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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Not in the Manual
Thread: Not in the Manual This thread is 26 pages long: 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 ... 10 20 26 · «PREV / NEXT»
maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted March 20, 2006 07:18 PM

I think angelo is right.
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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted March 20, 2006 08:17 PM

Angelo allready explained it. Magic arrow represents all magic schools so if a creature is immune to one magic school it will be immune to magic arrow. But no units are immune to either earth, air or water so the only creatures immune to magic arrow are the creatures immune to fire.
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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted March 20, 2006 09:15 PM

Earth elementals are not immune to haste, water elementals can be cloned (I think) etc.
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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted March 20, 2006 09:39 PM

As u pointed out correct Xarfax, fire-elementals (and phoenixes...sultans...) are immune to ALL firemagic.
But there is NO unit which is immune to ALL watermagic (u can cure, dispel, teleport, clone.... water-elementals, but u cannot curse, blind, bloodlust.... fire-elementals!)...or ALL earthmagic....or ALL airmagic

This is why those "ALL fire_ magic immune" creatures are immune to magic arrow.

But i think we donīt need to ruin this good thread with endless discussions coz of 1 rumour out of 100...
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Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted March 21, 2006 12:30 AM bonus applied.
Edited by angelito on 30 Mar 2006

I've finished testing 51-105.  It was a lot more time consuming than I expected. Xarfax, you owe me for an entire weekend of work. I'll settle for a case of German beer.

All tests were done using HOMM Complete at normal 100% difficulty. I didn't consider difficulty level while testing. If anyone thinks something will be different at a higher level, more testing may be needed.  Also, I have saved tests maps for most of these if anyone has any questions about them.

First is a list of line numbers that were OK. Following will be more detail with clarifications, misleading info, or FYI type information.


Tested OK with no comments:

53-54, 56-57, 59-61, 63-64, 72-75, 77-82, 85-86, 88, 90-94, 96-98, 100-105


Tested OK IMO OK for tavern rumors as is, but with FYI comments or very minor clarifications. They are also listed again in the next section.

52, 55, 58, 67, 69, 71, 89



Details for all the rest.

#2  Is in the printed AB manual (page 5).
#41 Is in the ROE manual under fortress town.

Quote:
51. Balistics will let you cast first in a siege, if not your opponent does have the artillery skill on a higher level.

The level of ballistics or artillery doesn't matter. And creature speed doesn't matter.

The defender with any level artillery ALWAYS casts first.

The attacker with ballistics casts first ONLY if the defender does NOT have artillery.

Note: I think this is only for AB or later.

Quote:
52. Dig a hole at the coast and no boat can land there.

FYI: If the coastline is diagonal, a boat can land between two holes. A third hole must be dug to form a triangle.

Quote:
55. Scholars and Witch Huts can give Secondary Skills a Hero Class normally cant have.

True. Knight got necro from scholar and Overlord got water from hut.

FYI:  I visited huts 500 times and necro didn't show up once.  I know for sure I've seen it in games, but the times I remember I was playing WOG which may be different.

Quote:
58. Liches donít hurt your own Necro creatures.

True, but the area affect doesn't hurt ANY necro creatures.

Quote:
62. With Dispell or Remove Obstackles you can detect landmines and magic mines without using those spells

Remove obstacle must be at expert to detect mines and quicksand.

Dispel doesn't detect mines or quicksand.  At expert, it just removes them.  Basic and advanced gives the error "That spell will affect no one"

Quote:
65. Damage done by Catapult is 1 or 2 and is only influenced by Balistics. Walls have 2 damage points.

There is also a chance it does zero damage. I think I read somewhere it's 10% chance. I didn't test enough to say for sure, but 10% "seems" reasonable.

Quote:
66. "Hot" type of moats make 120 damage, the others only 90.

It's 90 and 70 damage.  Tower is 150 without hero.

