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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted May 20, 2004 11:05 PM |
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I've Said This Before
Cut and ******* run! That's what we have to do Wolfman! We need to leave now! Get the **** out of Iraq! We have no business being there! American influence in the Middle East? Yeah right, what a ******* joke! ********* this is ******* rediculous! How many americans must die? We can't even control our own ******* soldiers doing these crimes against the prisoners! THEY SHOULDN'T EVEN BE OUR ******* PRISONERS! Only Saddam! I'm so sick of this ****!
We're drawing the world towards war against us. I say we get those soldiers home, pull out of Iraq, severely punish those idiots who tortured the prisoners, and beg/plead the UN to take over. Damnit we need to get out now! I don't want to hear this crap about not cutting and running. There won't be chaos because if I were president I'd be begging the UN on my ******* hands and knees to mend our Iraq invasion and occupation. There's going to be a puppet government that nobody really listens to come June. Argh, This war was not warranted! Afghanistan was all I supported and that's it! No other countries should be invaded!
Americans supporting not cutting and running(Dargon, Wolfman, The_Gootch, any others?) can argue with me all you ******* want! I don't give a ****! How many people are going die before you wake up! America has enough problems with our own damn unruly criminals like the ones torturing prisoners! We need not inflame the entire Arab-speaking world into uniting and going to war with us!
Bah, this is no good. I am doing no good ranting in here. I'm so humiliated and ashamed of my president. He will not lie to me and get away with it. Where ever there is a vote to be placed, mine will be there denying this ************* jerk another term of office. Not only that but I will ask at least two friends to tell their friends, and so on, to do the same.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted May 20, 2004 11:13 PM |
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Quote:
How many people are going die before you wake up!
How many need to die?
Here's a few stats for you...
Iraq, Saddam Hussein (1979-2003)
8/9 Dec. 2003 AP: Total murders
New survey estimates 61,000 residents of Baghdad executed by Saddam.
US Government estimates a total of 300,000 murders
180,000 Kurds k. in Anfal
60,000 Shiites in 1991
50,000 misc. others executed
"Human rights officials" est.: 500,000
Iraqi politicians: over a million
[These don't include the million or so dead in the Iran-Iraq War.]
Don't tell me Saddam didn't need to be stopped, I have more respect for you than that. Saddam needed to be stopped, and force was the only way. He was a malignant narcissist.
"[Malignant narcissists] are undetered by threat of punishment, which makes them singularly resistant to economic inducement, sanctions, or any other pressures short of force."
"Saddam exhibits extreme grandiosity, overconfidence, and self-absorption to a degree that renders him incapable of empathizing with the pain and suffering of others. He is devoid of empathy and unmoved by human suffering, which permits him to commit atrocities against his own people as readily as he is willing to brutalize his enemies."
"Malignant narcissists are cold, ruthless, sadistic, and cynically calculating, yet skilled at concealing their aggressive intent behind a public mask of civility or idealistic concern."
stat source
Thanks for censoring that 
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted May 20, 2004 11:26 PM |
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Oh Indeed
A fine kettle to stir your numbers in. Abhorrency of alphabit soup as it were...
You know what you can do with those numbers? Add them to the numbers released under projections for future Iraqi occupation and policing. Here let me help you it starts in the millions so I'll help with the zeros.
(X = Sum total number)
 X,000,000 dead from war with Arab-speaking/Islamic anti-american peoples(not including Spain and other such countries of Europe)
There's a rubber stamp, blank check, and whatever else you need to think about what Bush will do by staying Iraq.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted May 20, 2004 11:28 PM |
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What are you going to do then? Kerry says the exact same thing as Bush. Maybe you'll vote for Nader? If you want to vote on sticking to your principals, Nader's the choice for you...
Of course, with that blank check of yours, did you figure in the dead that would result from the US pulling out? Do you really believe a stable government will come into Iraq without any help? All the police will be killed, all the new Iraqi military, schools will be closed, hospitals will be used to house fighters and weapons...
Sounds a lot like it was when Saddam was there...
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted May 20, 2004 11:38 PM |
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Oh Yeah?
