really doesn’t make a difference most of the time. The only time it would is when the creature is behind a bush, and needed to hide. It depends how well this is implemented. It could be a special ability of a creature, or it could take up a turn in battle for the creature. If it were to be introduced, I’d like it to do so as the former suggestion. I doubt anybody would use it if it were used as the second one.

“Before the battle begins you would have a turn and the enemy aswell where you would arange your army as you like,placing archers in trees,the other units behind trees or bushes..just like tactics in h3.”

I agree here, I have always wished that the tactics skill could return in Heroes IV, and now Heroes V. I have an idea of my own as to how tactics should return, and your opinions of the creatures hiding behind the trees could be incorporated into it.
Basic
How the army is set up. The overall formation of the army. The player can model the army to his or her likings instead of just tight or normal.
Advanced
Includes the basic effect, but the troops can move further out into the battlefield.
Expert
The units may move even further out into the battlefield, and protective spells like firewall and quicksand can be cast, but they act as the heroes (or creature’s) turn in the tactics section.
Master
All the creatures moves can be pre-defined. An example is that a slower unit, such as a crossbowman, will be able to move before a Champion in combat according to the discretion of the player. This incorporates placing behind obstacles.
Grandmaster
The first turn of the opponent can be estimated working off information given to the computer by your formation.

“There should be indeed more life in them.for example in every medieval movie in a haven you see lots of kids playing around,people working”

Again, you have taken the words right out of my mouth, even though I did mention it in my initial post. It really does give the castle more life and that people actually inhabit it. I don’t think that bubbles forming in the hydra pond and then popping indicates enough movement. The Hydra should raise its head from time to time, and perform different actions, as in battle. While I realise that NWC has a small team, it would be worth putting these actions for a true sequel like Heroes V. It appears they are going to spend a great deal of time on it anyway.

“The creatures should be more animated.even say words”

Hmmm. They seemed fairly animated in Heroes IV, but I don’t see why they couldn’t do more. Maybe a constant fighting of the Hydra heads, or wiping of the blade for a crusader, not always the same action as in Heroes IV. I don’t see why creatures should not say words, except for creatures like Black Dragons, which should do as they normally do. I do agree that it is possible for the knights and archers to speak. However, the idea is not too important in the whole Heroes V development.

Thankyou all for your replies, and I am looking forward to more in the future.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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maximus
maximus


Famous Hero
Bronzed God
posted April 17, 2003 03:40 AM

hola

i think the tactics in general is a good idea, and even the placing of say, archers on higher ground to maybe double there damage etc. and objects on the battlefield, whatever  they are, tree or wall or whatever, should provide much more protection.

the battle or combat grid needs major work done on it! i want to know exactly where and how far a hero/critter can go/do. i much prefer the hex of h3. think this is very important in a "strategy" game.

day and night !! i would like to see, instead of a 7 day 7 turn period, a 7 day 14 turn period, ie 7 turns over daylight and 7 over night time. think this could not only be interesting but add lots of atmosphere to the gameplay.

i didnt like the fact that u can have ur creatures wondering around the map and scouting without a hero, as in h4. think this should be removed.

i think i read some coment somewhere in these threads about creatures talking ????? plz, no! why would u want them 2 ?
again, homm was supposed to be a strategy game not role playing, i hope that the development team dont lose there direction of where this game is going.




____________
Frost. Sometimes it makes the blade stick !

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nasty
nasty


Known Hero
castor nebun si orb pe cinste
posted April 17, 2003 09:42 PM

"A ranged unit in a tree? Do you mean behind? "

yes i mean in trees.like those sharpshooters that were hidden in trees...waiting to kill the enemy...i even agree that two leveled battlefield(earth and air) and if the enemy has griffins for example he could see all your hidden creatures.this could work.the creatures in the air could still be hit from the ground but they would take less damage,and the archers from the tree could do extra damage to them.

I think even the heroes should speak(like in disciples 2).
Necromancers cursing all the time...mages making incantations...or thieves whispering...or a ranger hero
saying "my arrow will kill you" or when the hero gets another artifact "beware of my new bow"..or something like that.

about the animation in a castle...there shouldnt be just one building representing the creature they offer...
for example for the mages tower...before the building is constructed..there should be many mages towers but they are lifeless....and after you build the structure..in the middle of the towers apears a greater tower that gives life to the other ones and after a while magic starts spreading around....mages go to the window and they try new spells in the air...others should walk near the mages towers looking for ingredients for their spells.in some towers even for fun some mages should mix their spells creating a big mess...with smoke around its tower.
i can think of other things but i'll write them in time.






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You can trick me with food.Possesions mean nothing to a navajo.

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Lordskeleton
Lordskeleton


Adventuring Hero
The really REALLY bad guy
posted April 17, 2003 09:49 PM
Edited By: Lordskeleton on 17 Apr 2003

Quote:
I didnt like the fact that you can have your creatures wandering around the map and scouting without a hero, as in H4. I think this should be removed.


Actually, in H2 i always ended up with some unwanted joins killing movement, morale or whatever. And I wished for nothing else but being able to set them to guard a mine or join another hero far way without having to diminish my action range (Due to the less than excessive movement amount). Now that movement aren't the great issue it once was, I rarely send my creatures into battle or exploring without a hero. Lol, 3DO removed the reason and the problem almost at the same time.  

A living town is something I've missed all since they removed it in H2. Good ideas 'bout those mages.


____________
Vad gagnar det en människa om han vinner hela världen men förlorar sin själ?

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted April 19, 2003 11:00 AM
Edited By: ThE_HyDrA on 21 Apr 2003

Taking the best from the old, and new improvisations…..

