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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Heroes 5 Strategy: Playing Necropolis Faction
Thread: Heroes 5 Strategy: Playing Necropolis Faction This thread is 13 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 · «PREV / NEXT»
rottenvenetic
rottenvenetic


Known Hero
Derusticated
posted September 09, 2009 12:22 AM

Well since you need Leadership and Herald of Death too it's a pretty rare sight.

Oh, and what's that in your second sentence? No, skelly archers and liches don't have any hero that specializes in them as far as I know. What else did you mean?

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scythesong
scythesong


Adventuring Hero
posted September 23, 2009 11:12 PM
Edited by scythesong at 23:14, 23 Sep 2009.

I meant starting as a hero that specializes in ranged attackers for your faction (say, Ossir for Sylvan), and then "main-ing" a different hero from the tavern instead. Sometimes the tavern starts with one Sylvan hero and a Necromancer. Naadir seems to pop out often enough for me.
The morale penalties can be crippling, but you really can't find a better setup than a necromancer with hunters early game. The tactic is especially useful if you play at higher difficulties, since Sylvan dwellings have steep resource requirements.

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Cleave
Cleave


Promising
Famous Hero
Raging Blood
posted September 24, 2009 12:50 PM

Quote:
I meant starting as a hero that specializes in ranged attackers for your faction (say, Ossir for Sylvan), and then "main-ing" a different hero from the tavern instead. Sometimes the tavern starts with one Sylvan hero and a Necromancer. Naadir seems to pop out often enough for me.
The morale penalties can be crippling, but you really can't find a better setup than a necromancer with hunters early game. The tactic is especially useful if you play at higher difficulties, since Sylvan dwellings have steep resource requirements.


That is quite funny actually. Are you suggesting starting Sylvan in order to pick Ossir and then taking a Necromancer as your main?

I like weird strategies but that one is a really bad idea...

You don't always get a Necromancer in your tavern and having one without a Necropolis is not of much use. Not to mention the fact that a few Hunters are useless if they don't get to shoot because of low morale.

Besides if you really want to play a Necromancer why don't you pick the Necropolis? Just for a few Hunters? Nah!
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rottenvenetic
rottenvenetic


Known Hero
Derusticated
posted September 24, 2009 02:19 PM
Edited by rottenvenetic at 14:25, 24 Sep 2009.

Another luck-based way is picking Necropolis and hoping your tavern's foreign hero is someone like Ossir or Haggash, a ranged creature specialist. So you hire this guy, give his ranged units to a necromancer, give him a skeleton and dismiss him (or keep as a resource gathering secondary).

It's a waste of money IMO. If you want, just hire another necro in week 2 for the extra skellies and zombies (or if you happen to land a necromancer in the foreign hero spot too).

As a necromancer you have enough ranged options for map clearing:

1. With your high spellpower you can use destructive magic, you're bound to have at least 1 or 2 of them. Hell, even take destructive and rush if you want

2. Skeleton Archers. With battle frenzy.

3. The Decay spell, or Mass Decay with Master of Pain. Might not be immediately available and can be a bit of a gamble, but it should come up after 2-3 fights and 2-3 chests where you actually take the EXP instead of the money (when that is an option).

4. Kasper + Plague Tent.

Edit: I would also like to add that, unlike Heroes 3, in Heroes 5 (Rot) Zombies are made of 100% awesome.

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Berny-Mac
Berny-Mac


Promising
Legendary Hero
Lord Vader
posted September 24, 2009 08:49 PM

except they is sssssssssllllllllllllllllooooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
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pei
pei


Famous Hero
Fresh Air.
posted September 24, 2009 09:29 PM

Can anyone experienced enough resume the info in this thread?Its way too much and its harder cause there are mixed expansions (or versions of the game) recommendations. This is my old time HOMM favourite town but cannot seem to tame these Necro-guys and im really noob in H5 so if someone can detail a more organized guide it would mean a lot to me.
BTW i dont think its rare that i seem now attracted to H5 when i hear H6 si coming out, im always one of the old guys

Thanks in advance.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted September 24, 2009 09:59 PM
Edited by Elvin at 21:59, 24 Sep 2009.

http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=26560
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pei
pei


Famous Hero
Fresh Air.
posted September 25, 2009 03:15 AM

Quote:
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=26560


Thanks! BTW im reading it...and i like it

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scythesong
scythesong


Adventuring Hero
posted September 25, 2009 03:35 AM
Edited by scythesong at 04:09, 25 Sep 2009.

