|
|
killa_bee
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
|
posted May 23, 2004 01:56 AM |
|
|
"Regarding the matter of Berg´s decapitation, I find the pictures that I´ve seen of it no less disturbing than the ones from Abu Ghureib. "
Lews, on one hand you see the humiliation of terrorists and rogue rebels, on the other hand you see pictures of AN AMERICAN CIVILIAN... CIVILIAN... CIVILIAN... murdered.
You find that no less disturbing than humiliation?
Let's take a step back to Columbine. Remember those two cowards that shot their school up and then shot themselves? "They were picked on alot at school." What defines getting picked on? Verbal abuse, physical abuse (throwin them in dumpsters, embarassing them, etc.) and so on and so forth. So you're telling me a picture of these 2 psychopaths getting thrown in a dumpster by "Mr. Smith," humiliating them beyond belief, is no less disturbing than the picture of "Mr. Smith" with 6 bullets in his dead lying dead flat on a desk?
Lews I had respect for the way you presented arguments and facts, but on the topic of humiliation vs murder I'm suprised at you. You do not repay humiliation with the murder of an American civilian that had nothing to do with the pictures whatsoever. Gimme a break man, and, with all do respect, get a clue.
Killa
____________
|
|
Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted May 23, 2004 02:04 AM |
|
|
Quote:
[...]Lews, on one hand you see the humiliation of terrorists and rogue rebels[...]
To get yourself better informed, I again recommend this Amnesty International report.
____________
|
|
madmartigan
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
who will never walk alone
|
|
posted May 23, 2004 01:00 PM |
|
|
|
khayman
Promising
Famous Hero
Underachiever
|
|
posted May 23, 2004 04:11 PM |
|
|
MadMartigan wrote:Quote:
I APOLOGIZE FOR THE BRUTALNESS OF THE PICS...Maybe these will give you a small opinion of what "propaganda" is.
Mad, there is no need to apologize for reality. Some of those photos are indeed the cold, harsh, and unfortunate results of war and military conflict. Although I do not enjoy looking at photos of injured women and children, I appreciate the reality check the images evoke.
|
|
Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
|
posted May 23, 2004 04:48 PM |
|
Edited By: Consis on 23 May 2004
|
Request For Mods
Moderators please, Can you change those pics to a link instead? I don't want to keep looking at them when I come to this thread. Grotesque pictures of dead people is not something I wish to remember. Please, at the very least, provide only the links. This is making me sick to my stomach.
____________
Roses Are Red And So Am I
|
|
khayman
Promising
Famous Hero
Underachiever
|
|
posted May 23, 2004 05:21 PM |
|
|
Cries Falling Upon Deaf Ears
Svarog wrote:Quote:
I can criticize, hate, attack, despise American policy and majority of Americans (that clearly support it); call them arrognat, stupid, inconsiderate, selfish, evil, without my eye blinking about it, cos it is the truth. And that, my friend, will lead to America's downfall.
Only those people with a conscience care what the rest of the world thinks about the United States, and those people and their consciences are not running the United States' goverment at this time. Perhaps things will change a bit in the near future if John Kerry is elected (and holds firm on all of his campaign promises); regardless, the United States will forever continue to serve its own best interest and not anyone else's.Quote:
And guys, please stop the insults from all sides. Especailly to Celf. This is not the way intellect wants to be transmitted. 
For once, I will agree with Svarog and second this notion, even if I think Celfious uses too many mind-altering substances. 
____________
"You must gather your party before venturing forth."
|
|
madmartigan
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
who will never walk alone
|
|
posted May 23, 2004 06:51 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Moderators please, Can you change those pics to a link instead? I don't want to keep looking at them when I come to this thread. Grotesque pictures of dead people is not something I wish to remember. Please, at the very least, provide only the links. This is making me sick to my stomach.
Let me tell you that when I look at the pictures wolfman and alikes post, I do not feel the exact things you felt, but not very differently either.
