Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
New Server | HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info forum | HOMM4: info forum | HOMM5: info forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Other Side Feedback
Thread: Other Side Feedback This Popular Thread is 139 pages long: 1 ... 18 19 20 21 22 ... 40 60 80 100 120 139 · «PREV / NEXT»
Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted April 13, 2008 12:06 AM

Quote:
Binabik implied that killing 100,000 japanese to save 1 american is worth it.

I didn't imply it, I outright said it. And I'll say it again. Killing 100,000 Japanese to save one American was worth it. Now please go back and read what else I said and put it in context.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted April 13, 2008 12:10 AM
Edited by TheDeath at 00:11, 13 Apr 2008.

You do realize that nazi would say the same thing about e.g jews...

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Geny
Geny


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's backside
HC SUPPORTER
posted April 13, 2008 12:14 AM

No, nazis would say that killing a million jews just for the heck of it is worth it. Now stop waving the nazi refferance without justification, I hate when people do that.
____________
geny is a meanie - fred79

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted April 13, 2008 12:16 AM

ok, bad example sorry

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted April 13, 2008 12:36 AM

Quote:
You do realize that nazi would say the same thing about e.g jews

No. What I am saying is the exact opposite. I'm saying that if a bomb were dropped on Berlin killing 100,000 Germans and it saved the life of one Jew, then it is worth it.

There were an estimated 70 million people killed in that damn war. 70 million. What I am saying is that Japan and Germany were the aggressors in the most horrific war known to mankind. The Jews, the Americans, the French, the Russians, the English, the Philipinos, the Indonesians, the Chinese.....they already paid the price. Do you understand that? They paid an extremely high price, far higher than the price Germany and Japan paid. The Germans and Japanese got off easy.

Why should the victims of aggression pay with one more life? Someone please answer that question for me.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted April 13, 2008 12:44 AM

Because, Binabik, two wrongs don't make a right.
____________
Eccentric Opinion

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted April 13, 2008 12:44 AM

Quote:
No. What I am saying is the exact opposite. I'm saying that if a bomb were dropped on Berlin killing 100,000 Germans and it saved the life of one Jew, then it is worth it.
Actually my analogy was to replace americans with nazis, but forget it then.

Quote:
Do you understand that? They paid an extremely high price, far higher than the price Germany and Japan paid. The Germans and Japanese got off easy.
So? That doesn't mean that a japanese or a german is less worth than an american in any way.

Quote:
Why should the victims of aggression pay with one more life? Someone please answer that question for me.
You know, you said something like killing 100,000 japanese to save 1 american was worth it. What you implied (or at least what I understood) in the last post is that, saving that 1 american instead of not saving him/her would be better -- but nowhere did you say that you have to kill 100,000 japanese to do that, or even more that it was worth it (especially since we're talking about civilians here).

It's entirely different to say "Choose: Save Joe Smith or not? (just a random american name)" and "Choose: Save Joe Smith by killing 100,000 japanese, or not?" and then answering "sure it's worth".

at least my 2 cents

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted April 13, 2008 12:46 AM

Axis wanted too much power.
That is why the allies had to ally with each other.
Japan tried to take over China before the war even started.
German leaders wanted to take over the world.
Who knows how many other World Wars we could be at if there were no allies.
It was Nessary & it had to be done.
The mind set was too strong in Japan. The children would of done the same thing as thier families had done.
Germany was a little different in the mind set.
____________
Dreaming of a Better World

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
dimis
dimis


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
posted April 13, 2008 01:06 AM
Edited by dimis at 01:57, 13 Apr 2008.

Quote:
Quote:
It's their choice.

Then it's also their choice to ask for, or even pay for the aid of the US?
Yes. And it's also US's choice of accepting or not, unless of course United Nations are established for fun.
Will we move this conversation somewhere else? It's pointless here. This is the feedback thread.
edit: And btw, your answer I guess implies that there was no "humanitarian" reason for those wars.
____________
The empty set

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
dimis
dimis


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
posted April 13, 2008 01:26 AM
Edited by dimis at 01:50, 13 Apr 2008.

