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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Heroes V: A New Beginning
Thread: Heroes V: A New Beginning This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT»
Gerdash
Gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted May 11, 2003 05:40 PM
Edited By: Gerdash on 11 May 2003

about larger towns in adventure map view:

the way i would understand it, the villages and cabbins and cots and hovels and huts etc are there around the castle, you just cannot see them. just as if they had been disabled from the adventure map view by an option.

it's just like the artist didn't want to clutter his drawing with trash created by the rabble, or the cartographer just wanted to draw only the most important landmarks.

this "theory" agrees with the town view. there is castle and there are creature dwellings around it. it's just that all this system of buildings is represented on the map by the castle because the castle is the most monumental among those buildings and also, the buildings belong to the castle.

and it also feels natural. if a traveller wants to find a hydra named kjsahf, another thaveller would tell him: he lives in the swamp near the ajkfkjf castle.

and as a conclusion, i would rather like the adventure map to look more like a map than a photograph taken from a satellite.
disclaimer (lol): i am not saying it should be literally a map and nothing more, e.g. the creature icons etc on the adventure map being a little bit animated is a nice enhancement imho. i would rather say that i would appreciate it if the satellite photograph style was avoided.

about creatures regenerating at absurd rates:

imagine there is a huge population in the territory. and similar to how diplomacy works (a number of creatures in an independent monster stack offers to yoin), some of this population becomes available to recruiting every week.

now when you recruit all available creatures, the town doesn't become lifeless at all, in fact the change to the population is quite insignificant.

and when you recruited all creatures in the "dwelling" last week, you would have a good reason to expect the same number of creatures next week.

well, otherways you would probably have to think that zero creatures suddenly multiplied into e.g. 5 in one week. and if you had e.g. 100 creatures waiting to be recruited, those 100 creatures would still produce an offspring of 5 in one week. even if the idea of ultra fast propagation was a mythologically correct special ability of the creature, i guess you would still have great difficulty in making ends meet here.

imho the only creature dwelling that could utilize this "propagation model" (lol) would be the golem factory, because it's not golems that you need to produce more golems (considering that golems are not doing the censored thing in a place called 'golem factory'). nevertheless, there should be some unseen proletarians working in the factory producing golems.

contradictions:

now, imho a good user interface should intuitively lead to correct conclusions about the reasoning behind it.

in homm2, in the town screen, there's the hydra swamp outside the warlock castle. in the adventure map, you can see all the dwellings surrounded by the castle wall.

maybe the dwellings were outside the castle in the town view just because it would have been too difficult to draw them inside the castle?

but how would you imagine something as large as a swamp inside a castle? in homm3, you cannot see the town dwellings in the adventure map view anymore, though.

and about the creature dwellings and recruiting: if the creature "dwelling" was just a recruiting place, you could just announce the recruitment in the marketplace and set the gathering point e.g. in front of the castle.

but making an investment to build a creature dwelling (or whatever it should be called) is imho an important part of gameplay. if we want to go nitpicking at making everything feel logical and natural (which might not be a bad thing if done in a reasonable way), imho we might have to reconsider the meaning of the building that lets us recruit a certain type of creatures. is it a training place (e.g. a powerful temple that enables some apprentices achieve the level of power needed to become a devil), a gathering place, something analogous to an embassy (i guess i don't know the appropriate word), or something else?

========
i'm not pretending to come up with a final solution, i am just a human, and pointing out a possible way to interpret some game mechanics is as far as i am willing to get today (actually i was intending to write about something else, but i guess those things will have to wait). and i am also a little bit out of creative ideas atm.
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Magus
Magus


Hired Hero
Warper of Time-Space
posted May 11, 2003 07:11 PM

HyDrA-
"Well, no they couldn’t bring down a gate by themselves, and they wouldn’t deal as much damage as a hand-to-hand opponent (Thus ¼) but repeated attacking of the gate would force it to collapse after a while. So I believe ¼ to the gate by ranged attackers is entirely justified. Are you sure swarms of arrows won’t bring down a gate?"
Well as I said, only ranged creatures with certain special abilities could damage gates/walls. Mere arrows(or looks from medusas), wouldnt bring one down through force unless they struck critical components(like ropes to keep the drawbridge up.)
"In all honesty, I believe that the current system works very well as it is. Also, I don’t see what benefit having a small number of creatures instead of one representing the stack of creatures."
Just a graphical idea, make the armies seem larger. But your right, the current system works fine and this should not be high priority by NWC
On Armour: Armor is incredibly rare to correspond to its power. BD may have 2-3, spells may give plus 1. No creature should be completely immune to damage from any creature.(I think your more worried about creatures with 10+ Armour, making 1st and 2nd, maybe 3rd levels useless against it)
The Fort walls for villages I meant to be set by user, but now that i think about it they probably shouldnt have them. Of course villages can be flagged. Hamlets can be flagged the structure they're imitating can b flagged.
____________
So was the land riven by Chaos and Destruction, and so it was cleansed from existence. I did this, the Magus of Ly'kail, Magus of the Sylvan Kingdoms.

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Gerdash
Gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted May 11, 2003 07:35 PM
Edited By: Gerdash on 11 May 2003

and.. about this confusion with armor.. i did mean defense. i meant it like attacking an elephant or a whale with fists. you can kill a human with fists, but a sufficiently large animal would just absorb the hits with its skin and fat and get no damage. the same thing should be with dragons that have natural armor (that's when i slipped to the word 'armor' instead of 'defense'). i did mean it as a stat, and imho the black dragon and some others should have it.

if it's too strong, maybe you could make it absorb e.g. 0..5 damage from every creature, but i really think luck difference giving a chance to bypass that type of defense completely would be a better idea. e.g. you attack a dragon with 100 imps, one of them gets lucky and gets a hit in (and becomes hero). of course this was just an example, the idea having this kind of defense is to discourage people from attacking dragons with imps (or skeletons), but pick stronger creatures for that task instead.

anyway, it's no big deal, just another of those numerous special abilities that may cause some changes to the course of a battle. could be a useful special ability of the gate, that's why i brought it up at all.

========
disclaimer: when i said 'becomes a hero' i didn't mean the type of a hero that you can recruit in the tavern. i ment it more like 'the other imps would cheer at his achievement' etc. of course you cannot see it on the screen, you just have to use your imagination.
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Lordskeleton
Lordskeleton


Adventuring Hero
The really REALLY bad guy
posted May 11, 2003 10:26 PM

We who play warhammer fully understand what you mean. An armor saving throw to see whether the unit is able to cause any damage at all before damage is calculated.

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Magus
Magus


Hired Hero
Warper of Time-Space
posted May 12, 2003 09:36 PM

Or he could mean the Starcraft-Warcraft version, just subtract X from damage. (i.e. an attack does 20, target has 5 armor, attack does 15)
____________
So was the land riven by Chaos and Destruction, and so it was cleansed from existence. I did this, the Magus of Ly'kail, Magus of the Sylvan Kingdoms.

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Gerdash
Gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted May 12, 2003 09:56 PM
Edited By: Gerdash on 12 May 2003

lmao, i sort of.. meant both at the same time.

luck would determine (somewhat like in warhammer, but getting lucky would be more rare) if the armor is subtracted (like in starcraft) or not.

so.. i have proven my ability not to make myself clear when i try to explain something to others.

========
ok, this probably wasn't a very nice joke.

luck would determine (somewhat like in warhammer, but getting lucky would be more rare) if the armor is subtracted or not.

luck would determine if the armor is subtracted (like in starcraft) or not.

lol, now that should be better?
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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted May 13, 2003 11:46 AM

Other 'New Beginnings'

We can see by the most recent screenshots, which are a couple of months, but the most recent information we have, that the adventure map graphics won't be too much different from the ones we are used to seeing in Heroes IV. Also, as we've had a chance to lay eyes on the Necropolis Castle, it is larger than its Heroes IV predecessor, but not by a huge amount. This may suggest that other structures may be more or less of the same size. However, I may be mistaken and the heroes could be very small, and the mountains, as large and sometimes larger than the castle, this would, in my opinion, give it a very realistic, and possibly beneficial view perspective.