____________
|
|
Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
|
|
posted May 23, 2004 07:25 PM |
|
|
Good things in Iraq, why would that make you sick? Oh yeah, because you're wrong...
Good things in Iraq far outweigh the bad.
Schools have been reopened. Hospitals are used now for the sick and wounded, instead of housing weapons.
Nevermind, I can't help it if you are blinded by your hatred for the US...
____________
|
|
Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
|
|
posted May 23, 2004 08:49 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Perhaps things will change a bit in the near future if John Kerry is elected (and holds firm on all of his campaign promises); regardless, the United States will forever continue to serve its own best interest and not anyone else's.
Thank you. You broke the illusion many democrats have that if Bush doesn't get re-elected, the world will be a happy place once more.
However, I can differ between a lesser and a greater evil.
The USA will serve its own interest forever. True, as long as it remains the only superpower in the world. This shifts the discussion to a more global level, which I started in my Euro-American War thread, but few are interested. It seems all people like talking about here (Euros and Americans alike), is Bush and USA and nothing else. Both Europeans and Americans disappointed me on this. 
____________
The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
|
|
madmartigan
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
who will never walk alone
|
|
posted May 23, 2004 09:20 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Good things in Iraq, why would that make you sick? Oh yeah, because you're wrong...
Good things in Iraq far outweigh the bad.
Schools have been reopened. Hospitals are used now for the sick and wounded, instead of housing weapons.
Nevermind, I can't help it if you are blinded by your hatred for the US...
lol. It might be true that the good outweigh the bad. The question is it is your blindness who created that bad which had to be outdone by the artificial good. School that are destroyed by the war are being reopened, the hospitals are used for the sick and wounded as a result of the war. And, yet, you call me blind. What a joke.
Unlike you think I do, I do not hate US. What I hate is your blindness. That you claim that the attack on Iraq was for a good reason, for the interest of a better world.
Khayman said:
Quote:
...the United States will forever continue to serve its own best interest and not anyone else's.
This is the truth that you are blind to. This, my friend, is not enough a reason for me to hate you/US, or any other person/country. "Serving its own interest" is what mankind is born to, you cannot hate a human or a country for that.
However, your claims that US attacked Iraq for the betterment of the world, and that US has done/is doing "good" for the world are just pathetic and funny. US, naturally, has done/is doing for the betterment of US - and for that I do not blame them.
____________
|
|
Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
|
|
posted May 23, 2004 09:33 PM |
|
|
So Iraq was better under Saddam you say? 2.1 million killed by him (that is a conservative estimate) and hospitals used to hide troops and ammunition instead of the sick. Yeah, that's a lot better.
You must love Stalin too...
____________
|
|
madmartigan
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
who will never walk alone
|
|
posted May 23, 2004 09:42 PM |
|
|
You will not stop it, will you? So, since I am not with US, I am against it, eh? Well, anyways, since I do not have neither the patience nor the will to attempt to explain myself to you - since I believe your stubborn beliefs will not let you to understand me - I will stop responding to you.
As a last note, I really am curious how you came up with teh conclusion that I think that Iraq was better with Saddam. As far as I recall, making conclusion without any supports, and directing irrelevant questions that look relevant is called demagogy. Whether I think Iraq was better with Saddam or not has nothing to with US' attacking Iraq is justified or not. You say US attacked Iraq for the sakes of "good" and "morality", I say that is untrue. Forgive me for I am unable to conlude from that I said "Iraq was better with Saddam". Please stop making stupid conclusions to get yourself into the higher place.
As an answer to your question. No, I do not think that Iraq was better with Saddam. But I sure do not think that it is any better after the invasion of coalition.
____________
|
|
Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
|
|
posted May 23, 2004 09:50 PM |
|
|
Quote:
You say US attacked Iraq for the sakes of "good" and "morality", I say that is untrue.
And you say I jump to conclusions...
When did I say that?