In my opinion, there are two aspects of the Heroes Series that need to be rectified. Heroes IV took quite a long time to develop, even if the team was a large one. It is possible, however, that they forgot many of the original reasons why Heroes became famous, and placed things in that maybe shouldn’t have been. Perhaps, the game was too much of a pioneer in too many ways. For Heroes V to be successful in my mind, not only does it need to go back to its roots, by doing this it incorporates many older features that brought the game stardom. The second is to bring vibrant new aspects into the game, which will add to strategy, not detract. The game could be a muddled mess of new and old features, or, on the other hand, could be a perfectly interwoven tapestry of the old and the innovative.

To explain the above paragraph, we could take towns as an example. Heroes II, the original (not the expansion) had 6 towns, each with six levels. These encompassed some creatures with upgrades, and a handful without. This supplemented a strange feeling; since an equivalent level in another town might have had an upgrade, while yours did not. The levels were not as clear cut, suggesting NWC did not want to make any large distinctions, except for the creature’s own statistics. This system, together with Heroes IV’s, may work surprisingly well, but then again, it might not. Although, I do believe that the former would be the most likely case. One still has to choose the creatures from each level, however, they will be shrouded, so the levels aren’t as apparent. This could mean great differentiation between creature strengths. In conjunction with the decision making process, one of the two creatures will have an upgrade, and the other would not. This would then, in turn mean that the creature without an upgrade will be stronger than its counterpart ‘unupgraded’, but slightly weaker than it when it was upgraded. I believe that this could enhance the Heroes IV method further.

Maximus:

“and even the placing of say, archers on higher ground to maybe double there damage etc.”

Yes, indeed this would be a welcome inclusion to help the Heroes IV battlefield. The creatures should be more interactive with the terrain, as you infer here. It would certainly make a great deal of sense to have an archer deal more damage on an elevation, because, aren’t the towers in the castle basically an elevation? These also warrant bonuses. What could be the problem, however, is how to monitor the rate of increased damage to the ratio of the raised terrain.

This could also work vice-versa, so if a creature were attacking this archer from below him, it would not deal as much damage as if they were on level ground, or even higher ground.

“and objects on the battlefield, whatever they are, tree or wall or whatever, should provide much more protection.”

Yes, in my opinion, they should become just like an immobile creature. So, if the creature is directly behind the wall (or not in the ranged attackers line of sight) that creature could not be hit. I was disappointed when this was not included in Heroes IV. The trees did not provide any protection in Heroes IV, and were only an obstacle for the creature to work around. To develop this idea further, the trees could actually have a small amount of hit points, (maybe 50, maximum of 25 per hit) and the archer could shoot at it do destroy the top half. Then, it would be characterised as a stump on the battlefield, and it will no longer serve as a shield.

“the battle or combat grid needs major work done on it! i want to know exactly where and how far a hero/critter can go/do.”

The first sentence you have written, I would agree with. I couldn’t understand how the Heroes IV combat grid could actually help somebody? They were just small triangles, I think it is (never use the grid) and one had to figure out how many triangles the creature took up. This also made it increasingly hard to measure if your creature could fit through the space provided. Also, it was difficult to tell if the creature was adjacent or not. This was not the case in Heroes III and II, where the grid was large, and you could immediately see how many hexes your creature used. My idea for the Heroes V battlefield grid is it needs be reworked in a way that as such: One hexagon (or hex) would represent the smallest creature. Thus, 1x1. 2x2 represents a large creature, and 2x1 represents long or wide creature. Having larger grid squares allows for a more chess-like representation, which can still be used in an isometric screen. To advance the grid system, I believe there should be larger grids for the creatures, that you can see clearly, and small grids for the movement shadow, this will make movement for the creatures more accurate, no more one hex or no hex.I am really not sure what compelled NWC to make such small grid hexes.

Concerning your second sentence, the grid worked well in one minor respect, you could actually see how far your creature could go. The movement shadow was an excellent idea, and I still have that turned on. The reason for this is I do not have to move my cursor across the screen to find how far my creature can travel. It is extremely accurate, too.

“day and night !! i would like to see, instead of a 7 day 7 turn period, a 7 day 14 turn period, ie 7 turns over daylight and 7 over night time. think this could not only be interesting but add lots of atmosphere to the gameplay.”

It could work, but in essence, it is really just cramming another seven days into a week. It has been discussed before, in this thread: http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?FID=5&TID=7625
I see no real reason for the idea, unless being in the dark drastically alters gameplay dynamics compared to be in the light of day. Realistically, I cannot really see this happening; therefore, I believe it would be an unnecessary complication.

“didnt like the fact that u can have ur creatures wondering around the map and scouting without a hero, as in h4. think this should be removed.”

I would have to disagree. This was an excellent feature in my opinion, and it alleviated the hassle of having to buy a whole new hero or caravan to transport your creatures. Some points include:
+>Hero may be unavailable to transport them
+>Garrison is full
+>Heroes cost money ($1,000+)
+>Caravans cost nearly as much
Plus they are free to roam the map, and cannot claim anything, making their power a very slight one. This also means that this does not disturb any other town or player by flagging mines or towns, since they can’t.

“i think i read some coment somewhere in these threads about creatures talking ????? plz, no! why would u want them 2 ?
again, homm was supposed to be a strategy game not role playing, i hope that the development team dont lose there direction of where this game is going.”

You could be right here. It could be an unneeded impediment, and it may be difficult to implement, with all of the other action occurring in the battlefield. The only place I can think of to put the writing is the little bar in the Heroes II and III games.