Let's take a vote on how many countries would be against us staying as opposed to how many would unwaveringly support our staying put. This vote is global too. It doesn't even matter what we americans think about this vote either. Let's ask the rest of the world.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted May 20, 2004 11:40 PM |
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I cant wait to smile at soime people in the after life. I dont even have much pride but Im sick of leftists and rightists SOLID yet opoising awnsers.
Consis: Lets also ask the rest of the world what actions they will take if a missle is on its way to the US too. And while we're at it, lets evaluate the effectivness of their actions of SAVING LIVES.
we are there to stop terrorists and help iraqis get on their feet after the evilness of sadam. What else are we doing over there? (give logical awnsers, dont even say anything like "we're bugging people") I'm not saying the USA is completely right I'm saying its likely we would be dead had we not intervened so much.
When the entire world gets together (dosnt mean working together it means we will coexist in our own homes without hatred twords another) then we'll beable to ask the world what it wants. I bet if I fought USAMA or his idiots hand to hand combat, I would get some seriously great licks on him, possibly KILL But his war is by far against the entire populations.
Anyways, I am glad all of you have the solutions and statistics that give undisbutable awnsers. You should go tell your congress now, oh wait, the government isnt the US its them. And your awsome words next to a million other peoples will never be heard as its all conflicting and hardly any is correct
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted May 20, 2004 11:46 PM |
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Not everyone can see the future like I can. 
But seriously, do you really think the world can cast a vote like that? Most people in the world are ignorant, that is a fact even in the US. It makes me sick, but it won't change.
I'm at school and people say "oh, he's smart" because I know who the leader of...Israel is. It's like a joke.
People can't vote on something like that.
I would let Celf vote, he seems to understand what's going on. Personally, I think Consis needs a wake up call.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted May 21, 2004 12:43 AM |
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Hmm..
I repeat what I have said before. Torture and similar acts are naturally to be frowned upon, but if anyone seriously expects armies to be able to totally enforce the rules of Geneva completely then they really need a reality check. To me there are two seperate issues here in regards to war and torture.
Firstly there is what you might call "offical" or "organised" torture. This to be frank is a more common occurrence than you see a government being forced to admit to. Clearly the allegations suggest that a considerable amount of this has occurred in Iraq recently. The question that is more important is who knew? Allegations have been made that Rumsfeld gave rather vague orders that could have been used to sanction these events, at the minimum it seems clear that some officers in Iraq may also have sanctioned the style of questioning.
Secondly there is what you might call "heat of the moment" events. The kind of thing where a soldier sees 3 of his best pals blown up one minute, and has one of the guys responsible for it surrendering to him the next. Whatever Geneva does or does not say, human nature often means the response of that soldier will not be to meekly accept his surrender. Try as you might, geneva or not, these events cannot be totally eliminated from our conflicts.
Which brings me to the problem of Geneva and similar. Whilst it makes fine practice, theory if you like, reality and practice means Geneva accords can almost never be enforced totally in war. Just imagine how often in WWII an allied soldier did this kind of thing? Iraq and recent conflicts are heavily reported on and are much more in the public eye, therefore we are bound to get the impression that these events are common, comparable to the Nazis even.
The problem is also twofold. Whilst the "official" torture should be frowned upon and acted upon as soon as it's revealed, it also, to an extent will always happen. As bluntly put by consis, this is the military and in some cases terrorists we're talking about. Asking nicely won't work, and whether we like it or not brutal methods are sometimes going to be necessary. However, as reports from aid agencies point out, many in the cells there are probably innocent. If the torture is as wide spread as we may assume, it's clear that not only is it brutal and disgusting, it is probably in many cases completely pointless also. Brutal methods that have a greater cause I could rationalise and accept to some degree, brutal methods against people probably guilty of nothing more than looting I could not.
"Unofficial" Torture is problematical. Frown upon the soldiers that do it without prior reason, in cold blood if you like, certainly fire them from the millitary. Frowning upon those who snap under pressure is unfair. Soldiers may be highly trained, but they are still human. Still, if those events are not sanctioned then it's hard to blame anyone but those individuals involved.
Torture is to be frowned upon overall, but it is unfortunately necessary in some situations. Geneva was written for ideal situations and by idealists that probably never had to deal with the reality of warfare. Perfect for peacetime and set-piece examples, next to useless in the real world. If we're going to cite Geneva all the time, then you can be pretty sure most modern wars have been fought with Geneva broken in every one of them.