You completly ignore the good that comes out of Iraq, it's like a joke.
____________
|
|
bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
|
|
posted May 23, 2004 10:38 PM |
|
|
Quote:
It seems all people like talking about here (Euros and Americans alike), is Bush and USA and nothing else. Both Europeans and Americans disappointed me on this.
Talking is easy. John Nash proved a long time a go that the best result is reached if everyone does whats best for himself AND for the group. Debating that is pointless. The question is how to get there.
And the answer to that one is easy too. Eliminate the fear that some individual actor will go for his own interests only and not help the group. Call it uncertainty, chance, probabiliy or fear, its still the obstacle.
This world is crap compared to the world as it could be. But Im gonna do my ~80 years as everyone else.
|
|
Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
|
posted May 24, 2004 12:51 AM |
|
Edited By: Consis on 23 May 2004
|
As Bort Said,
"How do you compare tragedies?"
It's a good question Bort. I honestly don't know that I can compare. In my heart, the beheading of Berg is similar to 9/11. That's only my opinion. I think it's difficult to compare unless the historical numeric loss of life is used to antiquate it. However, as you have more accurately said, what is worse? One loss or many? Loss is loss, yes?
I don't think I can really compare so I won't because I agree with Bort in a way. I think my feelings about september 11, 2001 are still too fresh to be able to readily access them and run a by-the-numbers comparison. What I will do is what I like to focus on personally.
I am an american. I am proud of who I am and what my country has accomplished on many things in the world. Do I think we are the strongest country in the world? Do I think my economy is better or my military is better than other countries'? No, I don't. I think that in life, be it my country or someone else's, great tragedy is inevitable. When it happens we must all ask ourselves what we will do when the time comes. What kind of life do we lead? Would our decisions affect the lives of others? Can we make a difference? If we did make a difference then who would care? What would it matter if we died in the process?
These are the kinds of questions I ask myself often. It helps me remember that I am not a simpleton nor am I God. I think I keep a good perspective on what life has to offer. Where my choices go, I must ultimately accept those consequences. This is a good philosophy to me because it helps me feel responsible for myself and the lives of other people.
Much in the average way I choose to live my life, so too, do millions of other americans. We have aristocracy, homeless, and middle people just as in any other country.
The topic of the thread is "worse than 9/11?"
Why no one has brought the events of 9/11 forward during the debate is very confusing to me and makes it all one-sided. One of the things that happened on september the 11th, 2001 was heroism. Heroism in the face of great adversity. When the normal, average, everyday people saw the challenge before them, they chose to rise to meet the occasion. This happened in my country so I get to say "good job" to my country. If it happened in someone else's country then I would say "good job" to them as well. Americans are not the only ones who can be a Hero and Heroin.
One of the airplanes was meant to crash into some highly populated and nationally significant location and yet it did not. Why?
Flight 91 was an airplane of normal people. They didn't have guns, or missiles, or jets, or nuclear submarines. They weren't trying to say america was the best country in the world. They weren't Janet Jackson or Michael Jackson trying to get publicity to sell their latest albums. They weren't running for office, or in the military, or any of that heroic wannabe b.s. They were normal people with problems just like everyone else. They weren't better or worse. They weren't rich or poor. They had families, friends, and neighbors just like we all do, no matter what country you are from. When the passengers of Flight 91 discovered that they were going to become the next in a series of suicide planes, they made a choice. Their actions will never truly be known. I can sit here and tell you that they probably saved thousands of lives. Someone could argue back that they might have saved less. Someone could also argue that they didn't save anyone's life. You can believe what you want and I'll believe what I want.