Quote:
That is quite funny actually. Are you suggesting starting Sylvan in order to pick Ossir and then taking a Necromancer as your main?

That's it yep.

Quote:
I like weird strategies but that one is a really bad idea...

Technically it's not an "idea" since me and my friends use the strategy a lot (we used to do the same in heroes 3). It's not always that you get to start off the with lots of resources and lots of mines with lvl 1 defenders around.
In the case of the Sylvan town, the steep resource requirements of the hunter lodge (wood) and the druid/unicorn dwellings (crystal) means you need to get creative or you will be stuck using lvl 1-2 units and will likely be defeated when the computer/your friends come hunting for you at week 2-3.

Quote:
You don't always get a Necromancer in your tavern and having one without a Necropolis is not of much use. Not to mention the fact that a few Hunters are useless if they don't get to shoot because of low morale.

Nope, having a single necromancer hero (even without the town) with basic necromancy already gives 250 + Hero_Bonus + building_bonus(zero) dark energy. That's a lot... and will help you in maintaining a modest amount of skeletons for conquering low-mid levels mines.
Ossir starts with around 10-14 hunters I think. That's a lot early on.
Low morale is a worthwhile risk to take since in any other case enemy units will just reach your hunters/ranged units in around 3 turns anyway. Most times that won't be enough for the ranged units to do enough damage, and you'll probably end up losing more and more of them. This can be dangerous practice at higher difficulties since gold is scarce and you will not be able to replenish your units fast enough.
Skeletons help act as fodder and are dangerous enough not to be ignored. Necromancers can keep their numbers up too.

Quote:
Besides if you really want to play a Necromancer why don't you pick the Necropolis? Just for a few Hunters? Nah!

Because my point is that Necros can be useful heroes for other towns. It should already be obvious that they are ideal enough for the Necropolis faction .

Quote:
1. With your high spellpower you can use destructive magic, you're bound to have at least 1 or 2 of them. Hell, even take destructive and rush if you want

2. Skeleton Archers. With battle frenzy.

Not gonna happen unless you start off with the right hero. You will gain 2 or so levels fighting neutrals

3. The Decay spell, or Mass Decay with Master of Pain. Might not be immediately available and can be a bit of a gamble, but it should come up after 2-3 fights and 2-3 chests where you actually take the EXP instead of the money (when that is an option).


All of these is assuming you start with goodly resources or lots of nearby, weakly guarded mines, obelisks, chests. At higher difficulties, you won't get to do this until a lot later.
In fact you'll probably be stuck with a level 1-5 hero for the first few weeks.
Most cases you will start with barely enough (sometimes zero) of the rare resources, and around 10 or so wood and ore (just enough for two or so buidings).
For necro in this case first priority would be finding the nearest quarry asap before proceeding to other resources. If the quarry just happens to be well guarded, your development probably will be delayed and you'll need to play defensively for a few weeks.
Once you've sorted out those first few weeks and finally have a solid army, then you get to go around exploring and deciding whether to do this or take that or etc.
Agree, Naspar's a good hero.

BTW, I understand that me and my friends play the game differently  but it's only because we enjoy games with lots of low-mid level struggles more than the ones with large scale, high level end-game battles, which is why we don't play duels much (we enjoy watching them tho). Obviously this strategy wouldn't work as well when low-mid level gameplay is straightforward and the end-game alone is what counts.

edit: exact dark energy value added from reference

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rottenvenetic
rottenvenetic


Known Hero
Derusticated
posted September 25, 2009 12:38 PM bonus applied by Elvin on 26 Sep 2009.
Edited by rottenvenetic at 12:44, 25 Sep 2009.

Your skirmishing style is interesting, but the Heroes engine just doesn't reward it. If you can harass your opponent out of his resources, chances are you can take his town(s) as well, except maybe if he's Fortress in which case you may sometimes need to tie him down and build up, but likely not in the first month.

The problem is that if you start splitting your important units in small groups, and your enemy keeps a unified army that is too large to take on by your scattered forces, he has open road to your town before you can get to his (there's also TP, although it's thankfully not the silver bullet it once was). In real life, a large monolithic army can be endlessly harassed and tortured by sometimes even tiny forces, but Heroes does not allow for this. Scout suicides generally don't do that much to a well-grown main army, especially since they cost at least 2500 apiece.

There's such a thing as scout wars, naturally, but that seems to be more of a heroes 3 feature.