Nasty:

“like those sharpshooters that were hidden in trees...waiting to kill the enemy”

That is possible. If this were to transpire, then I believe it should take a turn, and the ability to hide inside a tree would be subject to how large the creature was. For instance, a creature would only be able to fit into a tree when it was 1x1 hexes large. Anything else and it would be considered unrealistic. This idea actually coexists quite well with the one I considered. The tree had 50 HP and a creature could deal 25 per shot.

Also, I believe that if the creature was in the tree, it would receive a small bonus, maybe 5%, since the ranger has the time to get an accurate shot, versus the heat and intensity of an open battlefield.

“the creatures in the air could still be hit from the ground but they would take less damage,and the archers from the tree could do extra damage to them.”

Surprisingly, this is not a new idea. It can work, but I believe it would be too complicated considering the scheme of things, and would most likely give flying creatures too much of an advantage. And any advantage the flyers get, the walkers become weaker than their ‘race’ already is.

“about the animation in a castle...there shouldnt be just one building representing the creature they offer...”

Well, this seems like a commendable idea, in my opinion. Can your idea be likened to the construction method of the upgraded structures in Heroes III? Where the building grew larger and more lavish with the upgrade?
My personal idea for this is: When more mages, in your instance, can be recruited, there are many of them moving around. However, when they have been recruited, nobody dwells in the place until the next day. I think this would suffice the eye candy cravings of most Heroes fans.

LordSkeleton:

“And I wished for nothing else but being able to set them to guard a mine or join another hero far way without having to diminish my action range”

I also had this problem. I wanted to rid myself of the other castle’s creatures and let them be on their own without affected my main army but still retaining that kingdom army strength. In Heroes IV, this problem was solved easily, and I would hate for the creatures to need a hero once more. It is too impractical.

“Lol, 3DO removed the reason and the problem almost at the same time.”

Yep. This change also made me very happy. One of the perfect changes, except that I wish they could have been just as impeccable with the Heroes in Combat implementation.

“A living town is something I've missed all since they removed it in H2.”

I do believe that the Rampart town in Heroes III was an example of a ‘living town’ after Heroes II. Just wonderful to look at.

As some new information surfaces, as we expect it should, since Charles Dickinson, a.k.a Benefice (NWC Development Guy) provided us with the words Soon TM. Hopefully then I can provide you with more insights into Heroes V.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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streetfire
streetfire


Hired Hero
slang junky
posted April 22, 2003 06:52 AM

i totaly agree towns should be more alive, the rampart in homm3 was a good example, but it could have benn alot better. the dragons flying in and out of caves was a good idea, but imagine dragons flying all aronud the whole layoutand maybe occaisonally flying to the fountain of fortune for a drink, also elves, dwarves and occaisonally centaurs shopping around in the marketplace
____________
it depends on whether u really wanna toss a salad

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LordTitan
LordTitan


Famous Hero
Hit Dice: 76d12+608 HP
posted April 22, 2003 01:52 PM

What a lovely Topic

Artifacts
Why should there be millions of artifacts? There's just too many. Many of them are useless, artifacts should be replaced by items and artifacts should be a bit more powerful, and they shouldn't show up everywhere.

Bad Things Happen
Everything good always happens. Why do Things have to just have to go the "Royalty's" way? Oh is it because people just do everything right? Nah, it's because the story designer can't think of any good disasters, and can't get his head around the idea of evil winning something over good. Why? Because there has too be a happy ending. I liked the campiagns in H2  better than in H1, H3, H4, and if they don't stop fooling around H5.

Graphics
Personally I think the graphics are amazing, but what about your poor computer? It'll have to process millions of complex images, and grab RAM from everywhere, therefore causing your computer to be slow and worthless until you defragment the drive. I'll admit that the graphics are nice, but they're just too complicated for system 6 months behind. Age of empires graphics are nice and they only need about 32 MB of ram.
____________
Spaek the Titan

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Magus
Magus


Hired Hero
Warper of Time-Space
posted April 23, 2003 03:53 AM bonus applied.

On Artifacts
Artifacts is a misnomer, many of them are merely magical items. Artifacts would be things relic/major class and higher. Also I think that all the artifacts (not magical items) need to be unique. Two people running around with magical flaming swords yes. Two people running around with the True Gryphonheart Blade or Gelu's bow etc. no.

On Towns
Certainly a more lively town would be appreciated. Another thing I think is needed are more non-creature structures. Things like the shops and caravans were good starts, but there should be more, plus some of the bonus structures, like Sacred groves and thieves gauntlet were weak to the point of useless. I'm not saying there should be massive unbalancing structures, they just need to be a bit more creative. Not all of them need to be buildings per se, but could be programs like training your towns citizens to fight in the case of attack. A couple ideas...
Mercenary Guild: Can hire creatures of most kinds. These creatures can exceed your current building level, but they cost an upkeep in gold every day.
Militia Traning: Will create groups of militia in siege combat for defense. The amount of creatures created depends on the town's population(hamlet,village,city,etc.)
Enhanced Taxation: Gets an additional % of income from town. Town will eventually revolt .
Thieves guild: Think Heroes II, plus allow your thieves to be set on defense or offense. Offense will discover more information. Defense will block information about you, or give misinformation. Lose some of your daily income.

On combat
Terrain should definately be more interactive, both passively, like elevation bonuses and better obstacles, and actively, like digging trenches, setting traps, and "editing" the terrain (with armageddon for example)
Another idea to limit the power of ranged units is to only allow a number equal or less than the archer group to be killed. If this seems unfair, try hitting multiple targets with one arrow. Some creatures(cyclopes) would ignore this. The same restriction could apply to melee units as well, but im assuming that each attack involves a bit more time than the animation.

