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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Heroes 5 Strategy: Playing Necropolis Faction
Thread: Heroes 5 Strategy: Playing Necropolis Faction This thread is 13 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 · «PREV / NEXT»
GreatSopp
GreatSopp

Tavern Dweller
posted August 26, 2009 01:12 PM

Quote:
Or even pick another class, for instance academy can create mini arties for its units and then mentor a knight to lead them. That is a crazy combination if you add minies to the knight's stats.


Love this idea, really funny... kinda requires a long game thou (large armies), miniartifact on a might-orientent class must be ... NICE.

Alternatively mentoring barbs, think of a lvl 25 Haggash with Centaurs with a 30% + init bonus (and 2 more effects) from minis, good moral and battle elation would suit that kinda well. Now if you add ring of speed and the -20% init to enemy artifact on top of that, you be kinda the king of initiave, sounds imba.

Btw, does 2 ring of speed stack?

Love your comments, thx, if you could comment the Actificer bug too that would be even better, that one really annoys me
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted August 26, 2009 01:17 PM

Actually the minies only work for academy army. Relics don't stack but a ring of celerity would stack since it's major. As for the artificer bug just disable the pendant of mastery on the map or forbid your friends from using it, case closed.
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GreatSopp
GreatSopp

Tavern Dweller
posted August 26, 2009 01:47 PM
Edited by GreatSopp at 13:48, 26 Aug 2009.

Sure, but, btw, you not need pendant of master to make unlimited rescourses with arficier. It can be done as soon as you get the building. Just tested it, it doesnt work in single... as I said discovered it by dobbelclicking online by mistake... I think its because of the 0,5-1 second delay from you click till u get the miniartifact...

Just test it in a "Training" game, you will only need to build articier to test it (so u can do it on turn 1-3).

And yes, ofc its banned/forbidden...
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted August 28, 2009 12:18 PM

Didn't they fixed the resource bug with Artificer in 3.1?
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GreatSopp
GreatSopp

Tavern Dweller
posted August 28, 2009 07:02 PM
Edited by GreatSopp at 19:02, 28 Aug 2009.

Quote:
Didn't they fixed the resource bug with Artificer in 3.1?


Nope, cuz I have only played on 3.1. I thought more people would react, but I guess its just me...
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scythesong
scythesong


Adventuring Hero
posted September 01, 2009 05:49 PM

Just wanna put this in. Empathy is actually a nice perk for a Necromancer hero, especially when you're using one while playing some other faction besides Necropolis (Leadership helps with morale issues too). It's a rather situational perk and you probably won't ever have to use a Necromancer as an alternative hero for any other faction, but should the situation present itself then why not?
The starting skills and special abilities of some Necro heroes (like Zoltan or Deidre) are also powerful enough to be worth it.

In the situation I was "forced" to test this on I was playing Academy, and Deidre happened to show up in the second week (it was either her or Nur, and Nur didn't seem as useful as a  town defender). My town was constantly under siege from other players so she was gaining levels almost as fast as my main (Jhora). What happened was that since Deidre's skills seemed more useful at the time I decided to main her instead against a friend who was using Infero. Jhora stayed home making artifacts for my units. I think that decision was the one that saved me in the end.

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rottenvenetic
rottenvenetic


Known Hero
Derusticated
posted September 02, 2009 07:00 PM
Edited by rottenvenetic at 19:04, 02 Sep 2009.

About leadership on Necromancers, remind me not to take it (for me, herald of death - estates - diplomacy seems to make the most sense unless like in the post above you're using the necro to lead a powerful other-faction army) when I have a lot of (esp. necro) dwellings in my area.

A lot of 2-cyclops stacks run away on me, refusing to become bone dragons and do something instead of just sitting there in the middle of the field. I assume that if I'd be swimming in cash I could use money to persuade those faithless cowards to abandon their weak, inferior flesh.

About estates: It's only 1750 gold a week but it's certainly better than empathy which will never trigger and recruiting, which is useless on a hero who can raise far more than 3 skellies, 2 zombies and a ghost every week without even needing to visit town.

It also has some synergy with diplomacy.

Sorcery is probably better

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 02, 2009 07:26 PM

Agree with last poster. I did have some use of Herald Of Death + Diplomacy once when I had no less than two weeks of Green Dragon in the same month, so I think I got about a dozen free Bone Dragons on that account, but overall ... meh.
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Cleave
Cleave


Promising
Famous Hero
Raging Blood
posted September 02, 2009 08:53 PM

The only point in taking Leadership for a Necromancer would be to abuse Haunted Mines (its usefulness depends on the number of mines on the map though). It can be tempting to go for haunted mines but the actual chances to have that skill are pretty low with TotE... Too bad.
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rottenvenetic
rottenvenetic


Known Hero
Derusticated
posted September 02, 2009 10:20 PM

Cool! I can still get it on my Orson, i also have basic summoning and master of life on him

Can I haunt mines that i already have?

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted September 02, 2009 10:28 PM

Afraid not.
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Cleave
Cleave


Promising
Famous Hero
Raging Blood
posted September 02, 2009 10:51 PM

Haunted mines only work on mines you take or mines that were taken and that you're taking back. Gotta love when an enemy hero steals one your mines.

