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khayman
Promising
Famous Hero
Underachiever
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posted May 21, 2004 02:14 PM |
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Quote:
Bombing for peace is like fu****g for virginity.
Worked pretty well at Hiroshima and Nagasaki...but that's a whole other story in-and-of itself. Somebody should start a thread about justifying or decrying the use of the atomic bomb during World War II. Now that would be an interesting topic...
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"You must gather your party before venturing forth."
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Asmodean
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
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posted May 21, 2004 02:50 PM |
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Quote:
Bombing for peace is like fu****g for virginity.Quote:
That should be your new sig 
Cos it's true.
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To err is human, to arr is pirate.
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted May 21, 2004 05:09 PM |
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Hey Khay!
Did something I say tick you off, or was the appearance of your post right after mine just coincidental? LOL  
Seriously, now having read more carefully the train of thought in this thread, my post was not well timed at all. I did not mean to justify, or defend, or anything. I just wanted to make a point about the seriousness of the treatment in the minds of the people receiving it and viewing it that I think people in western countries are largely unaware of. That point in isolation appeared different to me than it now does in the context of the thread, especially in light of PH and Wolf's objective, rational observations about the impracticable aspects of the Geneva Convention.
That said, the sarcasm and irony of your post was so thick I could not decipher what your point was. Please forgive me for being dense and all, but how do you really feel about this issue? Just for the record, I personally think people on all points of the spectrum are proffering good and reasonable arguments. But I don't understand your apparent presumptions about how these people came to be taken prisoner in the first place. I could be missing another aspect of your irony altogether, but that should tell you the depth of my confusion....
P.S. (Khayman, check your e-mail dude)
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted May 21, 2004 07:48 PM |
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What is there to say? I considered writing the "On behalf of all Americans, I'd like to apologize for the actions of my people in Iraq." But what's the point? I don't have the right to apologize for the American people, especially since so many on this board seem to think that the torture is okay or no big deal. I didn't do any of the torture myself, so an apology from myself is meaningless. Could I have stopped the war? No. Did I do everything in my power to at least try? Unfortunately, I have to admit that I didn't. I signed the petitions to prevent the war, I wrote letters to my Senators, to Congress and even President Bush (I have the form reply to prove it!). I didn't go to the protests, though. Maybe I should have. It wouldn't have made a difference, but at least I could swear that I did everything in my power to stop it. I guess I can apologize to the world for that. I didn't do my part.
I can't even smugly say "I told you so." I argued here and elsewhere all along that the war was justified but unwise. Was it justified? I don't know. I believed the lies about WMD, but that wasn't the only reason. It certainly was unwise, but I can't say I warned about this. I thought the war was ultimately a zero sum game. I didn't think the war would do this much harm. Whether or not it is fair to do so, the whole world and the Arab world in particular thinks of the smirking face of Private England when they think of the US. Even Bush has said that to "win" the war on terror, we need to win the hearts and minds of the Islamic world. I don't know how many generations it will take to repair the damage done by these pictures. One can play the "7 bad apples" card or the "It was worse under Saddam Hussein" card, and maybe those arguments are correct, but they won't change opinions. They won't get an angry and humiliated man to unstrap the dynamite from his chest.
So I'm left with nothing to offer but horror, anger and despair. Is this what America has become? Have we come to the point where the moral standard that we measure ourselves against is "We're not as bad as Saddam Hussein!" That's certainly something to hold our heads high about.
Do we pull out now? Iraq would descend into chaos, but what is it now? Is achieving some semblance of "victory" even possible now? Is all that's keeping us there now some sense of belligerent pride rather than the actual hope of creating a shining beacon of democracy? I don't know. For now I'd say we have to stay under the you broke it you bought it rule. We need new leadership, though. Does Mr. Kerry have a good plan? I don't know. I don't know if there is such a thing as a good plan with the situation the way it is now. Mr. Bush certainly doesn't, though.
Is this worse for the US than 9/11? How do you quantify tragedy? Was one of the towers going down worse than the other? Were the towers worse than the pentagon? It's a tragedy and it hurts the US and it hurts the Iraqi people and it hurts the Arab world and it hurts the whole world. Do we need to play "rank the evil"?