FYI:
Castle, Moat, 70
Dungeon, Boiling Oil, 90
Fortress, Boiling Tar, 90
Inferno, Lava, 90
Necropolis, boneyard, 70
Rampart, Brambling Hedge, 70
Stronghold, Spike Barrier, 70
Tower, Land Mine, 150
Conflux, Moat, 70

Quote:
67. You take only damage when you go into or stay in a moat. Not when you leave it.

FYI: If you wait and don't leave the second time you take damage twice.

Quote:
69. Magic mines dont work if you have 100% resistance, immunity or the recanters cloak with you. But they still explode if you have the red orb.

FYI: Fire Orb increases Tower mine damage.

Quote:
70. Best way to shoot a wall down is to target the adjacted turret.

This has gotta be the most boring damn test I've ever done.  Statistically my test was not large enough to say for sure on this. I attacked the wall and tower 30 times each at each of the three ballistics levels (total of 180).  My results showed:

Basic Ballistics: Better to aim at tower. 77% success aiming at tower vs 27% aiming at wall.
Advanced Ballistics: Debatable. 57% aiming at tower vs 47% aiming at wall.
Expert Ballistics: Better to aim at wall.  57% aiming at wall vs 37% aiming at tower.

The success rate is the chance of taking out the intended wall section with one double-shot or two single shots.

Two point damage to the walls seemed pretty rare, but it was common to take out a tower with one shot.

Quote:
71. Loynis special does always give 3 speed to Lvl1-2, 2 speed to Lvl3-4, 1 speed to Lvl5-6 and no speed to Lvl7.

Applies to att/def also.  Note that the increase is in *addition* to the normal spell increase. The level and Spell Power of Loynis doesn't matter.

Quote:
76. If Thorgrim does have 100% resistance only dispel works on his creatures.

At the maximum level of 74, he still was affected by hostile spells, unless he also had resistance arts. At level 74 with no arts, he was ALWAYS affected by firewall, landmine and quicksand. All other spells he just had a real high resistance, but could still be affected. At level 74 with arts, all spells gave the message "That spell will affect no one".

Above level 74 weird things happened. (I think Angelito posted the maximum experience somewhere, but I couldn't find it. I remember it was a 31 bit number though, same as maximum gold) If he visited a tree, he jumped to level 88, then experience went negative after that.  Anyway, at level 88 he had 100% resistance. So he reaches it somewhere between 74 and 88.

Bottom line is he can't reach 100% resistance without running into game limits. I don't trust these results, can someone else verify this?

Quote:
83. Earthquake does randomly give up to 1 damage per walls, but only hits a wall only 1 time per cast

I couldn't verify this for sure.  I never saw a wall detroyed first round. But I saw walls destroyed second round I'm 99% sure did not get touched round one. This was rare though, so #83 is true at least most of the time.

Quote:
84. Unlike Clones, Summoned Creatures wont diasappear on the battlefield when all allied creatures are dead.

All allied creatures don't have to be dead, only the cloned stack.

Quote:
87. Windmills give all types of resources except wood.

Doesn't give gold either.

Quote:
89. Disrupting ray cannot be dispelled nor cured.Antimagic doesnít work neither.

It won't cure it, but anti-magic will prevent it.

Quote:
95. Hyphnotize takes away all creature and art immunities.

I didn't test every possibility. This seems to work with arts (tested pendants of second sight, dispassion and holiness). But Hypnotized trogs couldn't be blinded and hypnotized Battle Dwarves resisted blind.

Quote:
99. Archangels, Archdevils, Golddragons and Ghostdragons do influence Moral or Luck on the battlefield even when they are already dead.

Gold Dragons don't affect luck.  The others are OK.


If I missed any, let me know. I should have it in my notes somewhere.  With 55 different tests, there's a decent chance for errors somewhere, but I'm sure someone will point them out.