I believe those people, who were normal, decided on that day, in that plane, and at that very minute that they should be heros. I think they wanted to save the lives of others. How many? We will never know. As for me, I believe they saved thousands or possibly more. That's the kind of person I want to be. That's the kind of person they were. I want to enjoy life in the best way I know how, with my family. I want to make memories with my kids and my friends. I want to do all this because someday I might be a Flight 91 passenger. Someday it might be up to me. Little, insignificant, worthless, nobody me. One day my choices could save the lives of all the people I love. And on that day, if it ever comes, I can die at peace with myself knowing that I was hero for a short time. I may not have been a hero all my life. I may have spent a lot of money to eat at a nice restaraunt with my kids and wife. I may have over reacted to the mess my kids made with the milk and eggs. But for one small day in one short time, I will have possibly saved their lives and the lives of countless others.
Were I in any other country my feelings would be the same. People don't have to die for the world to be a better place. They must live as my kids must live, as my wife must live, as my friends and neighbors must live. How will they ever have the chance to enjoy the things that I took for granted if I sat by and let the terrorists do what they wanted?
As for me, I can't say which is worse in the line of tragedy. Torturing prisoners, beheading innocents, driving planes into buildings. They are all dangerous to me. I deal with problems as they come. If I am put in a situation where my choices affect others then I will rise to meet the challenge just as the passengers aboard Flight 91 rose to meet theirs.
Here is a link to a webpage that describes the events aboard the plane on that day:
http://beamerfoundation.org/flight_93.html
I also have the book written by Lisa Beamer. It describes it in more detail. I'll add this part that is not included in the above website.
(copied from the book)
From the rear of the galley of a 757 to the front cockpit area is a distance of more than 100 feet.... Big men move quickly up a narrow aisle, accompanied perhaps by a flight attendant or two carrying coffee pots, spilling boiling water on themselves as they run. Some jump over seats to get as much manpower to the front of the plane as possible. A food cart is used to ram the enemy.
All around the airplane is filled with screams and commotion. Flight attendant Sandy Bradshaw is on the phone with her husband, Phil. "I have to go," she tells him. "We're running to first class now."
Elizabeth Wainio, who has just borrowed a cell phone from another passenger, is talking with her stepmother. "I have to go," she explains, cutting her call short. "They're breaking into the cockpit. I love you. Good-bye."
CeeCee Ross-Lyles is on the phone with her husband, Lorne, when the screaming starts. "They're doing it!" she yells. "They're doing it!"
Just what they were doing or how they were doing it may never be completely known. The cockpit voice recorder contains sounds of dishes shattering and other objects being hurled. The hijackers are heard screaming at each other to hold the cockpit door.
Someone cries in english, "Let's get them!" One of the hijackers frantically attempts to cut off the oxygen in order to quell the passengers' fight. Another of the terrorists tells his cohorts, "Take it Easy."
Pounding sounds on the cockpit door.....a male passenger shouts...more screaming! The plane begins to dive. The hijackers shout, "Allahu Akbar!" Papers rustle within the cockpit as the hijackers begin fighting among themselves for the plane's controls. "Give it to me!" One of them commands. Too late. The plane rocks from side to side and then flips over before streaking down, blasting a hole in the earth 50 feet deep. Thousands of gallons of burning jet fuel spray the trees, instantly scorching the tree line as though a raging forest fire has recently been put out. The airplane is obliterated....
United Flight 93 had not crashed into the Capitol; nor had it smashed into the whitehouse, Camp David, or any other national landmark. Instead, it crashed at 10:03 am on September 11, 2001 in an open field with only a stone cabin nearby and the closest home more than a quarter of a mile away.
(copied from the book)
Here are some pictures from the website that represent a very large portion of what I think americans are like:
____________
Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
|
|
Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
|
|
posted May 24, 2004 01:53 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Do I think we are the strongest country in the world? Do I think my economy is better or my military is better than other countries'? No, I don't.
Then, you're wrong.
Quote:
What kind of life do we lead? Would our decisions affect the lives of others? Can we make a difference? If we did make a difference then who would care? What would it matter if we died in the process?
Now what's the connection between the power of America and the life of the individual American citizen? None, Consis.