I think that making it so difficult to get is a good move, in Heroes before TotE it was too easy to get hundreds of ghosts it wasn't even funny.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 03, 2009 09:25 AM

Quote:
Haunted mines only work on mines you take or mines that were taken and that you're taking back. Gotta love when an enemy hero steals one your mines.

I think that making it so difficult to get is a good move, in Heroes before TotE it was too easy to get hundreds of ghosts it wasn't even funny.


No, that's the typical Nival way of thinking. Oops, there's something here that's über powerful, so let's make it virtually impossible to achieve.

Rather, they should have balanced it to make it less powerful, i.e. offer less ghosts, or even better, offer more ghosts but make it so that you can't take them with you. Obviously, the point in having a haunted mine is that there will be ghosts IN the mine, i.e. make it difficult for enemies to catch them.
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Cleave
Cleave


Promising
Famous Hero
Raging Blood
posted September 03, 2009 12:14 PM

That would work against low level heroes with no armies, main heroes wouldn't have a problem facing hundreds of ghosts for extra XP.

But I think you're right about the fact that they don't make it more balanced but harder to get (the same logic seems to apply for Rangers with Imbue Ballista).

Still there is something to be said about going for Leadership with a Necro as it seems to be a poor choice most of the time -except for Haunted Mines... I'm not sure that Herald of Death would justify spending at least two level ups.

Come to think of it taking the ghosts from the mines is not mentioned anywhere and it could be considered as an abuse. At least now if you can pull it off you deserve them (not to mention that since you have crippled your Necro's build with Leadership you really badly need the reinforcement).
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Kispagat
Kispagat


Famous Hero
posted September 03, 2009 01:31 PM

From my practical multiplayer view: haunted mine is a total waste skill, fog veil and others are much better.I think situation would be the same if we would cancel herald of death as a prequisite.

If your game did not finish soon, you are "dead". So no time for effective haunting.

I think the probability how I face a haunted mine perk is 0%.

Leadership is much more frequent, around 1%. There is two case I can imagine to consider it:

A. Necro hero leads another faction (like dungeon Zilo!!!!!), when diplomacy+empathy+herald might be a good combo

B. There are some maps, where you know that ur main hero will reach around 22-25 levels, and u can get 1-2 leadership from witch huts. The reason to take that skill to protect your phoenix from your own morale decreasing effects.  


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rottenvenetic
rottenvenetic


Known Hero
Derusticated
posted September 03, 2009 05:30 PM
Edited by rottenvenetic at 17:39, 03 Sep 2009.

In the end I had haunted mines offered to me about 3 times but didn't take it.

I gave lead. a shot as necro for novelty value and because I thought herald of death and diplo would allow me to recruit swarms of undead. I was horribly wrong

So we have 5 wasted levels - or 6 if estates is counted as waste too.

Luckily I have the amnesia dudes so I will ditch it for sorcery (or something; the hero is too big for enlightenment now tho).

Also luckily the advanced ai mod for 3.1 seems to have just rolled over and died. I took 4 towns from it already and was never even remotely challenged by anything. The toughest battle I had in the game was earlier, vs. a pack of magma ele's. I lost 27 vampire princes somehow, I am still mystified as to how I managed it, still got a hefty number now.

Also, here was what a bit of luck with a huge army won me, more than all the leadership and its 3 perks together did in a month:



Took their number up to 68. This was just before I grabbed 2 pathetically defended fortresses.

Also, sorrow (I believe from ghost dragons in this case) and death's cloak together are awesome (nathir is my secondary, I have only dragon stuff - 5 pieces - and a ring of vitality on orson, my 1st):




Sorry if the pics are too big, but your resolutions are probably better than mine and the whole things will fit in well.

In conclusion, there is absolutely no hidden extraordinary value to leadership for necro.



Edit: Also visible is my upgraded wight strategy: splitting them in 2 groups, a majority of banshees and a minority of wraiths. Ideally the wight group would be upgraded as well, as they eventually were.

I will only do this if I don't need to put wraiths, liches and dragons in the same army.

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Cleave
Cleave


Promising
Famous Hero
Raging Blood
posted September 03, 2009 09:04 PM

Quote:
Also luckily the advanced ai mod for 3.1 seems to have just rolled over and died.


I don't know why but sometimes the AI is wimpy whereas it can be a real pain in other games.

Still kudos for experimenting with Leadership. It tends to prove that Necromancers don't have to be charismatic.
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rottenvenetic
rottenvenetic


Known Hero
Derusticated
posted September 04, 2009 01:07 PM
Edited by rottenvenetic at 13:20, 04 Sep 2009.

I've been rethinking my attitude towards leadership after the last post.

Wall of text warning, and it's probably mostly me making an idiot of myself! A short summary in green is at the other end.

Well, later in the game some weird stuff is happening. After my previous post I played another hour during the night and everybody and their gargoyle (yes, gargs, which herald of death doesn't work on since they're stone) wanted to join Orson. (apparently the two memory mentors I'd found earlier are the only ones, and O. is on the opposite side of the map now).