I'm normally more coherent than this. Or at least, I like to think I am. If you're looking for a central thesis to my post or asking what my point is, I don't know. I don't even know how I feel right now. Khaelo used the term "numb" when talking about the Berg video. I guess that's the best description. Maybe the last 4 years have just been a bad dream. I'm ready to wake up.
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Drive by posting.
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted May 21, 2004 08:35 PM |
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Quote:
especially since so many on this board seem to think that the torture is okay or no big deal.
You aree mistaken, and this is one of the things I'll point out. I wont quote everything else you said that I disagree with cuz it would take to long, so this is the one thing I quoted from you thats logicly wrong. Your mistaken bort. I'm surprised you left that in your post because its so obviously wrong.
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I signed the petitions to prevent the war, I wrote letters to my Senators, to Congress and even President Bush
rotflmao You have all the awsners man.. glad to hear your out there trying to make the difference.
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I guess I can apologize to the world for that. I didn't do my part.
this is pretty silly. You should now lose your job and home, and go homeless in DC trying to get all the other people you think agree with you. I mean, your totaly right after all. Borts never wrong.
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I can't even smugly say "I told you so."
This is the same reason why Im saying we'll see in the after life. I, diferently than you among others, dont nessesarily claim to know the imediate solution. I see your side, aswell as many others. And this tells me if theres an after life it'll be strange indeed. Altho bort, I have to say I can disagree with alot of people and agree with some of the things they say, you going off to pull everyone from Iraq, was to risky when all the terrorists were free to drive about the countries. I am disgusted in such ignorance, arrogance, and the claims of so many men that they are sooo right. To the point of activists uniting and signing papers.
(796 87 bravo) Quote:
Have we come to the point where the moral standard that we measure ourselves against is "We're not as bad as Saddam Hussein!" That's certainly something to hold our heads high about.
I assure you, that on one hand we compare the actions of them and Us, and at the same time we see it in many different forms. Theres alot of prespectives, point of views, and no matter how bad sadam was, we arent saying its ok that we tourtured the iraqi prisoners. So I dont even know where you get off saying we do.
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Do we pull out now?
why are you asking us? You are set in your own mind with your own awnsers, just like democrats THINK they are democrats, rebuplicans think they are republicans
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Iraq would descend into chaos, but what is it now? Is achieving some semblance of "victory" even possible now?
mabey you dont know our intentions over there. I dont exactly, but I think its to help from what sadam hasdone, and to stop terrorists. Victory is peace, and unfortunatly bort, us pulling troops out is not peace before it would be death. However Keep in mind, our troops out there is one side of the double edged sword. The other would be to let terrorists run freely.
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Is all that's keeping us there now some sense of belligerent pride rather than the actual hope of creating a shining beacon of democracy?
no thats not all. Although its kind of DIFFICULT to do the job we are attempting to, when a bunch of idiots in the world are like against it. Whats so WRONG IN TRYING TO FIND TERRORISTS????
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I don't know. For now I'd say we have to stay under the you broke it you bought it rule.
]I've once said, we would have rather have built a crap load for them instead of being forced to spend on military operations. But, the moneys spent and its not any easier with people who have a problem with hunting terrorists.
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We need new leadership, though. Does Mr. Kerry have a good plan? I don't know.
vote kerry then, do EVRRYTHING YOU CRY YOU cant do and VOTE KErry.. bort.. GO ahead. He certainly will do better than Bush huh? (you know.. lol) Usama may laugh and call us foolish again if the entire operation changes. Unless Usama is dead.
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I don't know if there is such a thing as a good plan with the situation the way it is now. Mr. Bush certainly doesn't, though.
bort shut! Your not awsome like I said you were. If you were a president or congressman there would've been a whole bbunch of people crap mouthing you like you crap mouth bush. (IF THEY were still living
Infact theres a PERCENTAGE that if your mentality was in the higest admin chair, that america would be slaves. a percentage and no theres no way to see it on microsoft office charts, but the percentage is there bort. Amongseveral other catagories of wins, losses, deaths, equality, ect.. There possibility rates and Theres no way you can say that your mentality would win the war, or take measures of greatness like achilles political style.
