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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Heroes 5 Strategy: Playing Academy Faction
Thread: Heroes 5 Strategy: Playing Academy Faction This thread is 36 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 20 30 ... 32 33 34 35 36 · «PREV / NEXT»
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Rejuvenation process
posted August 08, 2010 12:11 PM

Tsk tsk people still believe that destructive is the only answer dungeon has.
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adriancat
adriancat


Famous Hero
Protector Of The Peace
posted August 08, 2010 12:46 PM
Edited by adriancat at 12:47, 08 Aug 2010.

AGAIN,elvin has right....dungeon can take summoning.dungeon' summoning will be more powerful than wizards' one.still,academy isn't the best faction.in my opinion there's no best faction in the game,it is matter only by how you play.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Rejuvenation process
posted August 08, 2010 01:38 PM

I wasn't talking about summoning either, it's one of my least picked schools with dungeon. But good might skills plus one magic school can have noticeable results.
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zaio-baio
zaio-baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted August 09, 2010 11:43 PM

"good might skills + 1 magic school can have noticeable results"

i need an example
-> imo u need 1x logistics
             1x enlightenment
             1x sorcery
             1x any magic school
             1x ( one might pick)
             -> EPIC might build
only destr + summoning spells in the castle - > go go for dark go go for light ...  

P.S.
2% chance for defence, 2% chance for leadership, 2% chance for light, 2% chance for dark  

however, u have right about the might build - its possible, but only on fan made maps and u will still waste ur early creeping potential

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Vangelis21
Vangelis21


Supreme Hero
Manchild
posted August 10, 2010 07:19 AM

Quote:
Tsk tsk people still believe that destructive is the only answer dungeon has.


It is not the only one, it is the best one for Dungeon. Very limited situations when you should take something else than destructive
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Rejuvenation process
posted August 10, 2010 10:19 AM

I was talking about how unreliable a pure destructive build is in longer maps. But considering what you just said..

Noob
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Vangelis21
Vangelis21


Supreme Hero
Manchild
posted August 10, 2010 10:43 AM

I was writing a huge reply to at last prove you some things, mozilla crashed and i lost it!

SO in few words

Dungeon = destructive
Elvin = noob = stuck
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Heroes VI is here and Necropolis is serious trouble!

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adriancat
adriancat


Famous Hero
Protector Of The Peace
posted August 10, 2010 10:47 AM

still with all that,dungeon has a few heroes who starts with dark magic skill.but academy cand beat this with their light/other magic schools.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Rejuvenation process
posted August 10, 2010 10:48 AM

Even mozilla couldn't handle what it saw typed.

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Phthalocyanine
Phthalocyanine

Tavern Dweller
posted August 11, 2010 07:41 AM

You can't be pure at late stages of a long game.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Rejuvenation process
posted August 11, 2010 08:16 AM

Life corrupts
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Vangelis21
Vangelis21


Supreme Hero
Manchild
posted August 11, 2010 08:38 AM

ok, when you have dungeon, choose 2 magic schools and i will choose attack or defence or luck or enlightenment or leadership or sorcery etc

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Endelite
Endelite


Hired Hero
posted August 17, 2010 08:35 PM
Edited by Endelite at 20:47, 17 Aug 2010.

Quote:
(Vangelis21)
4) stormwind decreases the speed and initiative of all flying units of the opponent by 1.
Quote:
(Elvin)
4) You probably should yes. -20% initiative and -2 speed on angels and griffins is sweet.
I just wanted to prevent confusion by clarifying that yes, since TotE patch 3.1, it has been -20% initiative and -2 speed, not -10% and -1. This makes it a VERY good perk against Necropolis and Haven.

