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JollyJoker
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posted July 20, 2009 08:23 AM |
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Reason and logic.
Admittedly, that is less positive (what I positively believe), but more negative (what I do definitely NOT believe because it's contradictory, illogical or unreasonable). With those two I postulate thus:
If the universe is unreasonable (and illogical) and thereby totally chaotic, we can't say anything at all about it and every discussion and attempt to understand it would be in vain.
For all we know, however, by probing, it's neither unreasonable nor chaotic.
It's important to say that it is generally a lot easier to prove a statement wrong that to prove it right. If a statement has a flaw, you will sonner or later find it. If not, finding no flaw doesn't mean it's true. That's why I'm rather sure in some areas where I do NOT believe certain things because for me they have been proven wrong. I do believe positively in the worth of reason and logic therefore, because without them, EVERYTHING is believe and knowledge is an illusion.
That's why I haven't heard a good reason for why I (or anyone else, for that matter) should BELIEVE in something unreasonable or illogical. Believing in illogical and unreasonable things ultimately doubts everything we - as a whole - have established as certain knowledgebase in the course of our history.
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mvassilev
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posted July 20, 2009 08:32 AM |
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Quote:
Why do you believe what you believe?
Because I see no rational reason to believe in the unverifiable.
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Mytical
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posted July 20, 2009 09:07 AM |
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I've explained why I believe what I believe (but will do so again if needed). Do you think that that is unreasonable, illogical, or such? Presented with what one can define as evidence that a spirit exsists, which would lead one to conclude that the afterlife exsists?
I realise this thread is more about the Christian God then a more 'generic' (I hate to use the term) diety, however. Also I realise that presenting said evidence would be near impossible. That is not the problem however. Or not as I see it.
Whenever one talks about somebody who does not believe in a 'higher power' as having Faith..the backs go up, and they start hissing and spitting. What is Faith? Taking something with NO proof as an absolute. Since there is no proof that a diety does not exsist, it is indeed faith when you believe he/she doesn't. Yet we argue about one possible ideology instead of many.
If there is not a sliver of doubt in your mind, that is fine. Your beliefs are your own. If their is not, why continue the debate? You are not going to change a single person's mind who has no sliver of doubt in their mind. If there is a sliver of doubt, why not listen as well as talk? I will get back to this later.
I see things a bit differently then most. I think the Christian God knew that without the bad, one can not properly benifit from the good. As much as he would WANT to end evil, if he did man would never know GOOD. Manking would never have obsticles to overcome to grow. It is when man faces the darkness that he grows the most and the best of man shines through. So while ending evil sounds good in 'theory', he suffers the evil so that good may also exsist.
I don't believe in the Christian God, but not because he 'allows' evil. I honestly believe that there is a higher power, but it is not limited to being just a single religion. It is above and beyond that. A cosmic force that is good and evil, and neither. It keeps things going, but OUR job is to learn. To grow while we are in our mortal coil so that when we move to the next 'phase' of our exsistance we can truely appreciate it. Getting off of my topic, I appologize.
I think a lot of people misread (either intentionally or not) other peoples post. If they just are looking for a fight, or what, I do not know. All it takes is taking a step back, taking a break, and then come back and if something is bothering you asking honestly and respectfully what somebody meant before jumping to conclusions. EVERYBODY wants their side to be heard, but shouting into the wind while holding your ears is not the way to go. Before you post ANYTHING, remove anything that is personal and not addressing the ISSUES. Why cloud the issue with personal things? Even if you absolutely detest what the person is saying, does making it personal solve ANYTHING?
I want to make it clear I am not pointing to anybody, and that this is not addressed to anybody. Everybody, including myself, can take something from this post. If you don't want to discuss, debate, or actually have an open mind..then maybe you should just avoid the topic altogether. If your mind is completely made up, there is no point is there?
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Elodin
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posted July 20, 2009 10:01 AM |
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I want all sides to step back for a moment and answer what should be a rather simple question.
Why do you believe what you believe?
No quoting from books (of any kind), no 'because god (or whatever) does this or that'. Not something somebody else told you, but why YOU personally believe what you believe. Sadly I expect a lot of 'because it's the truth'..but I am hoping that this may actually get people to see each others views...