Edit by angelito
Thx for the great effort making this good thread even better. +QP
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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted March 21, 2006 01:15 AM

83 is simply not true. Or I just dont understand it. You can destroy wall sections only by earthquakes. I sure did a few times. Or was that a bug?
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Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted March 21, 2006 01:36 AM
Edited by Binabik on 20 Mar 2006

The way I understood 83 was that you couldn't destroy a wall in one round. During my tests, I watched which walls were hit the first round, but it happens fast and is sometimes hard to tell. Then second round I only watched the walls that weren't hit round one. There were maybe three times I was 99% sure a wall got destroyed within one round, but NEVER in the first round.

Initially I was going to say the same as you, that 83 just isn't true. But since it was rare to happen, I think 83 is OK as is.

BTW I don't remember how many castle attacks I made, maybe 50-70, but that's just a guess. I went 1-2 rounds each time.


edit: Xarfax has stated in the past that all towns have the same wall strength. I always thought Fortress and some others had stronger walls. What I noticed during these tests is that Fortress walls are jagged on top making damage hard to see.  It's not that they are stronger, just harder to see the damage than other towns like Tower.

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Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted March 21, 2006 07:20 AM

The point is that he can't actually reach level 80.  And therefore can't get 100% resistance without arts.

If you set him up at level 74 where he needs just one more point to reach level 75, then give him one more point, he will jump to level 88. When he gets enough experience to reach another level, he jumps to level 166. Before reaching the next level, he will go to level 0 and his experience goes to a negative number.  It's the same type of thing that happens in a long game with a lot of dwarven treasuries. Above approximately 2 billion gold, it will go negative. (I've had this happen several times)
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Namerutan
Namerutan

Tavern Dweller
posted March 21, 2006 09:25 AM

The chances to hit each wall section rely on the ballistic skill as above:
Skill_Level---Keep----Tower---Gate----Wall
None----------5%------10%-----25%-----50%
Basic---------7%------15%-----30%-----60%
Advanced------7%------15%-----30%-----60%
Expert--------10%-----20%-----40%-----75%

Also, the damage inflicted as above:
Skill_Level---Nothing---1Point--2Points
None----------10%-------60%-----30%
Basic---------0%--------50%-----50%
Advanced------0%--------50%-----50%
Expert--------0%--------0%------100%

The wall sections has all the same hit points, and the same for all the town types.

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted March 21, 2006 11:56 AM

I see. Yes, I believe that is true. You cannot destroy a wall-section with earthquake in one go.
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Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted March 21, 2006 10:45 PM

Quote:
First of all i would thank you Binabik for his immense effort to contribute to this thread.

Thanks, but I still want my case of German beer. (A good Hefe-Weizen)

I look at this thread in a couple different ways. The goal is to create tavern rumors. The existing rumors are just hints about something without giving details.  For example a rumor for #77 might say something like:

"I hear a good diplomat can talk their way into the library before others can gain admitance"

On the other hand, it's good to know the details:

With basic diplomacy it can be entered at level 8
Advanced at level 6
Expert at level 4

Even though some of the stuff in this thread is technical and can't be put in a single line for the tavern, there's still been a lot of good discussion. I mean, when was the last time there was a 10 page thread in the Library that wasn't full of garbage?.....and in just a few weeks time.

Even if people's ideas don't make the tavern list, it would be nice to see the thread continue.  And along with the tavern rumors, maybe compile the technical stuff with more detail into a separate file.

------------------
About targeting the tower with balistics (#70)

I think I understood it. I targeted the lower wall 30 times and counted how many times it destroyed the wall. Then I targeted the lower tower 30 times and counted how many times it destoyed the wall.

At basic
targeting wall: 8/30 success destroying wall
targeting tower: 23/30 success destroying wall

At advanced
targeting wall: 14/30 success
targeting tower: 17/30 success

At expert
targeting wall: 17/30 success
targeting tower: 11/30 success

30 is not a very big sample size for this, but on expert when targeting the tower, it actually hit the tower too often to destroy the wall.  I can do more testing to get a larger sample size if you want. Or if you've already done it, let me know.

-----------------------
That reminds me of a couple more one liners.

Ranged units only do half damage over 10 hexes, and if the target is also behind castle walls they only do quarter damage.

