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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Heroes 5 Strategy: Playing Haven Faction
Thread: Heroes 5 Strategy: Playing Haven Faction This thread is 24 pages long: 1 ... 6 7 8 9 10 ... 20 24 · «PREV / NEXT»
The_Gootch
The_Gootch


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted August 25, 2007 07:59 PM

Good debate going on here.

It will help others to know what you're talking about when discussing things like hero preference.  We have single players vs. hot seaters vs. theorycrafters vs. the greatest sinners of them all, tohers.

Things that work for one style might be inferior when applied to others.

For example, havenlover talks about Vittorio's virtues.  The general consensus here is that for certain styles of games War Machinists like Vittorio dominate.  The shorter the game the greater the dominance.  

Some people may not understand where felunio's coming from when he/she talks about being able to make 15th level in one week.  Toh maps tend to be sick rich.  I've known that from my days of H3 and the overall philosophy for custom map making hasn't changed all that much.

I've gradually shifted my interests over the years and enjoy longer, more strategic games with my friends.  I only play random maps, large, multiple players, strong creatures, and choice of town.  We also play Ghost Mode, which provides us with an extra area of strategy.

Noone deserves to be screwed by terrain penalty with random towns.    For me and my style of play, the power of the War Machinists is weakened considerably for games lasting 3 months or more.  For the most part I need to swap First Aid tent for Catapult for my games.

I've found great power with Luck/Resistance and MR boots with Haven against heroes other than Warlocks.  Leadership and Aura of Swiftness is an absolute necessity for this to be viable though.  Palys need to be guaranteed a first strike.

You only really need to resist one Puppet Master to watch the hopes and dreams of your necro opponent just wash away.  2 stacks of Inquisitors helps to counter the Mass Slow/Weakness that you might get hit with.  

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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted August 25, 2007 09:59 PM

Quote:
Fortress got 15% fpr war machines , some other factions got quite hight chance too. Nodoby dominates.

Inferno's ballista and fortress' ballista are 2 very different things. It's impossible for a runemage(and most other heros) to abuse it like a demonlord can because their retals are too weak - they won't scare AI easily. Grok will simply visit everything important sooner, get shackles and execute(familiars drains mana) the opponent, plain and simple. Pretty much nothing can be done about it.
 
Quote:
I had so many fun games with so clever tactics used on both sides that i really miss them (i havent played for few months)

Interesting.. care to share with some of them? For me, it's just getting war machines, shackles and then executing someone who just don't have it or have it weaker.
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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted August 27, 2007 08:52 AM bonus applied.
Edited by alcibiades at 11:42, 28 Aug 2007.

Quote:
   quote:Fortress got 15% fpr war machines , some other factions got quite hight chance too. Nodoby dominates.


Inferno's ballista and fortress' ballista are 2 very different things. It's impossible for a runemage(and most other heros) to abuse it like a demonlord can because their retals are too weak - they won't scare AI easily. Grok will simply visit everything important sooner, get shackles and execute(familiars drains mana) the opponent, plain and simple. Pretty much nothing can be done about it.


   quote:I had so many fun games with so clever tactics used on both sides that i really miss them (i havent played for few months)


Interesting.. care to share with some of them? For me, it's just getting war machines, shackles and then executing someone who just don't have it or have it weaker.


This post just proves that you got neither imagination nor skill. Its not about who has bigger ballista.

Some of awesome strategies.
- getting arcane armor with runemage
- getting arcane armor with inferno
- fortifying yourself in a dwarven castle destroy opponents ballista and  shootout his troops having your opponent shackled
- let a fortified dwarf to rot in his castle and conquer the map and kill them later on with more superior hero simultailiously preventing him from leaving his castle without a threat of fight.
- raising horde of zombies with orson and swarm over 120 dougal marksman/crossbowmen  and huge ballista with them on day 12
- making sylvan sorcerer more powerful than warlock  sorcerer
- killing abandon mines hordes, mages and other sick stuff on day 1 or 2, killing 7 emerald dragons on day 7
- getting war machines with sylvan quickly(no its not luck, sometimes you need to go through all witch huts available to get it)
- getting a great mage without returning to castle to get spells
- getting a great mage without even building a mage guild in the castle
- getting phoenix asap and rush a guy
- getting banish asap and kill a phoenix rusher
- getting cold death and circle of ice with necro

and almost all of those things happen within 2 weeks mark. wanna ask how? skill and strategy, thats how.