Now, in Heroes 3, again, necromancers with other factions were a good strategy since Necro had 2.5 useless tiers (2,3,questionable 7) and only raised skeletons (undead king set notwithstanding) which gave you six slots to work with. The skellies were also raised in enormous quantities. You could spare your weakest stack for them without a problem, or even hoard your level 7's in town as reserves.

In 5, Necromancy has become more of a tool to gain a numerical edge for your most important stacks, and these most important stacks must be necropolis units. You will not have enough of them through necromancy alone, except maybe skeletons (whichever upgrade you pick, basic ones are weak) if you are lucky to find low-level quickies in their high hundreds or thousands on the map.

Further: A necromancer get luck rarely, if at all, and Sylvan units are groomed for luck, and Avenger will be missed; he can't construct the mini-artifacts which Academy units need (a wizard secondary helps, but miniarties need a lot of knowledge to be useful - the kind of "a lot" you only have on a main hero); for Stronghold he will have a very weak and fragile army without the benefit of Rage; Inferno's Jezebeth only nets you one succubus; Fortress also nets just one priest, or spear-guys which are their weakest unit.

It should actually work with Haven (and Dougal) though, since you can train Peasants into Archers with your secondary, and gold is the only problem. Few levels are needed for Expert Trainer if gold is a problem. If you want to go for a full-on ranged strategy, you also have the longskirts at level 5 (can be trained from level 3 for a steep cost). They know light magic too

As for Dungeon (Vayshan), I have no comment to make, I'm lame with the Darkies and the Darkies are lame with me.




Edit: I like to take my time and drag the game into high levels and big armies, but unless there is some steep requirement for the level 7 dwelling and it's not that important (Necro being the perfect example), OR the map doesn't shaft me for a mine I need OR I'm Fortress, I will have capitol, castle, upgraded everything, all units recruited and a main hero in the mid to late teen levels, by the end of week 3. I usually start with 20K gold, 15 wood/ore and 10 everything else, and am also a rather bad Heroes V player, as Elvin can testify

But generally, Capitol, Castle and upgraded 1-6 is a must. Again, not for Fortress as I might be screwed over in the crystal department and that's the end.

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scythesong
scythesong


Adventuring Hero
posted September 25, 2009 09:05 PM

I'm not sure what you mean.
Getting the necro was more of a survival move for early game. It just so happens that doing so will get you a necro as a main. This is an example of how a necro leading non-necropolis troops can be possible and feasible.

You can keep visiting +morale buildings to help you deal with the morale penalty. Once you've properly upgraded your town's dwellings necromancy will indeed start to lose its edge. Hopefully Leadership pops out before that time. But you'll always have Banshee Howl, and some necros have really useful specialties.




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rottenvenetic
rottenvenetic


Known Hero
Derusticated
posted September 26, 2009 12:16 AM
Edited by rottenvenetic at 00:25, 26 Sep 2009.

All racial unique skills are too good to give up, and you can only use two, other than Necromancy, in conjunction to a Necromancer, to some extent:

Training can be fully used by a secondary Knight, but you lose the better retaliations perk.

Artificer can be used by a secondary Wizard, but its knowledge will be too low to produce successful mini-arties (maybe not if you get Mentoring and Enlightenment on the wizard) and any non-Academy units you have will not be able to use mini-artifacts.

Morale is not the issue here. You can survive the -1 Morale and likely lack of Leadership. So never mind Leadership. Mind Luck, Light Magic and War Machines instead, necromancers don't tend to get them.

Naadir with Sylvan is lame with his dark-summoning combo and only 3 spells available for them combined, in your mage guild.

To make any use at all of him you need to have all 3 of these spells be useful ones. Even if you get slow, decay and phantom forces it will still feel weak when you remember puppetmaster, vampirism etc. And you can get raise dead, which will shaft you since Naadir starts with it.

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scythesong
scythesong


Adventuring Hero
posted September 26, 2009 01:37 AM
Edited by scythesong at 01:52, 26 Sep 2009.

Quote:
All racial unique skills are too good to give up, and you can only use two, other than Necromancy, in conjunction to a Necromancer, to some extent:

Training can be fully used by a secondary Knight, but you lose the better retaliations perk.

Artificer can be used by a secondary Wizard, but its knowledge will be too low to produce successful mini-arties (maybe not if you get Mentoring and Enlightenment on the wizard) and any non-Academy units you have will not be able to use mini-artifacts.