As I have mentioned before there must be something to bridge the gap between castles and garrisons, two structures of that hold a claim to different levels of importance. Again, I have suggested something altering from my last idea:
A ‘Warlock Village’ is a smaller Warlock fort that cannot be upgraded into one, and it would have a different adventure map representation than a Warlock Fort. This is quite similar to the un-upgradable Warlock Tents in Heroes II where you could not buy anything. Each town would have their own individual settlement, supplying creatures that are not available in the town (e.g. pirate, troglodyte, evil eyes) 1 resource per week of their most needed one (like resource pile) and it would contain a miniature version of a tavern, which would supply a maximum of 5 heroes. A thieves guild would also be present, but it wouldn't be as advanced as a castle’s version, for the village version would provide a Heroes II style thieves guild, with about 1/2 the information. Again, I would like your opinions on that slighlty expanded version of my older idea.

Gerdash I:

Adventure Map Perspective

"the villages and cabbins and cots and hovels and huts etc are there around the castle, you just cannot see them. just as if they had been disabled from the adventure map view by an option."

Well, I would see it in that fashion, however it is not the way I would like it to appear. Instead, I would like to have the structures seen within the castle, as in the Heroes II adventure map view of the castle. However, that is a dream that will not be realised in Heroes V, for we have seen the finalised version of the Necropolis Town.

You could be correct in saying that it could be too crowded, although I believe it is the way the artists integrate the structures into the landscape that will ultimately decide if it fits or not. Just to contradict you saying "the cartographer would only want to map the most important places" Wouldn't you consider the town structures as important? I would. But ultimately you would be correct, since there probably isn't enough space.

Indeed you theory does agree with the town view. But we could broach the question of where do the rest of the structures go? In theory, the castle on the adventure map would only be a fraction of the town view. It may be a difficult decision concerning how to depict the castle, but they have most likely chosen the correct way. (At least correct in relevance). As an alternative, though, the castle on the adventure map could just be a miniature version of the town view, however it may not work too well.

On your conclusion, I would agree with you. I long to see the hero actually moving through a life-like environment, not static objects just filling a space, like it is now. True landscape, with cliffs and hills (it was a start in Heroes IV) with quite real effects. Bar weather. (Talk about that in Grythandril's thread, not mine.)

Creature Regeneration Surrealism

"some of this population becomes available to recruiting every week."

Why wouldn't nearly all of the population become available to you for recruiting? It would seem logical that all of the population, bar 4 or 6 are able to be recruited. It is just an assumption you are making, I see. If this were to be right, then I would still see a significant change. However I don't really mind if it is inaccurate in displaying the true amount of creatures in the castle. For example, when the Hydras are unrecruited, there are 6 moving around, one recruited, there are 2, and in the middle of the process, there are 4. In reality, there may be 2, 1, and 0.

"100 creatures waiting to be recruited, those 100 creatures would still produce an offspring of 5 in one week."

So you are saying that no matter the amount of creatures, the same will be created the next week. I am generally for realism, but in this case I am not, I am with you on this topic. Generally, if you have more creatures being unrecruited (in RL) the more that can reproduce and thus more creatures for the next week. But in this case (the Heroes case) it doesn't occur, and I am content to keep it this way.

"would be the golem factory, because it's not golems that you need to produce more golems (considering that golems are not doing the censored thing in a place called 'golem factory')."

LOL. Haha, yes, one would presume they don't possess the right apparatus to execute such a maneouvre. The only way it would change would be if there weren't enough (or too many) of these alchemists to make the golems. Maybe instead of the numbers increasing, the number of people increase so they can construct the golems more rapidly.

Contradictions:

"maybe the dwellings were outside the castle in the town view just because it would have been too difficult to draw them inside the castle?"

The way I see it is the camera 'view (our perspective)' is theoretically situated on the outer wall. Thus we cannot see it when we are in the town view, and still see it on the larger adventure map view. The reason I believe this is the castle in the town view doesn't have the walls around it, and they couldn't have magically appeared. Also it would have been difficult to incorporate the wall in the town view, so they omitted it.

"but how would you imagine something as large as a swamp inside a castle?"

I can imagine it inside the castle walls, though. The castle itself is not that big, and the swamp, as I remember it, is in the distance on the left side of the castle. It seems as though it is far away. It is therefore feasible to execute this task. The same could be said about the 'cloud castle'

Concerning the place of recruitment of creatures, I believe the way in which it functions now is sufficient to our needs. I see no need for a general place unless it affects every creature. I believe that a general place could be utilised as a place where all creatures travel to get a bonus to one of their skills, but I don't believe that happens. (And shouldn't for it would defeat the Heroes method that functions well).

Magus

"Mere arrows(or looks from medusas), wouldnt bring one down through force"

Well, I'm not sure about that, because there is something in their gaze that has an effect on their opponents. The gate could turn to stone, and when the next creature attacks it, the damage from the medusa, and its own attack is counted.

"The Fort walls for villages I meant to be set by user, but now that i think about it they probably shouldnt have them."

Yes, they shouldn't have them altogether since it would be giving the area too much of a tactical advantage, and a her or army could take refuge there instead of returning to their castle, because they know there is still an amount of protection there.

Gerdash II:

"but a sufficiently large animal would just absorb the hits with its skin and fat and get no damage."

I believe that this idea is just too realistic for a fantasy game for the Heroes Series. I understand it could work, but I don't believe it would benefit the game in any great deal except for add realism.

"this kind of defense is to discourage people from attacking dragons with imps (or skeletons), but pick stronger creatures for that task instead."

This is a good point, however I don't think that it will deter it much from what it already is. I wouldn't go in with imps to attack a Black Dragon, since I know the imps would lose more, and their attack could go towards a more worthy cause, such as other level 1 creatures.

Once again, thanks, and I am very much enjoying reading your ideas and thoughts on Heroes V.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Gerdash
Gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted May 13, 2003 04:25 PM

map and recruitment

if the news about adventure map staying the same or something similar to homm4, i must say i am very disappointed.

but first, as there might be people who might not be extremely familiar with medieval maps, some illustration (the part in italics is somewhat irrelevant or redundant in the context of this topic, but i thought there might be something else that might be interesting to look at).

a clearly drawn medieval map that illustrates the point of entire nations represented by a single castle well, otherways nothing much to look at:
http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/EMwebpages/201C.html

another map (detail), similar to the previous one, but has some creatures on it, and similarity with homm adventure map is quite obvious:
http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/EMwebpages/226D.html
another a bit more colorful detail of the same map. 'This is the home of the dreaded man-eaters Gog and Magog, symbols of all the hordes of oppressors that might at any time overwhelm peaceful humanity. The castellated lines indicate the walls that Alexander the Great was reputed to have built here for extra protection' is what might make this one interesting:
http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/EMwebpages/224B.html
and the whole map, reputedly the largest and most sophisticated medieval map, for those who might be interested in the scope of this work, otherways not directly to the topic:
http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/EMwebpages/224.html


and now, the most important find, imho:
http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/EMwebpages/205K.html

it is exceptional in the sense that it does have larger towns that many people are supporting here. if the homm adventure map would be that good, i wouldn't really mind the difference from the general medieval mapmaking tradition, especially because the towns seem to be in good harmony with the surroundings. the landscape (the forest, the mountains, the grassland and the towns) in this picture is just superb, and the proportions of the mountains and trees are not realistic, but imho extremely fitting nevertheless. if this style was directly copied into homm, i would say 'wow' without any sarcasm.