These are just few that sticked me in mind. Most of them were from my games. Emeralds and haunted mines,mages are from others games.

For all those things you need to have a plan or even few of them if one fails and play good, creep like mad and have the edge over your opponent, keep pressure on them and attack them quickly before he manage to complete his goals. In my opinion this is strategy. On bigger maps everybody has plenty of time to do whatever they want so one aspect of game is neglected. You all talk about how big maps have more strategies than small but i guess you are poor strategiscs coz you cant see above war machine rush.

What is more i can give you some data that i believe is a good evidence of how strategy is important in small maps. Sq79 is at ther moment best toh player. But even him lost all of his games on Heritage of deleb(at some poind, dunno bout now). For me its just a plain evidence that if you have a good strategy you can bring the best down, at least most of times. Losing all games by the best player is not something that can happen coz of bad luck. It means that his opponents had to do some good moves in order to win all games.


I assume you keep saying about AI because you have promlems to defeat it. My advise for you is to first learn the game then giving advice others.
Quote:
rok will simply visit everything important sooner, get shackles and execute(familiars drains mana) the opponent, plain and simple. Pretty much nothing can be done about it.


You mean you can do nothing about it? I remember you said it many times. Well if YOU cant do anything about something dont say it cant be done. You mentioned groks pros but you didnt mention runmage advantages. Obliously you either dont know them or dont care about them , anyway this is crap analizys  so again please gain some knowledge and experiewnce because you are all over the topic and you are a crappy player. GL on improving your skill.


Moderator's note: Bonus applied for overall quality discussion and contribution throughout thread.

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bloucester
bloucester


Famous Hero
MSN can go to hell
posted August 27, 2007 11:30 AM

all this sounds really good but can u please clarify if it applies to toh maps, random maps, fixed maps and so on,cuz there is a difference and you should know it.

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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted August 27, 2007 11:36 AM bonus applied.
Edited by alcibiades at 11:42, 28 Aug 2007.

Well, maybe I'm just skilled enough to free Deleb with Grok before week 1 ends? Then, I guess I just have to take the shiny Ring of Speed, 15 succubus and go through teleport to get more imbaness. Deleb goes to my castle and she can kill pretty much anything around it. Then, I break lvl 7 guarding my oppoenent with Grok, find him and execute him. Even, IF I lose somehow(yeah, right..) I have a leveled up Deleb. This is on hard btw, but on heroic it can be even easier because more xp is given.

And plz, don't even try telling fairy tales like luck doesn't matter in this map. Getting war machines with sylvan is a perfect example of being lucky. For demonlords on this map, getting slow is also a great examle. Making your game 66%(or even more) easier(your hero and troops move relatively 66% faster vs mass slowed troops). Getting summoning with a demonlord is also pretty wicked -> fire warriors. Of course, Grok has the highest chance to get summoning from all demonlords..
About runemage advantages. They just don't start with log and have pathetic chance for getting it. Of course, you can go into theory and tell some other fairy tales how "log is not that important here" and "it's all about skill not luck". Amost always both being lucky and being skilled are crucial in this game, sorry.. But then again, skilled playes are more lucky overall because they generally create more opportunities to get it. But that doesn't mean that a skilled player will not lose vs a less skilled player. Lvl ups, skills offered, lucky/morale - all matters.

You mentioned Orson and 120 Marksem. I have a 1 tip for you.
Guild lvl 4 should be the first thing you built with necro. Then just use the spells.. Maybe you'll find something surprising about how many marksman can be killed with spells and 7 single ghosts. Of, course it matter what spells are given. No amount of skill will give you other spells in your guild. It's really that simple - luck matters whether you like it or not.

And of course, you are wrong about big maps. Here, leveling one hero won't get you far. You need to abuse vs poor AI and fight. Sometimes, you need to split forces/artifacts and choice is not always obvious. For example Necro with 1 hero -> less haunted mines. A low level necromacer with expert summoning can kill awfully a lot -> phoenix, fire trap, mark..

Academy -> way less resources for artificer. Same as above - no creeping problems for them.