On adventure map
Add some weather effects(see the thread "Should Heroes V have weather in it?"). Also add a new adventure map object: Hamlets. These are tiny towns whose effects are completely dictated by the mapmaker. You could find an artifact in one, have it act as a sawmill, or have it be a combination creature gen, garrison, and mini-gold mine so it acts like a small town. This could add alot of strategy using the mini-town design, and for those like me who enjoy the RPG element, the potential here is great.

On Heroes
Heroes need to be unique. Not only ceasing to use the "one size fits all" hero profiles that were in Heroes IV, but returning specialties. I agree with the desicion to remove heroes from combat, but they should put something in its place, like the leaders suggestion.

On Alignments
More! Different! Interesting! Not made of invented creatures!

All for now
____________
So was the land riven by Chaos and Destruction, and so it was cleansed from existence. I did this, the Magus of Ly'kail, Magus of the Sylvan Kingdoms.

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted April 24, 2003 08:25 AM
Edited By: ThE_HyDrA on 25 Apr 2003

Unknown Developments

A phase of the ‘in-development’ Heroes V has dawned on me. While there is some information known about this aspect of the game, it is still too early to tell if this change can prove to be advantageous to Heroes V or not. The feature I am referring to is the upgrade and creature development system. I do realise there is another thread for this, however, what I am discussing is quite different.

Known Information

The information we have on this topic is quite vague, because it allows the mind to roam free with possibilities.
“...the Phoenix is an example of what the Level 6 creatures for each kingdom will be like…”
This points to the fact that there will be at least six levels. However, many of us have inferred that since the Phoenix was the highest level in Heroes IV, it is also going to be the on highest level in Heroes V. This may not be the case, but the information does lead us to believe that it is. Taking this into account, how we recruit/upgrade or choose creatures is a more complicated matter.

The Possibilities

This is where it starts to get very convoluted and complex. Throughout the evolution of the Heroes Series, there have been many methods used to upgrade and develop your towns creature army. They have all had their problems and their highlights. Although, some may disagree with me on what they are.....
Heroes I, II:
Plus (+)
+> Very unique between towns
+> Not every level had an upgrade
Minus (-)
-} Too much inconsistency
-} Possibly unbalanced towns
Heroes III:
Plus (+)
+> All creatures had an upgrade
+> Gave more variety
Minus (-)
-} Too difficult to maintain in all army slots
-} Perhaps too structured
Heroes IV:
Plus (+)
+> Freedom in choice
+> Differing combinations
Minus (-)
-} No further development (i.e. upgrades)
-} Not all creatures in town were recruited
Heroes V??
Each system has their advantages and disadvantages, as I had mentioned before. In my mind, 6 levels is perfect, but the question is: What method will be used? Or will the system become a concoction of all of the previous upgrade systems? A few possibilities for Heroes V are:
+> Done like Heroes IV, where one has to decide which creatures one wants. This has the same negatives as Heroes IV though. It also raises the question of will there be 7 recruitable creatures? 5 levels where one must decide, and the first level where you are permitted to pick both?
+> Using the Heroes III method, where each creature has an upgrade and their own level. This would in turn encompass 12 creatures per town. This could also prove too much for an army to handle. However, it could function well if creatures moved by themselves, and caravans were present.
+> Utilise the Heroes I and II upgrade system, which would mean some inconsistency but also irregularity and an indefinite series of events. The system is unstructured, which allows for random map qualities and gameplay. Very popular back in 1996, will it still be the same in 2004?
+>Have a mixture of Heroes II and IV, which, in my opinion, will be the most valuable to the success of Heroes V. One decides on a creature for that level (like Heroes IV), and that creature may or may not have an upgrade. It would change for every level, for example, there must be one creature every level with an upgrade. This points to structure and freedom at the same time.
+>Then there are the methods thought up by God_Boy and Wyvern, which could also do very well in Heroes V. However, as good as these ideas are, I don’t see NWC changing the formula too much in this case.

My replies to the posters:

Streetfire:

“i totaly agree towns should be more alive, the rampart in homm3 was a good example, but it could have benn alot better.”

It was probably the best example we have of an active town in the Heroes Series. It was an excellent start, since it was not only green dragons flying throughout the dragon cliffs, but the occasional Gold Dragon. This variety is an illustration of what I would hope to happen for every structure. While it is nice to see some life in the town, I don’t wish for anything too drastic to be done, since the effort could go into improving other possibly faulty aspects of the game. An exemplar of what amount of action I think would be suitable can be found below:
‘In the dragon cave, you can see them hording the treasure, as they surround the area, flying about as they scout of interlopers.’

“layoutand maybe occaisonally flying to the fountain of fortune for a drink, also elves, dwarves and occaisonally centaurs shopping around in the marketplace”

I believe that the creatures should be confined to their dwellings, otherwise the situation gets too chaotic, and the town wouldn’t look as nice. Too much clutter can degrade the appearance of a town, especially if everything is in motion and crossing over everything.

LordTitan:

“What a lovely Topic”

Thankyou. It’s great to see that you like it.

Artifacts

“Why should there be millions of artifacts? There's just too many. Many of them are useless, artifacts should be replaced by items and artifacts should be a bit more powerful, and they shouldn't show up everywhere.”

I believe you have a very good point. However, if there are more aspects of a hero or army that an artifact can affect, then I see no reason to reduce their numbers. If artefacts became redundant, then it is very feasible that their figures should change. However, I believe that they are not superfluous, and therefore should continue at about the same number. I commend you for the idea of more items, (weak artifacts) and the artifacts being more special and perceived as generally more powerful. This makes great sense. The frequency of their numbers is at the discretion of the mapmaker. Heightening or lowering the figures of the artefacts wouldn’t make a difference.