========
hydra:
i guess there might be a small misunderstanding. it would be nice to clarify a little bit.
'Just to contradict you saying "the cartographer would only want to map the most important places" Wouldn't you consider the town structures as important? I would. But ultimately you would be correct, since there probably isn't enough space.'
i would rather say we have evidence that the medieval cartographers generally did't include the town structures nor villages on their maps. and the last nice and colorful map example (although it looked extremely fitting in the homm context) didn't imho look like a real map in the classical sense. my point was not that i don't consider the town structures important, it was that the medieval cartographers didn't consider the structures important, and this is what i said.

and another statement that looks like a potential misunderstanding:
'On your conclusion, I would agree with you. I long to see the hero actually moving through a life-like environment, not static objects just filling a space, like it is now. True landscape, with cliffs and hills (it was a start in Heroes IV) with quite real effects.'
i said:
'and as a conclusion, i would rather like the adventure map to look more like a map than a photograph taken from a satellite.'
the other (disclaimer) part just said that i still support creature animations on adventure map. a medieval map doesn't look like 'true landscape,' (a satellite photograph looks like a true landscape) so instead of saying 'agree with you,' it might have been more fitting to say 'i disagree with you,' at least the way i understood your point about the adventure map looking more like 'true landscape.'

and another misunderstanding:
'"100 creatures waiting to be recruited, those 100 creatures would still produce an offspring of 5 in one week."
So you are saying that no matter the amount of creatures, the same will be created the next week. I am generally for realism, but in this case I am not, I am with you on this topic. Generally, if you have more creatures being unrecruited (in RL) the more that can reproduce and thus more creatures for the next week. But in this case (the Heroes case) it doesn't occur, and I am content to keep it this way.'
no, i was saying the exact opposite. i was saying that 0 creatures (waiting to be recruited) producing an offspring 5 creatures per week and 100 creatures (waiting to be recruited) producing an offspring of 5 creatures per week is absurd. assuming there is a large "unseen" population and 5 creatures is what you you can train (or something like that) per week is not absurd. in the not absurd case there is no serious effect on the "unseen" population, there is always a steady supply of creatures, and the constant recruitment capability of the "dwelling" is what determines how many new creatures are available each week, rather than the propagation model of the population.

'Why wouldn't nearly all of the population become available to you for recruiting? It would seem logical that all of the population, bar 4 or 6 are able to be recruited. It is just an assumption you are making, I see.'
let's assume you announce that you need 1000 workers as soon as possible. even if 1,000,000 people live nearby, i doubt you can do the paperwork and training and the safety regulations thing in half an hour in one small office. if only 10,000 people live nearby, it is likely that you cannot get 1000 workers to work fo you, even if you are given sufficient time to employ them. so, if you are saying that 'It would seem logical that all of the population, bar 4 or 6 are able to be recruited,' i would have to disagree, imho it would be illogical. and when we look at medieval history, e.g. the crusaders, we will clearly see that the cases when all the population went to conquest with their king were rare, and maybe even nonexistent. maybe some desperate barbarians or nomads went to war with a large part of their population in medival times. maybe your statement comes from some kind of computer game logic, though: recruit all the population in five minutes and go to a battle and get them all killed fast. in this case we expect very different kind of entertainment from homm.

========
so, the misunderstandings on this topic should be cleared up now, unless i missed something. of course it is nice to have some people who agree with me, but i don't mind if people disagree, especially if the different views are understood.
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whinie_the_b...
whinie_the_behemoth


Adventuring Hero
grrrrr!
posted May 13, 2003 11:57 PM
Edited By: whinie_the_behemoth on 13 May 2003

hey there
i read some interesting suggestions and comments so far, about units, structures and suroundings. I think most of us agree that there is a need for a smaller kind of settlement, to complement the main town, which should help to place stuctures more evenly on the map. Whether it`s a village small town remains to be seen, the conversation is in good track nevertheless.

about the map:
I`m glad that some would like a more life-like envirinment. It doesn`t have to be completely realistic, but mountains and plains of the proper scale would make the map more alive. I would like a larger map area, it`s been small so far, and that`s the main reason why buildings and creatures on it are more like symbolic. Movement can be adjusted so it still takes the same time to go from A to B.

Hydra:

"Mountains do need to be bigger, but the structures can stay the same size that they are already...  ..more settlements that are of fair size, and smaller miscellaneous adventure map objects. I found it hard to believe that the Hydra Pond was so huge on the adventure map view, as big as a castle, and in the castle screen, it could fit very snugly into the town screen. A misapprehension of the perspectives, in my opinion. The dwellings need to be the size of a level 2 dwelling."

it`s about the relative size of things on the map: either buildings have to shrink, or landscape elements should grow, depending on what fits the screen best. But buildings themselves are out of scale, like the hydra pond as you mentioned. If there`s more space, then the buildings can be spread more on the map, especially towns.

" however it is not the way I would like it to appear. Instead, I would like to have the structures seen within the castle, as in the Heroes II adventure map view of the castle"

I agree with Hydra that they still need to be bigger, so instead of a small castle representing a town, a castle would indeed be surrounded by buildings making up the town. They can be dwellings and mines, all controlled by the castle. This matches the town screen more in my opinion, which could be a close up of such a view (maybe from a different angle). The castle itself now makes more sense, containing fewer buildings like the city hall and mage's guild. And because an image equals a thousand words, i tried to reproduce what im thinking. Those are a few pictures generated with the map editor. It`s my view of how the landscape could look like, plus how a town could be.
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/jesusc12/vwp2?.tok=bcs.ajRBndzqHvh8&.dir=/homm&.dnm=town.jpg&.src=ph
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/jesusc12/vwp2?.tok=bcs.ajRB0vJZupAH&.dir=/homm&.dnm=mines.jpg&.src=ph


Note that the castle is on an elevated location like it should be. There are no walls containing the rest of the settlement (too tricky to place) but to control it someone needs to conquer the castle first.

Magus

"Towns-As we all know and love
Villages-"Mini Town" Idea, mapmaker can set income in gold and resources, creature rate(if applicable, can have more than one type of creatures), defense(do they get fort walls or not?), and specials(like bonuses to the first player who takes it, morale or luck bonuses, etc.)
Hamlets-Adventure map object/structures. Can be set to act like any other existing structure with custom messages."

Hydra

"Such as the ‘Warlock Village’ is a smaller Warlock fort that cannot be upgraded into one, and it would have a different adventure map representation than a Warlock Fort. Each town would have their own individual settlement, supplying creatures that are not available in the town (e.g. pirate, troglodyte, evil eyes) 1 resource per week of their most needed one (like resource pile) and it contains a miniature version of a tavern (to supply heroes) and thieves guild (not as advanced as a castle’s version)"

I quite like your ideas That`s basically what i meant by separating towns into 2 kinds: normal towns as we know them and scaled down versions, pretty much as you 2 describe the minitown or warlock village. They can maybe provide a garisson too (small fort), but with fewer defending advantages. Like you said, make them worth a visit. There would be very few towns and more villages on a map. I also like the idea of custom hamlets, providing a bonus, some resource, a quest etc etc. They can maybe coexist with towns and villages on a map, with various dwellings gathered around them.

Gerdash:

"the way i would understand it, the villages and cabbins and cots and hovels and huts etc are there around the castle, you just cannot see them. just as if they had been disabled from the adventure map view by an option..  ..it's just like the artist didn't want to clutter his drawing with trash created by the rabble, or the cartographer just wanted to draw only the most important landmarks..  ..and as a conclusion, i would rather like the adventure map to look more like a map than a photograph taken from a satellite."

and Hydra:

"I long to see the hero actually moving through a life-like environment, not static objects just filling a space, like it is now. True landscape, with cliffs and hills (it was a start in Heroes IV) with quite real effects."

I might dissapoint you with "my satellite photo" screenshots gerdash though I`m not against a more abstract approach to depict the surroundings, it might work as well. I think the point is to make the surroundings more "alive" and airy, if this is what hydra means by
life-like, not necessarilly 100% realistic (which i wouldn`t mind). It can be done either way. Doing it in an abstract way mind you, will require more skill from the artist.

about mountains, trees and passability:

Hydra:

"Passable trees (forests)? - yes. Passable mountains? Probably not. The only way I can see passable mountains happening is only if the is a cave in it, and that would be considered as an adventure map object, not a landscape object. I would like to see the mountains remain as
a barrier. Concerning trees, I think it depends on how the trees are laid out..       ..a dense forest would be impassable. And having scattered forests would add to strategy, because it may be the only way to go, and it may uncover secrets that couldn’t have been found if you stuck to the road. ‘The Road to Losing’, in this case"

and Djive:

"Generally, I'd say. If a Map Maker places a tree or mountain obstacle then they DON'T Want that terrain to be PASSABLE. (Not by any means.) The Map maker really needs unpassable terrain to make single scenarios."