I began my spiritual journey as a child. When I became awakened to the fact that I was a sinner I responded by repenting of my sin. I began to study the Bible.
As I studied the Bible I saw that I needed to be baptised. I got baptised. As I continued to study the Bible I saw that some things that my denomination taught appeared to be not Biblically correct.
When I prayed to receive the Spirit Jesus filled me with his Spirit and I began to speak in tongues. This is one of the things my old denomination says no longer happens. I was no longer really welcome in my old denomination. I began to go to Assembly of God and Charismatic churches.
Later as I continued to study the Bible I saw that I had no been baptised correctly. The original Christians baptised "in the name of Jesus." So I got rebaptised because I desired to do everything the way that God had specified. My father viewed my rebaptism as a final break from my old denomination and disowned me for a time. We are now reconciled.
I believe because I have followed the light God has given me at different points in my life. I am filled with the Spirit of God and speak in tongues. I am Pentecostal. The Word of God and the Spirit of God bear witness to my human spirit.
You may view those as subjective experiences. That is fine. I have all the proof I need. I believe what I believe about what the Bible says becasue I have studied the Bible for many years and try to read what is written rather than injecting what I want it say or what somebody else told me it says. We must follow the light wherever it leads us.
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angelito
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posted July 20, 2009 10:30 AM |
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We must follow the light wherever it leads us.
No Elodin. YOU must follow...not WE. Keep in mind...thanks 
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Elodin
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posted July 20, 2009 10:38 AM |
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Quote:
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We must follow the light wherever it leads us.
No Elodin. YOU must follow...not WE. Keep in mind...thanks
Ok, I'll follow where the light leads me and you follow darkness if that is your desire.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
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Mytical
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posted July 20, 2009 10:43 AM |
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Pride cometh before the fall. The great serpent was prideful also, believing he knew the one true way. His light blinded him, making him stumble off the path.
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Elodin
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posted July 20, 2009 10:58 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 11:04, 20 Jul 2009.
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Pride cometh before the fall. The great serpent was prideful also, believing he knew the one true way. His light blinded him, making him stumble off the path.
Saying there is one way is not being prideful. The Devil rebelled against God, seeking to start his own kingdom and even to rule over God. The devil knew the One True God and rebelled against him out of pride.
If you say that there is more than one way you are saying you are right and I am wrong. Does that make you prideful?
Oh, and you are saying I am prideful and blind? Since you said "also?" You are not justified in calling me blind and prideful.
I have answered your question as to why I believe what I believe and for that I was insulted. So much for everyone keeping an open mind huh? Since you *know* my bliefs are wrong.
I believe Jesus. He said he is the only way. He is God existing as a man.
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Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Edit: Oh yeah, I seem to remember you urging everyone to comment on ideas rather than on people.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 20, 2009 11:09 AM |
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I'm going to try and make the point (I doubt that all will agree), that all religious based arguing is SPAM, and it is spam BECAUSE of freedom of religious belief.
Freedom of religious belief allows you to have any religious belief you want and it allows you to have an opinion on it, but in fact it doesn't allow to argue on the grounds of it (or, more correctly, it makes it useless).
This is so, because freedom of belief means automatically that TGECHNICALLY and to ENABLE this ALL religious beliefs are EQUAL (and that is completely unconnected with the fact that many people may view their personal belief as true and the only true one).
Because of this, you CANNOT argue in a thread about homosexuality that it is wrong because whoever god demands it. As a point this is simply countered by the fact that someone with a different religion has the same right of opinion and can say, well my god allows it, no problem, therefore it must be right. FREEDOM OF RELIGIOUS BELIEF dictates that you accept any different opinion based on a different belief, whether you like or not, whether you think it is true of false, which means ultimately, that it makes no sense to back ANY point with a religiously motivated point.
Try it with another example. Man and Women are equal in our constitution. Now you discuss something, and someone backs an opinion with "For a man this is completely natural". Obviously, a woman saying, "for a woman it is unnatural" will counter the point, and since they have been declared equal there is no discussion on that grounds. If, however, the constitution would say that men have more rights and are better humans or anything that would make them inequal in some way, it was clear that "all men see it that way" had more weight than "all women see it differently".