The whole issue does cause the US a major problem and damages their role in the eyes of the inhabitants. Simply stating that Iraq is better under the US than Hussain isn't going to be enough any more clearly. The smearing of the US cause out there is going to loose them some support in the populace who's focus won't be on statistics but the pictures they see and the people they know have been detained by the coallition. As bad as 9-11? Chalk and Cheese as has been said, one damaged physically, one damaged the states in the minds of people.
Wolfman made the point though, pulling out now, would that resolve more problems than it would cause? I was never particularly in favour of invasion, but history would reccomend that leaving a job at this stage will result in a power vacume and anarchy. Sooner or later someone similar to Hussain will take charge again, and all these statistics we hear? You might as well have not have bothered, because if you let that happen, they died for nothing. Now we are there it is out obligation to do the right thing and make absolutely sure that when we leave, we leave a stable country. Iraq is not now stable.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted May 21, 2004 12:56 AM |
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(Just found thread -- posting to activate ROBOT)
I just want to point out one thing (without having read this entire thread yet)
In some Middle Eastern cultures, YOU JUST DON'T GET NAKED. PERIOD.
This might be "humiliation" to us, but it is a shame on the people involved much more extreme than people in other cultures might understand. This is a subjective reality and I posit that at best we were bending the rules of the Geneva Convention to use a tactic that people in the West might not think of as unbearable but that people subjected to it might think of that way.
I dunno if this is true or not, but I heard in our media a couple of weeks ago that Iraquis stormed the prison and killed the women prisoners at their request because they could not live with the shame they had endured.
Pass whatever judgement on that you wish, but remember you are doing so from within your own heads, not those of the "humiliateed" prisoners.
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khayman
Promising
Famous Hero
Underachiever
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posted May 21, 2004 01:28 AM |
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Keeping It Real
Perhaps those Iraqi prisoners should have "fought to their deaths" like the loyal soldiers they were touted as being by their uncompromising government. Then they would not have to worry about nekked photos and other miscellaneous fraternity-like pranks by a bunch of undisciplined, nasty, and immature Americans pretending to be soldiers. Obviously, those Iraqi prisoners were not willing to die for their cause, their leaders, or their government. Maybe they will get the opportunity again the next time the imperialistic United States decides to overthrow your government for its benefit.
Here's my advice to those Iraqi prisoners...Once you are freed from your humiliation and torture, sue the U.S. Government for mental anguish and punitive damages. Take your compensation, relocate to New York City, write a book about your harrowing experiences, and sell the movie rights to Michael Moore. Then move to Hollywood, where you can hang with your fellow movie stars and complain about the goverment.
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"You must gather your party before venturing forth."
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted May 21, 2004 02:18 AM |
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Quote:
Torture is to be frowned upon overall, but it is unfortunately necessary in some situations. Geneva was written for ideal situations and by idealists that probably never had to deal with the reality of warfare.
Torture is necessary? The torture we saw on those tapes was absolutely necessary?! I sure wonder what kind of vital information may torturing 90% innocent people give.
Geneva was written from idealists? OK, then, let's give it to the 19-year-old emotionally involved soldiers (with a realistic view on things) to write it. All those people involved in the creation of Geneva were experts in their field including many many military experts. So, Geneva is not crap.
I'm aware that it's impossible to totally respect its principles in any war. BUT, it is a responsible thing for responsible officials to prevent and punish if any such cases are found. Because they are absolutely unnecessary and brutally crewl. I can understand (and even justify) that sadistic behavior from the ordinary soldier perspective, but i still maintain that if any such cases come to the ears of higher ranking officials it is their immediate responsibility to prevent it and punish those involved. So, it might be justified from emotional point, but legally - NO WAY. Justice is blind.
Another thing. I employ all my atoms of energy to restrain posting on the Iraq problem, cos it has been so thoroghly exploited and all things have been said by members lot more informed and eloquent than me. I'm truly sorry that some people in the US still cant see the real essence of things, and are blinded by arrogance, patriotism and lack of information or knowledge. If I get in such discussion, we'll all end up with harsh feelings for each other and you know I love you all.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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khayman
Promising
Famous Hero
Underachiever
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posted May 21, 2004 02:35 AM |
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What Archbishop Giovanni Lajolo Was Really Thinking...