I suggested passable trees and mountains/hills (and i wasn`t the first one) as a way to enchance the feeling of exporing. Artifacts could be hidden, or creatures could be guarding shortcuts going through a mountain. Now Djive is right in that there needs to be some impassable terrain to create a scenario, and I by no means mean that all mountains should be passable. I just don`t like that you can only move on flat land, blocked by mountains that look
more like rocks. You could simply be able to move on smoother mountain slopes while steeper and rougher ones would provide the necessary impassable barries. The same goes for trees.
     I have again a couple of screenshots in order to describe what I`m thinking of. Actually there is an elevation tool in the map editor apart from the usual "mountain" object, that the map maker could use to make mountains. Then use a rocky surface tool to "paint" them impassable. For example assume that the light gray parts in my pictures are impassable, leaving only a path guarded by the harpies
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/jesusc12/vwp2?.tok=bcs.ajRB_si2yb4G&.dir=/homm&.dnm=harpies.jpg&.src=ph         or a path leading to the dragon cave
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/jesusc12/vwp2?.tok=bcs.ajRB02UmLAFZ&.dir=/homm&.dnm=dragoncave.jpg&.src=ph
.

about combat and the units:

Hydra and Djive:

"I think Real Time strategy should stay as far away as it can from turn-based strategy. This would just not work in a game like heroes. Stacks are imperative to regulate the numbers of creatures actually seen, and also for the battlefield method that is in place here to work.. ..the RTS idea causes a myriad of complications that would force the NWC team to totally revamp. Also, how would the classic Heroes battlefield work in a situation such as this? I vote for the ‘stacks’ method."  

I know this sounds like a dramatic change to some of you, but it`s not really. I should clarify a bit: Units would come in stacks until they fill all available slots in the army. The real difference is that you can see all units in a stack, moving in formation. The rest works the same, damage will be calculated as usual and the number of slots can be limited so the game will play the same. There are some complications like you have suggested: either the units will be too small on the screen or fewer in number: I vote for fewer, depending on their size: it will take more squires to fill the available space than dragons and so on. You could have a total of 30 nomads in your army, plus 2 heroes, but only 10 bone dragons(+ heroes). Split in no more than 7-8 groups, including the heroes. And in case you wonder "what on earth is he thinking of?" here`s a screenshot of what it could be like                   http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/jesusc12/vwp2?.tok=bcs.ajRB8I.fhR2J&.dir=/homm&.dnm=battle.jpg&.src=ph

 It`s quite different than what we`ve been used to, so I await your comments. Notice the archers taking up an elevated position (hope you can see it in the blurry pic).

A note: rts is much closer to turn based than you might think: the only difference is that you pause time so you can control your creatures individualy. You`d be surprised by how similar the rest of the modifiers are. But I agree that the difference in gameplay is huge.
Oh, and fallout is an isometric, turn based rpg game. They also made an rpg/strategy version called "fallout tactics".

"While changing creatures from stacks into individuals is possible, this change is a lot greater than the change of introducing heroes into the battlefield, and all the other
changes which occurred in H4 together. Besides, as you've mentioned. There ARE many other games with such a system while I believe the system used for Heroes is more or less unique to this game...   ...Sure, it's not realistic but the Heroes game is fantasy. Not a combat simulator."

I read your arguments with much interest. I have already noticed that most would prefer the usual combat system, units coming in stacks etc.. Actually I like how combat works in homm and it`s probably too late to change it anyway, however I still would like to see all the troops on the battlefield. To me, this conveys the scale of the battle in a better way, plus you can really see the number of creatures diminishing as they perish. It`s more about
conveying the emotion of battle than realism and I don`t think it matters that it`s already used elsewhere, as long as it nicely fits into the game.

More about units, growth rate etc:

I think the growth rate works well in the game. Maybe it shouldn`t be called growth though, as there is little proof in the game of any reproductive activity. It`s not much of a practical matter thou, it wouldn`t really affect the way the game plays. I would like less creatures if you ask me, but then I don`t really mind the way it is now.

Armor:

Again, i think it`s well implemented in the game: armour and skill are nicely represented by the defence skill, while hit points represent physical toughness. It would probably be too much of an advantage if armor became a separate modifier.

Upgrades:

Hydra:

"Thankfully, creatures don’t have experience points as such in Heroes. Also, the special abilities have to be intrinsic to that creature. In other words, I would like to see a pikeman have long range pike ability in one game, and double attack in another game"

Experience points could be evenly distributed to creatures, in the same way they do to heroes. Advanced creatures would need more xp's and there should probably be a limit, maybe just one or 2 level advancements. If that proves too complicated than an upgrade building could do the job just as well. Wether the creatures come in stacks or not doesn`t matter, the ones present in combat share xp's until they reach a limit in advancement. It should be an independant procedure and shouldn't interfere with the heroes' experience gain.

"Disagree here, all creatures must be unique, and have their own abilities without having to choose them. No offence here, but I would dislike it very much if the creatures chose their special abilities."

I`m a bit confused here: Your first sentence suggests you would like to see different

abilities on the same creature, but then you say you wouldn`t like them to pick one. I though a creature could start with a lesser ability and pick a more significat one when upgraded. 2-3 available abilities to pick, always characteristic of the creature. Is that what you mean by the pikeman example?

I`ll try to come up with new screenshots:  I suspect that if I make mountains of proper size, I will take an extra large map to fit what currently fits in a medium one. And I`m also curious about how much would fit on the screen at once.. Well, there`s only one way to know.

hope the vibe keeps up


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Gerdash
Gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted May 14, 2003 02:23 PM

Quote:
I might dissapoint you with "my satellite photo" screenshots gerdash though I`m not against a more abstract approach to depict the surroundings, it might work as well. I think the point is to make the surroundings more "alive" and airy, if this is what hydra means by life-like, not necessarilly 100% realistic (which i wouldn`t mind). It can be done either way. Doing it in an abstract way mind you, will require more skill from the artist.
true, i like to consider homm a virtual environment with a very spcial mythological atmosphere. inside that environmnt there should be a different way of thinking, we shouldn't know that earth is round and we shouldn't have seen a landscape from sufficieently high above, and we shouldn't be familiar with geometry enough to construct such a view.

just like we shouldn't know that all the earth has been sufficiently explored to prove that there is no place with a sufficiently large population of dragons to have a sufficiently large gene pool.

i wouldn't say i'm really disappointed about those screeenshots, rather they leave me totally unexcited (seen that kind of landscape in games before, and more than once or twice, btw). what would really disappoint me, would be the inclusion of the loch ness monster into the game. i am not keeping my hopes high about the future of homm anyway. nice quality pictures though, i have rarely seen something like that created just for illustrative purposes in this forum.

========
and the creature stacks:

i think i am with those who say that the creature stacks look nice as they are.

you could of course assign some value of space to a stack, and if this space is filled with creatures you would have to put the excess creatures into another stack.

or it might be evn better if the homm3 style heroes would be renamed generals and would not take so much part in battle, but they would command the leaders of the stacks. now the heroes would have a limit to how many leaders they can command, and the leades have a limit to how many creatures they can command.

the the number the leader can command might depend on creature character or creature level or leader level etc. or having more creatures in the stack might reduce morale (well, probably not the fear part of morale, but some other that affects the effectiveness of the stack, like motivation). or the leader might have some difficulties forwarding the commands of the general to an overly large stack.

a side note about creature or stack exp and special abilities: an alternative to the whole stack being upgraded, you might just store the exp value per stack, and this exp value would determine e.g. how many pikemen in the stack use their first strike ability and how many of them retaliate normally. this way you could transfer creeatures betweeen stacks without much trouble, as far as i understand. i.e. transferring the exp per creature with every creature.

i have been thinking about splitting and uniting stacks, transferring creatures between stacks, and even about stacks made up of many types of creatures. those things could work btw, but i doubt such features would be worth adding to homm, and i am very doubtful about supporting creature exp. to me it sounds like 'omg it would be so kewl' style of thing, and when it's implemented, it might be a disappointment. i even doubt adding the wait function in battle in homm3 was a good idea (i fully support the defend function, though).

about the battle screenshots i would of course again prefer the earlier medieval way of depicting a group of people, so that the warriors would be more close to each other, so that very little is seen of those who are behind the first line (e.g. head only), and only the tip of the hat is seen of most warriors in the group.

i just hope that the player isn't moving his thirty creatures in the army one by one, and if there are the same speed creatures in the opposing army, the situation could become even more horrible. this is the reason why i think we should have as many stacks as needed and as few stacks as possible.
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whinie_the_b...
whinie_the_behemoth


Adventuring Hero
grrrrr!
posted May 15, 2003 12:16 AM

I think a special part of heroes that makes the ambience so special is the vegetation. I haven`t seen so much green in a single game (except perhaps sim-gardener) and it makes it`s world look so natural. Creatures too, the maps are full of creatures and trees, making them special among other games. So while a view like in my screenshots might look bland, it could get very interesting indeed when it`s full of mythical creatures and vegetation, along with majestic mountains. Now there could be a medieval touch, things can be drawn in a weird perspective, but I think it should apply to the whole map, I don`t like it that now things are out of proportion. That`s what I tried to correct in my screenshots, merely a suggestion on style, as I used existing map objects.

