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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted June 16, 2007 06:56 PM |
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Good morning everyone!
Consis, once in a while when reading one of your posts I find myself beginning to shake uncontrollably. I suspect that on occasion you do the same when reading one of mine.
Then I start to giggle at myself. I hope that you occasionally giggle as well.
I continue to respect your right to voice your very strong opinions and to disagree with me. Once again, I hope you do the same.
As for the bulk of your post, I will let it speak for itself. For one thing, I simply do not have the time at this moment to set forth a detailed recitation of historical facts and incidents to explain some of my strongly worded indictments, as I am trying to prepare for a well-earned vacation. We can save that conversation for a later date and perhaps another thread. Let me just say that I think you missed my point. My point was that you apparently made assumptions about me based on my post. I set forth that post so that people could view your response in its context.
Now, returning to the topic at hand:
(Be right back with some recent news articles)
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1316
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/06/14/wsjnbc-poll-obama-leads_n_52171.html
http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/15905
http://www.thecherrycreeknews.com/content/view/1303/2/
And on the point of the "Ivy-Leage" issue:
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Every time I hear someone rattle off Obama's greatest achievments thus far is that he somehow or other became leader of his little club while he was there. Oh how lovely to get a member's-only jacket for winning the prize for most popular among classmates. Now on to the White House and leading the nation in a global economy!
Now this one I'm chalking up to a lack of information. You're referring to the fact that Obama was the Editor-in-Chief of the Harvard Law Review, I assume. Consis, this isn't some "member's only" popularity contest. It is THE most widely-respected scholarly law publication in the United States. Only the very brightest can even think of touching the kind of intellect it takes to become the editor-in-chief of the Harvard Law Review.
The fact that Obama was its first African-American editor-in-chief, and the fact that he is also a rather uniquely brilliant writer whose many-faceted talents did not go unrecognized by his professors and other promimant individuals at Harvard, led them to suggest he write a book about his life. So he did. Have you read it yet? It's called "Dreams from my Father." He was thirty-four years old, it was eleven years ago.
If you want to know about the individual you claim to know is not ready, if you want to know about what he has done as you claim he hasn't done anything, then you should read his writings. The next one, called "The Audacity of Hope," sets forth his political analyses.
If you refuse then you will lose credibility in your judgments of a man about and by whom there is a wealth of information available, but which you neglect to investigate.
Binabik and others, thanks for trying to keep us on point, and I'm sorry Consis and I got momentarily sidetracked here. We just do that with each other sometimes.
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted June 16, 2007 07:31 PM |
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Running on at the mouth here --
Okay. Here's the scoop on Powell's meetings with Obama. Consis, it's becoming quite apparent that this is not a racial issue of press cherry-picking. It was apparently Powell himself that disclosed he's been meeting with Obama during his recent interview on Meet the Press. The nature of the disclosure suggests that he's considering endorsing Obama. This is what we call in politics a "Trial Balloon" (which I'm sure you probably knew) and might just very well be the first testing of the waters for an Obama-Powell ticket.
http://blogs.cfr.org/campaign2008/2007/06/11/powell-and-obama/
Are you still sure you don't care what they're talking about? An Obama-Powell ticket would very likely be practically unstoppable. I think they both know that.
Here's a guy that took the words right out of my mouth.
http://www.onublog.com/post-1425
This is getting increasingly amazing. It makes my skin tingle just thinking about it.
Now, I REALLY gotta go get some stuff done. Try to check back in later.
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted June 16, 2007 08:20 PM |
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Plus, you know how when JFK was prez, we could be proud of the booty calls that the leader of the free world was getting since he was tapping the likes of Marilyn Monroe and such?
Oh the possibilities ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKsoXHYICqU
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Drive by posting.
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted June 16, 2007 08:29 PM |
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LOL
Thanks Bort. That was decidedly unhelpful.
How embarassing.
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted June 17, 2007 12:47 AM |
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While I'm at it...
Consis, your comments about the Ivy League factor, and about separating oneself from poverty, leave me hanging as to why you don't hold the same criticisms about Clinton.
First of all, I applied and was accepted to Harvard Law school in 1987. The only reason I didn't go was because the University of Denver offered me a better scholarship (trying to avoid the Colorado brain-drain, as it were, back then). If I had decided to go and pay through the nose the rest of my life, like Obama is probably doing, would that make me an "Ivy-Leaguer" as well? When you have the opportunity to go to the best law school in the United States, somehow that's a decision that will make enemies of people like Consis?????????(!?!?!?!?!?!?!?"!)