I find it very strange that Academy has an 8% chance to gain Luck at level up considering only 2% for Defence and Leadership. Attack is physical attack, which doesn't fit Academy's theme (but that doesn't stop Light+Might Academy from being playable), but Defence makes plenty of sense for them and yet they have both and 8% chance for Luck and War Machines, neither of which I think are very good for them.
Luck is obviously a simple, easy damage multiplier, but Warlock's Luck only applies to ...no Academy units. Does it apply to Magic Mirror? This is the only numerically random ability with a base chance that I can imagine it might apply to for Academy.
If you choose Magic Insight (which doesn't give you even basic skill in the extra 3rd level spells and thus is mostly useless), Warlock's luck is also out. You already have magic resistance, magic resistant miniature artefacts (although health is more useful for the first 4 units against most factions and on maps I play, you can't usually afford 3rd level arties on all units), so the value of the perks is mostly (I believe) not so useful for them as it may be for plenty of other factions.
Someone made a point about the perks of Enlightenment not being very good for Wizards and I thoroughly agree with that because Graduate, Wizard's Reward and Arcane Exaltation will increase the attributes by a much lower percentage than they would increase another type of hero's Spell Power and Knowledge by and Mentoring is possibly alright (better for Necropolis though due to the extra Dark Energy). Unfortunately, I also agree with the point someone else made regarding the extra Spell Power and Knowledge both being useful and I have to add that Academy should really be grateful for whatever naturall attack and defence (the latter especially) that it gets, unless you get about 8 attack, 1 defence and 10 spell power as I did one game. That was horrible, given I was Jhora with Enl+Sor+Lig+Sum+Des. Damned random calculations going besquerky!

Scholar is rarely useful due to the lower level heroes not being able to learn the spells you would need transferred by the hero staying near your home.
As for Arcane Intuition - I thought I heard that you couldn't learn spells from your own units. Clarification on this matter is required!

Defence is very good for durability and I would certainly choose Vitality, Evasion and Stand Your Ground, probably in that order, as we're hoping to get Endurance and Master of Abjuration, so defending with this means your +12 become +19.2, not to mention also increasing by 60% the amount your creature naturally has (and the hero+artefact bonuses).
15% protection from magic damage is not great as ideally your main hero has Magic Mirror and/or magic resistance trinkets and only destructive and the occasional summoning spells will be reduced by Protection (and could be resisted anyway).
Power of Endurance could be a good choice if you are getting Master of Wrath, Master of Blessings and Storm Wind, or if you have Master of Abjuration and a spare defence ability slot late into the game without Endurance, although you shouldn't be an Abjurer if you do not have Deflect Missile either!

Attack is...a hard choice. Potentially VERY good for them as.
While golems have medium-high damage for level 3 creatures in numbers of ONE, they don't have the highest growth, but it is still quite nice for them, especially to bump up the minimum damage even further.
I checked the first two or three pages and the last three or four before this and in those pages, despite Attack, Archery and Battle Frenzy being mentioned, no one seems to have mentioned how AMAZINGLY GOOD it is for gargoyles. The minimum damage doubles and the maximum damage increases by 50%. Huge, now they can actually be durable AND deal proper damage, especially if the have more initiative with trinkets. I'm going to refer to them as trinkets from now on, by the way, as I don't want to always say "mini" instead of "miniature", don't want to always write artefacts to describe both mini ones and normal hero ones and finally, "arties" implies the U.S. American spelling "artifact", while true, original, home-grown organic English spells it artefact, which I speak and write.

Anyway, back to attack, battle frenzy is obviously great for gremlins also (quick question: what do people prefer out of the gremlin upgrades? I prefer saboteurs until very late game with many golems and I suspect most others feel the same) and even helps mages with their reliable but relatively low damage for their 'tier'.