Quote:
I agree with Dimis up to a certain point.  Sometimes people have lost the choice, and are just too 'beaten up' to stand up for themselves.  Take some military regime.  They usually overthrow the old government, and for a bit everything can be better.  But if that regime suddenly gets power mad, what chance does the commoners have?
So do you conclude that the circumstances are *not* "mature" enough for a change to occur?
I mean, take for example an extreme scenario. Communism failed. And it failed only when the circumstances were mature enough so that it is a logical consequence to fail. There was no war that forced this collapse. Yes, I know about "cold" war, but I hope you get what I mean.

Quote:
If they stage a rebellion, they face a foe that is better armed, better trained, and more experienced.  It would be a blood bath.  Sometimes people loose the choice, and then aid is needed from other sources.
So, instead of a possible blood bath initiated by the people for the people, we should support a certain blood bath that involves other countries as well. I don't get it.

Quote:
I will be one of the first to admit america sticks it's nose where it doesn't belong way too often.  If we hadn't however, things might have been much worse.
Or again, ... better.

Quote:
Imagine an Axis controlled Eastern Hemisphere (and maybe eventually the world).
There was such an axis. The Warsaw Pact. But it failed and there was no direct war between US and CCCP.

Quote:
Gah keep going way OT, we need to discuss this in another thread entirely.
Agreed. Will somebody open a thread?  

Quote:
As for the foreiner comment, I have to let you all in on a little secret.  Come on, come a little closer...

Not all of us think of everybody else as foreiners.  Shocking huh? America has people from ALL nations.  Yeah, suprising isn't it?
Yes. And that's exactly the difficulty that many problematic parts in the US system remain problematic. People originated from different parts of the world have different objectives in life. This in turn does *not* unite them to fight for something better. Take for example the pension system in US. It  s u c k s. And nobody does nothing. Well, the government, will not change a situation that favors the system now, will it?

Quote:
Now somebody once asked a question.  If a building was burning would you save 5 strangers or 1 family member.  It is all perspective.
My family member.

Quote:
Though Bina may have exaggerated the numbers, stop and think a second.  If you were in the same situation where x number of friends and family could be saved, and x*y strangers..which would you choose?
(X is a rather large number, and y say 2 or 3).
I answered above. First my family member and then as many as possible as I can. This still does not justify support to a nuclear attack which expresses the horror of war at its peak. I think that this tragic event is the cornerstone for the foundation of the United Nations. So, to my opinion Binabik didn't express himself with the appropriate phrase.

edit: And as TitaniumAlloy said the attack by the Japanese was in a sense justified under the terms of war. But the war was wrong in the first place.
____________
The empty set

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
TitaniumAlloy
TitaniumAlloy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
posted April 13, 2008 02:50 AM
Edited by TitaniumAlloy at 02:52, 13 Apr 2008.

I am not sympathising with the Japanese army of WW2. They committed some of the greatest atrocities in history, and there's no getting around that.

The point is that people make the default assumption that this guilt is somehow shared by every single person on the island of Japan, which I find absurd..


There is no difference, morally, between the innocent Japanese in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and an innocent American. In fact, American soldiers are less innocent than the civilians of Hiroshima and Nagasaki according to international war rules, so you could argue the other way.

Personally I would never justify killing 100,000 people to save one in such circumstances.


Quote:
There were an estimated 70 million people killed in that damn war. 70 million. What I am saying is that Japan and Germany were the aggressors in the most horrific war known to mankind. The Jews, the Americans, the French, the Russians, the English, the Philipinos, the Indonesians, the Chinese.....they already paid the price. Do you understand that? They paid an extremely high price, far higher than the price Germany and Japan paid. The Germans and Japanese got off easy.

This isn't "spank the naughty child", Binabik. These are innocent men women and children we're talking about.
An "eye for an eye" certainly does not work on such a scale... forget blind, we'd all be dead long ago.
____________
John says to live above hell.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted April 13, 2008 03:31 AM

I understand killing 1 to save 100,000, but not the reverse.
____________
Eccentric Opinion

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Azagal
Azagal


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
posted April 13, 2008 05:22 AM

Quote:
I still think the mods need to justify the penalty. Angelito did not do this when the penalty was given nor when he started the subject in this thread. Later he called Binabik's statement "racistic", which it is not.