Storyline

“Everything good always happens.”

I read that paragraph over and over a few times and still not realise what you were saying. Yet, now, I understand clearly, and would certainly agree with you. I am sick of the ‘Good’ side always emerging victorious, when the evil side no doubt has stronger forces. I would also like variation in what side wins the story battles or campaigns. Even though you can choose who you would like to win, it doesn’t feel the same, given that it really isn’t meant to happen. Yes, let’s return to the unpredictable Heroes II storylines, I really liked the people and land of Enroth.

Graphics

“Personally I think the graphics are amazing, but what about your poor computer?”

Quite easily fixed. Upgrade your current computer or buy a new one altogether. If Heroes V didn’t have great graphics, it would be laughed upon by other players and developers for NWC failing to optimise their resources and produce an effervescent looking game. I cannot really speak, seeing that I have a PII 266, but games always improve upon their graphics with time, and so does the computer market. I don’t think computers have feelings, so I really don’t mind if they have to process millions of pixels. It is much easier to buy a new system than have a game with sub-par graphics, since the latter would be unprofitable for the people who have state of the art computers.

Magus:

“Artifacts is a misnomer, many of them are merely magical items. Artifacts would be things relic/major class and higher.”

Very true. Things that classify as artifacts in the game may be simply a magical article, as you said. I agree that artefacts should conceal a higher power than they have. It is good that NWC have classified them into classes in Heroes IV, except items is one of those classes. They initially need to be split into items and artefacts, then the other sub-phylums come.

You also bring up a good point about the duplication of an inimitable artifact, such as True Gryphonheart’s Blade. It would appear to be obscure if one found two of the same incomparable artifact in one map.

“I'm not saying there should be massive unbalancing structures, they just need to be a bit more creative. Not all of them need to be buildings per se, but could be programs like training your towns citizens to fight in the case of attack.”

I agree with the first sentence of this short paragraph. They do in fact need to be more creative with their choices, things such as +1 extra production for precious resource mines, or the ‘Brimstone Stormclouds’ from Heroes III. The things that were inherent to the towns and could be built. More of these instead of having a couple of unique structures which don’t really offer anything to do with the town. By this I mean that Asylum should have had something to offer to its stealth ability, to train the heroes in their special secondary skill.

I however disagree with your subsequent sentence. I don’t see why the citizens of the town need to be prepared to fight, unless you mean that they are prepared to fight and then add to the defense of the town. Although, I don’t really see this happening. However, you mercenary guild and Thieves Guild ideas sound quite laudable.

Combat

“both passively, like elevation bonuses and better obstacles, and actively, like digging trenches, setting traps, and "editing" the terrain (with armageddon for example)”

Your idea is quite intriguing. Digging trenches, however, should be left to real war games, like RTS strategy instead of turn based fantasy games like Heroes, which rely on spells, magic and the environment to get the upper hand in the game. Setting traps, only via spells, since setting manual traps don’t really fit well in the context of the battle. I know what you mean by ‘editing’ the terrain. Similar to what occurs in ‘Worms’ games, correct? If this is so, I believe it should only be in effect for powerful spells that affect the ground, like earthquake and Armageddon. For all other spells, no, otherwise we would find the battlefield to have disappeared.

“Another idea to limit the power of ranged units is to only allow a number equal or less than the archer group to be killed.”

I am still undecided concerning this idea of yours. It does seem to contradict the Heroes rule of damage calculation, however, it does make a more logical point than the current rule. Since I am ambivalent on this topic, I’m going to have to abstain from making a true decision, thus I will have to stick with the current system.

Adventure Map

“Also add a new adventure map object: Hamlets. These are tiny towns whose effects are completely dictated by the mapmaker.”

This idea is both enthralling and imperative. The former because the prospect of the changes this idea could inflict on the adventure map, and the independence that the object induces towards strategies and the player. The latter for the reason that the inclusion of these objects will be such a change to the gameplay style, and would rate very high on the importance factor for its sheer versatility. I think that this is a great idea and add some diversity into the game and the adventure. As you said, just like a ‘mini town’.

“Not only ceasing to use the "one size fits all" hero profiles that were in Heroes IV, but returning specialties.”

I have been saying this for I don’t know how long. The heroes need to become an individual with their own background and story. This would then lead to their special ability. However, I believe they need to be more creative with this design. Not just an increased effectiveness towards Wyverns like my favourite hero was in Heroes III. (Guess who) Instead, there needs to be a deeper specialty that only that certain hero is capable of doing.

Alignments

“More! Different! Interesting! Not made of invented creatures!”

Yes, you’re in luck, actually. I would tend to agree with you here, towns need to have more of a theme, not just its magic and its terrain like Heroes IV. It is imperative that the majority of the creatures are mythological of mythology-based. It is good however, to contain a few of NWC’s creations. The reason you’re in luck is because of the following statement:
“The kingdoms for Heroes V will definitely work differently than we've ever seen before, and each will have their own unique "theme" rather than being built around a particular kind of magic.” – Christian Vanover

Thankyou all for the replies, it is always great to receive well thought-out opinions from other members of the community. The depth of thought shown here is very promising.

