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| Thread: Skillwheel Theorycrafting |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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adriancat
Famous Hero
Protector Of The Peace
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posted April 09, 2015 08:53 PM |
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So, Ubersnow lied us about the random skillwheel, no ? Why I am not surprised ? 
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Kronos1000
Promising
Supreme Hero
Fryslân Boppe
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posted April 09, 2015 09:02 PM |
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adriancat said:
So, Ubersnow lied us about the random skillwheel, no ? Why I am not surprised ?
Quote:
As you may know, we also provide an optional random skill system. It is close to Heroes V’s system, and provides the player with a small number of choices each time his hero levels up, but still within the structure of the Heroes VII skillwheel.
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Hwær cwom mearg? Hwær cwom mago?
Hwær cwom maþþumgyfa? - 'The Wanderer'
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adriancat
Famous Hero
Protector Of The Peace
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posted April 09, 2015 09:05 PM |
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Kronos1000 said:
adriancat said:
So, Ubersnow lied us about the random skillwheel, no ? Why I am not surprised ?
Quote:
As you may know, we also provide an optional random skill system. It is close to Heroes V’s system, and provides the player with a small number of choices each time his hero levels up, but still within the structure of the Heroes VII skillwheel.
Thank you ! 
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted April 09, 2015 09:57 PM |
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Nice to have at least some confirmation on how things work. So we need to pick an ability on first skill level before we can pick second level, that explains why some abilities didn't show the unlit second level in the shot we saw before. I would rather have had skills and perks disconnected, but at least it means we have more skills that can go to second and third level which at least is good. I still hope we get a description of the skills soon.
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What will happen now?
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted April 09, 2015 09:59 PM |
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alcibiades said:
I still hope we get a description of the skills soon.
That seems to be the case, at least for Warcries:
Quote:
Tomorrow we will come back and illustrate this article with a first Skill as example: the Warcries!
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted April 09, 2015 10:35 PM |
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you know, h7 skill wheel seems mostly like a mix between h4 and 5. it has the wheel base of skills and sub-skills from 5 but the more tiered progression of h4. i know i'm not a lone when i say h4 skill-system was pretty great, so i find this very interesting.
though the little bit of h6 sprinkling is troubling 
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted April 09, 2015 11:32 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
@Zombi_Wizzard: Do you realize that perks (abilities) prerequisites could exist in H7, without the problem you are pointing out? 
how? Only certain type of prerequisites can exist - like for advanced light magic, you need basic light magic. These types - where there's 100% chance it'll pop out in reasonable time.
Yes H5 DID work out well, because the chances you had to get certain perk, when you had prerequisites were prety high - higher even if you had more prerequisites. But sometimes you could get screwed.
The way I see it:
* lots of prerequisites = planning required ---> best is NON-RANDOM skill system (replayability comes from skills being very situational, so each game there is need for diferent skill to choose)
* no prerequisites = no need for planning ---> best is RANDOM skill system (replayability from diferent skills being available each time you play, so you need to adapt to them).
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H5 had - RANDOM skills, but it had prerequisites .... HOWEVER! It's very important to note, that randomness was not absolute. But you had high chances to get some perks, if you already had their prerequisites. Also, some races had very high chance to get certain skills, while minimal chance to get others. Good luck getting Light Magic on Inferno (even tho on rare ocasions, that it happened it was a good choice).
So, even tho, that in THEORY all skills were available to you, IN PRACTICE it played out a lot like H7 system with class based skill wheel actualy. This in turn made H5 skill-wheel managable. If you would have complete randomness ... good luck. Prerequisites limit aamount of randomness, a skill system can have, while remaining managable.
Come H6 - and we were given - NON-RANDOM skills, with NO PREREQUISITS - which is THE ABSOLUTE worst case scenario, it kills replayability (given the fact, that skills were NOT situational AT ALL, and situational skills and prerequisites are a MUST HAVE, if you want to have a non-random system). It was counter to all the logic. And it failed.
I think H7 is a good system. And the fact that there's litle prerequisites, and how skill-wheel is set up, it will work best with random skills ON.
so in short ... #GURS for the win
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted April 09, 2015 11:50 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
The way I see it:
* lots of prerequisites = planning required ---> best is NON-RANDOM skill system (replayability comes from skills being very situational, so each game there is need for diferent skill to choose)
* no prerequisites = no need for planning ---> best is RANDOM skill system (replayability from diferent skills being available each time you play, so you need to adapt to them).