Quote:
The catholic archbishop Giovanni Lajolo has recently called the prisoner abuse cases in the Iraq a "more serious blow to the United States than September 11".
{Forgot about this prior to my last angry post}
Let me interpret the real intentions behind this quote for the masses...
"Thank God, if there really is one, that something more horrible has finally come along to distract everyone's attention from our priests inexcusable sexual misconduct and abuse of authority."
This is nothing more than the Catholic Church's way of misdirecting attention from their past and present negligence, which they have been doing for ages. I guess the Spanish Inquisition was nothing more than a lame fraternity hazing, huh, Archbishop LaJoko?
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"You must gather your party before venturing forth."
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 21, 2004 05:10 AM |
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Many different points to address here ...
problaby too many, considering that I´m at work right now.
Consis, when I use the word torture, I mean anything that is legally defined as torture, including sleep/warmth/food deprivation, sexual humiliation, and forcing people to wear bags over their heads for days.
You argued that the prisoner may have some knowledge that can possibly be of strategic value for your side. Szenarios like that exist not only in war, but also in normal criminal cases. Is it really your opinion that this kind of situation legitimates torture? Would you torture a criminal, or an enemy soldier, in the hope of some valuable informations?
In germany, the very first sentence (amendment?) of our constitution says that human dignity is inviolable. In my view this does not only apply to the enemy, who may be a most unscrupulous and cruel person, but still a human being; but also to the man who has come to the Iraq as a soldier, and may leave it as a torturer.
And I think you know as well as I do about the devastating effect of the torture pictures. Every Iraqui citizen must have seen them by now, not to mention the other middle east states, all of whose people are carrying a deep distrust towards the United States. What prisoner´s information can possibly be important enough to counterbalance this? In my view, not even the capture of Saddam Hussein would have been worth it (in the hypothetical case that he had not been captured already).
You may argue that only certain kinds of coercive methods should be authorized. But that´s a very slippery slope. When certain forms of prisoner mistreatment become accepted as standard procedures, and it comes to sexual humilitations and even death beatings, it´s hard to blame them entirely on the lack of maturity and discipline of the respective soldiers.
You also wrote:"The criminal was already a citizen of your country in most cases whereas a prisoner of war is someone of foreign citizenry who has pledged by oath of his own country to kill the people of yours. When a person takes an oath you will find it to be a very solid commitment. That is why they cannot simply be classified as a prisoner or criminal. They are classified as enemy combatants. This is a good name to describe the kind of person who has sworn to kill the people of your country."
How do you know that these people have taken an oath, and sworn to kill the people of your country? They are suspected of such a thing at best. You can hardly get this kind of knowledge without giving them a fair trial, which is not possible, because the 'enemy combatants' status is designed to deny them any fair trial! The 'enemy combatants' on Guantanamo Bay are people who have not "only" been stripped off any legal rights, but also some of the most basic human rights.
At last you wrote: This is being investigated. If a prisoner died as a result of their treatment then we are held accountable by the geneva convention. If this is not the case then it is dismissable.
I may be wrong, but I think the question is not if the prisoner has died as a result, but how many prisoners - apart from the four known cases.
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gorman
Promising
Legendary Hero
Been around since before 2003
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posted May 21, 2004 05:37 AM |
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Bah! All's fair in Love and War. Would you rather have the enemy beat and torment or w/e our troops? I'd say no, but the fact is that the Iraqi's did. What goes around comes around...do unto other's what you'd want them to do unto you, right?
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When all else fails... Take notes.... ALL the time... ESPECIALLY when playing D&D.... or Pokemon in my case
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hamsi128
Promising
Supreme Hero
tosser tavern owner
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posted May 21, 2004 05:39 AM |
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to wolfman
you told us numbers of death in saddam dictatorship... then why in the war time between iraq and iran usa sold weapons to saddam ? think 1 minute that you are a world citizen not usa citizen.. then wolfman you ll see the progress that your posts become more objective...
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quoting my post = bullet in your head
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted May 21, 2004 11:05 AM |
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Quote:
Torture is necessary? The torture we saw on those tapes was absolutely necessary?! I sure wonder what kind of vital information may torturing 90% innocent people give.