Again racistic is the wrong word. He is being discreminat like hell.

Binabik what you don't seem to understand is this:
Quote:
So? That doesn't mean that a japanese or a german is less worth than an american in any way.

Quote:
The point is that people make the default assumption that this guilt is somehow shared by every single person on the island of Japan, which I find absurd..

It's not just absurd it's ignorant and narrowminded to say the least. And:
Quote:
There is no difference, morally, between the innocent Japanese in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and an innocent American.

So please why can't you just accept that what you said is discriminate and therefore wrong and penalty demanding!!

Quote:
Now please go back and read what else I said and put it in context.
There is no context!! My god what is it you don't understand about the fact that life of person x is NOT worth less than the lives of people y! No matter the context! And damit you should get two new penalties for saying it again and for saying the same thing about germans and jews.


Oh and just because people value life it does not mean they are anti-american. This whole penalty discussion is not about what americans did but about your statement and all the arguments for your penalty do not imply anything about americans so could we stop the stupid patriotic reasoning?
____________
"The superior man is modest in
his speech but exceeds in his
actions." Confucius

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted April 13, 2008 07:40 AM

Oh brother who gives a rats crack.
Get over the -QP & move on like I have before.
Why dont yall bring this topic back to the War, religious threads so yall can talk about the same old stuff over & over & over again lol.
____________
Dreaming of a Better World

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
violent_flower
violent_flower


Promising
Supreme Hero
Almost there.
posted April 14, 2008 05:21 PM

Quote:
I answered above. First my family member and then as many as possible as I can. This still does not justify support to a nuclear attack which expresses the horror of war at its peak. I think that this tragic event is the cornerstone for the foundation of the United Nations. So, to my opinion Binabik didn't express himself with the appropriate phrase.


He has stated again and again what he meant and what his position was. Based on this and the definition of Racism: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.

 His QP was not justified. Why is there no one of authority coming in and looking at this with more intelligence and the ability to understand what the hell he was saying?

 It is put in terms a second grader can understand but yet we are handing out a QP like Valtrex to a snow on nickel night for Christ sake.  

Quote:
There is no context!! My god what is it you don't understand about the fact that life of person x is NOT worth less than the lives of people y! No matter the context!


 Really? Under every circumstance? Are you for real or is this a ploy to get someone to call BS on you. I will not get into the circumstances in which this is not true because we are debating about an unwarranted QP. But excuse me while check around me for dumb assery.

____________
Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted April 14, 2008 06:19 PM
Edited by maretti at 20:51, 14 Apr 2008.

Where is Pandora to straighten things out when needed?

Imho Binabiks post shouldnt come close to a penalty. There is nothing racial in it or anything else that justifies a penalty. Its important in every forum (and in every country for that matter) that people can speak freely and say whats on their mind even though its controversial and even repellent.

Posts like his should be met by arguments and not penalties. You dont convinse anyone that he is wrong by handing out a penalty.

To be honest im so surprised about Binabiks statement that im thinking that there might be some misunderstanding hidden somewhere. Does he (you) really mean that IF the war could have been ended with extremely limited american losses (1-10 deads) that it was still the right decision to drop the nuclear bombs? No doubt that the only reson the americans chose this solution was because it would have cost thousands of american lives to win the war with the conventional army.

Among those 100000 japanese there must have been thousands of children. Were those children also responsible for their governments actions? Do 30000 japanese children deserve to die to save 1 american live? I could understand your point if you said that you could save a couple of thousand americans by killing 100000 japanese, but 1!. I have a hard time believing that you really mean that. If thats infact the case thats a pretty cynical opinion to say the least.

____________
Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
violent_flower
violent_flower


Promising
Supreme Hero
Almost there.
posted April 14, 2008 06:33 PM

Quote:
I have a hard time believing that you really mean that. If thats infact the case thats a pretty cynical opinion to say the least.


However still just an opinion.


____________
Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted April 14, 2008 06:47 PM

@ V_F
You really seem to have problems in understanding, sorry to say.