Quote:
Americans are not the only ones who can be a Hero and Heroin.
Oh, really. I didn't know that. And thank you for reassuring us that we can be as good as the Americans. Thank you.
And the funny thing is I agree with all that you wrote.
But I'm not sure if you can see where you've gone wrong.
____________
The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
|
|
Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
|
posted May 24, 2004 07:15 AM |
|
|
Apology For The Misunderstanding
Svarog,
Hey it's ok. I guess I forgot to say. That line about the heros not being american, it was meant for other americans. I wasn't saying it for you. I was trying to tell other americans who watch t.v. and only see american heros, that heros come from all walks of life and all different countries.
This reminds me of when Doomnezeu was saying that he had no reason to be proud of his country. I went and looked the names of several different kinds of heros that were from his country to show him that he had much to be proud of. That's all I'm saying.
And as for you telling me that my country is the strongest then you are wrong. Strength is relative. I hear too many people say this every damn day. It's nothing but a myth conjured up by a bunch of gung-ho nationalists. You think we are strong because of our economy? So what. Our economy is run by it's people who don't seek world domination. They seek civil liberties and better lives for their children. You think we're really advanced with missiles and stealth and all this military crap? We aren't. Our military is spread throughout the world. China has everything we have, a decent economy, and a military manpower strength three fold to ours. And their army is all in one place. Why don't you go call them the strongest?
It just so happens that I know why. I know all about your delusional dreams and fantasies of a revolutionary war between Europe and America. We'd have to launch a nuke for that to happen. Guess what, you don't have any launch codes do you? Aw, so sorry.
News flash Svarog, it isn't going to happen. So take your communistic-Fidel Castro-loving-socialist-revolutionary-war-conspiracies and sit in your cozy Macedonian house while trying to start a war that will never happen. It isn't going to happen. Get that through your head.
____________
Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
|
|
Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
|
|
posted May 24, 2004 10:18 AM |
|
|
I was rude to bort, peacemaker, and Lews therin.
I tried to say my point to bort a little to harshly and it was automaticly cut down which upset me. I should have realized my words were to harsh which can blind people from the point i was trying to make. Its just that when making major points to people (in this case bort) who already have their mind set because of belifes that are part of the same thing "left, an right wing" are a part of. Oposing ideas of MEN.
basicly.. i try to make evident that I am against Bort and the ideas he shares with die hard fanatics that no matter what, USA did everything wrong since 9/11. I definitly think we're not perfect, but Bort seems to think he knows what should've been done and I feel the statistics are way to unclear, as to wether or not his mentality would have brought "great" differences to the world as we know or the USA.
-alas another post sliped into forgotten winds
____________
What are you up to
|
|
DonGio
Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
|
|
posted May 24, 2004 10:47 AM |
|
|
I think the USA will not last forever. Of course it won't, you say. Or, maybe, of course it will.
People seem reluctant, at best, to learn from history. Empires tend to crumple. What looks invincible and untouchable one year, might not the next. The way USA is/are (?) acting, their downfall could be a nasty one. The arrogance and disdain they are conducting themselves with does not bode well for their continued existence.
I love this example. Couple of years ago, a new convention was passed. Nearly every country in the world signed up for it, saying "if our soldiers commit war crimes, we will execute them". The USA chose to do it their way: "We agree that if any one of your countries' soldiers commit war crimes, you should execute them."
Wolfman: So, you do agree that the only reason USA went into Iraq was because of their oil reserves? Or was it because of Iraq's massive stock of mass destruction weaponry?
Dixi
DonGio
____________
There are 10 types of people: Those who read binary, and those who don't.
|
|
bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
|
|
posted May 24, 2004 11:13 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Here are some pictures from the website that represent a very large portion of what I think americans are like:
Ugh.. now I have to watch those pics everytime I read this thread From a guy that asked the opposition to put links instead of pics this is a "one rule for you - for me another" thing.. not really heroic is it?
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