Second, Obama is the ONLY candidate who refuses both lobbyists and PAC money (except very early on when he received around 3 grand from a PAC -- has quit accepting PAC money since he realized they were doing it) to fund his presidential campaign.
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/summary.asp?id=N00009638&cycle=2008
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/summary.asp?id=N00009638&cycle=2008
By contrast, Hillary is backed by many very wealthy, well-veiled "individuals " who are actually lobbyists in disguise:
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/veiled-lobbyists-give-700000-2007-04-18.html
http://politicalinsider.com/2007/04/clinton_leads_in_k_street_cont.html
And let's not forget the PACs:
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/summary.asp?id=N00000019&cycle=2008
Now, finally, on his "income." As a lowly, modest couple of lawyers working for the state (one of the lowest-paid legal positions one can take under most circumstances) my husband and I make a comparatively modest rate of about one third what most private lawyers make. In the case of Colorado, together we make about one sixth of what most private attorneys make. JUST TO BE CLEAR based on your last post, Consis: no, I'm not complaining. I'm very happy. I'm just providing a context here.
Obama's disclosures, given that he and his wife apparently make a more "reasonable" rate from their private-sector practices in the past, sounds about right.
Oh, and on the wonderful world of the American capitalist system:
Don't forget: if any of you wants to make that kind of money, all you have to do is commit to making excellent grades in grammar school, sweating your ass off in college, and then getting accepted into an "ivy-league" college," wherein if you survive your brains bleeding out of the orbs of your eyes for three years with no sleep and you actually survive graduation without falling prey to irreversible depresssion, alcoholsim, suicide, divorce and/or all four (common "ailments" among law students") then you too can get a job where you work twelve to fourteen hours a day, seven days a week, and make that same kind of money (e.g. about half a million a year -- put two private practice salaries together and you get a "millionaire" couple, albeit one without any life whatsoever, which is why my husband and I are in the civil service...)
So to you, I could say something like this:
You slovenly wife-dependent bastard who relies on his wife to support you while you stay at home with the kids: how DARE you accuse me of sopping off the system and your own familty while accusing me of being -- what was it --
Quote:
without question a complete lack of regard for the hardworking peoples in this country who break their backs daily so that people like you can sit around and cry foulplay of the worst ignorance!
-- but of course I would never say that to you, because I for one respect what you are doing. DO YOU RESPECT WHAT I'M DOING ?!?!?!?!?)
Don't get me wrong here. I'm trying to drive home a point about your all-too-willingness to just waive your otherwise highly-honed intellectual wand and pass judgment on others without thinking about the particulars of any given situation. I think you're great and wish on behalf of American womanhood there were more like you. I'm just shooting your judgmental crap back in your face. But you should always think twice before judging me, or anyone else.
You should also think twice before trying to take me on on this stuff. ;o)
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted June 17, 2007 02:55 AM |
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Peacemaker,
Let's get real for moment shall we? Let us put aside the petty arguments. Let's be honest about Obama. I honestly believe this guy is awesome. He truly is. The man can garner support in more ways than one and that's only the tip of the iceberg. He is well respected among his fellow americans and he can inspire others to reach for new heights in achieving some things that have never been done before. The man is without question a "uniter". Here is a man who can bring people together with pure strength of character and charisma. He knows what he wants and how to get it. His ideas are well-founded. I believe in his ideas. But that isn't the issue with him is it? The man appears to be of african descent. Anyone who thinks a black man (or a woman) can become president in 2008 simply hasn't been doing their homework. We've come a long way as a country but we also have a long way to go. Don't fool yourself into believing that the racists & ignorants (all the same to me) have all gone away. Anyone who thinks the time is right is just too imaginative and hasn't been listening to what people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have been saying. Let me tell you right now as these two afforementioned men would also tell you: We have a lot of work to do. We have work to do today, not yesterday or tomorrow but today; real tangible quantifiable work that can be measured and studied and looked upon as very important and necessary steps in moving this country forward toward a more racially tolerant nation. I just don't understand why some people refuse to listen and go off on some "the-future-is-now" trip talking about how racism is gone and how it's not something we have to worry about. listen to me! Racism is spinning out of control.