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Is this worse for the US than 9/11? How do you quantify tragedy? Was one of the towers going down worse than the other? Were the towers worse than the pentagon? It's a tragedy and it hurts the US and it hurts the Iraqi people and it hurts the Arab world and it hurts the whole world. Do we need to play "rank the evil"?
See foot note 796 87 bravo aproximatley 20 lines above so I dont have to reply to the same thing similarly twice.
no offence intended, just political debate type of stuff between 2 politicly worthless americans in this format of our national government.
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All things are possible with God.
Nothing is possible without God.
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted May 21, 2004 09:29 PM |
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I, diferently than you among others, dont nessesarily claim to know the imediate solution.
Clarrification, as childish retorts may now, not be applied.
No bort, you claim to not have "the" imediate solution (probably interpreted the total awnser), infact I observe many "i dont knows" although my implication rests beneath a vauge series of words. You dont know the imediate solution but you know what would have been best :ini: or better for the nation.
And also you claim to see many small solutions while at the same time you speak of this.. "i dont know" the entire solution.
There lies my intentionaly spoken claim that others "claim to know the imediate solution." where imediate is an assosiation of small and fickle details which inturn effect what is the main solution.
Keep on keepin on with ideals, signitures, statements, BELIFES (hahaha) and most of all, your very worthy critisizm to everything you BELIVE is wrong.
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All things are possible with God.
Nothing is possible without God.
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted May 21, 2004 09:43 PM |
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You know I suppose rudeness does not justify a rude response, and generally such a response is not in my character, but right now I'm feeling pretty rude toward you Celfious. At the very moment bort is throwing up his hands and proclaiming he is bereft of any good answers in his own heart, of doing what he could but not enough, of originally believing the war with Iraq was a good idea but now looking through his fingers in despair because he does not know what to do or believe, you accuse him of claiming to "have all the answers."
Where do you "get off" attacking such a heartfelt, soulful, sincere post like that, man? Does your "right wing Republican" echochamber mentality so blind you to a person's confession of ambivalenace that you can't even see it for what it is????????????
Go ahead and come after me for this. You've just proven you'll come after someone for just about anything. Be my very rude guest. And count on it that I (no doubt among others) will completely ignore yor "ignorant, ill-informed" response, as I should have ignored this one were I only a bigger person.
<EDIT>
P.S. By the way one more thing:
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I am disgusted in such ignorance, arrogance, and the claims of so many men that they are sooo right. To the point of activists uniting and signing papers.
Oh, yes. How DARE people have the AUDACITY to participate in the political process if they disagree with you.
I wouldn't crow too loudly about somebody else's arrogance if I were you, "my friend."
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted May 21, 2004 09:56 PM |
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Bort, I just wanted you to know that your post brought tears to my eyes because it so articulately expressed precisely the way I have been feeling lately. My own level of frustration over this whole situation is also becoming unbearable.
But that's not why I defend you. I would have defended such a heartfelt post if came from anybody, even Celfius for that matter. But that's not what he was doing. His was an outright attack against the expressed feelings and opinions of somebody in specific: just happened to be you this time.
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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madmartigan
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
who will never walk alone
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posted May 21, 2004 10:28 PM |
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quote from Khayman's sig:
"When you live in the greatest, most powerful country on Earth, sometimes it is hard to be humble." ~Me
well, that says it all. If you are powerful, you are. You do not need to find excuses for what you did. What is done in Iraq and Afghanistan is done, and what is being done in prisons is being done. And there is not a signle piece of chit that the whole world can do against it. US bombed Iraq for personal purposes, or just for fun. So what? Do you have anything, anything at all, to do? NO. A big freaking no.
I find it quite funny that the nationalist US citizens still try and and find excuses to justify the attack on Iraq, and for the inhuman actions in prisons. They say they woud bring democracy, freedom, saddam was evil... blah blah.