This is actually not a problem.
The general idea here is that in some situations you will need to draw on more creative tactics to deal with certain obstacles.
It is not a problem because in practice you can actually live without some of the racial-unique skills (or have them on some other hero). At least Necromancy and some of its perks can be useful for some other towns. Not many unique skills are like this. Some Necromancy heroes also have very useful specialties (Zoltan, Deidre) that can be useful anywhere.

Quote:
Morale is not the issue here. You can survive the -1 Morale and likely lack of Leadership. So never mind Leadership. Mind Luck, Light Magic and War Machines instead, necromancers don't tend to get them.

The morale penalty is actually higher than that (-3 I think). Mind Luck, Light Magic and War Machines are useless when you are already hard pressed to to build your town dwellings properly, much less level your hero enough properly to get them.
They are powerful yes, you just don't have yet. (and you will be defeated long before you get them if you don't focus on the "now" first)

Quote:
Naadir with Sylvan is lame with his dark-summoning combo and only 3 spells available for them combined, in your mage guild.
To make any use at all of him you need to have all 3 of these spells be useful ones. Even if you get slow, decay and phantom forces it will still feel weak when you remember puppetmaster, vampirism etc. And you can get raise dead, which will shaft you since Naadir starts with it.

The fact is that a Necromancer is a army-creating, army-maintaining hero that doesn't need anything much except good strategy to creep properly, making it a very good starting hero. One can discuss the problem of not being able to get additional Dark Magic spells after you survive the first two or three weeks. (in any case, your human opponents are probably still struggling as much as you and the PC's AI leaves much to be desired)

Note that I mentioned that this strategy works best in higher difficulties.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted September 26, 2009 02:20 PM

Sorry guys, with my exams I was not able to follow the thread lately I must say I like rottenvenetic's arguing style and while scythesong's suggestions don't come with a lot of merit it's still interesting to hear unconventional strategies.

Why I don't believe Naadir would work with sylvan. Ossir can still level up faster, I have killed lots of minotaur guards with him the very first day. Also you can kill hordes of squires/warmongers with just sprites so creeping is not much of an issue unless you get ranged units. Even then an archer stack and 6 single sprites charged forward - each 20% chance to get morale and block enemy shooters before they act - works nicely. Naadir can at best.. what? Cast a few eldritch arrows? Fists of wrath? Can be handy from time to time but nothing really important, can't even pick destructive because you'd still have the other 2 magic types slowing your build. Even motn cannot regenerate as much mana as you lose.

Instead I'd rather occasionally borrow Ossir's army(following him ofc) to raise a few skeleton warriors for ranged protection or ghosts for cheap blockers. They'd go nicely with a boosted hunter stack.
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Berny-Mac
Berny-Mac


Promising
Legendary Hero
Lord Vader
posted September 26, 2009 06:52 PM

(applause)
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rottenvenetic
rottenvenetic


Known Hero
Derusticated
posted September 26, 2009 07:33 PM
Edited by rottenvenetic at 13:01, 27 Sep 2009.

Oh yes, about the all upgrades by end of week 3, sorry.

I meant unupgraded of course, maybe Elvin and some of the guys here can pull the full upgrade by that time in some cases, but not me (worst case scenario, with town at level 1 and you're fortress, you have to build 23 structures to get there, obviously not possible in 21 days). Also, late teen level is only possible on a rich map, or, agian, with more efficient gameplay than I will ever care to use but on Rise to Power I can get a really big main hero fast, due to easy access to level 2 and 3 dwellings.

Now explain why you would ever throw away any racial special. They're all good and you will not get any hero that hasn't got one.

Also, for a foreign secondary, try Kythra if you get her. She pays for herself in 10-12 weeks days, but her 9-12 minos are strong enough to tank for her while she clears up Lots of any level 1 unit, except maybe high Lots of gremlin saboteurs.

Now about light magic, attack and luck. These are the three skills that you get for improving your units' attack power (Light is a mix of offense and defense but you can concentrate on either with perks and choice of spells to cast).

Having your units hit hard is very difficult to replace, especially as Sylvan, Inferno or Stronghold. Against a human player, it is actually impossible to compensate wimpy units no matter what faction you're playing and what spells you have, even if you've got more mana than God.