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"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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GrunanCross
GrunanCross


Famous Hero
King of the Underdark
posted April 25, 2003 10:49 AM

I know it may sound dunb,but I would like there to be time involed in when you build. like building a Town hall mayhaps it should take a day or too..cause I think that would make it more life like,and then say a Dragon Cave would take 3 days,you could dismantel it if you needed money or to build something else,but you,d only get back a portion of what it took!
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Ziggurat
Ziggurat

Tavern Dweller
posted April 27, 2003 08:58 AM
Edited By: Ziggurat on 27 Apr 2003

Cool thread

Want your post to be any longer? It was a good read though.

Hydra:
I'm not going to go into detail about your first post, but I'll just try an get some opinons across about the latest one you have here.Your upgrade analysis there seems pretty detailed. I would be happy with any one of those upgrade systems, cause, as you said, they are all pretty good. But if i had to choose, I'd go for the Heroes 3 way. I think its good because you got to choose every creature that was in the town. That was a bad thing in Heroes 4, so I would not like to have Heroes 5 have only half the choices being built. I don't see the transportation of monsters as a large problem. All you need to do is to increase the number of slots available in the army of a hero. So you can fit almost all of the monsters, upgraded and not upgraded into the same army. I think that there will only be 6 levels. Because that Christian guy had said that the Phoenix was going to be a monstrous creature, so I'll take that as being about the strongest. But 7 levels is also quite possible. Also, why is the Heroes 3 upgrade system too structured? Its fine, and its a known fact that Heroes 3 is the most loved of the Heroes games. It is also my favorite, and I think that many people will agree with me about that.

The main reason for the storyline always going in the way of the "Good" side is because it's a part of the Heroes story, and maybe if the evil win one, its not because they have stronger forces, is because the game developers wanted he story to unfold that way for future games.

I've gotta agree with the towns being more alive and having more structures of their own. Again, this is what Heroes 3 had, and it was a better game because of these things. Heroes 4 didnt have them, and thats why people are complaining about it. Magus ideas all sound very cool.

Forgot to mention: There need to be as many of those unique buildings in heroes5 as in heroess 3. Like the cage of warlords in fortress, some of those buildings only a kind of town had.

Quote from grunancross
I know it may sound dunb,but I would like there to be time involed in when you build. like building a Town hall mayhaps it should take a day or too..cause I think that would make it more life like,and then say a Dragon Cave would take 3 days,you could dismantel it if you needed money or to build something else,but you,d only get back a portion of what it took!


Yeah it seems pretty good. It does add some realism to the game. But it is a fantasy game, so I dunno if it will fit in too good. What game did you get the idea from? Or did you just make it up?
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Nasty
Nasty


Known Hero
castor nebun si orb pe cinste
posted April 28, 2003 02:12 AM

I agree with hydras ideeas about the life in the towns..yhe one with the mages...there are hundreds of possibilities...
think about the haven...seeing cavaliers justing...and crusaders trainig...as well the crossbowmen while upstairs the angels look upon the humans....
Indeed the Rampart was the most beautiful town  of all...there was life and that sight made it my favorite castle...i think that the castle apearance should be changed...i mean the Rampartwalls should be made of trees...
and the necropolis walls made of bones...with flying spirits around it,screaming...i know the castles in h4 had few things that made them unique but not enough...
But if there will be more life in the castle the castle screen should be bigger...cause seeing those mages run around their towers...should be easy...but there are many creatures...imagine seeing the titans...in the same screen...the mages towers are filled with mages that learns spells...while in the cloud castle apears a titan that throws a lightining in the sky..for fun...
But there should be different levels of life...for example there are douzens of mages..but only a few titans...it would look great seeing the whole town moving around and after the recruiting...emptyness...it would make you feel good.
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Gerdash
Gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted April 28, 2003 02:03 PM

Quote:
and the necropolis walls made of bones...with flying spirits around it,screaming...
i hope there will be no screaming in the undead town, otherways i would probably have to play without sound. and as for the bones, imho the overly large bones and skulls in the necro town screen in homm3 were disturbing. it might have been better if the bones were appropriate sized, even if they were too tiny to be distinguished as bones. in the necro context this kind of white trash would be identified as bones anyway
Quote:
while in the cloud castle apears a titan that throws a lightining in the sky..for fun...
and the problem of repetitiveness might turn out with too large scale town animations. in the rampart town the flying dragons were rather small in the background and they didn't catch the eye too much, imho that's why they were so nice. but how would you do the same with lightning?

and.. my personal small suggestion would be to do the towns and buildings with less detail, like the buildings you usually see in medieval paintings (before baroque or probably before late renaissance). might save some designer work and i'm afraid the outcome might be better in the homm context if done right. i.e. i would say the undead castle in the screenshot was probably a lot of work going in the unnecessary (imho) or maybe even undesired (imho) direction of visual clutter instead of original style and atmosphere.
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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted April 28, 2003 04:03 PM

Creature System, and Life in Towns

Another aspect hinted to us through the first screenshot of Heroes V, which contained the Phoenix, was the perspective of the battlefield, and how the creature’s positioning on that screenshot (The Phoenix’s) could influence the designers at NWC to create the battlefield. The battlefield perspective has followed a similar path to that of the upgrade system, in that it has been altered throughout the course of the game, however not as much as the upgrade system has.

As we know, Kings Bounty had a very simple battlefield, only several hexes span the width, and even less cover the length. The battlefield was expanded in Heroes I, and it became more lifelike, but it still stayed in the same perspective. The Heroes I battlefield was then improved upon again in Heroes II, where it grew larger again, and again took another step forward graphically. The Heroes III battlefield, which many of us are familiar with, grew larger again, and added some more obstacles and life to the battlefield, as it wasn’t uncommon to see escarpments and trees mounted with rocks and boulders filling the battlefield.