About units, wether you would see all of them or not, they would move in stacks. No one would like to control dozens of independant units one by one in a turn-nased game!

Xp actually works well in disciples 2 and warlords battlecry. It makes you want to avoid casualties so you can keep your upgraded creatures.
I read the "leaders" thread and while it`s quite an interesting aproach, I think it creates another type of creatures in essence. I don`t know if it would make the battle system too complicated, though it is indeed more realistic, and maybe better than collecting xp`s for all your creatures.
In a 1993 strategy game called ufo, there was a turn based battle system. Soldiers earned xp`s and went up in rank. The same could happen with creatures. A creature in a stack could end up with more xp`s and that would make it a leader. How the xp`s would be distributed is a big question though. Another way to upgrade creatures would be to build 1 or 2 buildings, upgrading their stats, like a thieves gauntlet offers a bonus to heroes. Maybe more convenient than having a separate building for each type of creatures. Then only leaders of stacks woulp earn experience (that`s basically back to the leaders idea). I`m not sure about bying leaders as a separate crearure, maybe automaticly a creature in a stack will promote to a leader and start earning xp. And if you split the stack, another one will. Which means you have 2 leaders, and if you unite the 2 stacks again, the most experienced leader will affect the stats of the stack. I don`t really know if thaty causes too much micro managment though.

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Gerdash
Gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted May 15, 2003 09:53 AM

Quote:
I think a special part of heroes that makes the ambience so special is the vegetation.
true, and this is how proportions, passability of terrain (especially forest), town view, and maybe even the reasoning behind the creature dwellings is all interconnected imho.

========
as for size proportions, my personal preference would be using something like logarithmic transformation, effect would again be similar to many medival artworks.

what i mean by logarithmic transformation is that
length_on_screen=log(real_length)
well, it doesn't have to be base 10 logarithm, but a suitable base should be selected.
or it doesn't even have to be logarithm but might as well be another suitable function, e.g. some root of real_length or something.
the point would be that e.g. the mountains wouldn't be smaller than trees, but wouldn't be so large that one mountain fills the entire map that has 1 cm (or about 1/3 inch) trees on it.

also, in the case of the symbolic map (that i support most myself), there would be a nice possibility to scale different types of things in a different way. e.g. on the colorful world view thematic painting (http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/EMwebpages/205K.html) the landscape and cities are scaled differently than the humans.
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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted May 15, 2003 01:12 PM

Perspectives and Developments

The latest screenshot of a turn-based strategy game I've had the pleasure of viewing is one from the new 'Warlords' game (IV or something) which can be found on celestialheavens' main page or here alternatively. I would just like to take the time to draw some conclusions from this screenshot, and how it compares to Heroes IV, and for that matter, Heroes V.
After studying it quite closely, it appears that there are significant differences between the Warlords screenshot and the basic Heroes IV adventure map.
The first thing that hits me is the level of undulations and how well the mountains are integrated into the landscape. It does bring the same object of Heroes IV to shame, as it just sticks out of the ground, but these are in-tune with the landscape, and there are gradual escalations on the ground, then a mountain protrudes. They also look very nice in terms of artistry. Although the grass looks slightly surreal, and is sometimes difficult to distinguish between the land and the trees, it seems to project an adequate ‘grassy’ texture. The centrepiece of this screenshot, the castle is passably drawn, except it certainly does lack those medieval qualities of Heroes towns, and it is not of a high level of detail. The structures are quite commendable, except they don’t seem accessible, especially the larger of the two (which is also drawn more poorly than the smaller one). The mini-map is not of Heroes IV standard, and is slightly difficult to decode(maybe because I’ve never played the game). All points taken into account, I believe that it looks slightly nicer than Heroes IV, maybe it is because of the mountains, and I also need to relate other Warlords parts like sea, plains, etc. to Heroes IV.

Gerdash I

"if the news about adventure map staying the same or something similar to homm4, i must say i am very disappointed."

From what I can gather from the Heroes V screensshot of the Necropolis castle, the adventure map possesses much the same perspective as Heroes IV, because if you discount the castle's artistry, one could place a Heroes IV castle in its spot and it wouldn't look out of sorts. However, it is an early screenshot, and there wasn't much shown at all, therefore there could be time to change.

"http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/EMwebpages/205K.html"

I cannot deny that the artistry of this screenshot is first-class. As you say, the objects are very well integrated into the surroundings, and it does look quite good indeed. If it were copied straight into Heroes, I wouldn't like it that much. The only problem I see is the disproportionately sized trees and castles, (which I know have already been discussed) but I don't think it would fit too well into a (now) realistically orientated game. However, the integration of this picture is wonderful, and I would also like for that to be included in Heroes.

"(a satellite photograph looks like a true landscape) so instead of saying 'agree with you,' it might have been more fitting to say 'i disagree with you,' at least the way i understood your point about the adventure map looking more like 'true landscape.'"

Well, how I see it, a satellite photograph will not show many elevations and wouldn't reproduce the map truthfully. Instead I would like a medieval feel to it, like Heroes II certainly had, and Heroes IV was lacking, but also a sense of realism, in that not all objects are in the wrong proportion compared to others, so I agree with you to some extent, anyway.

"0 creatures (waiting to be recruited) producing an offspring 5 creatures per week and 100 creatures (waiting to be recruited) producing an offspring of 5 creatures per week is absurd."

In this case, one could make reference to my earlier reply to that statement. I don't believe all of the creatures would be recruited since then there won't be any left to reproduce, and I take it you believe that every creature in the dwelling is recruited. And that is where you source your problem from.
Having read the rest of your paragraph concerning the issue, I believe we are on the same playing field. It wouldn't matter how many are available, because (theoretically) the same number will always be left behind to produce more creatures. Having 100 creatures unrecruited won't change it since the structure's capacity to reproduce is only 5.

"recruit all the population in five minutes and go to a battle and get them all killed fast. in this case we expect very different kind of entertainment from homm."

I believe you have misunderstood me on this one. I am stating that, if there were say 6 Hydras in the dwelling (not available), there would only be 4 available at maximum, since the remaining two would need to stay for reproduction. Thus this is not the recruit all creatures and go mentality, and by saying this I am in turn agreeing with the statement you had made about all the crusaders not going out with their army.

Whinie_the_behemoth I

“It doesn`t have to be completely realistic, but mountains and plains of the proper scale would make the map more alive.”

Indeed, this is what I had in mind here. Not entirely realistic, but nothing too inconsistent, with mountains integrated into the landscape, and trees not being taller than mountains, etc. I would also like more movement. This was displayed in Heroes IV by the birds moving, and animals on the landscape.

“either buildings have to shrink, or landscape elements should grow, depending on what fits the screen best.”

Out of those two suggestions, I would say the former, bar the castles. The castles need to be of a fair size, since they are in actuality, quite large. If the landscape elements were to increase, it is possible that the size of a Heroes V XL map could be the size of a medium Heroes IV map. This is because they may have to compensate for the sheer size of the mountains, and thus make things smaller elsewhere (like the map size).

“They can be dwellings and mines, all controlled by the castle.”

I would agree with your views, except that mines aren’t found in castles. Undeniably, the towns need to show more on the adventure map than just the town. Gerdash has made a point here about the structures not being important. It seems as though they were important enough in Heroes II, why not now? It appears, however, that this wish is already too late, since we have been given an appetiser on how towns will look, and unfortunately, it is not the way you and I are suggesting.