So. My opinion is, that BECAUSE of religious freedom an opinion based on religious grounds is not debatable. It is no relevant point either, for nothing. Saying that something is wrong because god declares it sin is IRRELEVANT, because it is countered - under freedom of religious belief - with my gods do not declare it wrong, therefore it's not.
There is nothing to discuss about that.
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Mytical
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posted July 20, 2009 11:12 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 11:33, 20 Jul 2009.
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I have answered your question as to why I believe what I believe and for that I was insulted. So much for everyone keeping an open mind huh? Since you *know* my bliefs are wrong.
Mind pointing this out where I said word one about why you believe what you believe? Angelito's comment was more "You must follow your own light, not WE." and he could be following HIS own light. Isn't it a bit prideful to say "You follow darkness, and ONLY I follow the light?" So how was my statement false?
Edit: And yes..we should deffinately stick to the topic. However to paraphrase somebody "Should I not be able to defend myself?" 
Also I never once said I KNOW you are wrong, EVER. I discuss where I THINK you are wrong, but never ever have I said. "Elodin, your beliefs are wrong and that is that."
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Elodin
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posted July 20, 2009 11:30 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I have answered your question as to why I believe what I believe and for that I was insulted. So much for everyone keeping an open mind huh? Since you *know* my bliefs are wrong.
Mind pointing this out where I said word one about why you believe what you believe? Angelito's comment was more "You must follow your own light, not WE." and he could be following HIS own light. Isn't it a bit prideful to say "You follow darkness, and ONLY I follow the light?" So how was my statement false?
I was refering to your question about why we believe what we believe.
My response to Angelito was meant to be a humorous since he said "No Elodin. YOU must follow [light]...not WE. Keep in mind...thanks." If one does not follow the light then one follows darkness.
Whereas you said I am prideful and blind. Again, you said on this very page: " Before you post ANYTHING, remove anything that is personal and not addressing the ISSUES." But you didn't mind insulting me.
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I'm going to try and make the point (I doubt that all will agree), that all religious based arguing is SPAM, and it is spam BECAUSE of freedom of religious belief.
Expressing a religious belief is not spam. And people have lots of different ideas of what a religion is.
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This is so, because freedom of belief means automatically that TGECHNICALLY and to ENABLE this ALL religious beliefs are EQUAL (and that is completely unconnected with the fact that many people may view their personal belief as true and the only true one).
Fredom of religion has nothing to do with all relious beliefs being equally true. It has to do with your right to believe and practice your own religious beliefs and not to have a religion imposed on you by the state.
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Because of this, you CANNOT argue in a thread about homosexuality that it is wrong because whoever god demands it. As a point this is simply countered by the fact that someone with a different religion has the same right of opinion and can say, well my god allows it, no problem, therefore it must be right.
I disagree that religious pepole should basicly be told to shut up and go hide in the closet. Everyone has a right to speak their opinion.
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FREEDOM OF RELIGIOUS BELIEF dictates that you accept any different opinion based on a different belief, whether you like or not, whether you think it is true of false, which means ultimately, that it makes no sense to back ANY point with a religiously motivated point
No, it dictates that I must accept your right to have an opinion that differs from mine. It does not dictate that I have to accept your opinion as equally true.
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So. My opinion is, that BECAUSE of religious freedom an opinion based on religious grounds is not debatable.
Sure it is. Religious freedom does not maan people can't debate religion. It means the opposite in fact.
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It is no relevant point either, for nothing.
Opinions based on religion are every bit as relevant as "secular" opinions.
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Saying that something is wrong because god declares it sin is IRRELEVANT, because it is countered - under freedom of religious belief - with my gods do not declare it wrong, therefore it's not.
No, religious speech is not irrelevant.
You've already said that no beliefs are rational so I know where you are coming from.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 20, 2009 11:47 AM |
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You are spamming this board, Elodin. You are spamming it because the grounds on which you are arguing are DEFINED as being equal for everyone.
Whether YOUR god, YOUR bible and YOUR religion says something one way or another is IRRELEVANT to the point of spamming (whether you believe it is true or not), because freedom of religion grants everyone THE SAME or EQUAL right to believe DIFFERENT.
