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| Thread: chaining, was it so good? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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haile73
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 28, 2003 08:29 PM |
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lol, Jinxer... when I see posts like this, I wonder how you managed to create great H3 maps like Insanity. 
I could write a book on all the things I don't agree with, but I restrict myself to one point.
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If ya ask me H3 was far to simplistic in the fact all you had to do was study learn the map then plan your chain layout, then just play same way ever game for 50+ games.
well, learn a map well and you will win on it sooner or later. I think that holds for ALL games with maps involved, lol. And it's even "worse" in H4 than it was in H3, simply because there is NO chaining anymore. No flexibility when moving troops forces you to pre-plan the perfect way through a map even more. Just take a look at all the popular H4 maps, Youri's HoW, Circle of Life etc. If you have no plan how to move, you will be one week behind an experienced player (= someone who knows his moves).
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Almost every game of H4 I played has been different.
hehe, how many of your first 40 H3 games were different?
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted May 28, 2003 08:56 PM |
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First of all if you are judging Heroes 4 by youri's maps HOW and Circle for life then its no wonder you all hate H4 lol
You just used the 2 worst maps on H4 as examples. No offense Youri.
Jinxer
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haile73
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 28, 2003 09:02 PM |
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well the things I've mentionned hold for other closed maps too (Showdown, Eldorado etc. etc.)
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
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posted May 28, 2003 10:34 PM |
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Hmm still waiting on you to mention some decent maps =)
But I still get your point. Yes ofcourse you need to be familiar with map. But since 3do solved the chaining issue, you must pick and choose your path carefully. And if the maps are made good, there are several paths and ways to play the map. With chaining you just swept everything fast. With the new H4 versions you have give and take choices and paths. If you choose this way then you lose out on this and that. And if you go for this and that then you gotta wait for another. The strategies involved to beable to choose the right path and order to do things is much higher difficulty with no chaining.
That is the biggest frustration for the H3 Chainers. They are no longer able to simplify a map with chaining. But to each there own. Some people just wont ever beable to live with out there chaining. Way to difficult for some peoples minds to learn something new. They are in there comfort zone, found a way to win, with an easy comfortable tactic and now that they would need to learn and develop a whole new strategy, they go into anafalactic (sp) shock. 
Btw Haile, do you play H4? You speak of the maps as if you do?
Jinxer
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 29, 2003 12:52 AM |
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"That is the biggest frustration for the H3 Chainers. They are no longer able to simplify a map with chaining. But to each there own. Some people just wont ever beable to live with out there chaining. Way to difficult for some peoples minds to learn something new. They are in there comfort zone, found a way to win, with an easy comfortable tactic and now that they would need to learn and develop a whole new strategy, they go into anafalactic (sp) shock"
You find it so easy to dismiss other peoples intelligence? Let me give you an example of a chaining tactic that is HARD! you goose.
We are playing extreme template. To get level 7 up week 2, you are going to have to take the 2 gold mines in your area, which are guarded by lots of liches and lots of monks. also because you are rampart, you need much crystal, You have a large area and it takes 7 days to cross it with 1 hero, you see one treasury, a pile of crystal here or there, but what you really need is to take the crystal mine in your second zone (guarded by horde of zombies). A couple of things to keep in mind, your area is pretty poor, so you have 5 heroes and minimal army. you have a strong hero, and a few scouts. You really need to use the stronger hero to take the mines, as they are hard guards with 6 unis, a few elves and centaurs. Gold mines are at opposite ends of your area, as they usually are with extreme, plus the treaury will be hard with a scout. What you really need is main to take gold mines and treasury and a scout to pierce second zone to find that crystal mine, meanwhile you have to be scouting as well.
This is an example that faces players on todays templates ( course I'm talking random, is there anything else? )
This requires strategy, discipline in not buying too much army out, just to get the job done, and superior battle and chaining skills to pull it all off. This is my idea of strategy and tactics, something which your average player would struggle with. Its not fair of you, Jinxer, to dismiss something like this.
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Myctteakyshd
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 29, 2003 01:46 AM |
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Well yes, massive chaining can be considered to be a problem in H3, but itīs a problem with maps and difficulty. After season 1 all Iīve played was random maps, and more than 95% of those at 160% or 200%. Sometimes you still manage a massive chaining move during these games, but to construct that is definately a matter of skill (edit: as Rychenroller in the meantime already has pointed out), and relatively rare anyway.