[Partially necromantic aside]
Just a couple of notes that also apply to Necropolis:
Archery - very good if you are getting attack, probably Battle Frenzy+Archery and Mass Haste, or else tactics just in case it comes in handy (perhaps with rakshasa, vampires and wraith when clearing mid-game territory?). Mass Haste only applies to Academy if you have Master of Abjuration and a spare defence ability slot late into the game without Endurance, or if you are getting Master of Abjuration, Master of Blessings and either Refined Mana, Suppress Light (vs Haven, probably), Eternal Light or Fire Resistance. Personally, Suppress Light against Haven on a small or tiny map is the only circumstance under which you might perhaps be avoiding Master of Wrath without being daft or out of your mind and even then, it is likely not worth it. I suppose it could mean that Haven units cannot have Haste or Righteous Might for long in battle (3 turns at best) while you use Endurance, Regeneration, Deflect Missile and single-target RM and Haste on your own units, but I still wouldn't bother, because even if that were a good move, Storm Wind is more useful against Haven than against the majority of other teams (but vs Necropolis is the most wonderful).
Try Storm Wind+Fog Veil+Evasion+Stand Your Ground+Mass Expert Endurance with Master of Blessings or Eternal Light against them.
Add regeneration and potentially resurrection for good measure.

Cold Iron (or "Cold Steel") would be a good choice if you like Destructive with Necropolis and either do not want Mass Haste (for whatever bizarre reason) or, more understandably, only use Skeleton Warriors, seeing as in this case Archery will only benefit the Lich stack, which only deal half damage beyond 5 tiles anyway, despite shooting a FREAKIN' DEATH RAY LASER BEAM OF FATAL PAINFUL DEATHLY DEATH (sadly, giving them No Range Penalty makes them overpowered). Funny how crossbow bolts apparently have no range penalty when lasers do...does that mean that Briton Longbowmen would beat Archliches in a fight?
[/partially necromantic aside]

For Academy though, it's likely you'll be a Master of all Light or else have MoWrath, Storm Wind and be a master of one of the others (Abjuration vs might, Blessings vs Necro, goodness knows vs might/dark Inferno) and as such will only want to get this in the late-game if you sadly do not already have Haste.

Logistics: Not so useful on small maps (nor tiny) as on normal/large/extra large/huge/impossible, but even so, it should seriously be nerfed to either 7/15/22 or 6/12/18 (or maybe 8/16/24). Even on small maps, which I prefer for 1v1, +30% can mean quite a bit. I like the idea of not getting it as academy and being able to fell like one doesn't have to get Logistics or Enlightenment as every race in every situation, but for the most part they are safe, useful choices. Get Pathfinding so that you can get March of the Golems and Warpath or perhaps Teleport Assault for use with Steel Golems and Expert Light Magic, or maybe even Scouting, seeing as that's quite a bit better than it was in HOMM III.

I play on small because it is much more likely to be exciting or frightening than normal maps which are twice the size and you will also get to play more games this way. Additionally, this game is more likely to be found to seem imbalanced the longer a game goes on: Destructive vs huge amounts of units is a joke, as are summoned creatures, fire trap, arcane crystal....most of summoning actually.

I don't like War Machines for them, although with high knowledge, flaming ballista, double or triple-shot and archery, it would be decent, but I don't like it much in general and I think they have much better options for most enemies. Flaming 'Arrows' is good against factions with high defence, but on the other hand, the ballista will probably deal this same damage to units owned by heroes with much lower defence scores, so it rather makes one utter aloud "Meh". Obviously some people choose Havez and the people who disagree with my view on War Machines for Academy will mostly be happy to play as him.

Leadership - I like it for my theoretical "March of the Golems" ultimate skillwheel (Razzak, Leadership with Diplomacy, Artificial Glory and Aura of Swiftness, Logistics, Attack, Defence and either Light Magic or Enlightenment), but realistically, I think the following is more practical for the way I like to play:

(Best as Razzak)
Defence: Vitality (initial) + Stand Your Ground + Evasion.
Power of Endurance instead of (probably) Evasion or (still quite possibly) SYG if I've been forced to get MoBlessings to avoid worse choices or if I seem to be against Dark Magic. If you can avoid needing mass blessings, it's defensively much nicer because you have evasion for extra defence vs range AND can get a much larger bonus from defending, not ONLY because of SYG but also because of a maximal +12 bonus from MoAbjuration, rather than the +9 from Power of Endurance.
In addition though, in the other scenario, aside from magi, crossbowmen and heroes with the Unicorn Horn Bow, ranged units only deal half their 'normal' damage, so it's more important for academy to defend against mêlée attacks properly because it's usually stronger, so if you had to choose SYG+PoD is totally worth it with MoBlessings vs Dark casters instead of evasion because of that, this fact convincingly bolstered with my summoning preference due to Fog Veil hurting their initiative and 'nerfing' their damage to 75%. 20% more would be less useful than being able to use SYG and endurance en masse to make the might enemy deal notably less with attacks than you dish out with retaliations! (Well, that is dependant on the unit)

Light Magic: Wrath + Storm Wind + Abjuration OR Blessings vs Necro/Inferno/someone with a record of going dark as something else (like Elvin and others when Dungeon, maybe?) or in the aforementioned Def.Condition.
Enlightenment: Intelligence -> Wizard's Reward & either Mentoring, Graduate or, if it DOES allow you to learn from allied units as well, perhaps Arcane Intuition. Good for trinket strength and bonus point in every thing. It all helps. It also uses up a slot and I really think people should avoid using Enlightenment when it seems appropriate, because it uses up a slot for perhaps less benefit in general than defence, attack, luck, light and leadership (all dependant on race though), but unfortunately, I think it mostly ISN'T appropriate to drop it. Often Stronghold, but extra attack and defence help them to stay overpowered and all stronghold players want that, of course. I like dropping it as Sylvan for Luck-Leadership-Logistics & 2 of Attack/Defence/Destructive/Light.

Logistics: Pathfinding -> March of the Golems & Teleport Assault (I never like it without expert light though)
Summoning Magic: Master of Earthblood and Fog Veil (OF COURSE) + Banish if appropriate perhaps or else Master of ...Life? Or Conjuration? It depends on the circumstances. My patch makes Banish better but also Fist of Wrath becomes a little stronger at Advanced and Expert, so I'd go Life otherwise.
Instead of Summoning, you could get Sorcery for more constant casting, Attack if it pops up, or maybe Luck just for that 30% chance of doubling damage (which effectively gives you +15% unreliable damage), but Expert attack gives you +15% reliable damage, battle strong GARGOYLES and gremlins and archery with tactics. You have to remember that Fog Veil means not only that archers will act later but that their damage is significantly lowered. Attack and Battle Frenzy gives smaller bonuses than Fog Veil (though not the two combined), but if Academy can stay alive more easily, they can cast more enchantments, such as say, Mass Righteous Might, which, at Expert level, will boost them by more. Expert Fire Trap is wonderful (gawd, clearing is so much fun to watch vs non shooters) and Arcane Crystal can work wonders against shooters with gremlins or just your hero's attack - they often move to avoid being hit by it, but then they just spent a full turn without shooting you, so you've saved units! (gawd, cearing is so much fun even vs shooters!).
They're great for defending a castle siege (plant fire trap inside to stuff flyers, especially the big fast fat ones like griffins, dragons, angels and devils), and Summon Hive is great in some of those situations in which you're not sure what else is best (BUT WHAT, ELVIN? Did you say you can summon multiple?! For some reason I always thought it was like Summon Elemental in that regard!!!)
Arcane Armour has its place (on a Rakshasa stack, perhaps), Conjure Phoenix...should be strengthened...
Phantom Forces can work wonders, Earthquake never does enough even at Expert Level, Wasp Swarm is great for clearing shooters also, if you can get Advanced or better (especially with Jhora and Advanced or better Sorcery).
Okay, that's enough for now, other than the following few creature notes and questions.

Clarification request: Does the 'Dampen Magic' ability of Battle Mages just shield adjacent stacks from the PHYSICAL attack of other mages, archmagi and battle magi? (The last looks odd for some reason)
Or do they actually take reduced/no damage from magical attacks?
¡¿Surely it's not the last!?