Heroes IV, however, is the game that improved the battlefield immensely, and the perspective was changed from the horizontal standpoint to a isometric perception. This, in my opinion, is a great change, as it does indeed give the player the impression that he/she is actually commanding the troops and going into battle. It also allows the creatures to make any movement they want. By this I mean in Heroes III, when the creatures attacked, they would always turn around, attack, and then turn back. This wasn’t present in Heroes IV, and gratifyingly so.

It is possible that the Heroes V battlefield will be a hybrid of the other previous battlefield orientations, since the Phoenix doesn’t seem to fit perfectly in either of the two perspectives. I realise that fans do not like the Heroes IV battlefield because the backs of the creatures are always seen, but it does not matter in my mind, since they are bound to change direction throughout the course of combat. If we are to see anything in terms of Heroes V battlefield, I am hoping that it will be different, but also reminiscent of the older battlefields in some way. The versatility and control of the Heroes IV battlefield certainly ranks it the best in my books. Heroes V should be even better, following the trend.

GrunanCross:

“I would like there to be time involed in when you build. like building a Town hall mayhaps it should take a day or too..cause I think that would make it more life like,and then say a Dragon Cave would take 3 days”

While the idea is certainly commendable, like some other members pointed out, it probably isn’t suitable fir the Heroes Series, but for the Warcraft series instead. The major reason why I am against this is because ‘time’ isn’t a resource as such in Heroes games. Time is also associated as a factor with RTS games, while Heroes is a TBS game. You are correct in saying it will add realism, but in this case, I don’t believe it is what we need.

“you could dismantel it if you needed money or to build something else,but you,d only get back a portion of what it took!”

Again, the Heroes series isn’t the game to implement this praiseworthy idea unfortunately. It would be a good idea, however, I’m not sure that dismantling a dragon cave would go down too well. Also, the emphasis on choosing creatures to build is choosing, and therefore dismantling a structure would defeat the purpose of doing so.

Ziggurat:

“Want your post to be any longer? It was a good read though.”

I try my best.

“think its good because you got to choose every creature that was in the town.”

While it is quite beneficial towards the player that every creature is available, I believe that it detracts from the strategy of having to work your way through developing the town, and the choices you make affect the way in which you play through the map. For instance, if one wants to explore the map quickly, then you pick Black Dragons, but if one wants to horde resources and make a timed approach, then choose Hydras. The beauty of the Heroes IV engine is that the player chooses their own destiny, and there is no preset structure for them to follow, unlike Heroes III.

“That was a bad thing in Heroes 4, so I would not like to have Heroes 5 have only half the choices being built.”

I believe you are mistaken, 5/8ths of the choices. It may be perceived as a downfall to some, but a great design for others. I happen to be the ‘others’. While I do concede the Heroes IV system of creatures is not perfect, it is better than Heroes III. A part I missed from Heroes II are the upgrades. 5/8 creatures is still too little for my liking, and I would rather 9/12, because that is what I am aiming for. The merging of the Heroes II and IV upgrade systems. I have mentioned this before, but I will say it again: Quoting myself here:
“One decides on a creature for that level (like Heroes IV), and that creature may or may not have an upgrade. It would change for every level, for example, there must be one creature every level with an upgrade. This points to structure and freedom at the same time.”

“All you need to do is to increase the number of slots available in the army of a hero. So you can fit almost all of the monsters, upgraded and not upgraded into the same army.”

That is a possible solution, however, this would also encompass a clumsy formation on the battlefield, which could include 14 units per side, which in my opinion, clogs up the battlefield, and creatures would not be able to move freely. I believe this is why NWC kept the slots in Heroes III to 7 instead of 14.

“Also, why is the Heroes 3 upgrade system too structured? Its fine, and its a known fact that Heroes 3 is the most loved of the Heroes games. It is also my favorite, and I think that many people will agree with me about that.”

It is too structured because it does not allow the freedom in development that Heroes IV does. The Heroes IV system allows you to choose which creature you would like to have, while in Heroes III, NWC has chosen for you. So, in Heroes III it is impossible to decide which creature you would like to take to travel, as there is no choice. Having no choices on which creature you would prefer in your army is too structured for my liking. At least in Heroes II, it was semi-random, as not all creatures had upgrades.

It may be very well loved among the other members of the community, but for me, it is the worst (for its time) game in the Heroes Series. Heroes II or IV being the best. I’m really not sure why Heroes III is the worst for me, it could be a number of reasons, but it just didn’t click as well as Kings Bounty to Heroes IV.

“The main reason for the storyline always going in the way of the "Good" side is because it's a part of the Heroes story”

You are most likely correct in this case, but I think it may need some variety once in a while, so the evil side should win at least one game storyline, not just an expansion.

“Again, this is what Heroes 3 had, and it was a better game because of these things.”

That is true, and it was probably a better game because of them. So, in this case, I would like to see Heroes V adopt the Heroes III method, but also make some improvements upon them, maybe in the ways that Nasty has talked about.

“There need to be as many of those unique buildings in heroes5 as in heroess 3. Like the cage of warlords in fortress, some of those buildings only a kind of town had.”

Yes, quite true here. I must re-iterate this wish, there need to be more town exclusive structures in Heroes V. Christian has mentioned that the towns will be more unique, and not centred around a type of magic similar to what they were in Heroes IV. This, in my mind, is certainly a positive outcome. While magic is important, it partially derailed the might segment in Heroes of Might and Magic. It is going to be interesting to see what they are in fact based upon.

Zordrac:

“I would like for them to delay the release of Heroes 5.”

I wouldn’t want them to delay the release of Heroes V. (I know what you’re saying here) I would like NWC to prolong the development of Heroes V so they can produce a superior game, and not having to iron out the bugs in a record number of patches. I agree with you here.