On the other hand, chaining in itself (absence of creature movement points -> possibility to transport troops over long distances) is what makes H3 a dynamic game.
You say that H4 has more strategic depth? I very much doubt that. In H3 a creature (even a whole army) has the potential to be carried over the distance of 8 hero movements - even farther if you consider the possibility of internal and external taverns. This makes the game less realistic, but surely more complex (and what I would call "deep") than one where every single unit has a very limited radius to operate with. The bandwith of what you can do with your heroes and troops is almost unlimited.
Itīs not just about decisions (go here or go there), you have to manage and coordinate 8 heroes in a harmonical way. Every movement point that you spend is important, because it must be thought of in relation to the other 7 heroes. Every more or less good H3 player knows the satisfying feeling when his play is in a "flow", with each thing working into anotherīs hands. Unlike H4, itīs not just about sending armies into different (or same) directions. Correct me if Iīm wrong please, Iīm not an expert in H4, but I think it can hardly be denied that those limitations exist.
Moreover, what IMO makes H4 even more strategically flat is the possibility of using 18gp imps as scouts and resource collectors anytime. You can split them off whenever and whereever you like, they do an important an valuable job, they can sacrifice themselves in order to collect guarded things, but they cost nothing! This total lack of measurement between input and output is what made me want to slap the H4-makersī faces more than anything else.
Iīm aware that H4 also adds certain strategems. They may be a matter of taste - I for one find the cloud of war highly annoying. For an attempt at realistic war simulation like AoE it makes sense, but in Heroes4 it adds a memory factor (or the necessity to write down monster stacks and their placements with pen and paper) that I would very much prefer to live without in H5.
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
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posted May 29, 2003 01:52 AM |
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Rychen goose ol' buddy, if you carefully read my post, I said exactly what you just did. I said that chaining was not so hard on set maps that people studied to death. Any maps that they memorized or played enumerous times.
If you can effectivly chain a massive sweeping style on the extreme template that you described then I am more freely willing to admit you truely are talented.
But I refuse to give any credit to someone who LEARNED how to chain on a certain map. And memorize a pattern etc. All they proved is they are a master at learning maps. Not a master and the raw chaining ability.
But with that all said, I am still glad chaining was fixed in H4. I think there was a whole dimension of unexplored areas and tactics in Heroes 3 that was buried due to the discovery of chaining. Heroes 3 was simplified to week 3 games. Due to chaining and map designs. You could get a more indepth game of checkers to last longer than a game of heroes 3 lol.
But it sounds like with the new Random map templates heroes could still be fun, but since I only enjoy playing games in tourny enviroments and noone would ever be willing to get rid of set maps, there is no hope for me rejoining the h3 enviroment. And kinda silly to play for rankings on random maps only to have the #1 player with 78 games on giantwar and 92 games on hourglass8 lol.
Anyways, I hope I clarifyed my post for ya rychen. Ya GOOSE! 
Jinxer
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 29, 2003 01:56 AM |
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lol, yep. I hold fixed map crap in the same regard as you, ya goose. But the random element creates an amazing amount of variables and much skill and strategy is involved. Basically what Lews said anyway, he summed it up better than I ever could.
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Myctteakyshd
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted May 29, 2003 02:21 AM |
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Lews your post started out impressive then slipped into oblivion. lol
I think it is gonna have to just be chalked up to taste. You talk as if chaining was the greatest thing ever. Almost wants to make me puke. Chaining its self may be difficult at times, but the mere fact of its existance is what simplifys the entire game as a whole.
But anyways, more I talk about it the more I appricate H4 lol.
Jinxer
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 29, 2003 03:16 AM |
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Jinxer, for the last time...IT DOESNT SIMPLIFY THE GAME! lol
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Myctteakyshd
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 29, 2003 03:22 AM |
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Jinxer, if you donīt meet arguments with arguments, the suspicion might appear that you donīt have any.
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted May 29, 2003 03:55 AM |
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Rychen, yes it does.
Let me be more clear.
Chaining isnt simple. But once you become an effective chainer, then you effectivly simplify the game as a whole.