Would anything be different if it was US who were the evil, attacking on the angelic Saddam? NO.
US is powerful, good or evil, moral or not, justified or not, with or without any reason they have the power and ability to invade any country they want, torture anyone whom they want. And there is not a single thing that the whole world can do.
Then why all this fuss is about? Who gives a phuke about all these speech about humanity and justice? Just stfu and learn to live with it.
And for the nationalist US citizens who think that US had/has justified reasons to attack Iraq, Saddam or whatever...: please stop defending Bush and his politics. Just say, "we did it. So what? What you're gonna do about it?" It will make you look less ridicoulus and stupid. referral: Khayman. See, he is the best example. Actually, I applaud him for his honesty. It seems to me that he is the only one here among all of you who have some sense at all. I belive he is the only one among all of you who really is aware what is going on, and seeing the truths. He does not come up with stupid reasonings and excuses like all you do. He, I believe, is the only one who is not blind to the truth that whole world sees, but you cannot. *stands up and applauds Khayman*
BACK ON TOPIC:
As for the tortures that are performed in Ebu Ghraib (or whatever) I do agree that those who perform those actions are inhuman. And back to the square #1: SO ...... WHAT? 9/11 was inhuman, Hitler was inhuman, suicide bombers tbat terrorize Israeli civilians are inhuman, Israeli troops that slaughter Palestinian civilians are inhuman, Saddam is inhuman and list goes on. We are living in a world that is being run by the "inhuman" that we have willingly voted for.
Afterall, maybe it is the "evolution" that is to blame. Maybe we are a MISTAKE in the evolution. Only god knows better (if there is one)
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 21, 2004 10:46 PM |
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Celfious, could you please make your incoherent brainfarts somewhere else? The Wastelands, a teletubby forum - anywhere else but here? Or write me some more of your lovely "I would kill you if I could" IMs instead? That would be nice.
Thanks in advance ...
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted May 21, 2004 11:55 PM |
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Gee I wonder why he would have gangs after him.
Don't suppose his hostile, confrontational attitude would have anything to do with that. Oh, no. Clearly not.
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bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
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posted May 22, 2004 12:04 AM |
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Quote:
And I think you know as well as I do about the devastating effect of the torture pictures. Every Iraqui citizen must have seen them by now, not to mention the other middle east states, all of whose people are carrying a deep distrust towards the United States. What prisoner´s information can possibly be important enough to counterbalance this? In my view, not even the capture of Saddam Hussein would have been worth it (in the hypothetical case that he had not been captured already).
How can you fight terrorism by making sure that the other countries hate you? That is likely to lead to more terrorism. If the USA is hostile towards arabs, the of course the arabs will be hostile back.Someone has to start acting like a friend, for friendship and peace to start growing. What kind of friend invades your neighbour country and humiliate and torture your peers? Is this what the greatest and most powerful country on earth thinks is good?
..makes me sad 
The more I think about it, the more the absurdity of the entire situation grows. If you want peace with someone, you have to make him your friend, or kill him completely, or lock him up. I'm afraid the USA has chosen a dark path.. lets hope we can work together again to fix it all some day.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted May 22, 2004 01:56 AM |
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Quote:
US is powerful, good or evil, moral or not, justified or not, with or without any reason they have the power and ability to invade any country they want, torture anyone whom they want. And there is not a single thing that the whole world can do.
Hey, madmartigan, that's the whole point here. But you know what I can do?
I can criticize, hate, attack, despise American policy and majority of Americans (that clearly support it); call them arrognat, stupid, inconsiderate, selfish, evil, without my eye blinking about it, cos it is the truth. And that, my friend, will lead to America's downfall.
I only care for those Americans (as you say) who delude themselves in fiercly defending US policy on moral grounds. How absurd! That's what we're discussing here. Even your "hero" Khayman defends it in the discussion (no matter what his signature tells).
And guys, please stop the insults from all sides. Especailly to Celf. This is not the way intellect wants to be transmitted.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted May 22, 2004 01:59 AM |
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Dear Private Hudson,
Quote:
You like statistics, then how about these, of the 803 words I wrote, you chose to concentrate on merely 35,or to put it another way, just 4% of what I actually wrote.