In my own neighborhood I am experiencing it right this very instant. Have you been watching the news? Heard anything about a certain Portland plant filled with illegal workers with false social security numbers? My neighbors and I have been talking a lot about this. Also: many of the houses in our area that have sudden traffic increases of non-english speaking people coming and going in vans that only appear for harvesting season. In fact someone even called the police to have something done about it and you know what the police said? We were told that there is no law against it and that they'll be gone by the fall when picking season ends. One of my neighbors has already threatened to move away because one of the houses I mentioned is right next to theirs. Oh and have I mentioned how many times I've tried to be a good neighbor and invite many of our hispanic neighbors over for dinners and other types of social gatherings. Hell even at the bus stop with all our children out there waiting, while the parents stand by and wait for the bus to come along and pick up the children......guess what.....two groups of adults standing seperately: One hispanic and the other english speaking. If we want to say something to the parents we have to ask one of their children to relay it and translate. I can vouch that NON-INTEGRATION is alive and well! I feel like no matter what I do, or the other neighbors do, they simply won't associate with us. Just listen to me! "They" ??? I'm already grouping these people together on some racial level! It sickens me and frustrates me. One time I went over where 'they' were hanging out in front of their houses and I tried talking to 'them'. I tried to break the ice and bring a book of spanish to show that I was trying to teach myself and attempting to build relationships with 'them'. You know what I was told? I was told that a person only needs to learn so much english and after that it doesn't matter because more people on the continental americas speak spanish anyway. Some day spanish will be the main language for north, south, and middle american continents as I was told.
You want to know where I get my opinion of elitists from? I'll tell you. Not once have I ever seen an elitist come visit my neighborhood. That's what makes them elite you see? Because they aren't the norm. They're special, more so than the rest of us. They're smarter, richer, and don't have time to draw up comprehensive bills/programs for things like non-integration. They spend most of their time wooing other elite so-called "important" people. And why? Like you said: Because they went to the "best schools" and had the "best education". I guess that makes them the best. Do I sound jealous? Sure why not? Why shouldn't I want to be more like someone who is better than me right? WRONG! Forgive me if I don't feel like I can relate to them. It's a natural human pattern of behavior to want to seek a "higher education" so that they can rise above the rest of us lower educated degenerates. You say you were well educated and went to a fantastic program in Denver after having turned down Harvard? You just don't see yourself as I see you Peacemaker. From every post I've read of yours you never act like you're better than anyone else. You may have an eltie education but you certainly don't act like it, and the same goes for Binabik. I understand he's had a good education too but the two of you are in the damned minority! You guys I respect because you don't think you're better than the rest of us.
Hillary was an elitist in my eyes too.....right up until she got to the white house after her husband became president. Just like she said, she could have stayed home and baked cookies but instead she chose to tackle one of this nations most flawed and important entities: healthcare. There she was, a white house wife, first lady, and elitist herself. She could have stayed home, baked cookies, played trophy wife, and founded some organization for needy children. She could have hosted galleries for white house art and gone to read children's books and all that stuff first ladies do in the shadow of their manly husbands. But she didn't did she! She went straight after the most difficult problem she could find and jumped in head first. She really wanted to make a difference! She wanted to change it if she could! And she tried so hard and failed miserably! And oh was her plan a mess! She had no idea what she was getting herself into! What courage it took to stand up to all the red tape and lobbying drug companies! One little insignificant woman! She started pulling strings and making power broker arrogant elitist pretty boy career politicians VERY ANGRY. WHO IS THIS ANNOYING WOMAN THAT THINKS SHE CAN TELL US WHAT TO DO JUST BECAUSE SHE'S THE PRESIDENT'S WIFE? And oh how they got angry! Who was this little woman who had the nerve to think she could change the way THEY do business! Ha! Her efforts were thwarted at every turn and in the end it was one big whopping failure. She took it right on the chin. No self respecting politician would let some woman come into their town and start running around without being reigned in and leashed by her husband ever again.....or so they thought. When it was all said and done, the smoke had cleared, and the coaches from her corner were throwing the towel in, they'd effectively squashed any hope of her affecting change of any kind in the healthcare system. It was like Rocky getting smacked around by that huge Russian steroid freak. (no offense to russians of course) They went on to claim a major victory and then moved to unite under Gengrich and forward to effectively stalemate her husband, the President. The Clintons, both husband and wife, were matched blow for blow and beaten in washington. A major victory was declared for the republicans....not that they won but that they shunted the president's power while he was still in office. Bill Clinton became a product of his own mistakes and Hillary became what looked like a sad story-of-a-wife who'd wasted her time on healthcare when she should have been tending to her husband's needs instead. I can imagine the gloating must've been on an epic scale.