Once you have the Treasure Cave, damage dealt by Djinn is actually the highest at tier 5 if you don't count the attributes of the heroes. Of course, you SHOULD count the hero's attack score, but the attack, damage, initiative & speed scores of Djinn are something to consider. Also, with more each week, the health score of a Djinni stack is —_—¯—LESS—¯—_— woeful. n.b Unlike most other single/plural situations involving a final 'i', the singular of these and other genies are Djinni/Efreeti/Janni while the plurals are Djinn/Efreet/Jann. {Thank you and good night.}
Does anyone choose Djinni Sultans (labelled 'Djinn Sultans') and if not, would you choose them if they had 15 attack & 14 defence compared to the Viziers, as well as also having immunity to air (they are still Djinn, after all)?

Titans - Choose Storm Titans only against teams with more ranged units because until you have especially large armies, Cloud (normal) Titans can use lightning bolt at close range to deal modest damage without retaliation at close range? (or from Succubi)
T'was only 2588+ words long.
____________
*Lightning strikes!*
.....
*Cumulonimbus gather*
"Darkness will befall those who fall over around midnight."
*The World is stunned by the power of the mysterious anticlimax*

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adriancat
adriancat


Famous Hero
Protector Of The Peace
posted September 04, 2010 08:04 AM

how i can get rare skills like defence on a wizard?it's very hard to take one of these skills.

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Vangelis21
Vangelis21


Supreme Hero
Manchild
posted September 04, 2010 08:42 AM

what do you mean "how" ?
it is a matter of chance. you have 2% chances to get defense. and yes, this is rare. But there is no way that you can manipulate the level-up so you get what you want.

the ONLY thing you can do, is learn how try and get what you want instead of what it gives you. this happens by not getting just anything that comes.

example:

you have:
enlightenment
sorcery
light magic

and suddenly you are offered, luck and 2 stupid perks. i bet that you would choose the luck. that is the wrong way, if you want to get defense, attack, leadership etc. keep skills at aminimum, so you are offered more later.

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Vangelis21
Vangelis21


Supreme Hero
Manchild
posted September 04, 2010 08:45 AM

Quote:
You can't be pure at late stages of a long game.


of course you can. and most of the times you should. filling up 2 of the 5 places for skills with magic schools it is not wise. ONLY when you need it for specific reasons (against orcs).

otherwise, you need might also.

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Warlord
Warlord


Famous Hero
Lord of Image Spam
posted September 04, 2010 05:51 PM

Quote:
what do you mean "how" ?
it is a matter of chance. you have 2% chances to get defense. and yes, this is rare. But there is no way that you can manipulate the level-up so you get what you want.

the ONLY thing you can do, is learn how try and get what you want instead of what it gives you. this happens by not getting just anything that comes.

example:

you have:
enlightenment
sorcery
light magic

and suddenly you are offered, luck and 2 stupid perks. i bet that you would choose the luck. that is the wrong way, if you want to get defense, attack, leadership etc. keep skills at aminimum, so you are offered more later.


And choose the stupid perks. Great choice, Vangelis.

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Vangelis21
Vangelis21


Supreme Hero
Manchild
posted September 04, 2010 07:52 PM

if your sentence was ironic, then i am glad to say that you need to experiment with levelling up a little more.

YES, when you NEED a specific skill, you wait and take stupid perks until you see it

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Warlord
Warlord


Famous Hero
Lord of Image Spam
posted September 04, 2010 10:15 PM

You don't NEED defense with Academy. Mini-arties make your troops fine while your wizard casts.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Rejuvenation process
posted September 04, 2010 10:21 PM

Quote:
You don't NEED defense with Academy.

If there was an award for the most misguided post in the forum this one would be a pretty good contestant. Seriously. If you take part in Towerlord's duel tournament I can show you how easy it is for academy units to die, esp vs might factions like haven, orcs or sylvan.

Now about what Vangelis said. Well.. if you do need a skill (as you will often need light for stormwind vs sylvan for example) you are usually better off getting some less than useful perks. However I'd normally avoid perks that open up more useless perks since it would be a guaranteed mess later on.
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