Oh, congratulations on your calculations first! But has it occured to you that the reason I concentrated on 4% of your post was that I agreed with the rest of it?! Do I have to disagree with all that you wrote and quote your entire letter in the manner of look-in-the-mirror?
Quote:
I heartily recommend you read/pay attention more than 4% (again, ish) of someone’s post before remarking on it in future, I mean I assume you didn’t read this bit since you certainly cannot have reached the conclusion you did about my remarks you did if you had.
You can be dead sure I read that and understood your point in that paragraph. However, the rest of it pretty much contradicts with it. So, i suggest that you make up your mind in showing your opinion clearly, instead of playing Hamlet and acting some sort of so called objectiveness or ambivalence. Do you think torturing is necessary or not? Do you justify it?(as it seems with WW2 comparissons, terming brutal methods as necessary (!!!) and the notice on "heat of the moment" justification) Do you think Geneva convention shouldn't (this is the keyword here; not "is") be respected and enforced? And last but not least, should high-ranking officers take any actions upon hearing that one of their soldiers had tortured captured soldiers?
I made myself very clear on each and every of these questions. While you employed a cold-warm tactic and to be frank, gave me the imression that "torturing is a common thing and we should not get too excited about it, unless it's widespread or done on innocent people." At the same time you discredited the Geneva convention with absolutely absurd arguments.
Argument 1:
Quote:
Geneva is theory that only works if the government is sanctioning the crimes in the first place. Outside of this it’s use is severely limited and rarely enforceable.
Lol. And now what? We all know that it works only if it is enforced by the government. And only because it has to be enforced by the government, that makes Geneva "useless".
Look, Geneva is not a Godly Code or some seperate element which influences the war. It is a set of laws which governments can choose to implement and enforce or not.
What the problem with USA now, is that they claim to respect it (which if they were, would bring the moral to their side), but at the same time they break it with their leaders applouding on the side, and that portrays them (rightfully) as brutal invaders and killers.
Argument 2:
Quote:
Perfect for peacetime and set-piece examples, next to useless in the real world.
Again, I can't see why it is useless, if it is enforced by the government.
Making that comparisson with WW2 is also out of place. Ignore the fact that it was an all-out war, a defensive war, and in a time when rule of law was not an imperative. Also ignore the fact that there weren't any apparent cases of torturing prisoners such as that on the tapes, except those done by the Nazis in their death-camps. (Were British stripping captured Germans and beating them to death?) Ignore all that, and still it remains: If such cases had happened (and they did, no doubt), it still wouldn't make them acceptable only because they had been done by the Allies.
In modern warfare it is essential for responsible governments to understand that leading wars with unneccessary means of torturing, murders of civilians etc. (in one word - War Crimes) is a barbaric and inhumane thing and any general or officer who practices that should be held responsible for such actions (either by International Courts or national governments), because they don't bring any military advantage for parties involved and even most important - human life and dignity are sacred. That is what I belive and I'd fight for, although I know this is the real world and things are not like this. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be and that we should leave reality as it is to play with people's destinies in a cruel and injustful way.
Before you make a mess out of your keyboard (and particularly the letters Q, U, O, T and E), I suggest that you think about how much we agree and just give a clear stance on the questions I asked you up there; and save everybody here time and energy form reading annoying comments directed against me (just childish comments and insults), because of our (oh, how absurdly does it sound) agreement on many of the issues discussed.
Yours friendly,
Svarog
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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khayman
Promising
Famous Hero
Underachiever
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posted May 22, 2004 02:51 AM |
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Half A Post For Now
Peacemaker wrote:Quote:
Please forgive me for being dense and all, but how do you really feel about this issue? Just for the record, I personally think people on all points of the spectrum are proffering good and reasonable arguments. But I don't understand your apparent presumptions about how these people came to be taken prisoner in the first place.
Sorry about all the levels of sarcasm and irony. First, let me just state the 'Rights of Prisoners' as defined the Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, then I will digress into my insignificant beliefs and opinions.