But! Hillary is so strong and brilliant and caring and wonderful that the sores of her knockout and defeat only served to propel her forward! She'd taken some heavy blows by most of the career politicians, drug companies, and even some looking-the-other-way by her husband when they came to pounce. But did that stop her? No! Just as she has always done, she went back to basics and set her sights on yet another monumental responsibility to jump into head first: New York Senator! And I think she's done a damn fine job thus far. She is my favorite underdog. She is a symbol of change. If elected president she will go straight for THE TOUGHEST thing she can find and jump in head first. She may come out beaten and bruised and tattered but that will never diminish her strong fighting spirit. She's a good fighter. I think she can do so much for this country. AND I KNOW SHE'LL BRING OUR TROOPS HOME!
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 17, 2007 03:10 AM |
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Quote:
Heard anything about a certain Portland plant filled with illegal workers with false social security numbers?
Illegal immigration? I think that it's good for the US. It makes the economy stronger. Of course, it's not ideal. A guest worker program would be better, especially if the workers could work below minimum wage.
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Some day spanish will be the main language for north, south, and middle american continents as I was told.
So? How's Spanish any worse than English?
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I guess that makes them the best.
It does.
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She is my favorite underdog.
Lol, just lol. Hillary, an underdog? She's the Democratic frontrunner!
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Eccentric Opinion
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted June 17, 2007 04:07 AM |
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Hi guys --
After this I'm having a ciger.
Consis: Who was it that just asked in the last few days how people "can't get over the "black/white" thing?" Apparently you're the one, baby.
As for Mexican immigrants: whole different story. Whole different race. Whole different set of issues. How are you managing to tie Obama in with immigration issues? Did you bother to read any of those articles I posted? OBAMA IS LEADING IN THE GLOBAL POLLS OVER EVERY MAJOR REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE. Now, come back once again and tell me how Obama can't win because he's "black"?
By comparison, Hillary is so polarizing that she lags behind the Republican candidates in the global polls. There's clearly about half the country that hates her guts and wouldn't vote for her under any circumstances, ever. <EDIT> By the way, just to be clear, I am NOT one of them. THIS IS A STRATEGIC ISSUE THAT YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO COME TO GRIPS WITH, Consis.
You're convinced that the American public will not vote for him because he's "black." Once again: ARE YOU PAYING ATTENTION? YOU'RE the one who's saying that others won't vote for him because of his race despite that all the polls are right in your face. You will not vote for him because others will not, despite that they will. ONCE AGAIN, YOU'RE THE ONE, BABY.
If you want the democratic party to lose this election, then vote for Hillary in the primaries.
If you want the Dems to win, then vote for Obama.
It's that simple.
But never mind: it's clear that you're in love and can't see the pragmatic reality. It is what it is: no matter what you say or want to believe. It obviously does not matter what I say or anyone else brings to your attention. It has become increasingly apparent that you're desperately grasping at any straw you can to justify doing so. So I'm done now. I'm not going to piss into your wind anymore.
Go ahead and vote for Clinton like you were going to. Just stop trying to persuade me and others with your non-existent, unfounded and factually debunked preconceived notions, arguments and assertsions, all of which totally fly in the face of reality. As they say, "it is what it is."
I'm now getting sick of you trouncing out the race issue here. I never even thought about it because I was paying attention to the guy, not the skin tone. I am just so shocked that people of your intellectual capacity can't seem to find your own way past the whole "black/white thing," at the very instant you condemn others for failing to do so, that I'm about ready to vomit just now.
You think the country "isn't ready" to elect a "black man." What the hell does that mean, "not ready?" We have to be "ready?" what the hell for?
Speaking of elitist crap. Posh, you're one of the worst offenders I've seen so far. Why don't you just come out and say it: YOU won't vote for him because he's black. Get over yourself. It's you who isn't "ready." The polls should be in your face telling you you're just wrong on this issue. So just get honest with yourself and get over it.
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted June 17, 2007 04:42 AM |
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Just one more thing:
If you've read the memoirs you'd know that Obama left his first law stint and took a job doing local community work in south-side Chicago for thirteen thousand dollars a year, sight unseen. And you're talking about how Hillary isn't an elitist because she didn't stay home and bake cookies as the First Lady.
HMPH. Truly amazing how you compare things you so obviously know nothing about.
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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The_Gootch
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
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posted June 17, 2007 06:11 AM |
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Quick quips
The electoral college system with the way it's set up actually increases the chance that a minority candidate can win immeasurably. And I will be more than happy to explain it to anyone who can't figure it out for themselves.
Second, as bort pointed out, there is an awful lot of silence coming from the Gore camp. It will be very interesting to see what he does and where his allegiances lie. Don't be surprised by a midnight candidacy that really throws the Dem race up in arms.
