|
|
Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
|
posted May 25, 2004 04:04 AM |
|
|
One thing I say is: We mustn't forget about things and escape from responsibility for our actions. I don't think Germans are that protective about Nazism as you as an American individual are. In fact, as far as I know, Germany is fully aware of its mistakes of the past and gives its best not to repeat them, to hold the memory of the madness that once ravaged with the people's minds. Not to be understood wrongly, I do not say the German people were guilty for all of the evilness of the time, but letting them to be manipulated by certain crazy individuals, certainly bears part of the responsibility. And what I'm saying has nothing to do with the German people of today. Any present-day German guy isn't at all guilty of the evil of WW2. However, the remembrance of those times as a bad dream must remain in the Germans' collective conscence. And only stupid people that have subatomic brains may connect Germany of today with Nazism. Wouldn't you say so, angelito?
Quote:
But, this is happening. Why would you not think so? We are prosecuting each soldier and officer responsible. They will pay a heavy price for their lack of discipline. Surely you know this to be true?
Oh, come on Consis. You can't have justice when there's both the judge and the perpetraitor in the same person.
____________
The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
|
|
Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
|
|
posted May 25, 2004 06:08 AM |
|
|
Svarog, you are absolutely right to hold America's feet to the fire on these issues.
But you are wrong, I think, in believing that the people responsible for the atrocities at hand are not being held accountable.
Most Americans who have any sense of world events realize that the ills perpetrated on those prisoners have outweighed most of the good we have done in Iraq in the eyes of the global citizenry. So now, hold yourself to your own level of confessed objectivity and understand that the United States, the citizenry at least, has every intention of assuring that these people are punished.
You needn't give me a speech about the fox watching the henhouse. I know enough first-hand about administrative and military justice to tell you, as a former personnel judge for my own employer, that we justicial officers are objective arbitors who hold everyone accountable for their actions. PERIOD.
You start accusing the JAG of being corrupt and biased, you may as well confront me to my face and accuse me of the same. I hope by now you will know better of me.
That's just not the way things work over here no matter how poorly you think of this country.
And you should know by now, my friend, I have plenty of complaints about this country myself, so this isn't coming from some "flag-waiving bias" of my own.
____________
I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
|
|
Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
|
posted May 25, 2004 06:58 AM |
|
Edited By: Consis on 25 May 2004
|
Here! Here!
........applause..........
Edit: JAG = judge advocate gorilla?...gametes?.....gellatin?...gang?
____________
Roses Are Red And So Am I
|
|
Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
|
|
posted May 25, 2004 07:45 AM |
|
|
No but seriously tho too many people from diferent countries that never been to the states or just visited the states a few times, THINK we ALL support EVERYTHANG the president or our govt does.
Everyone i know dont support everythang the president did & it's not just one person.
People need to think before they pass on judgement condeming other people in hate.
Hate causes war.
____________
Dreaming of a Better World
|
|
Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
|
|
posted May 25, 2004 01:40 PM |
|
|
Dear Peacemaker
Quote:
Most Americans who have any sense of world events realize that the ills perpetrated on those prisoners have outweighed most of the good we have done in Iraq in the eyes of the global citizenry. So now, hold yourself to your own level of confessed objectivity and understand that the United States, the citizenry at least, has every intention of assuring that these people are punished.
Unfortunately, that's not the impression I got from the majority of posts in this thread. There's a certain silent reek of justification in the air. Like almsot people would die to belive their boys there did nothing wrong. 
Quote:
You needn't give me a speech about the fox watching the henhouse. I know enough first-hand about administrative and military justice to tell you, as a former personnel judge for my own employer, that we justicial officers are objective arbitors who hold everyone accountable for their actions. PERIOD.
This is not corruption we're facing. Compared to other countries, in USA there's virtually no corrupted administration. (Thanks to you, Peacemaker. you got every damn judge under personal control  )
However, the world of big policy is an ugly one, honey. Laws that apply for the mortals, don't apply for the gods. "Higher powers" are in charge there, powers that ordinary citizens like us haven't even got a chance to influence on. Trust me, watching the world and its leading role actors from far away does help.
I have no doubts that you and many other good and sensible individuals like you would bring the righteous decision, if they had the chance. But those things just won't come low enough for you to have any kind of grasp on them. If few men are in the position to lie to the entire world about the fictious existance of WMD and none did nothing about it, then I have no reason to believe this time it will be different.
Quote:
That's just not the way things work over here no matter how poorly you think of this country.
That's just not the way things work out here no matter how highly you think of your country.