'Rights of Prisoners' as defined the Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War
1. The right to be treated humanely.
2. The right to protection from acts of violence or intimidation.
3. The right to their possessions, weapons excluded.
4. The right to food, shelter, and clothing.
5. The right to medical attention and use of hygiene facilities.
6. The right to intellectual, educational, and recreational pursuits.
7. The right to religious worship and observation.
8. The right to perform labor for pay.
9. The right to send and receive mail.
10. The right to make requests and/or file grievances to military officials.
That is as simple as it gets. You can find the unabridged version of the above information at the following location:
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm
Treatment of Iraqi POWs by American soldiers
It is obvious from the public photos circulating that the Iraqi prisoners were not treated humanely, which as you can see above, is a direct violation of their rights as prisoners. You will not find me justifying those American soldiers actions, because there is no question that they are in the wrong, no matter how you look at it...and they all will be punished accordingly for their actions, as we have already seen. The first American soldier was tried yesterday at a U.S. military court martial, found to be guilty of prisoner maltreatment among other violations, and was sentenced to confinement in a U.S. military prison for one year. Is this justice? I do not know that answer, but I do know that he received the maximum punishment for the crimes of which he was found to be guilty, as he should have been.
As for those Iraqi prisoners who were abused and mistreated according to those laws defined by the Geneva Convention...I could care less. I feel no sympathy for them whatsoever. Chances are, if I was in an Iraqi run POW facitlity, I would be worried more about seeing the sun come up again then anything else. Those Iraqi prisoners are being detained for one of three reasons:
1. They took up arms against U.S. and/or coalition forces during a time of conflict.
2. They were captured by force or surrendered of their own free will.
3. They were turned over by their fellow Iraqi's (local police, militia, or religious faction).
If you are an American and are feeling sympathic for those prisoners after viewing the photos, then I would recommend a nice dose of reality. Want to make it up to the innocent Iraqi people? Then I suggest you buy a plane ticket to Kuwait International Airport, try to hitch a ride across the border into Iraq to one of the war-torn neighborhoods, and volunteer your humanitarian services to the Iraqi local populus. I am guessing you would last about approximately a week or so before you are abducted and taken hostage. Wait, here's the best part...When you are abducted, make sure you request to speak with an Iraqi military official because you feel your Geneva Convention rights are being violated, and if that doesn't work, ask for your 'one phone call' so you can call your lawyer back in the States. If you need any more proof, look no further than Nick Berg, for whom I also have no sympathy. Please don't even get me started on that genius. "Hey, I'm an American contractor looking for work in a country with whom we are in conflict. Sounds like a good opportunity to make some easy money. Hey, wait, where are you taking me?" Ok, enough of that..
Gotta run, I will finish this post at a later day...no apologies.
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"You must gather your party before venturing forth."
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted May 22, 2004 03:19 AM |
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Quote:
call them arrognat, stupid, inconsiderate, selfish, evil, without my eye blinking about it, cos it is the truth.
I would love to hear how I'm...stupid, inconsiderate, selfish, and evil. But I don't think it belongs in this thread. And it's not the truth about the majority of people over here, so apparently, you're the ignorant one...
Good news out of Iraq for those ignorant Europeans and Americans alike...
Soldiers get wheelchair for Iraqi girl with Cerebral Palsy
From Lt. Col. Drew Ryan: In July we visited the town of Albu Hassan. Just outside of the Balad, Iraq Airfield, the villagers had suffered tremendously under the Hussain Regime. Their farm fields were taken from them for the airfield, with no compensation, and no jobs forthcoming from the base. The results were evident when we arrived -- rundown, ramshackle structures, inadequate electric, no plumbing, sewer, etc. We took interest in the school, which was likewise rundown and lacked basic necessities such as electric fans (to cool the sweltering 130 degree temperatures during the summer) or heaters to warm the cold mornings in winter, no running water, and virtually no school supplies. And all of this in a mud walled building with a palm thatched roof which birds often nested in. Not a place for education to prosper, and often the children left school after 5th grade because of the conditions, and lack of hope.