Your screenshot there seems quite OK, but if it were to be that big in Heroes V, it is certainly too big, instead, the structures should be made smaller on the adventure map to give a true representation of their sizes, so a Hydra Pond dwelling on the adventure map would look bigger than a Hydra Pond dwelling shown in the town.

“That`s basically what i meant by separating towns into 2 kinds: normal towns as we know them and scaled down versions, pretty much as you 2 describe the minitown or warlock village.”

Thanks. As an addition to the idea (really it is a subtraction) I would like it if the Warlock Village or the Barbarian Den or the Necropolis Cemetery couldn’t be upgraded into a fort, so they are entirely separate and cannot be related to each other in any way. The reason for these new ‘smaller towns’ is to separate them from the larger ones. Just thought I needed to clear that point up.

“Then use a rocky surface tool to "paint" them impassable. For example assume that the light gray parts in my pictures are impassable, leaving only a path guarded by the harpies”

This idea is quite intriguing, since I don’t believe anyone has thought of this in my 1 ½ years of dwelling in the community. The ‘impassable-painter’ sounds commendable, and one could choose many different types of surfaces for the mountains, as well as existing terrains (however the latter may lead to some confusion). The only potential problem I foresee is the mountains become too large, like in your custom made screenshot, since the mountains are huge compared to the other creatures. They need to be bigger, but not to that extent.
You also convey the message of the passibility on mountains quite well. However, I believe the same thing can be attained in a Heroes IV map editor if you turn on the map passibility, because it is such a useful tool in arranging objects.

“The real difference is that you can see all units in a stack, moving in formation.”

Yes, I had accepted that that was indeed the most pivotal change. And, after viewing your home-made screenshot, I was further disgusted by the amalgamation of a TBS game like Heroes into a RTS game like AOE. It does certainly not suit the game, and it would alter the map-making processes of the Heroes fanatic. It would mean that all areas would have to be wider, or else the units would have to navigate through a thin line, stretching long distances. Heroes of Might and Magic is a game where single stacks roam the battlefield, and go conquest almost alone, maybe another 2-3 heroes would aid them. Also, if all units were split up, they could go demolishing armies at will, and exploring the adventure map within a few turns. Think of it, 26 bandits, all split up on the first day. 3 days later, bam, map is explored. Plus it would be too tedious controlling the creatures in this fashion. As one can tell, I’m very pro-TBS.

“I`m a bit confused here: Your first sentence suggests you would like to see different”

Extremely sorry, the sentence should read: “In other words, I would’nt like to see a pikeman have long range pike ability in one game, and double attack in another game.”
I really don’t like the idea of random specialties, because unique specialties are aspects that define the creatures, and also determine our choices for which creatures to pick in the creature system. Imagine in one game, it was Hydras Vs. Black Dragons (I’d always pick Hydras but let’s discount that), I picked a Hydra, only to find it has first strike instead of attack all adjacent enemy units. Then the Black Dragon has attack all adjacent enemy units. It is too random and non-structured for me, and probably the game, in my opinion.

It has been very interesting viewing your interpretations through visual projections. Gives me (us) quite a good idea of what you are exactly trying to convey.

Gerdash II:

“what would really disappoint me, would be the inclusion of the loch ness monster into the game. i am not keeping my hopes high about the future of homm anyway.”

LOL at the first sentence, however, you second is quite a serious issue. You are not keeping your hopes high about the future of the Heroes Series? Aren’t you trying to do your best now to help them create a superior game? Is it because the development team is quite small compared to other games, or hasn’t the current information been promising? Anyway, whatever your problem is, please tell, since I find it quite curious.

“i think i am with those who say that the creature stacks look nice as they are.”

And I believe you are wrong. I also believe that the stacks have been accomplished laudably, and contribute to the uniqueness of the game, another reason why we shouldn’t employ the RTS version of stacks. They are fine as they are now. (And ever have been)

I agree with you that experience is not so ‘kewl’ on creatures, and would indeed be a disappointment. Instead, the medals idea could be a worthy substitute if it ever were to be implemented into the game. I disagree though, on having different types of creatures in the same stack, I think the same creatures should be consistent in the stacks the whole way through, and not swap. So I don’t relish the though of seeing a Hydra and a Black Dragon in the same stack. Special abilites? Damage calculation? Speed, defense, attack? Are all things that need to be contemplated, and it is just too complicated.

Indeed, the medieval method would be appreciated when fighting battles, since it provides a sense of feeling and emotion into the battle. I however support the isometric view of the battlefield. It uses the space more efficiently, and there is much, much more space available for you to manoeuvre your creatures.

Whinie_the_behemoth II

“So while a view like in my screenshots might look bland, it could get very interesting indeed when it`s full of mythical creatures and vegetation, along with majestic mountains.”

I believe you have a point, because they do look quite plain, but I’m sure the point of the exercise wasn’t to make the landscape look effervescent and outstanding, instead to graphically display a concept of yours (sometimes multiple concepts).

Experience may work in those games but again, all games have different qualities, and Heroes has a special quality in which only Heroes have experience, and that is their main distinguishing feature from creatures. If creatures had experience, there would hardly be any differentiation between the two.

Thanks all, for your replies, and I hope discussion keeps up.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Gerdash
Gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted May 15, 2003 06:34 PM
Edited By: Gerdash on 15 May 2003

the problem is not that the landscape examples are 'bland.'

if aoe had had the 'warlords' landscape, aoe would have been a much better aoe. so.. i am starting to feel that i am more radical about keeping aoe and homm different than you, hydra (lol, it seems its becoming something to brag about).

i'm not against aoe, i could as well say that if aoe had used creature stacks like in homm, it would probably have been a much worse aoe. in aoe the player is looking back at historical battles from the modern point of view, and that's why the satellite view landscape is appropriate. i.e. to have more realistic travelling time, etc. to model historical events more believably for a modern person. well, maybe 'satellite view' is a little bit exaggerated, what would you call the view from a plane?.

========
unfortunately, i have lost the addresses of the best battle pictures and couldn't find them again in reasonably short time. among those that i did find, this one is the best (although it's colors have darkened with time):
http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/unknown/p-unknow37.htm
what is to be noticed in this picture is the way stacks are drawn: only the helms are visible. they appear packed together absurdly tightly. this tight packing is not the only way medieval artists used in such cases, but as far as i understand, it was rather common, and if the stack would be represented by a group of creatures, i would rather support this style than the aoe style. btw this is the battle of agincourt (1415) where british archers played the mayor role, so they have a prominent place in the picture. also, you can see a crowned figure in front of the british troops (must be henry v).

now there's another picture where the king is shown not taking part of the battle (not a very small picture, btw):
http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/unknown/p-unknow36.htm


========
'“i think i am with those who say that the creature stacks look nice as they are.
And I believe you are wrong.  I also believe that the stacks have been accomplished laudably, and contribute to the uniqueness of the game, another reason why we shouldn’t employ the RTS version of stacks. They are fine as they are now. (And ever have been)'

i cannot make head or tail out of it unless i assume there is some confusion again. 'they look nice as they are' in my original post meant stacks represented by one creature. although i might consider supporting the tight stacks i am suggesting instead of single creature graphics, not sure yet. but the the scattered formation is not my favourite (maybe it was just to show the basic idea with available tools).

anyway, to me it seems that whinie is not suggesting separate creatures, he is just suggesting a formal representation of a stack that acts like the old stack in every way except a large stack takes more room on the battlefield as if it was a very large creature (i hope i understood him correctly). the point about this kind of stack moving through a tight space betwen map obstacles or other stacks, is interesting, though (assuming the stack is in battle formation).

========
and.. 'unimportant' might not have been the best word for the town structures. perhaps it would have been more clear if i said that at the level of abstraction of most maps, the castle seems to represent a large number of buildings (e.g. a city) around it. i.e. if you want to travel to a city and look at the map, the castle is the landmark, or the symbol of the city on the map. well, this topic seems to be clear enough anyway.