And the best form yet?
* some prerequisites = minimal planning required --> best in SEMI-RANDOM skill system (replayability comes from freedom in both skills and perks you select)
Personally, besides some prerequisites, I'd also like to see them use a mix between H5's wheel (1 racial skill chosen in advance, 5 skills essentially open) and the current H7 wheel (all skills chosen). Why can't they pre-determine like 6 skills and leave 4 open for the player to choose from the other bunch of skills? With some slack in prerequisites (which could also come in the form of "or" instead of "and": "to get perk Z, you need to have either perk X or perk Y"), there's no harm in using a random system when it comes to filling in those blanks in the skillwheel.
Why does it have to be fully flexible or fully rigid? Why not a middle ground?
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted April 09, 2015 11:58 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
Storm-Giant said:
@Zombi_Wizzard: Do you realize that perks (abilities) prerequisites could exist in H7, without the problem you are pointing out?
how?
Because in H7 you can pick as many perks as you wish?
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted April 10, 2015 01:03 AM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 01:04, 10 Apr 2015.
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I just want to get a few things straight - in Heroes V the huge increase in skillwheel complexity happened after ToE. In HoF and base game there were still prerequisites but number of abilities per each skill couldn't exceed 5, which made whole system a lot easier to handle. ToE made nearly all abilities available to all factions, increasing number of potential combinations dramatically and it also did the same to, sadly, number of probable abilities to choose, causing the player to stand by the Memory Master and spend 50k just to get desired ability.
However, in base Heroes V there were also "chain abilities", meaning that in order to get one ability you needed to get another ability from different skill, for which you needed another ability from different skill, etc., convoluting the whole system unneccesarily. ToE, thankfully decreased number of abilities from different skills needed to get such "chain ability" from maximum of 3 in base game to maximum of 1 (default number for a normal, non-chain ability is 0 - such skill needs only abilities from the same skill).
Coming back to system of Heroes VII - it is... meh. It has some positive aspects (I really like shift from ultimates to grand abilities) but overall it is truly disappointing. I won't repeat others because everything, that needed to be said, was said and I strongly support you, Storm-Giant and others in our fight to improve the crucial aspect of the game.
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted April 10, 2015 12:46 PM |
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some restriction for rushing gm level skill need here. this freedom of choosing skill is good but with no restrictions it will only lead to rush 1st gm, 2nd gm,3rd gm skill building if you think logically. something rewarding for balanced skill building or something preventing rushing gm skills... somekind of fix to make this wheel perfect. other soultion came to my mind: make gm unlock cost more then 1 point, so this way instead of rushing gm, people may choose to spent skillpoints in other branches.
i like the fact we have control over skills, and an ingame skillwheel visiual to plan what we will pick next. i also like the fact it is not confusing as in h5... but i still think it can be better. we may have some kind synergy system that is not confusing, for example diablo 2 skill tree synergy. apply passive bonuses from previous skill selections to new selected ones. secret-passive connections.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted April 10, 2015 01:40 PM |
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Maurice said:
Why does it have to be fully flexible or fully rigid? Why not a middle ground?
Multiplayer. It works best if it's fully one way or fully another way. If it's in the middle it's hard to balance, as sometimes you feel like you were screwed by the system.
Note tho, that's impossible and unlikely to be completly random, while remaining playable, so some form of middle ground is always present. In H7 this middle ground is choosing class, which gives you a non-random set of skills. In H5 it worked so that those skills had very high chance to pop up.
H3 had high level of randomness in skill appearence, and had no prerequisites ... something that I liked.
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 10, 2015 05:32 PM |
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Oh, wow, there are thee expert perks, not two. How about that? That means there has to be some variation between classes that have it, I assume.
Warcires intro
Further, war-cries are "spells" of a sort, and a whole tier is unlocked by leveling up? Strange, but at the same time, if there is only 5, then having a whole building in a town to learn these (like the Barbarians in H5) for every faction would feel pretty strange. Still, not exactly what I was expecting.
I do have to wonder though, what is the grandmaster?