As for illegal immigration, what're you going to do? As long as the capitalists keep people believing that the enemy is their brown neighbor the Dow is going to continue to reach record levels as companies report record profits. I have no doubt the Baby Boomers have the power to stop it. Do you think they have any interest? This is the most self-absorbed, self-centered generation in our nation's history. The Dow is their retirement account.
Also, blame the Catholic church for a neanderthal approach to birth control that has helped to produce a population bulge in developing nations.
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Shai-Hulud
Known Hero
Sicomor
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posted June 17, 2007 08:10 AM |
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Not much of my business...
I actually despise politics. I am more of a man who thinks knowledge in its pure sense should be looked up to and not some crazy political fanatics.
But...
Consis, if you really like Obama and sorts things out, how he can unite the american people and in general you think he would make a good president ( I really think you need a good one by now, after the last 2-3 ) you won't vote for him beacuse you think others won't vote? I don't get your thinking. I mean, sure you wouldn't vote for some little guy who is only known in 1-2 states. But Obama is known, Obama is respected and all that.
Remember I am not saying :"Ha! Go vote for Obama!". I mostly have no idea who he is. I am saying you are not thinking right. It's just like saying you like whisky, but you will go with gin beacuse others go with gin.
Edit: Being a little cinical here: If Hillary got tough blows from the time she was the First Lady and has thrown herself in a fight she couldn't have win, hope that she got her lesson by now or else you will be adding one more president on the Black List of presidents.
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~~~Azzy~~~
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted June 17, 2007 08:15 AM |
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Edited by Consis at 08:17, 17 Jun 2007.
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Peacemaker,
You are blatantly insulting and attacking me. Do as you please. You're angry about the whole race issue because you're just like a lot of people who don't like how ugly the truth is. You go ahead and hold tight your faith in those wonderful scientific polls of yours and I'll keep talking to people in person. We'll see what happens.
I have to admit though I'm not angry even though you've lost control. I admit (to be realistic) that Hillary cannot win against any republican (except for maybe Tom Tancredo-lol). But I'm going to come out of this election having voted my conscience. I believe in my candidate. I believe she is the best this country has to offer at this time. I will not abandon my candidate.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted June 17, 2007 05:57 PM |
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SIGH
Don't take any of this personally, Consis. It is my intention to attack your logic, not you. It's not meant to be personal and I'm not taking your stuff personally either, although if you review some of your posts to me I clearly could have as well. I still love you and I still miss you. My numerous conversations with you have been some of the most stimulating and have helped me articulate my analysis and vet my thinking greatly. For that, I am grateful to you.
I don't know beans about the demographic makeup of Oregon, and you probably don't know beans about Colorado. But we're both talking to those around us, and it's becoming increasingly apparent that we're getting some pretty substantially different feedback.
It's important to remember that this election will not be determined by either state. It's a national issue, which is why I look to the polls for some instruction on which way the wind is blowing beyond the close circle of my little local world here.
You're casting your support behind Hillary Clinton because you believe that's what you should be doing and you're following your heart. As a voter, I can think of no better reason. It doesn't HAVE to do with anything about Obama or any of the others. I just want you to hold your own feet to the fire and realize you don't have to concoct reasons for not voting for someone else.
I am backing another candidate for different but equally valid reasons, which is what democracy is all about.
More power to us both, my friend.
<EDIT>
Gootch:
You never call. You never write.
Check your call messages once in a while, man.
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted June 18, 2007 12:02 AM |
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Edited by Consis at 00:02, 18 Jun 2007.
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Grrr
I AM NOT CONCOCTING MY REASONS FOR SUPPORTING MY CANDIDATE! I believe my reasons are soundly rooted on terra firma! I'm not making it up when I say Obama isn't going to be president based solely on his skin color! I don't like it! I don't want the world to be that way! But we've still got a lot of work to do! It's a horrible thing for me to say, yes I know this! But what am I supposed to? Am I supposed to ignore all the people I've met in my lifetime? Am I supposed to forget all the places I've traveled to in this country? Maybe you don't have it where you are in Colorado and maybe it isn't where The_Gootch is in Illinois but it is in so many places! Right now people are turning this whole immigration issue into a racially charged one! Isn't that just infuriating?
Well I'm frustrated! I know how it sounds and I know it doesn't hold water under logic and everything that makes sense in this world. I don't know exactly what to do about it. I may never know exactly what to do about it. We as a country may never know exactly what to do about it. I'm doing the only thing that I believe is the most helpful. In my mind my candidate is exactly the right person representing exactly the right step in the right direction for this country to take. I understand your logic for choosing Obama but even if he weren't seen as ethnic even then I would still not vote for him. Where is his experience? I need more experience!