Even if a castle's walls are completely destroyed, the remaining sections still give protection from ranged units.

or rumor style: "Even if a castle's walls are destroyed, you can still find places to hide from enemy archers."

another rumor style: "An archer captain once told me his archers do more damage in a seige after the walls are destroyed."
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Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted March 22, 2006 12:04 AM

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
84. Unlike Clones, Summoned Creatures wont diasappear on the battlefield when all allied creatures are dead.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All allied creatures don't have to be dead, only the cloned stack.

I think you dont get the meaning

Are you talking about making a ghost hero?  Or just winning the fight after all the creatures are dead and resurrecting? Yea, I missed your point. OK, I'll go along with #84 as is.

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
95. Hyphnotize takes away all creature and art immunities.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't test every possibility. This seems to work with arts (tested pendants of second sight, dispassion and holiness). But Hypnotized trogs couldn't be blinded and hypnotized Battle Dwarves resisted blind.

I didnt say a word about "resistance", you know there is a difference between immunity and resistance. Trogs dont have eyes not immunity.

I tested Dwarves just to see if it worked.  If #95 is true, what creatures does it work with? Maybe I'm forgetting some. Most creatures with immunity can't be hypnotized.

I retested with some more creatures. Hypnotized Efreet Sultans and Phoenix are still immune to curse, blind, etc.  Hypnotized Minataur Kings are not affected by sorrow (not an immunity, but I tested it).  Dragons, Titans, undead, elementals, mechanical can't be hynotized. So what creature immunity does this work for?

BTW, for those who don't know.  Even with 7 town types with undead, Minataur Kings still have +1 morale. Sorrow has no affect, but spirit of oppression gives them neutral morale.
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LegendMaker
LegendMaker


Promising
Famous Hero
The Metal Specialist
posted March 22, 2006 09:24 PM
Edited by LegendMaker on 22 Mar 2006

I've got flu, two tons of work IRL and my broadband modem died on me, so....

... Please excuse my not meeting the deadline (well, technically, I'm the one who gave myself this monday deadline, so I'm apologizing to myself... Which might very well be a good hint that I need some rest more than ever... ).

I'll still do my share of the testings, no matter what. Just don't expect them before the end of this week, please.

I'm on dial-up until I receive my new broadband modem. Back to the ****ing stone age...

I was offline the last few days, and it was a great pleasure to read these 2 full pages you guys added meanwhile !

About the Earthquake spell thingie :

Bin, did you test it with a hero that had Ballistics and made sure to NOT use the Catapult ? That's how I tested it in the first place, and I think that's the only reliable method to do that test.

It's very simple, in fact. I'm surprised you guys had so much trouble figuring it out for sure :

* Each time you cast Earthquake, it does 1 damage to 4 DIFFERENT sections of the sieged town. Earthquake NEVER hits twice the same section in the same cast.

So when you attack a town that has only a fort, you CAN break a wall in one cast, because walls only have 1 "HP".

When you attack a town that has a castle built, it is still possible that a wall section falls down after you cast EQ only once, but ONLY if the same section was ALSO hit by your Catapult (or one of your Cykes).

Hope this helped.

Oh, and course I agree : this thread is great in itself, it's a concentration of higly useful and rare info about the game, wether or not it all made it to the Xarfax-altered rumors of the tavern. So sure, it would be a waste to refrain posting more just because the list is closed.

Keep going, folks !

One for the road :

* When you don't have a capitol and you take your opponent's town that has HIS capitol... It becomes YOUR capitol ! Otherwise, it is unbuilt permanently.

Legendary rest.

ADDIT :

Almost forgot !
Quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
58. Liches donít hurt your own Necro creatures.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


True, but the area affect doesn't hurt ANY necro creatures.

That will be deleted...nothing new about it then.
Funny thing, that : my original, accurate and complete paragraph got summarized into a very short line that kept only a part of its info... Then Bin check that line and goes "hey ! it's incomplete"... And Xarfax (the one who cut the info that is missing in the first place) goes "hey ! you're right, let's toss it !" ROFLLMMFAO

For the record :
Quote:
Liches won't hurt Undead OF THE SAME ARMY.