Hmmm, hypocrisy is alive and well I see? You like statistics, then how about these, of the 803 words I wrote, you chose to concentrate on merely 35,or to put it another way, just 4% (or thereabouts since you later remarked on Geneva) of what I actually wrote. Now lets look at what you ignored and see if it is relevant to your claims. For example this:
However, as reports from aid agencies point out, many in the cells there are probably innocent. If the torture is as wide spread as we may assume, it's clear that not only is it brutal and disgusting, it is probably in many cases completely pointless also. Brutal methods that have a greater cause I could rationalise and accept to some degree, brutal methods against people probably guilty of nothing more than looting I could not.
I heartily recommend you read/pay attention more than 4% (again, ish) of someone’s post before remarking on it in future, I mean I assume you didn’t read this bit since you certainly cannot have reached the conclusion you did about my remarks you did if you had. Which either means you didn’t read it properly, or are deliberately ignoring sections of what I said to make your replies easier.
Quote:
Geneva was written from idealists? OK, then, let's give it to the 19-year-old emotionally involved soldiers (with a realistic view on things) to write it. All those people involved in the creation of Geneva were experts in their field including many many military experts. So, Geneva is not crap.
Geneva was also written before modern warfare really got really nasty in WWII. Rigidly enforced, Geneva would have us arrest for warcrimes every officer involved in the second world war, and a lot of officers involved in conflicts since then. Geneva is theory that only works if the government is sanctioning the crimes in the first place. Outside of this it’s use is severely limited and rarely enforceable. You will note that I spoke generally of how soldiers should be punished (though not ostracised) for their heat of the moment events, and that I spoke of how official torture should also be punished.
If you wish to argue the whole justice is blind theory you’re just not living in the real world. If that had been enforced alongside Geneva rigidly after WWII then we’d still be conducting allied war crimes tribunals now, and after that we’d have to start on the entire allied army and political structures. Justice is not quite so blind as those who live in the ideal world…
Oh and if you’d read (again) more than 4% (ish) of what I said and digested it you’d have noticed that the remarks in your “I'm aware that it's impossible” paragraph aren’t really relevant to me since I have already stated pretty much exactly the same thing.
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melissa_X
Adventuring Hero
Tiffany Taylor
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posted May 21, 2004 11:12 AM |
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rob made me post it
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Trogdor
Legendary Hero
Words in a custom title
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posted May 21, 2004 12:43 PM |
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This has gone off topic with that pic of yours. Now back to where we were up to. That crap about the tortures. People have gone too far lately. 9/11, The Iraq soccer team jailed for losing, that show with that Miriam snow, Paris Hilton, now these photos. They are getting off too lightly. Should have given them the death penalty. Same thing happening to David Hicks at Wantunamo bay. Did I spell it right?
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"Through the power of the dollar you can communicate with the dead." - Artu
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madmartigan
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
who will never walk alone
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posted May 21, 2004 12:58 PM |
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Quote:
Iraq, Saddam Hussein (1979-2003)
8/9 Dec. 2003 AP: Total murders
New survey estimates 61,000 residents of Baghdad executed by Saddam.
US Government estimates a total of 300,000 murders
180,000 Kurds k. in Anfal
60,000 Shiites in 1991
50,000 misc. others executed
"Human rights officials" est.: 500,000
Iraqi politicians: over a million
[These don't include the million or so dead in the Iran-Iraq War.]
May I ask where did Saddam get so much power and weapons from? I do not think he killed a million people with his bare hands. He used Weapons of Mass Destruction. I believe that Saddam did not manufacture those weapons. He traded his oil for the weapons. Who bought the oil? Who gave vicious weapons into the hands of a dictator/tyrant?
You give a gun to a murderer. When he kills someone, who is to blame? Yes, the murderer IS guilty. Don't you think the one who gave the gun to him is not as guilty as the murderer?
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Shirastro
Famous Hero
Happy happy joy joy
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posted May 21, 2004 01:37 PM |
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Whats really funny to me is the fact that some americans actually belive that this war was about saving lives..... he he
Bombing for peace is like fu****g for virginity.
What a beautiful world.
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And now to the next post.
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This thread is pages long: 