____________
The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
|
|
Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
|
|
posted May 25, 2004 05:23 PM |
|
|
Svarog, my friend -- LOL!!! I was just coming up here to see what you had to say, and you made several of the points I thought you would.
The thing I most anticipated was your pointing out an apparent "justification" in this thread for actions taken by the MP's in the prison. I really think a reasonable person can interpret some of the things said in such a way to create an ambience of justification.
But I also agree with some of those explanations about how this could have happened. Fact is, any one of us, including you and me, would be capable of acting exactly the same way under the same circumstances. But Svarog, an explanation isn't an excuse. To say that any of us might have done the same thing does not make it right.
You get into a war situation where you have been fighting and blowing up and being shot at and these people who are your prisoners represent (in your own mind at the moment) those who are shooting at you and perhaps those who flew planes into the tallest buildings in your country and killed a couple thousand people. You are young, and have at best, a lack of guidance, and at worst, an implicit license from your commanders to do "whatever is necessary." So you take your frustrations out on those who are your captives.
It happens, Svarog. Does that justify it? Hell no. It may very well signal the start of World War III. It may well be the defining moment of an entire episode in history that brings about more suffering and horror than any of us could possibly imagine.
In my mind, these explanations that appear in the thread aren't implicit justifications that "our boys" (don't forget the smirking girl) cannot do anything wrong. On the contrary, it is an explanation that they can do wrong. Just like everybody else. Nonetheless, they did it, they were soldiers from this country, and we are walking a tightrope that their stupid actions might just have pushed us off of. That I can understand how anybody can do something incredibly stupid does not lessen my rage at the fact that they did do this incredibly stupid thing.
But Svarog, this is my main point to you at the moment. Those of you who have legitimate gripes about the United States, such as yourself, lessen the credibility of those very legitimate gripes by letting a pervasive prejudice against the United States contaminate your views and opinions about practically every aspect of the country and its actions. As one friend to another, I have battled with the same problem myself most of my life from within here. I have tried to learn to give credit where it is due, both positive and negative. If you do that then you will probably find, as I have, that people will trust your views and take your observations more seriously because they don't just discount everything you say as an "America-hater" whose perspective is so warped that nothing you say has any value. The point is, the more objective you become, the more persuasive impact you have on those around you. And we need people like you around to represent a sound voice concerning those very legitimate gripes, but we need you to be persuasive or else nobody will listen when you are saying something incredibly important.
As to your response concerning my very defensive comments about JAG and administrative matters last night, well I am afraid you are right that the trajectory of the political infrastucture is a chess game far beyond the more pristine view I have of things down in the trenches here. However, right here in our media there are rumblings about ambiguous guidance leading all the way up to Rumsfeld himself. So it's not like everyone is just completely turning a blind eye on it. Now whether the whole story comes out and the situation is completely addressed or not in the end, that's a different question. Anyway, I probably came across as pretty naive, but I'm not. I was just angry at the moment. You know how that goes.
|
|
angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
|
|
posted May 25, 2004 06:11 PM |
|
|
Hmmm...Svarog asked me to say something about the current situation in Iraq and the meaning of this war itself.
As i said in another forum here, itīs hard for me to talk about things with so much feelings, wishes and anger, but NOT using my native language. My english is far away from being that good so i can really express what i would have to say about that stuff.
My comparison with Germany wasnīt only because of personal issues, but because i really believe that there are similar situations.
Do you really think, that ALL iraqies loved Saddam?
Do you really think that any group of iraqies would have had a chance to create an opposition against Saddam?
Do you really think ALL iraqies would hate the united states, if someone would have told them some TRUE things about USA?
And now change the word iraquies with germans, then you know what happened in ww2 here in Germany. If you have no democracy, you were not able to change something in your own country without help from others.
And Svarog, please donīt mention Cuba now, coz they defeated a devil (batista) and earned an archdevil (castro). Why do you think that all cubans who had the chance to leave their country at least ONLY FOR ONE TIME and visit another country, are AGAINST Castro?
Because then they have been able to make their OWN experience what the world outside of Cuba is about. And we all know, that the world isnīt that bad like castro tells them all the day...
But which is the right way to help?
America knew from the ww2 and did nothing at the beginning. After Pearl Harbor, they went in and did "their" job.
Saddam Hussein didnīt change from an angel to a devil within 1 year.
But it needed a disaster like 9/11 (and it was an unforgiveable act in my opinion!) to get the USA up from their chairs to do something against those terrorists.
Iīm not a politician nore a diplomat, but i think the best way to show the iraqies the war was NEEDED (still i donīt think it was, but we canīt turn back time anymore..), is to show them the real world outside of Iraq.