I'm too upset to continue this post. I need to walk away and calm down.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted June 18, 2007 03:36 AM |
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Alright.....
I've calmed down. Now that I've found my composure again let me say something that makes sense. Peacemaker you threw a bunch of links at me and I did check them and read them all. You also wanted me to read a book about Obama. Please tell me more about this book. You emphasized that it was very important in helping you come to decide on Obama to be your candidate. Why?
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted June 20, 2007 02:55 AM |
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Hi Consis --
Coupla frontnotes here.
First, many close to me know this but you might not. Since I got my old job back, I have very infrequent opportunities to respond at my home e-mail address, which is now my only option. So if you (or anyone else) don't hear from me for long stretches, just know that it is my current incapacity to respond in a timely fashion. I miss visiting Heroes every day like I used to, terribly. And you're one of my favoriates and my most missed.
Second, You stated in one of your recent posts that I claimed you were concocting reasons to vote fore Sen. Clinton. If you review, that's not what I said. What I said was the you were concocting reasons not to vote for someone else (Barack Obama). There's a big difference. From what I've seen, you decided a long time ago who represented you the best. When you reach that point is when you "fall in love" (as I said) with your candidate. Your loyalties are sealed. Mine probably are too. But not without a huge amount of thought and debate behind that decision, for either of us. Consis, if more people in this country took this process as seriously as you (and I) do, then we'd be better for it. You've vetted your own thinking and you still come up with the same answer. You are following your heart. Like I said, I respect that.
Here's a little demonstrative story to support your following your heart:
When I was in college, my best friend got pregnant during her senior year. We two were a couple of the people in charge of that whole institution. The father turned out to be an alcoholic drug user who concealed his true identity from her until she found out she was pregnent, and then he came clean and separated from her. I tried and tried to talk her out of having this baby. I wanted her to finish college and graduate with me. I talked to her over and over for about six or seven weeks; trying to convince her that her planned life would be over if she were to have a baby just then.
After she put up with our "vetting" (translate debate) process for that long, we met for coffee one day and she told me her final decision: She was going to have the baby. She acknowledged that it flew in the face of all the logic I had challenged her with, and she'd decided to go ahead and have the baby.
Upon that announcement, I got up and walked around the table and I hugged her. I congratulated her. And I told her I loved and admired her for her hard-fought, hard-won decision.
So why was she so shocked? I figured she knew that I was simply challenging her thinking, and once she vetted the process and stood up to my challenges and still said she was going to do it, that I would respect her for surviving the vetting process and sticking with her decisions. But she was shocked. I explained to her that I was simply trying to get her to think through every conceivable outcome, every possibility, and every alternative, and that she had done that, and that her decision remained the same. Our friendship was more cemented than ever.
That boy became a virtuoso violinist and is now a student at a high-level university. He was one of the most beautiful babies I have ever see and one of the most talented individuals I have ever known.
So, returning back to you. I hope the message of that story doesn't get mired in some dialogue about abortion and pregnancy. The point is, Consis, that I challenge people on their thinking when I think they might be making a mistake. And people like you, and Barb, put up with my arguments, and when you tell me that you are going to follow your heart no matter how much sense my logic makes, or doesn't make, then I take off my hat, and I kneel, and I say to you: I respect your decision.
Sometimes, when you follow your heart, things happen that you might never have expected. Sometimes logic accounts for nothing in the end. Hence, your statement:
Quote:
In my mind my candidate is exactly the right person representing exactly the right step in the right direction for this country to take.
(REF: HILLARY CLINTON}
Now, on the second point: I read the book long after I recognized the talent. I have watched this young man (he's younger than me) bound down the isles of the Senate floor and pull people from both sides of the isle to begin senate-floor dialogues when the Congress was so divided they wouldn't even look at each other. I've listened to his lines of questioning during confirmation hearings when the other members were either simply reciting glowing affusions for one of Bush's candidates, or tearing them a new one, and watched him deal more diplomatically with highly contentious situations than anyone in Congress for fifty years.
My reading of the book was a happenstance when it was laid on my desk after an incident in my office that you and I will have to talk about on the side at some point. Upshot is: I had already decided to back Obama based on my observations of him in the Senate, and the book came long after that. It's just that when I read it, what I observed as an unprecedented talent made more sense, especially to me as a mixed-race person, than my observations alone did without that background. I recommend it to others so that they will have some context within which to judge the man, which they might not otherwise have because they aren't C-Span junkies like me.
So, what I'm telling you is that the book had little influence in my decision to back him. But what it did was to explain to me perhaps some of the reasons that he is as diplomatically developed as he is. Now, you have to read the book yourself, if you want to know whom it is you're deciding against.