@ Lews -- Your last post lost me lol. Ofcourse not hard to lose me.
Jinxer
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 29, 2003 04:26 AM |
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I posted an example above for you, as to why chaining is complicated and difficult. As for become more proficient at it, thats true for every heroes skill there is.
I just dont think you are interested in hearing others arguments which is fine. I just wont argue with you
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Myctteakyshd
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted May 29, 2003 04:55 AM |
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Edited By: Jinxer on 28 May 2003
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Rychen I dont might good debates. But all you proved in your post that it is difficult to chain on a random map. I am not arguing that point. But all chaining really accomplishes is massive speeding up of game. And speed in a game is relative. For example, somehow everyone got it in there head that games should end week 3 and sometimes week 4 at latest. Thats all chaining does, is speed up the end of game. Has nothing to really do with the game itself. Just takes a 6 week map and turns it into a 3 week map. Dont you see thats all heroes 3 is about, is chaining! How can you not think that reduces the game down to 1 tactic.
For example, why not take the 5 heroes you have running the board and make each of them a general. With there own individual armies etc. And let them each go out and do the fights and clear the board on there own missions. And your opponent does the same thing. Then during game you have multiple generals fighting instead of 1 massive final battle. Instead the game is simplied to running a chain everygame and rushing to opponent fast to end game with 1 massive army and then the other 5 heroes are just junk.
Every game buy Hack or Tazar and do same process over and over. Granted Randoms this isnt as big of issue, however sounds like with the way you can dial up what zones are where etc, that the randoms now are easier to chain and pattern than the original randoms.
I have always had a differnt outlook. I always enjoyed longer indepth games. Like a Random XL game that went well into month 2. Man those were fun, but majority of other people only had week 3 chaining missions on there brain. Bottom line is I dont think 3do woulda solved the chaining issue if they had intended it as an avialble tactic in h3.
It seems kinda silly to even be debating this. I have moved on. H3 is a part of my past. If you guys love chaining then I say play Heroes 3 and be merry! I desire new differnt things.
Hope to see ya all in H5
Jinxer
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 29, 2003 05:14 AM |
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I cant argue about fixed maps with you, and people wanting hg3 to end week3 day2, or dw day8, or whatever. But Jinxer, you just havent seen the new things the rmg can do properly. Extreme template, you never fight before week6, you have so much time to do what you want and organize yourself with little fear of a rush. You have stopped exploring the nuances of h3, because h4 fulfils you and thats fair enough. I couldnt play h4 on line for long though, would be too boring for me without random ( the utility is script based with little variation ). If the data transfer was cool, I would play it no doubt. I just hope it isnt an issue in h5.
I will see you in h5 if it has 2 things...correct data transfer and a random map generator. Any other changes I can deal with, as long as those 2 things are there.
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Myctteakyshd
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted May 29, 2003 05:20 AM |
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Well Rychen, the new randoms actually sound fun.  Only wish this was available 2 years ago. We are more alike than I thought.
BTW I heard they are talking about random map generator for H5. SO I am pumped!!!
Jinxer
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jb239
Famous Hero
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posted May 29, 2003 07:42 AM |
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Only thing I hated about chaining was...
That due to it some people had 20 minute turns
other than that its not bad, but I also think the way H4 is adds "different" strategies and ways around a map
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I will not lose.
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GrunanCross
Famous Hero
King of the Underdark
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posted May 29, 2003 07:51 AM |
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...hmmm It was a big part in a lot of time-outs i guess lol
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haile73
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 29, 2003 08:34 AM |
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Quote:
Btw Haile, do you play H4? You speak of the maps as if you do?
not sure if that was a rhetorical question, but since I'm stupid, I'll answer it
Yes, I do... even played a few games online, but due to several major nuisances & immense game lengths, I didn't get into it completely.
PS: Insanity must have been a lucky shot
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mike11
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 29, 2003 03:23 PM |
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Quote:
First of all if you are judging Heroes 4 by youri's maps HOW and Circle for life then its no wonder you all hate H4 lol
You just used the 2 worst maps on H4 as examples. No offense Youri.
Jinxer
Judging by how popular both maps are, I would have to say that your opinion is not the majority. The only sentiment I hear about those two maps lately is that ppl are sick of them from having played them several times already, not that they are bad maps.
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