“I spent ages on Heroes 2, and Heroes 1, as there were big gaps between their release dates.”

Heroes II was released a long time after Heroes I???? According to Gamespot, Heroes I was released on the 31st of August, 1995. Again, according to Gamespot, Heroes II was released on the 31st of October, 1996. Now, if you call this a big gap compared to the release date gap of Heroes III to Heroes IV, which was 3 years and 1 month, what is a small gap? Maybe because Heroes I was so easy that it seemed like a long time?

Uhh_yawn:

“ive beaten all of them....... heroes three was too easy.”

All of Heroes III? Including the expansions? Every map and every campaign? I would like to say I’ve done it, but I haven’t. Maybe you mean just the campaigns,  because as Zordrac rightly pointed out, Heroes I was indeed much easier than Heroes III.

Nasty:

“think about the haven...seeing cavaliers justing...and crusaders trainig...as well the crossbowmen while upstairs the angels look upon the humans....”

It would be a lovely scene wouldn’t it. The Heroes II illustration of the training grounds (Cavalier dwelling) showed a clear area, and there could just as easily have been two or three cavaliers there, riding around the oblong. I’m not sure how much effort it would take for NWC to accomplish such a task, but if they could make it as good as Heroes III, or maybe just a bit better, I would be immensely happy, for that aspect of Heroes anyway.

“there was life and that sight made it my favorite castle”

Unfortunately, the person who created this town decided to stay in NWC’s old premises, (I believe Redwood) instead of moving to Solvang in California with the rest of the team, like Christian did. She was an Asian, and that’s why it looks quite oriental compared to the other towns, lets hope other team members follow her lead in the drawing of towns. (By this I mean the life, not all the towns becoming oriental )

“the castle screen should be bigger...cause seeing those mages run around their towers...should be easy...but there are many creatures...imagine seeing the titans...in the same screen”

Well, I’m not sure how they can make the screen ‘bigger’ as such, but a way to resolve this predicament is to again revert to the Heroes III Rampart town. The way it was accomplished then (Having Dwarves and Gold Dragons in the same screen) was to have the Dragon Cliffs at the back of the town, giving the impression that they were far away, while the dwarves were up close, and so it was not too much trouble.

“But there should be different levels of life...for example there are douzens of mages..but only a few titans”

Yes, this is what I had mentioned in my previous post. It would be quite obscure to look at a bevy of Titans and only a few mages. So I agree with you on this point.

Gerdash:

“hope there will be no screaming in the undead town, otherways i would probably have to play without sound.”

Hehe, yes I would agree. The haunting sound and music of the Heroes III Necropolis suited the town perfectly in my opinion, and a similar rendition should be utilised for Heroes V. I agree that the town should not have bones making up its structure. (We know already that it won’t from the screenshot) Not because it would be disturbing, but instead because I don’t think that they would actually build it out of bones. However, I would vouch for the Bone/Ghost dragon dwelling being made out of bones. Possibly the skeleton dwelling having some bones scattered from the excavation also.

“and the problem of repetitiveness might turn out with too large scale town animations.”

This is a possibility, however I think the changes can be made subtly enough that they won’t become an eyesore and a large superfluous figure in the towns animation. However, it is certainly a realistic threat if NWC doesn’t implement this feature (if it is included) with care.

“towns and buildings with less detail, like the buildings you usually see in medieval paintings”

This could indeed work well, good idea Gerdash. However, it really may depend on what town these structures are for. The Chaotic town I believe would not entail these type of buildings, instead, something akin to the Order town may involve these structures. This is due to the fact that all the towns in Heroes V will have their own unique theme, and thus not all adhering to the same rules.

“i would say the undead castle in the screenshot was probably a lot of work going in the unnecessary (imho) or maybe even undesired (imho) direction of visual clutter instead of original style and atmosphere.”

That’s maybe the second or third negative viewpoint I’ve ever seen about the death town. Surprised me a bit, actually. I believe it is done quite well, as you say, it is your opinion, and it may look a bit cluttered to you. Although, in my opinion, I think that some great detail was placed into the town to make it unique and realistically concurrent with what maybe Necromancers would have actually built. Having said that, it is entirely possible that it may not work too well in the real life context of the game, since that is the only structure we’ve had the privilege of viewing.

It is very encouraging to see escalating interest in this topic. It should rise even more after some more information concerning Heroes V is released.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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mklthrkngl
mklthrkngl


Known Hero
posted April 28, 2003 08:24 PM

types o critters?

I personaly would love to see more depth in the towns. I agree that all creatures should be available, but why not have those creatures follow a variable development path? You build your first level peasent, as you gain the resources and needed improvements in the town you can then upgrade them to, and then at this point you make a choice, to maybe an infantry unit or an archery unit? Then you could have maybe a third choice down the line to some form of elite class, maybe a multiple shooter who is great at mowing down troops in the field or a fire arrow archer who can inflict damage to walls and fortifications in a siege. The towns could have more power ups for troops as well, such as armourers who upgarde troops armour or trainig facilities that upgrade troops fighting skills. The mage guild should not be a random affair, Players should have the choice to research whatever spells they want as long as they gather the needed resources and build the right town structures. Maybe your mage could even take part, they would have to gain the right skills at the needed levels and then they would have to go to the actual guild in the town to research the spell! I think homm4 was actually step backwards in some areas and a step forward in others. The towns need to be made into a larger part of the game, there needs to be more advantage to developing your town and resources. Right now on too many maps you quickly build a super barby and run over and wack the other guy.


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