We found the money to rebuild the primary school and to build a completely new secondary school, complete with ceiling fans in each room, windows with glass and screens, lights, and new roofing. We watched as the construction progressed throughout the summer and into the fall, and began to deliver small gifts of soccer balls, pens, pencils, notebooks, maps, etc from individuals and groups back at home who would donate small (and some not so small) gifts for the students and the community. We became the "Hope" that Albu Hassan had lacked for so many years... and the teachers looked to us for small things, and we did what we could.
One afternoon we set a small medical evaluation station at the school for the students and local community members. The headmaster, Saghban Farhand Mohammed, asked me if one of the teachers could speak to me. Ms. Imman Habbeb A'acka introduced herself and explained that she is a single mother of two children, and her older child, Saffa, has Cerebral Palsy. Although Saffa was not a student at the school, she wondered if the doctor could evaluate her anyway. Our doctor did and although there was nothing he could do for Saffa, he later suggested that a wheelchair would allow Imman to take her daughter out of the house much more easily. Then the search was on.
Lt. Col. Drew Ryan (left) and Maj. Tony Davis (right) with Saffa and her mother
I contacted many friends back at home but nobody could find a used wheelchair. I then read an article in the Marin (county, CA) Independent Journal, about 3 doctors who were travelling to Baghdad to help re-establish the medical community. I contacted the author of the article who forwarded my note and request for a wheelchair to Dr. Ira Sharlip, one of the doctors who was scheduled to visit. Ira and I began regular email communication, and he was able to obtain a wheelchair from California Pacific Medical Center, through the help of Dr. Martin Brotman, President of the board of directors, and Jack Bailey, the Vice President of Operations.
I have since returned home from Iraq, but they are continuing the great spirit of service to the communities that we established during our year there.
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An amusing anecdote:
From Gary Sinise: "I took a trip to this school with Wayne Newton, Chris Isaak and country singer Neal McCoy. When I walked into the room, the whole class screamed, "Lt. Dan!". This mention of my character in Forrest Gump was very funny. Afterwards, I walked up to Wayne and said, "Well, I guess wherever I go, I'll always be Lt. Dan." Wayne replied with a big grin: "Yeah, Lt. Dan is your Danke Schoen!"
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First shipment in Operation Iraqi Children arrives
The first shipment in Operation Iraqi Children has arrived. Major Doris poses with two of the Iraqi girls who show off the stuffed animals included in their package from the Our Lady of Malibu school.
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Plaque honoring our soldiers at one of the Iraqi schools
"By the Grace of God, and the cooperation between the Free Iraqi People and the Coalition Forces, [school name omitted] has been rebuilt. This school is rededicated on Sept. 30, 2003 for the education of a new generation of Free Iraqi people. May this work stand, under God's Watchful Eyes, as a testament to the hard work and dedication to freedom of Iraq and the Coalition Forces."
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These things are from Gary Sinise's website, supporting aid to Iraqi schools. Something many of you don't realize is happening. This is why pulling out is wrong, these poor kids. What happens to them if we go?
Operation Iraqi Children
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted May 22, 2004 03:27 AM |
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This is so low. This is the kind of propaganda that makes me sick.
Sorry I should have added to the list uninformed and manipulated.
And anyone supporting Bush, for me (according to madmartigan's and my own logic), is surely one of those things, and in most cases more.
I guess you'd be in the "manipulated" cathegory (i hope only there).
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted May 22, 2004 03:30 AM |
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I posted the picture to show that it isn't made up. Wake up!
[mocking tone]This kind of propaganda makes me sick. [/mocking tone]Puh-lease
Maybe if you corrected that "rectal-cranial-inversion" you could see better, maybe even see the pictures this time...
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 22, 2004 03:33 AM |
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Why did you post those pictures in this thread? Did they torture the girl afterwards?
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted May 22, 2004 03:36 AM |
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Sorry, did I take the fun out of bashing Bush about Iraq? Consis says we should pull out becouse there is bad things happening in Iraq, there are good things too. Things are better than they ever were with Saddam in power. So it is on topic.
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This thread is pages long: 