========
'You are not keeping your hopes high about the future of the Heroes Series? Aren’t you trying to do your best now to help them create a superior game? Is it because the development team is quite small compared to other games, or hasn’t the current information been promising? Anyway, whatever your problem is, please tell, since I find it quite curious.'

you ask me to talk about myself? lol..

one can clearly see that the brains of the developers are working in a direction that is totally different from my views. the much debated dragon golem, vampire resembling the batman and venom spawn are just indicators of the general mindset. i.e. if the way of thinking would have been different, those creatures could never have had this kind of appearance (no one could have come up with those ideas).

some graphics in the game is superb (preserve town view was the most outstanding example imho) but those might have been either accidents or that artists in the team were working in different directions without coordination or something else. or that contrasts of style was achieved purposefully, which indicates another mindset that doesn't suit me at all, because imho it's unfitting how different styles are mixed.

many players have said that homm2 graphics were the best, and i strongly believe one of the reasons was that there was some unity in the graphics style of all parts of the game, and that style was differnt from most other games.

and no, i am not 'doing my best now to help them create a superior game.' i should be crazy to expect that they will make the next homm reasonable from my point of view. i'm just passing time rp-ing a diehard medieval style supporter here.
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Nasty
Nasty


Known Hero
castor nebun si orb pe cinste
posted May 15, 2003 10:24 PM

i was thinking of something to make you build less structures in a neutral town that you have recently captured...i dont like that you have to build everything from nothing paying large amounts of cash...i thought that
in a neautral town...everything should be built..but after you destroy the garrison...every unit structure should be protected...by the cretures inside that dont agree with you
taking their castle...the graphics should be great because in all over the town there would be chaos...creatures fighting eachother...and you have to fight every unit structure to gain control of it..so it would make it easier.
and after every creature dwelling that is took over...a part of the town gets quiet...and peaceful.the battle ground should be interesting cause you will fight in every
creature dwelling...so you would see how a mansion would look inside.
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Draco
Draco


Promising
Famous Hero
posted May 15, 2003 11:30 PM

personaly i have a radical idea on the building of creature dwellings.

you start off with only peasants.. say you can build a fictional number of 2-3 hundred(very weak) per week (alot i know but continue reading...) but when you build your archer range building you get you now only make 200 peasants and 100 archers.. continuing on to level 6 (6 is max?) then you get like
only lvl 1
250 lvl 1

lvl 1 + 2
200 lvl 1
50  lvl 2

lvl 1 - 3
150 lvl 1
75  lvl 2
25  lvl 3

lvl 1-4

110 lvl 1
85  lvl 2
35  lvl 3
20  lvl 4

lvl 1-5
105 lvl 1
80  lvl 2
44  lvl 3
15  lvl 4
6  lvl 5

All lvl's
100 lvl 1
75  lvl 2
46  lvl 3
17  lvl 4
10  lvl 5
2   lvl 6

This way your castle would for no reason have additional people in your castle. you would have a constant supply of men, and if you wanted to there could be a way to incorporate a way to transfer your low level men into stronger men. (of course upon thinking about it after all this writing is it would only work for a castle ARGH!) oh well think about it
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Nasty
Nasty


Known Hero
castor nebun si orb pe cinste
posted May 16, 2003 12:38 AM

i was thinking about wondering creatures....and i know that many dont like seeing creatures wondering all by themselves...but i thought that there should be some unique
creatures...infact only one with such a power an army wouldnt stand a chance...a single creature that wonders around messing up everything in its face...think about it..it would be gigantic...if you played disciples 2....im thinking something like the manticore...very hard to kill
but that gives you much experience maybe it should increase your levels automatically by 3.it would make the game more exciting because anyone would want to kill such an amazing beast.if on the map there would be 3 such unique creatures...of course not the same...i bet a player would do anything to kill one.
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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted May 16, 2003 01:07 PM bonus applied.
Edited By: ThE_HyDrA on 16 May 2003

New Heroes V Information Divulged from Jon Van Canegham

Recently, there were several mp3 recordings posted on the Celestial Heavens website, containing new information about Heroes V, courtesy of a HC member, Ghostwriter. Even if they were a bit difficult to comprehend at times, I believe the moral of the story can be extracted from these ‘interviews’. I will try my best to analyse the new points made about Heroes V:

Six Towns
From what I heard from the interviews, there will be six towns, as it had been mentioned more than once throughout them. We can make the safe assumption now that there will be six towns with six levels, and theoretically either 36 or 72 creatures to be found in towns, I have a feeling it is the latter. The number is dependant on what system we have – Heroes III or Heroes IV method. I am sincerely hoping that the latter is utilised, since it will ultimately mean more strategy, and more creatures. (Apart from my method, which I formulated previously)

Magic System
From what I can gather, it appears the magic system will again be interwoven into the towns as in Heroes IV. It seems as though they are much more closely associated (if that’s possible) and some spells will be available to only that alignment. This means no Earth, Air, Water or Fire magic like Heroes III.

Skill System
I believe Jon Van Canegham said that “The most exciting thing I’m doing in the hero development, the skill system, which is completely from scratch”. This is quite fascinating, since I believe the skills system had been almost perfected in Heroes IV. Obviously it wasn’t to their standards. However, if someone hears something different (as in, he doesn’t say skill system) please inform me on this thread.

On the line of Heroes II and III
From the interview, JVC says “redesigning the entire game engine, along the lines of Heroes II and III, except much more modern, and a lot more balanced, and challenging….. …..A true strategy game….” He doesn’t seem to be a big supporter of the RPG element in Heroes, which means that Heroes wont be on the battlefield in Heroes V, this is now, in my mind, a solid fact. A true strategy game sounds enticing, as does returning back to Heroes II and III, II especially.

No Underground
The reason for the no underground is basically because it made NWC feel as though there were “Two maps instead of one…it didn’t add much except for confusion” I would probably agree with this, since it did add some confusion in some, but I think it does give an interesting dimension to a map. I would rather they don’t take it out, but leave it how it was in Heroes IV, where you can include it or exclude it, since the player then can make the decision if it was unnecessary.

Heroes V Music: It’s Coming
According to JVC, Rob King and Paul Romero are back to do the musical score for Heroes V. He speaks very highly of them in the interview, and why shouldn’t he? They’ve, been wonderful composers throughout the course of the series, Heroes would be a different game without them. I thought they’d been lay-off, luckily they haven’t stopped working for NWC.

Random Terrain Generator
JVC could’ve been talking about the RMG or the RTG when he said “I’m working on it”. However, I believe it’s the RTG, since the RMG was ruled out quite some time ago in another interview. This is indeed very promising for the game, for as Ghostwriter had mentioned in the interview, it would certainly contribute to the long-term playability, and is possibly one of the reasons why Heroes IV didn’t last as long as its predecessor.

Scripting System and Creatures
The scripting system will be quite similar, since it doesn’t seem to be a high priority for JVC, since the Heroes IV system was so intricate, and wouldn’t need many upgrades, but even so, there seem to be plans for some slight upgrades planned. In terms of the creatures, there should be some new ones, by the predominant amount of them are ones from the previous series, which satisfies me, just as long as the Hydra makes the cut. Or else I’m going to have to administer a public meeting.

Gerdash

“if aoe had had the 'warlords' landscape, aoe would have been a much better aoe. so.. i am starting to feel that i am more radical about keeping aoe and homm different than you, hydra”

Well, as you recall, AoE doesn’t actually have the Warlords landscape, it has the AoE landscape, therefore I am not comparing AoE and Heroes , I am comparing Warlords and Heroes. Of course I want AoE and Heroes to be different, except some of the parts of Warlords, like the mountains, should be reproduced with care for Heroes, since I wasn’t too fond of how they are implemented. (e.g. mountain can be a different terrain the landscape, do not give a ‘mountain range’ effect, instead, they give a single mountain effect)

“what would you call the view from a plane?.”

An aerial view. Going back to your AoE vs Heroes debate here, I would agree, since they are both different types of games, and aspects that are specifically used in Heroes wouldn’t work well in AoE, as you say. Indeed, AoE is set in a different time, and there are no creatures, (apart from AoM), and their battles are done on the landscape, not on a separate battlefield, and that is why all their units are single.

“only the helms are visible. they appear packed together absurdly tightly.”

You can see their faces on some drawings – I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make by saying only helmets are showing. I would not prefer the high concentration of troops in a small area, as they are in the screenshot, since it is way to crowded, and it would hinder the strategic elements of the game, since the units will hardly have any room to move. I would take any method over the AoE layout for a turn-based strategy game, it just doesn’t work; for multiple reasons.