I will explain again:

It is not important what Binabik wanted to express, or what he had in mind, it is important what he wrote. (See my example "Your post was sh*t" or "What u said is wrong"; both meant the same, first is penalty worthy, second is not).

I am aware of what he wanted to express, and I already stated my opinion is similar to his', but he should have written the idea in a different way. As pointed out, maybe in a way The_Gootch wrote it ("The bomb killed many, but saved much more).

And yes, "racistic" is the wrong term for this, but this again is an example where non native speakers are doing a bit hard to find the right words, the right definition. Someone wrote "discriminating", which comes closer to what I had in mind when giving that penalty.

What is also surprising for me is the fact, Binabik doesn't even admit his words "could" be interpreted in a different way than he wanted them to be interpreted, although many members already stated their opinion and their way of interpretation.

Only conclusion I have is, he doesn't even care.
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
violent_flower
violent_flower


Promising
Supreme Hero
Almost there.
posted April 14, 2008 06:51 PM

Ok point taken...
____________
Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
pandora
pandora


Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
posted April 14, 2008 09:12 PM

Where am I to straighten things out? lol! Maretti, I wouldn't even know where to begin...

In all honesty, if one were to ask me what the fix for this situation would be my response would be to put an end to any and all political/religious debate on the forums.

From what I've seen the majority of the members who participate are not of a maturity level that lends itself to intelligent debate/conversation. Some people are just completely unable to listen to what others are saying, and others just get such a charge out of inciting argument and bad feeling - that all they do is try to create flame wars.

People are justifying their own bad behaviour by pointing to other people's bad behaviour - no one seems willing to be accountable in situations when they are just plain wrong.

The way I see our options as moderators is to either allow it to continue - but become heavy handing 24/7 babysitters monitoring each and every word written with penalties at the ready. Or we just close all the threads that are causing the trouble.

The problem being that I don't find either of these options to be reasonable - so what do we do? One thing I've considered is an unofficial eject button for anyone who repeatedly causes problems in threads. What that would mean is that if we see that someone is doing nothing but drive topics off topic, and making ridiculous inflammatory statements, they be given one warning before being banned from the thread. If the member chooses to post after they are banned then they would be instantly penalized.

I'm saying this because I agree with what I've seen posted here a few times, this forum is filled with garbage. I'm tired of being a babysitter and garbage man - I won't pretend that part of the reason I'm so rarely here is not simply because I'm sick of reading it, because that is part of the reason.

But anyways, that's not what I've been asked to respond to - so here goes.

Binibik's post said

Quote:
ALL of the Americans were innocent. Japan attacked the US, so every single American life lost was Japans fault. If dropping the bomb killed 100,000 Japanese and saved one American life, then it was worth it.


In the context that it was written, I do not believe race to be any part of what he was saying. I can't try to get inside his head and tell anyone what he meant - so I won't bother trying. But I do not believe that his statement was meant to read that its an acceptable solution to this kind of conflict - but more so that if that was the result in this situation, then he would believe that it was worth it.

That said I can see why people reading it would find that to be very offensive - because when you read it written that way... well I'll admit that my jaw hit the floor. However as I do know Binabik to be a man with respect for life - I do not see it that he meant it as it sounded. But honestly, I was as surprised as anyone.

The thing is that while people may have found it offensive, it was his opinion. I don't believe for a second he meant it in any way to be offensive. In the past we have had many other opinions stated that i have found offensive, but those opinions were not penalized. The greatest example of this would be where one member spoke of people with disability as not being "people". Those posts did not receive a penalty...

I would really prefer to see a situation where if a statement is made like that one, rather than have members yelling at us for a penalty, they take the time to ask the poster exactly how the meant it - perhaps tell them that their post was very offensive to them and why, and see what comes of it. So often this kind of ugliness that's going on here can be avoided.

All that's happened here is that rather than have any kind of calm resolution, we now have a whole lot of people (many of whom aren't even involved in the initial discussion!) feeling defensive and angry and... urghhhh... more garbage
____________
"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread » This Popular Thread is 139 pages long: 1 ... 18 19 20 21 22 ... 40 60 80 100 120 139 · «PREV / NEXT»
Post New Poll Post New Topic Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.0829 seconds