I hope this all makes sense.
Thank you again for being one of the most persistent political sparring partners I think I've ever had, my friend Consis.
In the meantime, I'm getting up from the hyperspace table where we've been having coffee together, and I'm walking around that table. And I'm hugging you. Congratulations, my friend, for having made a very hard-vetted, hard-won decision. And I love you and admire you for your convictions.
P.S. I won't be back for a while because I'm going on vacation in just a day or so.
Miss you everyone!
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted June 20, 2007 05:51 PM |
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Edited by Consis at 17:54, 20 Jun 2007.
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Peacemaker,
That's one of my arguments about Obama. It seems he has found a real talent for being able to bring together lawmakers and politicians in washington. You said you liked how he was able to bring together people from both sides of the isle.....in the senate. One of my arguing points for him is: How well does he relate to the average american? He can inspire the wealthy and the established but what about the middle class? Do you think we (the middle class) are all going to read his book? I am cautious to place such weight on a single book especially in regards to deciding whom to be President of the United States and leader of the free world.
Neither do I approach my own candidate with such emphasis on a single book detailing her life story. You shouldn't either. But that very strange rule should only apply to the candidate for the presidency. It can be likened to a candidate paying very good money to a very well respected painter to draw a picture of him/her in the best possible light and portrayal. Neither do I EVER listen to polls. I believe polls feed the A.D.D. culture that is currently thriving in this country; which is one of the things I think is wrong with our country. I think most people consider answering polls a waste of time. The only persons who do take them seriously might most likely be career politic goers. You mentioned that you like to see which way the wind is blowing. Need I remind you of those pictures of Senator Kerry wind surfing? (which were taken not far from where I live) I think the very best way to measure where the opinions are heading is to look at current relevant tangible concrete markers such as voting records, job experience, voting turnouts, 3-year market histories, listening to people complain whom can be proven are telling the truth, and reading good journalism from prominent news agencies that are remaining relatively objective. And I stress the word 'relative'. I mean relative within a human context. I also do not pay much attention to science fanatics or religious fanatics even though we will see absurd bloc voting voting in both zealous groups. Pick and choose either of those communities and you will see the leader dictating to the followers whom to vote for and on which measures to specifically vote down or up. I have in fact been present on more than one occasion during such draconian events.
And don't worry yourself about when you post. I've been here for more than a few years and in all the time that I have been reading your posts I have become accustomed to your pattern. You are mostly sporadic but do tend to come and go in periods of clumps. For a few months you might be consistently posting and then gone. During the gone-time you'll use the bort philosophy of drive-by posting. (but not nearly as infrequent as he does) That may go on for some time before you return for another clump of posts for a month or two and then life calls you back and you're back to drive-by posting. I'd say you are 75% drive-by poster and 25% clump poster. I'm comfortable with whatever style of posting you choose.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 20, 2007 07:48 PM |
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I say that we should vote for politicians if we agree with them, not by looking at whom they appeal to.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted June 21, 2007 06:24 PM |
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Hi again guys -- time for just one more post before we head out.
(LOL -- love your description of the way I post! It's so true!)
mvassilev: Obama stands for pretty much everything I believe in as most important. I trust that Consis feels the same about Clinton. But that's not the point. the point is that when others make unfounded assertions that your candidate can't win, one is moved to demonstrate otherwise. These groundless rumors that Obama doesn't have sufficient broad-based support only serve to discourage others from voting for him, despite their preference for him, and despite that the rumors are unfounded. As a campaign supporter I feel it is only my duty to respond to such claims with the facts. <EDIT> Ya ne Znala Shtobue Vui eez Russia. Dobri Den! (Man, that's hard on this keyboard)
Coupla points in response to your post, Consis:
Quote:
How well does he relate to the average american? He can inspire the wealthy and the established but what about the middle class?
1) Obama's appeal is anything but confined to the upper class. Your read on this is almost the exact opposite of what's actually happening in the Obama campaign. In fact, this is the most grassroots campaign I've ever personally witnessed. The middle and lower classes were where he garnered the bulk of that 26 million he was donated before the first disclosure period. Every time, and I mean EVERY time I attend an event, the broad demographic range of attendants blows my mind. Obama does not have a bunch if big-money powerful supporters (like some others I can think of). On the contrary, the sheer numbers of middle- and lower- class donors were what compensated for the fact the donations themselves were on the average a comparative fraction of the average donations to Clinton and the others. If you want to see the actual numbers go visit his website at Obama 08.com.