Haven -> way less gold for training. Knight sucks at creeping unless someone knows how to use guardian angel but I wouldn't expect it..

Fortress -> may be a difference between getting Thanes/Priests/whatever or not.

So, bigs maps are like you said but ONLY IF you use 1 hero.


Moderator's note: Bonus applied for overall quality discussion and contribution throughout thread.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted August 27, 2007 12:57 PM

My bet is expert warmachines and some dark for freeing Deleb on week 1 I still cannot remember if the pitlords start as lots or pack, they should be a bit tough to take out that early. Have not tried inferno on that map and I'm still green on its ways so I'd be interested to know how you did that.
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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted August 27, 2007 04:35 PM

The basic trick is luring AI to your war machines and then just teleport away your main power stack(familairs), which just before being teleported attacked some AI stack, which retal was "stolen" by gated fodder.

They key to break lvl high tiers(6-7) is Mark of the Damned. Just gate all on the opposite side of battlefield, AI moves forward and then AI of course turns back to attack the gated troops, mark is triggered, ballista keeps shooting etc. Of course, it's not all that possible because lvl7 troops REALLY differ from each other.. Emeralds block -> no breaking week one. And mass slow really makes all the difference - it allows troops to escape from war machines easly. So that AI has no other choice than to keep attacking war machines. Getting fire warriors also help a lot.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted August 27, 2007 05:47 PM

That's more or less what I use but still even if you split imps to avoid losses from pit lords won't they fry your butt with meteor shower?
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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted August 27, 2007 06:04 PM

Yeah, it's the luck part - the number varies from 5-25. But still, you can use some secondary(wizard fits perfectly) hero + fodder + some destructive spell(arrow, or better ice bolt) and "taste" the things that will come Kill some of the pits and run away. By doing this also AI forces split may change.

Anyway, so what if something dies - Deleb is priceless It's like your 2nd main with shiny ballista. Grok's tent should keep you alive. Hellfire helps too - it bypass the defense.
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LucJPatenaude
LucJPatenaude


Disgraceful
Known Hero
posted August 27, 2007 06:24 PM

Relevance of this topic?

None.

To answer this topic is: always play according to how much you know of the terrain surrounding your main city.

Isolated with dimension gates? or, directly connected by 3 to 4 days travel time to get to the nearest neighboring enemy city?

Can you have enough time to build up your economy and military dwellings within the 2 first weeks of month 1 of the current game in progress? or, Do you have to amass as many level 1 and level 2 troops for rather storming the enemy/defend the fort of the village/town?

Just like Chess, what is your imperial decision to execute on day 1/week 1/month 1 of the chosen map of game to play/wage war?

Have to love the Fog of War. Totally unknown world past the few hundred meters of the front gate of your tribal faction's village. Have to rely on independent scouts for knowing where to go first for rather resource deposits found by pure coincidencial luck of the scout's sudden discoveries and, to know where are the closest mines and neutral creatures garding them. Resources or, attempt to defeat the neutral army for the mine to be flagged as our own, on day 1/week 1/ month 1.

That is what I truly love about HoMM of any version of its series.


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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted August 27, 2007 06:31 PM

Quote:

Relevance of this topic?

None.

To answer this topic is: always play according to how much you know of the terrain surrounding your main city.

Translation: I have absolutely no idea how to contribute to this discussion so I'll throw around some random general truths that work for everything. Maybe my superb use of English will make them think I know what I am saying.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted August 27, 2007 06:42 PM

haha lol

back to the topic, I think haven player should ignore lesser creeps and go straight for powerful walkers - as soon as they are able to -, which get in the range of the precise shot quickly - which means bang bang you're dead. Best ones: treants, hydras and bulky level 5-7 ones. Note that magmas are an easy prey actually, if you have tactics to prevent them from toasting your marksmen. it's especially profitable to get utopias asap. i have to experiment a bit to find the smallest number of marksmen capable of clearing an utopia without any losses.