But they WILL hurt any undead OPPONENT.

However, their Cloud Attack Special won't work on other undeads, so they will only hurt one target if the surrounding enemy units are all undeads (it will still work fine on any living unit, even if the target is an undead). Their special also CAN hurt your OWN units (if you have living troops and Liches in the same army).
I admit it would have been a lot easier if I had put it in one sentence from the start :

* Liches can shoot and damage any type of creature they want, but their area special will affect any living creatures and only those (even your own).

Deal ?

Legendary un-rest ?

PS :

How about crediting Csarmi's lines like this : (The pissed anonymous) ? lol

Okay, okay, time to swallow these pills and get some sleep, I know... Cough cough !
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Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted March 23, 2006 09:29 PM

Quote:
Minotaur Kings have positive morale that's their special. (And as I know it is in the manual)

Yea, the manual just says they have good morale. But that could mean different things, like +1 morale over other creatures, but could still be negative. I bet a lot of people don't know they ALWAYS have good morale, except Spirit of Oppression.  BTW, the sorrow spells does work on them, it just can't bring it below +1 morale.

Quote:
Bin, did you test it with a hero that had Ballistics and made sure to NOT use the Catapult

Yea, I had balistics and didn't shoot.

As for the Lich attack, what you are saying is true for all area affect spells and creature abilities....it can hurt your own creatures.


BTW Legend. If you're still sick, I can take over some of testing 1-50 if you want. Just let me know which ones. But no fair picking and choosing the ones that testing sucks, you have to pick a range of numbers.
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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted March 23, 2006 10:14 PM

I did not know Minotaurs had always positive morale until yesterday.
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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted March 23, 2006 10:37 PM

Same goes for halflings and their "+1 luck" speciality.
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Russ
Russ


Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
posted March 23, 2006 11:01 PM

Btw, how come I've never seen halfings get a lucky attack then?

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted March 24, 2006 08:57 AM

Well tx, I might be doing some testing, but I am burdened by work these days.

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LegendMaker
LegendMaker


Promising
Famous Hero
The Metal Specialist
posted March 24, 2006 11:35 AM

Quote:
BTW Legend. If you're still sick, I can take over some of testing 1-50 if you want. Just let me know which ones. But no fair picking and choosing the ones that testing sucks, you have to pick a range of numbers.
Thanks, that's very nice of you, Bin ! I'm still sick right now, but I should be fine in a couple of days ; it's just a flu after all : "rumors of my demise were slightly exagerated !"

Seriously, you've done more than your share already. Sit back and relax, man. Or do you really want a second case of german beer ?
Quote:
Tower units have a +1 morale.
If you have 1 Gremlin in your army, then it will say that it has +1 good morale, it says all troops of same alignment, even though you only have 1 gremlin in your army.
Will, Will, Will... You are really extending further the limits of my own "diplomacy skill" single-handedly, do you know that ?

1) Like Angel just told you while I was typing this, it is true for ANY town type.

2) It IS in the manual, the fact that having troops of only one alignment gives +1 Morale.

3) It says "TROOPS", not "slots" or "stacks". It doesn't matter how many troops you have. It can be only one unit. One unit can hardly be of two alignments, now, can it, Willy ?

PLEASE, Will, try to understand what I said to you countless times now : before you can teach, you must LEARN first ! LMAO

Legendary Flu (on dial-up to boot).
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Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted March 26, 2006 10:36 AM

Quote:
...sorry my work season started...i would like to give the project into the hands of Binabik and Csarmi. Would be great if u two would end this job!

You caught me when a new game arrived from Ebay, so I've been distracted the last few days.

Yea, I can finish the tavern project if you want.  When Legend gets done with the last tests, I'll make a new list.

@Legend  How's the testing going? I can still do some if you're not up to it. Let me know which ones.
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