2) On the book: Quote:
Do you think we (the middle class) are all going to read his book? I am cautious to place such weight on a single book especially in regards to deciding whom to be President of the United States and leader of the free world.
Quote:
It can be likened to a candidate paying very good money to a very well respected painter to draw a picture of him/her in the best possible light and portrayal.
First, The fact that the book I'm referring to (as well as his other book, The Audacity of Hope,) was on the NYT Best Sellers list for several months should tell you about whether people in this country are willing to investigate candidates for themselves. The only remaining question is whether you are willing to be one of them.
Second, Consis, I offer up that book to make a very specific point, not to give you or anyone else the sole basis on which to decide. You asked me what Obama has done, said you didn't know, and all but implied that he hadn't done anything except be a senator for a couple of years. I suggested an autobiography that offers you a wealth of information on that point. Now you challenge me with the fact the the whole country isn't going to read the book. I swear, sometimes I think you deliberately miss the point in every turn of this discussion. Well, either you want to investigate this guy, and find out for yourself whether your presumptions about him are correct, or you don't, but instead prefer to remain uninformed and make one innacurate assertion after another about him and the situation in general. You apparently don't think it's important enough to investigate this guy even though, as you yourself said, we're choosing "the leader of the free world" here. That's your choice, and your responsibility. But you must expect me to answer your specific challenges if you're going to make them, particularly when they come in the manner of a string of unfounded, ill-informed and misleading pot-shots.
Also, the notion that the autobiography paints Obama in "the best possible light" is laughable at best. But you'll have to read it to see why. He was brutally honest about his deficits, and clearly, clearly wrote it at a time when thinking about running for president was probably about like thinking of flying to the moon for him. I'll give you just one hint: HE INHALED. Among other things.
Here it is: http://www.randomhouse.com/crown/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780307383419
3) Quote:
You mentioned that you like to see which way the wind is blowing. Need I remind you of those pictures of Senator Kerry wind surfing?
When I talked about which way the wind was blowing it was in specific response to your assertions that Obama can't win. The country's constituency is speaking loud and clear as to who is more likely to win in the generals, and who is not. So in your current set of responses I guess I'm "Damned if I do, damned if I don't." You claim he can't win, then I send you data that suggests otherwise, and you point a finger at me for demonstrating "which way the wind is blowing." Consis, my doing that, as a voter, to counter your claim in hot political debate, is an entirely different thing than Kerry, as a candidate, seeing "which way the wind is blowing" before taking a position on an issue. But I'm sure you know that. I just chose a loaded set of terms to make my point.
4) Quote:
Neither do I EVER listen to polls.
Consis, you tend to ignore, obfuscate and/or avoid data that runs against your position in general. That's the problem here. The fact is, while it's true they're not scientifially precise, presidential polls do tend to give an accurate snapshot of the mood of the country. Neither of us believes in following them religiously. But to ignore them completely is an equal mistake.
Anyway, I'll be back soon (about a week or two). I hate to leave the discussion at this point, though.
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted June 21, 2007 08:48 PM |
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Edited by Consis at 20:52, 21 Jun 2007.
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I Promise I'll Read The Book.......However
The time has come Peacemaker. I'll be as clear as I possibly can about Obama. He can't win his own party's nomination. I'll go so far as to accurately predict the outcome of his bid for party nominee. I predict that he will gain no more than 30% and no lower than 23% of the vote. He is an exceptional American. No one can argue against that much. But he is not presidential material, not yet. Remember what I tell you.....no more than 30%. Behold him for what he is: a fascinating individual with tremendous potential. Just think about it. Who among any of us could bring 30% of all the people of the United States together in support for your own plans for the future of this country? 30%! That in and of itself is one accomplishment that no one will soon forget! Here is a man that will help us as a nation to take steps in trying to create a better future for our children! 30%! There is no shame in such a feat. Methinks it will be a marker to Americans that we still have much work to do. We have come a long way on the road to racial equality, further than any other nation on God's green earth! This will be yet another sign to the rest of the world that we do indeed lead the pack! During our time in voting for party nomination I could not be more proud to have him on my side of the political isle. He is a good man but not a president for today. In the coming years I've no doubt that he will be instrumental in helping to forge the moral fiber knitted and bound by all that is good in this world at the very heart of our beloved country. He will help us leave this United States better than when we found it. I would even go so far as to say that he might actually do something extraordinary that will etch his memory in the minds of Americans for generations.
I respect your voting for such a man. I have no doubt that you have been more than thorough in your own calculations to choose whom best to represent you as an American. Your candidate is indeed a worthy selection. And to be fair I will read his biography out of respect for you. That is a promise from me to you.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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