That way, you won't be behind your enemy in terms of experience and arties, and maybe even a bit ahead if you're playing against a faction that can't clear utopia THAT easily.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted August 27, 2007 06:47 PM

Yeah I remember the first month utopia tips back then Maybe you could try to test how different it is with Dougal, a random hero and Vittorio. My money would be on Dougal for an easier win, at least where those bulky creeps are concerned but I wonder how faster he could take a utopia with minimal risk.
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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted August 27, 2007 07:14 PM

Dougal with war machines and dark is a pretty soild utopia clearer. Mass slow, frenzy, precise shot, +5 spellpower perk, +3 attack to marksman from war machines, triple ballista, a tent to minimalize marksmen losses. I mean even if utopia is cleared with no loses it only means that it should have been cleared earlier. Playing haven is always pushing to make risks because less gold = less training or less troops in general.
Still, war machines and dark must be offered, slow and frenzy must be somehow learned.. so annoying.
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LucJPatenaude
LucJPatenaude


Disgraceful
Known Hero
posted August 27, 2007 07:41 PM

Quote:
Quote:

Relevance of this topic?

None.

To answer this topic is: always play according to how much you know of the terrain surrounding your main city.

Translation: I have absolutely no idea how to contribute to this discussion so I'll throw around some random general truths that work for everything. Maybe my superb use of English will make them think I know what I am saying.


My name is in pure French and, I do dialog in Canadian Francophone dialect when I am not writing posts on this very Forum. So, I guess that I am not so bad literally in English, right? Well, I certainly think so of myself.

Any good player will not divulge his/her strategies and tactics onto a public Forum. I only pointed out the whole way of questioning one-self at how to start the game-play of any map onto HoMM. Mostly as a start-up guide-like post.

Obviously, you have absolutely no clue at what you get to read and what to respond to others' posts.

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LucJPatenaude
LucJPatenaude


Disgraceful
Known Hero
posted August 27, 2007 07:47 PM

Quote:
Yeah I remember the first month utopia tips back then Maybe you could try to test how different it is with Dougal, a random hero and Vittorio. My money would be on Dougal for an easier win, at least where those bulky creeps are concerned but I wonder how faster he could take a utopia with minimal risk.


what is your imperial decision to execute on day 1/week 1/month 1 of the chosen map of game to play/wage war? Simple, use the absolutely skill-less Hero to the best of my possible and existing knowledge.

Where, Dougal can not possibly have those Secondary Skills upto Expert level, yet(Expert War Machines). You will need at least 30 days(1 month) to get such a high level of expertise.


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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted August 27, 2007 08:04 PM

Oh but I do. Your English is pretty good but it conveys nothing if you have nothing to share. And the whole share your wisdom with nobody is a weak excuse if I ever heard one. Start-up guide-like posts don't start on a specific faction strategy thread, much less after 8 pages and in the end containing nothing substancial on the faction's nature.
The one on the sylvan was theory crafting and that speaks volumes.

I don't attack you but give me a break we can all see some things.
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bloucester
bloucester


Famous Hero
MSN can go to hell
posted August 27, 2007 08:21 PM

i think most of u guys need to check the topic. it's NOT about grok, deleb or a single STUPID toh map, it's about playing haven. remember now? if you are so eager to discuss that map or inferno, or creeping comparisons, this is not the threat. and i think some of the moderators should have warned you by now. go create a "deleb is the best" discussion and stay there.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted August 27, 2007 08:26 PM

Quote:
Where, Dougal can not possibly have those Secondary Skills upto Expert level, yet(Expert War Machines). You will need at least 30 days(1 month) to get such a high level of expertise.


It's not about expertise or warmachines, the marksmen do the job for you. regardless it's possible to have expert warmachines within a few days if you are lucky - it's a rather common haven skill.

@bloucester
You are right of course but show me a single thread that has no offtopic replies. If something comes up you don't search for another thread, you ask and the discussion continues.
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phoenixreborn
phoenixreborn


Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
posted August 27, 2007 08:34 PM

Quote:
i think most of u guys need to check the topic. it's NOT about grok, deleb or a single STUPID toh map, it's about playing haven. remember now?


I beg your pardon? For your information Heritage of Deleb is an excellent map and if you haven't played it I recommend it.

And I think the creeping speed of other factions is very relevant to a discussion of Haven tactics and stragies.  It provides a benchmark against which to measure what you need to have accomplished by a certain time in game.

Or did you think the thread was only about playing against the dumb a.i.? Fighting on multiplayer maps is important too.  Getting your war machines up quickly is a pretty viable strategy with haven.

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