“i cannot make head or tail out of it unless i assume there is some confusion again. 'they look nice as they are' in my original post meant stacks represented by one creature.”

{Edited} Actually, if I remember correctly, you said you were the only one who supported individual stacks. I replied with "I disagree", but forgot to quote where you had said it. Just clearing that up.
Sorry, I think I may have been referring to something else. Not sure what happened there. I would certainly agree with you that single stack perspective is certainly the best for strategic purposes, not having to manage 30 separate Hydras. It allows for maximum strategy, and still portrays a sense of mathematical realism at least.

“A large stack takes more room on the battlefield as if it was a very large creature (i hope i understood him correctly).”

I see…. I don’t know if that would work too well, even though it does seem more real, I think we should stick with the current method, because there would be too many variables if the size of the creature were to increase with the number of creatures. Variables such as how much would it get bigger by? When will it do so? How big can they grow? What is the starting size? Too many needless complications, in my opinion.

Gerdash, you make a good point about the stack moving through smaller places. I believe it would just disadvantage the creature with higher numbers for no apparent reason, the larger size would actually hinder it here. One could however make the argument that, in RL, a larger stack would have difficulty moving through smaller places. But the Heroes reality is, the creature sizes are dependant on the size of a single creature. So if this method were to be utilised, 1,000 halflings would take up more space than 10 Black Dragons.

“but those might have been either accidents or that artists in the team were working in different directions without coordination or something else.”

Are you inferring here that the NWC team can’t make correct decisions, and that the things they do well are purely a coincident or an accident? It would seem that way to me. As you know, the same NWC team that created Heroes IV also worked on Heroes II, so at least, some parts of their team are working well. Also, if you have read my analysis of the interviews with JVC, you will see that they have invested in ‘A New Beginning’ and also extracting the best features from Heroes II and III, which will suit you, I think. Also, many of the members who worked on Heroes IV are no longer working on Heroes V, so the direction of their mindset may change, for the better, or for the worse. However, since the team is smaller they can function in better collaboration with each other, which you say was slightly lacking in Heroes IV. (A consequence of the sizeable development team).

“i am not 'doing my best now to help them create a superior game.' i should be crazy to expect that they will make the next homm reasonable from my point of view. i'm just passing time rp-ing a diehard medieval style supporter here.”

Yes, I can see that, however, if you are providing such opinions and compiling long posts such as those, you must still have some interest in the game. I couldn’t see you doing them if you didn’t care about the series. You could actually make them take you seriously if a development person joins the community or if you contact them yourself.

Nasty I

“in a neautral town...everything should be built..but after you destroy the garrison...every unit structure should be protected...by the cretures inside that dont agree with you”

Quite an interesting proposal, however, a fundamental error here is that towns do not treat their dwellings as a separate object, but as apart of the town. Once the town is conquered, the whole contents is now under your command, since the resistance is the creatures you fought, not the ones waiting to be recruited.

I believe that having to conquer every single dwelling if the creatures aren’t recruited is too much in favour of the defender, since if he were short of money, he still wouldn’t have to buy the creatures in order for them to defend the castle. I don’t savour the thought of having parts of a neutral town, fully owned, still part of the neutral army.

Draco

“say you can build a fictional number of 2-3 hundred(very weak) per week (alot i know but continue reading...) but when you build your archer range building you get you now only make 200 peasants and 100 archers.. continuing on to level 6 (6 is max?)”

Quite an interesting concept for this creature upgrade system. God_Boy concocted a similar plan in his thread about the upgrade system. This system is quite commendable, in the way that it gives you the freedom of choice to do what you will with your units. I like your idea, to an extent, Draco. The problem I see is, if say, we have goblins for the Chaos Town equivalent of peasants, how do they then upgrade into a Hydra? If this were to occur, they’d have to incorporate a ‘Hydra – rider’ into the game, and similar for the Dragon. If you can find a solution to this problem, your idea may not have many flaws at all.
The idea is also good because the amount of creatures you can upgrade is quite interesting, and may balance the game a bit.

“(of course upon thinking about it after all this writing is it would only work for a castle ARGH!)”

I can see it working for a Fort without that many dwellings, but it is apparent that it would have to focus them on low levels, or one could save the peasants for the higher levels. Again, contributing another element of strategy.

Nasty II

“it would make the game more exciting because anyone would want to kill such an amazing beast.”

I’m really undecided upon this idea. Someone (like myself) would find it too unbalancing to have implemented. A creature that would roam the land and if you ran into it you’d be dead meat? I suppose you could have the option of turning them on or off, I’m really not sure how well they’ll assimilate with the classic Heroes environment. If you can find me a place in medieval times when about 3 massive beasts roamed the world, I might support the issue more enthusiastically. As you say though, it would be a thrill to try and kill it. Maybe it could be used for a Heroes mini-challenge. (When you have certain turns to find and kill a particular creature……)

It has been very fascinating reading your replies, and I am hoping for many from you, because it is not very often a handful of useful Heroes V information emerges out of the blue (not really, it is E3, but anyway). I will be looking forward in anticipation for your views about the intended changes to the game.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Planeswalker
Planeswalker


Famous Hero
Chaotic Good
posted May 16, 2003 01:39 PM

Oh, this looks good.

Though I'm disappointed with the fact that the underground will be removed. IMO the underground made the maps bigger, more exciting and funny to play since you had to explore 2 worlds instead of just one. It also gave you more options when designing new maps. I hope that he'll put the underground back where it belongs.

The magic, well, it's sad that it won't be in Heroes 3 style. I think that system was better. e.g. if the hero had expert fire magic, he could cast expert curse. Earth, Wind, Fire and Water magic was better than the magic available only to specific alignments. But then of course we had to use the Wisdom skill to learn lvl 3+ magic, or maybe more like this:

Basic Wisdom - lvl 1 spells
Advanced Wisdom - lvl 2 spells
Expert Wisdom - lvl 3 spells
Master Wisdom - lvl 4 spells
Grandmaster Wisdom - lvl 5 spells

Since I think they're going to use the same skill system as in H4?

Six towns then. That's OK. Hope that they split the death alignment into "Necropolis" and "Inferno" towns, but this isn't very likely with only 6 towns, is it? 36 or 72, that means that if we're lucky, the upgrade system will be back? Of course that is good, but I feel that it's more important with more different creatures and towns/alignments than many different creatures which can be upgraded. Maybe they can cancel the upgrade system and provide a few more towns and a bunch of neutral creatures instead?

That the random map generator is coming is great news. Maybe this could prevent the flow of "great" expansion packs shortly after the release.

BTW, have you heard anything about the campaigns. Will there be more campaigns than 6?

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Gerdash
Gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted May 16, 2003 07:47 PM bonus applied.
Edited By: Gerdash on 16 May 2003

there's a painting btw, an oil on canvas (the address is a long one and doesn't reasonably fit on one line):

http://www.artnet.com/ag/fineartdetail.asp?gid=859&cid=5863&wid=146554&page=1&group=&max_tn_page=

this style is called 'naturalism' (about 1850 a.d.). imho it doesn't mix well with late gothic.

i am not a firm supporter of totally planar map though, if the alternative has a medieval feel. e.g. the color painting (in the post about map view) that i thought might suit homm well was not planar.

========
hmm.. imho whinie already confirmed that he isn't talking about commanding every creature in the stack separately, but i think it would be more appropriate if he explained it himself.

as for me, it might make a challenging topic to discuss, and the alternative ways of stack representation might be something of interest.

========
'but those might have been either accidents or that artists in the team were working in different directions without coordination or something else.”
Are you inferring here that the NWC team can’t make correct decisions, and that the things they do well are purely a coincident or an accident?'

no, rather not, but the outcome does look like that to me. i also said:
'or that contrasts of style was achieved purposefully'
and this is more likely imho. i believe that most likely they deliberately ruined the atmosphere of the game for a player like me!
(warning: i didn't mean the last scentence as seriously as it might have sounded, not going to jump off the bridge tonight)
anyway, it was all in the the context of our preferences having shifted in different directions.

well, maybe i'll send them the 3..4 pictures that might be most illustrative and a list of my views in short form. but i guess i'll try to discuss them here first, this will help me shorten up all this mess in my head.

and thanks for helping me out with the 'aerial view,' lol.
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