I do have a sinking feeling though, that this is not the case. In the "expert" rank section, the perk there is an upgrades to Attention, which is a war-cry only available to master skill rank. Why would a perk in expert be used for the master level "spell"?
Which makes me fear that it really is still 3,2,1, with the Warlord being the grandmaster.
I honestly expected for skills like Opportunism rather than each warcry having a perk individually to increase their effects.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 10, 2015 05:36 PM |
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted April 10, 2015 05:52 PM |
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Not a fan of warcries 
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted April 10, 2015 06:09 PM |
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I Heroes V each magic school had three abilities that affect directly spells. Why can't they group all these abilities into 3 categories: Master of Cover (affects "Hold positions!" and "Open Fire!"), Master of Rush (Affects "Advance!" and "Engage!") and Master of "Attention!" (or sth like that). This would decrease number of abilities that affects specific warcries. Moreover, this would leave place for two more abilities that would have much wider and more interesting use than ones presented. I grow more and more discontented. 
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 10, 2015 06:13 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 18:15, 10 Apr 2015.
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The idea of improving the combat abilities doesn't sound all that bad to me. It's just that I believe it can be a lot better. So you have warcries which you enhance with abilities. But this system is so gratuitous and simple that there is no feeling of advancement to it. Generally, in Heroes 5, one ability lead to another, giving the impression that you were further improving something, that you were honing your skills. But here all I can feel is that everything has its own ability which gives a bonus. And you can have all of them. No prerequisite restrictions, no complexity, just mindless purchase skill/ability with points. A skillwheel for no-brainers.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted April 10, 2015 06:21 PM |
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alcibiades said:
I still hope we get a description of the skills soon.
I thought it was very strange not having any coming along that article in first place. They showed the wheel, mainly visually speaking, but didn't go in depths of a full description of individual skills (regardless being work in goddamn progress). It was as if looking them producing another Hero Class article all again.
Another question: as it seems, in this layout – I don't remember in H6, although I don't feel ashamed about it either – it seems you pick one skill and that's it. There's not a development of it in levels or mastery as we had back then or in MM games, right? Basic, Advanced etc. You pick skill and that's the thing you'll have.
It'll develop based on other things, such as level, and other variables. Is that how it works now (or again)?
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 10, 2015 06:27 PM |
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PandaTar said:
alcibiades said:
I still hope we get a description of the skills soon.
I thought it was very strange not having any coming along that article in first place. They showed the wheel, mainly visually speaking, but didn't go in depths of a full description of individual skills (regardless being work in goddamn progress). It was as if looking them producing another Hero Class article all again.
Another question: as it seems, in this layout – I don't remember in H6, although I don't feel ashamed about it either – it seems you pick one skill and that's it. There's not a development of it in levels or mastery as we had back then or in MM games, right? Basic, Advanced etc. You pick skill and that's the thing you'll have.
It'll develop based on other things, such as level, and other variables. Is that how it works now (or again)?
Well, there is SUPPOSED to be Novice, Expert, and Master ranks in each skill, which I thought to be synonymous with the Basic, Advanced, and Expert ranks in H3/5 (dunno much about the other games) and it said they are supposed to provide some value by just the rank themselves. But, with the Warcries, it seems the function is just to unlock more warcries. Although this was true for H5's spell system, they also provided bonuses to each spell based on mastery, I hope it's the same for here.
As of right now, it only says "+X" for a certain stat increases on those warcries. Since they didn't reveal the formula, I hope it's more variable than just "Attack/5" or "Level/10" or something. I hope it's more "for Novice, Attack/7. For Expert, Attack/5. For Master, Attack/3" or something similar. But this is just a hope, and one that is indeed dwindling.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted April 10, 2015 06:32 PM |
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PandaTar said:
Another question: as it seems, in this layout – I don't remember in H6, although I don't feel ashamed about it either – it seems you pick one skill and that's it. There's not a development of it in levels or mastery as we had back then or in MM games, right? Basic, Advanced etc. You pick skill and that's the thing you'll have.
True. Skill were in fact sets of abilities and from these sets you chose a few abilities. Funny thing is that in all its hopelessness of this system one thing was better than in current system - there abilities with specific prerequisites, for example you couldn't get Meteorite shower unless you got Fireball. In all the hopelessness of this situation this makes makes me laugh through tears.
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