Therefore, if you for example believe that homosexuality is wrong BECAUSE GOD SAID IT'S SIN, than it's SPAMMING, because when someone else says MY GOD does NOT say it, therefore it's NOT wrong, both opinions are completely equally valid or unvalid (whether you believe different or not).
Therefore, since a decision will have to be found how we handle things in society we have to find OTHER reasons to allow or forbid it. Reasons that are valid NO MATTER of religion.
Note, that would be different, when we DID NOT HAVE freedom of religion. Then we would simply do it the way the VALID religion would dictate it - and so it has been.
Therefore, religious opinion is good and well, but it's completely irrelevant as a grounds on which to argue.
So EVERYONE with a religiously motivated opinion about an issue is of course entitled to speak their opinion, but since it is ultimately based on the opinion the highest authority has about the issue, a debate makes no sense and continuing to hammer the same point over and over again is spamming.
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Mytical
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posted July 20, 2009 11:57 AM |
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My understanding of the bible, and God
First we have to take a step back..in time that is. When mankind was young we had some ... very harsh laws. Even for ourselves. Take the old west. You could be 'strung up' for something as simple as tresspassing. Because it was a harsh environment, harshness was needed to keep people from just killing each other until there was nobody left. To me, this is why there was harsh laws from the Christian God. Even though I personally do not believe that he is the ONLY and TRUE God, remember this is what I got from reading the Bible. ((And my understanding should be as 'true' as any other persons))
God is a being of love, and suffers because if he rid the world of all evil, then mankind would never 'grow' and learn to appreciate the life after. So he set down these laws, and the punishments, because they were needed. As time went on and mankind made things abit less..harsh on themselves, he was able to loosen up a bit. So instead of an 'eye for an eye' it became 'turn the other cheek'.
Maybe having a kid had a mellowing effect, maybe not. Maybe he just matured, maybe not. Why the change I don't know, but there was a change in attitude.
Now keep in mind that although God is the most powerful, there was a force working against him. One almost as powerful. This entity was also very tricky and appealing. Again while God could have destroyed this force, if he did then mankind might never reach the full potential that he has.
God doesn't care WHO you love, the two towns destroyed were not because of Homosexuality but because they had become dins of ALL inequity. Basically making Vegas look like the Vatican. Why would a being OF love care WHO you love? Makes no sense.
Now of course I don't know all the answers, never claimed to. In the bible I read it is pretty clear that no man will ever know all of the answers. To me that means that what is between god and a person is between god and a person. As long as it harms none, as long as they are ok with God, nobody else has any say in it. Let God Judge them, it is NOT our place.
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Mytical
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posted July 20, 2009 12:14 PM |
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Edited by Mytical at 12:16, 20 Jul 2009.
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ANY post that is not on the main topic is SPAM. Regardless if it is Religious or not. SOME leeway has to be given because it might 'loosely' be related to the main topic, or a Moderator might have to come in and explain that it is SPAM, but if you want to be technical about it a post compairing the engine of a motorcylce to a car in a thread about cars could be considered 'spam'.
Politics or Religion should remain in threads about Politics or Religion. That goes for BOTH sides, and responding to a post about Religion or Politics (either side for or against) in another thread is just as guilty. We went over that..I see it I penalize it in any thread other then one specifically designed for it. No questions, no warnings, feel free to plead your case to Val however if you wish.
Enough is enough, this is a topic about religion so of course it is immune. Not so about personal attacks. We ALL can be guilty, but it ends here. From here on, if you can not respond to the ISSUES don't post. Any personal references will be penalized until people can discuss without getting personal.
Edit : The obvious exception is things like "You said" followed by a quote or things in the same Vein.
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DagothGares
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posted July 20, 2009 12:15 PM |
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Quote:
Why do you believe what you believe?
I want to believe in a world made of peace and love.
(obligatory trigun reference)
Anyway, this wide-eyed idealism, coupled with my own young naivity, along with the fact I was raised in a catholic school led me to religion, because, after all, I found the things that Jesus did and the idea of a loving god very nice things. Now, I know christianity doesn't have a monopoly on brotherly love and peace, but pacifism isn't a wide movement and I just believe in God or, God forbid, actually even pray once in a while, so I'm a theist as well.