For sylvan especially, you need Luck and Avenger like air, or at least one of them. The whole trick with Sylvan is to hit first and hit hard. You will not get away with base damage, you need those early lucky shots and the Avenger perk on 3 important enemy units or you'll leave too many alive and your glass cannons are gonna get it, leaving your tanks and dragons, too few and too unlucky to turn the tide. The Ranger isn't how it is just for roleplay purposes, it is tuned to make the best of the Sylvan army.

The necromancer is another story entirely. You get a lot of spellpower, summoning, dark, sorcery, defense, enlightenment -with variations, and Necromancy.

So you need a turtling lineup, and the Undead are perfect at that. The only unit that's any good at turtling, in the whole Sylvan lineup, is the Treant, whereas all seven undead tiers are good at it (well, dragons are a tier 6.5 unit, not 7, but you don't need big guns beyond your Dark and/or Summoning anyway).

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted September 26, 2009 07:42 PM

Quote:
Also, for a foreign secondary, try Kythra if you get her. She pays for herself in 10-12 weeks

LMAO To think that week 6 games are slightly late.

There is pretty good reason to dump the racial if the earlygame advantage you gain is sufficient. I had written a thread about similar cases.
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rottenvenetic
rottenvenetic


Known Hero
Derusticated
posted September 26, 2009 08:02 PM

Oh dammit I meant days

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scythesong
scythesong


Adventuring Hero
posted September 27, 2009 06:04 AM
Edited by scythesong at 06:41, 27 Sep 2009.

Quote:
Why I don't believe Naadir would work with sylvan. Ossir can still level up faster, I have killed lots of minotaur guards with him the very first day..

How many exactly? I think it should be doable enough if luck's on your side though.

Quote:
Also you can kill hordes of squires/warmongers with just sprites so creeping is not much of an issue unless you get ranged units. Even then an archer stack and 6 single sprites charged forward - each 20% chance to get morale and block enemy shooters before they act - works nicely

I really don't know how you intend to do that without losing a few sprites, and doing that might not be a good idea. Depends on the gains I guess.

Quote:
Naadir can at best.. what? Cast a few eldritch arrows? Fists of wrath?

If that was the reason I picked a Necro I should indeed be hitting my head on a wall somewhere.

Quote:

Can be handy from time to time but nothing really important, can't even pick destructive because you'd still have the other 2 magic types slowing your build. Even motn cannot regenerate as much mana as you lose.

Naadir can create (drawing upon a 250-dark energy pool) and maintain (using Raise Dead) a modest army of skeletons that can act as perfect fodder for your hunters at *zero* cost. At Heroic difficulty you'll only be starting with 10 wood/ore, 5 rare resources, only village hall+tavern built and 10k gold. You'll be hard pressed building anything better than a fort and hunter's lodge at week 1.
The clock will be ticking, the computer sometimes comes as early as week 2. So if you're in a map like Heritage where gold and resources are all being jealously guarded, you need to start getting creative with your tactics (ie, resort to desperate measures).

Quote:
Instead I'd rather occasionally borrow Ossir's army(following him ofc) to raise a few skeleton warriors for ranged protection or ghosts for cheap blockers. They'd go nicely with a boosted hunter stack.

Amen, that's the idea. At some point you could probably still switch to Ossir if you really wanted a hero with avenger instead, or if you didn't like how your necro turned out.

Quote:
Now explain why you would ever throw away any racial special. They're all good and you will not get any hero that hasn't got one.

There is pretty good reason to dump the racial if the earlygame advantage you gain is sufficient. I had written a thread about similar cases.


Yep.

Quote:
For sylvan especially, you need Luck and Avenger like air...

That's exaggeration.

Quote:
...or at least one of them

Yep.

And for the record, Elvin -agrees- with me.
(Probably not with having a Necro as a long term main, but on its possible usefulness for early game... to some extent )
I can live with that, it's not like many people play Hard or Heroic hot-seat scenarios anyway. If you want proof you should really test it out yourself - hunter-skelly combo is golden early on, with 1-stack sprites for misc purposes.

And I never said you should always be main-ing a Necro instead of a ranger. I've always specified that you might want consider it (or you really might end up doing it) *only* if you're playing on "impossible" or heroic difficulty, or hard maps. That was the whole point of all my posts, besides Empathy becoming a useful skill for the Necromancer in such a case.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted September 27, 2009 12:34 PM

I didn't say I agree, I only said to keep Naadir for a couple of battles Anyway towns without fort, tavern and tier 1 prebuilt suck for multi, they unnecessarily slow the game down.
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