Check this out, these dumb earth daughters agree not only to die, but to change their sex as well, just to be part of Orson's undead horde!



Later on over 100 Imperial Griffins agreed to become Vampire Princes (how is that done?) and I had to ditch a stack of 605 gargoyles I'd let tag along before the earth daughters, um, sons, to make room for them.

Now it appears from the manual that if your army is 20 times stronger, the neutrals will always join and flee if refused or flee immediately, except if they are scripted to always fight. I'm not actually playing a random map, it's the scenario with the Kreegans. But apart from certain guards (the green dragons keeping the power of dragons pieces) the stacks seem to be random.

For those unfamiliar with the map: there are 4 large overground regions each with 2 towns of your alignment, each being the playing ground of 1 player. Green and Yellow are always Necro and Fortress, Red (me) and Blue can pick. Orange is always Inferno and is always played by the computer. They have the underground all to themselves.

Since the army strength enters the equation only to check thresholds, anything added over 20 to 1 superiority is moot.

For a Wild stack, considering non-undead good creatures (opposite to necro's evil) of which due to Lord of the Undead I do not have in my army previously, the base chance to join is -5% so that, even with my *20+ strength, Diplomacy is required for even a pathetic 5% chance to join. Hence my extreme luck with the griffins, but the earth daughters were easier to sway since their demon blood and the lack of a 4th evil faction makes the orcs count for evil in these calculations (also their propensity to pillage and commit genocide and their shabby treatment of goblins ).

With the Dragons there was at least a 20% chance to join me if they were wild and a maximum of 35% if they were "friendly." If I had encountered any Zombies, Orson's chances to have them join him would have been 40-55%!

So, in the end, Diplomacy can be useful to help you seriously augment your force. In the very last turns of my game, where I entered a "virgin" area, my vampire numbers increased about fourfold from 131 to 500+. I also gained almost 400 Spectres and, for one night, 605 Gargoyles. All these for free.

As for the AI: It transpires that they didn't put up a fight because they had messed each other up. Blue (Academy), the first one I attacked, had moved on Yellow (Necro) and took one of his towns, so he is still in the game, and has been active in Green's(Fortress) area too. Now I've attacked Green and snatched his towns without any trouble, or finding any powerful hero, which suggests that all his armies were also in Yellow's territory. They were probably destroyed at the time of my conquest, as Green was defeated less than a week thereafter. I don't really know why they didn't come at me first, the mod is supposed to make AI's more aggressive towards the player than each other.

Now I will clear out Yellow (and blue) and head into the Underground to hopefully find a worthy challenger for my massive army in the Kreegans (Orange).


Final verdict from me: Picking Diplomacy can help significantly increase your army if you have a large base to build on, and for Necromancers, it is an interesting option since, combined with Herald of Death, you will not have so many problems with too many stacks. The only one I had to give up was the Gargoyles, on which HoD does not work. The Undead are thus uniquely powerful in their use of Diplomacy.

Still, this setup costs you the waste of 4 levels, as well as involving 2 perks to begin with, since the 3 levels in leadership and the 3rd leadership perk are useless to you. By comparison every other faction can make use of Leadership's morale effects and Diplomacy, if taken, costs only 1 level-up, and possibly an advanced perk they might want. Specifically, Divine Guidance for all classes except Empathy for Knights and Wizards which have Diplomacy as a needed perk for the advanced Leadership options,.

It is only any good in a very long game, and I believe not worth 6 times the investment other races put (they benefit from the Morale of Leadership and can use its advanced perks, often to the detriment of Diplomacy).

Also, getting Leadership on Necro is hard. I only have it because of a Witch Hut in my starting area gave it.




TL, DR: Necromancers can grow huge armies in very long games by combining Diplo, Necromancy and Herald o'Death. In anything less than an epic game it's not worth to try, and Leadership is unlikely anyway.

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Cleave
Cleave


Promising
Famous Hero
Raging Blood
posted September 05, 2009 02:30 PM

These are good points you make but unfortunately most of the time this will only help when you already have a huge army and are already winning the game. Still, for epic games that may work but at the end of the day you're still one skill short.

Would you rather have many free units late game or have another skill that can be helpful right away? Sorcery, Enlightenment, Attack, Luck or Defence are better than Leadership for a Necromancer.

Taking Leadership with a Necromancer is a bit of a gamble (no to mention that to get it is not a common occurence).

That being said one should never underestimate the power of Diplomacy. I even had the AI getting loads of units thanks to that skill (which is good since that makes for interesting fights).
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scythesong
scythesong


Adventuring Hero
posted September 06, 2009 06:44 AM

I've never taken Haunted Mines... to be honest I didn't think the game would actually allow you to take you take those ghosts (wasn't allowed in the previous Heroes games). Still I've also never seen the skill pop up that much, and almost all my Necros have Master of Life (then again I usually pick Master of Earthblood too).
Btw, I also forgot to mention that if you use the start-with-the-hero-that-specializes-in-ranged-units strategy, then you might be maining a Necro for another town sooner than you think.

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