But itīs a delusion to think, they all will change their mind within 1 year. Coz this "mind" was drummed into them over many years.
As a conclusion, i want to say, that on the one hand, iīm with the usa that they want to help people to make THEIR world a better one. They did that many times in the past.
But on the other hand, i think they could think about MORE democracy when it comes to things THEY belong to.
Why is it so hard for the USA to accept a majority which is DIFFERENT from their opinion?
Talking about Kiyoto....????
Talking about DenHaag....????
Talking about Palestine...????
Talking about France when they didnīt want to participate on this war, america changes the name of some food....????
This is why so much people think the usa is arrogant.
If someone has the same opinion as the USA (like Britain in recent times..), they are well seen and can be friends. But beware to have different opinion....
Show us MORE flexibility in these things, and we could harmonize better....
I hope, none of my words are written that wrong , so someone could feel offended.
If so, it was not intentioned.
|
|
Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
|
posted May 25, 2004 07:00 PM |
|
Edited By: Consis on 25 May 2004
|
Angelito,
Your grasp on the english language is good. Your post was a good post. Thankyou.
Also, this should be said in the spirit of the real truth. Changing the name of fries from "French-fries" to "Freedom-fries" did nothing. The restaraunts still say "French". The people who want food still ask for "French-fries". I do the same. I respected France's sovereign decision as an honorable member of the U.N. So too, do most of the people of my country. Ofcourse you will find some who hate the French. But they don't matter. Nobody truly cares about the "Freedom-fries" and nobody says it either. So it was a childish thing for my government to even think to do such a thing as change the name of commonly known "French-Foods".
**special note**
I am fully aware that many of the foods americans call "french" aren't truly from France. This is the way it is. Some are and some aren't but the word "French" is still used no matter what the government says.
____________
Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
|
|
hamsi128
Promising
Supreme Hero
tosser tavern owner
|
posted May 25, 2004 08:56 PM |
|
|
in next election if bush gets more then %20 of the votes ... there will be a problem... better to check education system in usa if people votes for bush..
**watching news** : usa crafts bombed a village becus they suspected that the village is a rebel base...
**reality**: there was a wedding ceremony in that village and youngsters fired to the air(tradition) to celebrate new married couple... usa ''suspected'' and erased whole village... associated press news of yesterday... i wonder if all americans knows reality there or they watch only what showed to them ?
____________
quoting my post = bullet in your head
|
|
Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
|
|
posted May 25, 2004 09:41 PM |
|
|
probably not all, hamsi. But around here theres a slogan dont belive everything you see on TV.
Mabey there should be a similar one in all areas. I mean, your confined to your enviroment, you cant belive everything people say
____________
What are you up to
|
|
drlucifer
Adventuring Hero
The Surgeon of Death
|
|
posted May 25, 2004 10:10 PM |
|
|
Concerning American education-
I have seen polls that show that the further someone has gone in education (high school dropout, bachelor's degree, doctorate) the less likely they are to support Bush.
____________
Doctors are not necessarily your friends.
|
|
Asmodean
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
|
|
posted May 25, 2004 10:11 PM |
|
|
No, I can back up Hamsi in saying that TV news here is saying the same thing.
I don't think that should be in dispute.
There is no dispute.
What he's asking is if and how this incident was reported through the USA news networks, and what the reaction is.
Is it a case of 'oh well, inevitable mistakes will happen' or is it 'we are sorry and will try and do better'?
Or something different.
You tell us.
____________
To err is human, to arr is pirate.
|
|
Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
|
|
posted May 25, 2004 11:15 PM |
|
|
Common Sense
If someone has invaded my country, dissolved my government, and occupies my entire country with their military then I would not be shooting into the sky of a wedding, especially if there were foreign helicopters flying overhead.
I used to fly in helicopters(UH-60's), if someone started shooting at me while a wedding was going and I was flying over then I'd request permission to return fire. From that point on I would follow orders. Orders of that nature normally invovle strafing an open field near the area to scare the innocent people into running away. Comabatants usually run a lot slower with their rpg's and ak-47's. I'd watch closely, switch to scope, and use precision sniping with my GAU-7 to find the enemy running with a weapon. I'd then ask again for permission to fire. After that, if ordered to, I would fire single shots while guiding the pilot in conjunction with my aim. Automatic and semi-automatic firing is ordered by the squad commander. If you fly in a helicopter, then that would be the highest ranking officer such as the pilot or copilot. Only he or she can make the call at that point. They usually ask the gunner before making the call too. Such as, "Can you hit him with single shots airman?" My job as a gunner would be to give the commanding officer my best advice knowing that my mission was not to spray a crowd and minimize collateral damage. Soldiers have a responsibility to use their best judgment even though the officer is ultimately responsible. That's how a good team works. Good communication, discipline, training, and trust.