I don't care how others interpret the term christianity, I want to give it my meaning and while that's a horrible thing to say as a linguist I just don't think the teachings of christ are what many people seem to think it is. Of course, freedom of religion and all that, so no way I'd antagonise them... Much...
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Even though I personally do not believe that he is the ONLY and TRUE God
Maybe all monotheists who believe in a god of love, believe in the same god? (of course, the fine detailing may differ...)
And you could even go as far as to ask whether all polytheist gods can be put under the banner of good or malevolence...
Though, of course, I don't really believe that evil is a presence. it's more an absence of good, but meh, just my two cents.
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Mytical
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posted July 20, 2009 12:18 PM |
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I just have to say this (sorry for getting personal) but  DG. I like that post!
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DagothGares
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posted July 20, 2009 12:28 PM |
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Thanks, mytical, it's been a while since someone called me anything other than a naive ignorant one
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Mytical
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posted July 20, 2009 12:33 PM |
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Oh and I guess I should state that Positive comments will also be immune (not negative disguised as positive). If you truely think somebody made an excellent post, feel free to state so 
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del_diablo
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posted July 20, 2009 12:42 PM |
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Quote:
My response to Angelito was meant to be a humorous since he said "No Elodin. YOU must follow [light]...not WE. Keep in mind...thanks." If one does not follow the light then one follows darkness.
Only if you can se in black and white. And besides, light can be more than that, if can be a brighter light or a greener light. Besides, who said darkness was bad?
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JollyJoker
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posted July 20, 2009 12:52 PM |
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Mytical, you could at least try to UNDERSTAND the point. It's not spamming because it's off-topic, it's spamming because with the exception of informing about the pov of a certain religion, a reasoning based on a religious belief has no value due to the fact that there is religious freedom and all religious beliefs are equal.
As an example: If you say "I believe that homosexuality is wrong because god declared it sin", than it SOUNDS like someone would give a reason, but in fact it is none. Because it means actually:
"I believe in god the almighty as descrined in the holy bible and that everyone god says is good and true and right, and since he declared it sin that's all I have to know, so it's wrong for me."
However: You may say this as well: "I believe that homosexuality is completely ok, because gods x and y leave sex completely to ourselves, then in fact you say: " I believe in gods x and y as described by A and B and that everyone those gods say is good and true and right and since they say that sex is our personal thing, that's all I have to know, so it's ok for me."
There is nothing to debate here. You can actually acknowledge two points of view BASED on RELIGIOUS grounds, and due to religious freedom NEITHER are theż debatable, NOR you can decide on whether one is wrong and the other is right or vce versa.
That's why this is NO REASONING AT ALL.
It's just like saying: "I believe, homosexuality is wrong." "I believe homosexuality is ok." Religious belief as a reasoning DOES NOT HELP.
So it's not off-topic, on the contrary. But it's JUST an information like "My point of view is based on the commandments of god", and that is that. What is there to discuss?
I mean, you can make a thread "Can you discuss with god about his commandments (or not)?", and if that is answered, no, you can't, then every debate about it is useless.
However, that doesn't make it RIGHT. It just means that someone who's opinion is based on religious belief has nothing to add to it, except, "try to ask god, maybe he answers you", but that's basically it.
You see that it's basically it, if you read some threads:
"Why is it sin?"
"Because god says so?"
"Yeah, but why is it SIN?"
"Because god says so."
"Man, are you dumb? WHY says god it's sin?"
"Because he knows everything and what's good and right for us, so he will know why and we have to trust him."
"Aaaaahh."
See that? It makes no sense. If we want to discuss things like that, then usually we are interested in some reasoning. If (whichever) god is cited as a reason, we want to know the reasons why god has this opinion, and if the person cannot explain that, the reasoning has no value, because if we would buy it we wouldn't discuss things in the first place. So instead of "Aaaaahhhh", you could say:
"Yes, I KNOW that, but if I would buy that I wouldn't ask for further reasoning in the first place."
You might say: for those who don't prefer a specific god OTHER reasonings are of interest, because those who DO prefer a specific god DON'T NEED ANY.
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