Taking up arms qualifies you as an enemy combatant. It's a choice. Self defense comes first when being shot at, and that's even if such a thing actually happened in the way the news said it did. I don't believe the story anyway. We big bad americans don't simply brutally level villages. Propaganda is an easy predator on the weak-minded. If you believe it then you're a patsy.
____________
Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
|
|
Asmodean
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
|
|
posted May 25, 2004 11:25 PM |
|
|
Asmodean's makeover.....bring out Patsy!!
Sorry Concis.
I wasn't casting blame on anyone. Just wanting a straight answer about what the American news coverage said.
I think Hamsi's from Turkey right?
And I hear both the British and Irish press here.
So I don't think it's propaganda when 3 nations press are repeating it.
And then I got mildly insulted (I don't mind) and you dodged around my question with your helicopter monologue.
I am not out to get the big-bad Americans here. I just want a straight answer.
____________
To err is human, to arr is pirate.
|
|
Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
|
|
posted May 25, 2004 11:32 PM |
|
|
dose anyone here just want to live in peace until natrual death? Well tough S*** theres terrorists who would rather tourture us to death rather than kill us.
I can think of misc world chaning events if america had been crawling around like worms from some kind of gas, until death 2 days later.
I can also think of a few events that would happen if america were anything like the people we are after, and bombed the crap out of the whole middle eastern area.
Honestly, the world looks in better shape if middle east was wiped out, but see, we're not like the terrorists. And I remain amazed that so many of you who post here have the right awnsers. Its rather disgusting.
They are mind set blabbering fools, no offence.
You'll see.. You'll see
____________
What are you up to
|
|
Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
|
|
posted May 25, 2004 11:53 PM |
|
|
Celfious --
First of all, thank you for your public apology to several of us. As you know I IM'd you with an apology about having been rude to you, and people should probably know that. Once again, sorry, Celfius.
Second of all, I sense and share your frustration:
Quote:
dose anyone here just want to live in peace until natrual death? Well tough S*** theres terrorists who would rather tourture us to death rather than kill us.
Two sentiments I certainly share, as I'm sure many others do.
As for any of us having all the answers, well I kinda doubt any of us actually believes that. But many of us have heartfelt convictions because we care, and we really want to express them and see what others have to say in response.
Clearly you care as well. What are your ideas? If you express them, should we all believe you think you have all the answers? I don't think we would believe that, and you would probably agree that if we did we would be mistaken.
The whole point of this thread, this forum, is to put these various thoughts out there, knock them around together and find out what other people think. We all want some kind of resolution, we are all frustrated over our inability to do anything but talk, but that's what we're here to do. It should be safe for all of us to do that here, you included.
So please share! And if somebody accuses you of having all the answers, then just ignore them. You know that's not what you think.
|
|
Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
|
|
posted May 26, 2004 12:04 AM |
|
|
thanks for asking
well, when I say "all the awsners" I mean their belifes and convictions are truly belived in and some would bet their lives on.
For one thing, it is obvious that both or either sides in opposition are wrong. My belife is both sides are usualy wrong in more than one way, but they have some rightchusness aswell (meaning they are correct in some ways)
An example is people in america who say they are democrat or republican. Lets say 33% of americans are D, and 33% are R's. Dosnt this look obsurd when these 2 parties swear upon their life that they are correct? I could use any example where people like those who posted in here are so sure about what they say. (take it from socrates)
Its almost funny.
I opened a thread long ago something about a grassroot movemnet. Trying to bring peace to the world. I know a world flag wouldnt do everything, but it would be VERY symbolic if the world stood up to those old polititians saying all we want is life and this is what you are putting us through!
I dont think the ones in Iraq want war. I dont want war, and I doubt anyone in here truly dose. But its governments, and high powered terrorists that create havok in our simple lives.
____________
What are you up to
|
|
Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted May 26, 2004 12:07 AM |
|
|
Hmm, I do not fully agree with alot of whatīs recently been written.
First of all, the German people (our parents and grandparents) surely do have alot of responsibility for WW2 and the holocaust. Unlike most other dictators, Hitler came to power as a result of a democratic process, and his regime had alot of help from the not-so-small number of people who actively supported him, and from the very large number of those who prefered to look the other side when the Gestapo took Jewish families out of their homes.
I am not personally guilty for whatīs been done before I was born, but as soon as I identify myself with my country, I also take a portion of responsibility onto myself.
Regarding the torture cases in the Iraq, no, I donīt think they are typically American. But I do think that they are a direct result of their gouvernmentīs neo-conservative and nationalist ideology. And the behaviour of many Americans on this forum, who apparently neither have any understanding of the concepts of human rights, nor of what terrorism is and how/why it comes to exist - some of whom are even so stupid to post propaganda pictures with smiling soldiers+children+teddybears as a response, this behaviour suggests that the number of those who are willing to defend their ideology at all costs is larger than one would expect.
Today the German Financial Times and SPIEGEL report about an incident on Guantanamo Bay, that happened today: The military policeman Sean Baker took on orange clothing in order to play the role of a detainee. Somehow that must have lead to a misunderstanding, because this practice ended with him beaten and suffocated by some of his collagues, who apparently didnīt know his face. As a result, Baker now has brain injuries and a seizure disorder.
This camp holds people, who are no more than suspected of being terrorists, in a state apart from any rights, basic human rights included. They are held in small cages, given rotten food, humiliated and tortured. And I wonder why this situation does not lead to massive protests among Americans. Considering the nearing presidential elections, it surely would be possible to change the status quo into one which corresponds with western culture values.
____________
|
|
Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
|
posted May 26, 2004 12:44 AM |
|
Edited By: Consis on 25 May 2004
|
Lews_Therin,
Quote:
And the behaviour of many Americans on this forum, who apparently neither have any understanding of the concepts of human rights, nor of what terrorism is and how/why it comes to exist - some of whom are even so stupid to post propaganda pictures with smiling soldiers+children+teddybears
Look I'll be honest with you about something. When I see a man with an M-16 rifle strapped to his back and a 9mm/colt45 strapped to his side giving a child, in a hospital, some candy it makes me sick to my stomach. Those kinds of images reek of propaganda. It's so thick and rediculous in pictures like that. I hate those pictures. Soldiers don't win hearts and minds. They win and lose wars. I can't believe they were ordered to play with kids or anything else that is similar propaganda. You're right. It's total nonsense.
As for my understanding of what civil rights is, my country sets the modern day standard for civil rights movements. I'm proud of our achievements in civil rights. We still have much work to do on the matter. In case you don't remember, Dr. Martin Luther King jr. was an american. My country has it's fair share of problems. Don't even think about patronizing me over some civil rights. It seems to me that you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
As for my understanding of terrorism you seem to know all about it. Why don't you enlighten us and the rest of the world on what terrorism truly is. We simpletons can't seem to follow at the moment. Please forgive me of my uneducation on the subject. Apparently you've got the book and have a clear definition of the word. Hey that's great. Good for you if think you know all about terrorism.
____________
Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
|
|
Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
|
|
posted May 26, 2004 01:09 AM |
|
|
To Lews and Consis
Oh, you guys.
Many of us know you both to be very good people who are deeply invested in what you deeply believe to be the right outcomes. Please, pleasetry to remember that when we are all talking about this -- really good people are all over the map on this thing, and we are all trying. We are all angry. I do it myself -- I get angry, and make posts that show it. But like the mommy I am, I hate to see it in others even though I do it myself.
The ultimate irony is, it seems like you guys are closer on the spectrum of how you both see this thing than you are farther apart. The same is true for me and Celfious. And yet here we are, still allowing ourselves to get angy at one another.
Oh, my goodness.
Consis, I don't think Lews was trying to say "we Americans" don't know anything about terrorism or human rights. I think he was venting frustration at attempts others have made to try and point out the many good things some of the soldiers over there have done, minute, by minute, just like you and I would to if we were serving over there, Consis. There's nothing wrong with pointing that out, but many (apparently including both Lews and yourself?) take it as an attempt by those who make those posts as justifying everything.
I don't think posting those pics is an attempt to do that you guys. It's just a few voices saying we're not the demons we perceive the American haters making us out to be. Governments drive world politics by their own agendas, it's true, but there are good people, everywhere, trying hard to get the child out of harm's way, to make a difference. Americans are no different than Macedonians or Turks or Iraquis or Germans -- we're all the same in that regard, I truly believe.
It's so hard not to get angry when we are all so polarized. I love Celfious' notion of a world flag. I'll bet I'm not the only one. But whether that ever happens is up to each and every one of us -- and maybe, just maybe, it starts right here, right now, in the first few decades of world dialogue that we are engaging in right now. If we all (including me) keep thinking about one another with anger and responding to one another like this, we push that ultimate possibility further and further into the future.
Sorry to be preachy, you guys. I just have to send my best possible thoughts out right now and be they inconisistent with my own past ramblings or not, well, this transformation as to start somewhere.
So, let it start with us, right here, right now.
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
