Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info mods forum | HOMM4: info CTG forum | HOMM5: info mods forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Tavern of the Rising Sun > Thread: wow Anybody hear from New York? World Trade Centrum....
Thread: wow Anybody hear from New York? World Trade Centrum.... This thread is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT»
Preserver
Preserver


Promising
Famous Hero
Elemental Druid
posted September 17, 2001 11:23 PM

I learned some things by reading that letter. Thank you LordPaul.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
princess_zelda
princess_zelda


Adventuring Hero
house elf
posted September 17, 2001 11:26 PM

Quote:
Okay, I had to add this.

Ozzy?, You want war?  You'd be the first to die.  They'd draft your ass, and send you over there to fight.  If I were to judge your I.Q. by what you say, you'd be unable to handle anything but an infintry position.  Seeing as only braggards are the ones to use fighting words, you'd be too scared to fight, and you'd die.  

Princess?, grow up.  War is nothing to you because as a woman you'd never see the battle (no offense to other female board members).  And being young you'd have no idea of the consequences of war.  People die.  Histories are destroyed.  Young men who have no say in their own lives (in both countries) would die over a war started by racial prejudices.  How does the war end?  The same way.

Everyone who thinks we should nuke them, what the hell do you smoke?  Ever hear of Nuclear winter?  Look it up.  We nuke them, then radioactive isotopes would spread in the atmosphere, killing practically all life in Eurasia.



Think before you speak.


Don't tell me what I know
____________
Jocelyn: "A flower is only as good as it's petals, don't you think?"
Sir Ulrich:"A flower is good for nothing. You can't eat it, it doesn't keep you warm..."
Jocelyn:"And A rose never knocked a man ... too long to display...

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
princess_zelda
princess_zelda


Adventuring Hero
house elf
posted September 17, 2001 11:45 PM

Do you live in either of the countries? Don't tell me I am to young to understand what war does! I've read enough History to know. Do me a favor lord paul myob.
Its really lame the way you think you're so cool.
____________
Jocelyn: "A flower is only as good as it's petals, don't you think?"
Sir Ulrich:"A flower is good for nothing. You can't eat it, it doesn't keep you warm..."
Jocelyn:"And A rose never knocked a man ... too long to display...

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
RMS
RMS


Responsible
Legendary Hero
-ing yummy foods
posted September 18, 2001 12:23 AM

...its truly sad to see such ignorance of some people...its nice to know at least a few people here are still level headed...
____________
This space for rent.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
ozzyosbourne
ozzyosbourne


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
Riddler of the Sky
posted September 18, 2001 01:20 AM

I'd die with honor, i dont care if im the first to die, the second, the 57th, or the last. i want war and i want to die in war.

And im not stupid or mest up, its just the way i look at it.
____________
Life is like a carousel. Spinning fast you got to ride them well. The only time you speak is in your dreams.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
ozzyosbourne
ozzyosbourne


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
Riddler of the Sky
posted September 18, 2001 01:35 AM

well i just heard on the radio this:

"U.S. has called the leader nations around the world. and its said Pakistan wants to help and will sign a certain alliance to drive out Terrorism, along as well as England, Germany, France, Japan, Italy and Russia.. one reason why Russia wants to help and willing to help is because most of these battles now are being fought on their soil.

It is also said China themselves want to help because they're not fans of Bin Laden themselves. They said they'll never forgive U.S. but they don't like us as much as they don't like Laden.. Also U.S. has also been talking about bombing some Middle East countries. And soon there will be a chance they would bomb Iraq. But the time they might do this is within several weeks from now..

And i think this is a bad idea to wait that long, because it gives the people held responsible for this a chance to escape.

..One thing Bush said is for the fellow Americans to hold in their anger, because alot of violence has been going on to those from the Middle East who are actually loving and caring citizens to the U.S."

Now this isn't a direct quote, i just wrote as much as i could remember of what i heard.
____________
Life is like a carousel. Spinning fast you got to ride them well. The only time you speak is in your dreams.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
RMS
RMS


Responsible
Legendary Hero
-ing yummy foods
posted September 18, 2001 02:04 AM

"Don't be a fool and die for your country. Let the other sonofasnow die for his."

...as soon as you see how terrible war truly is, then I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if you longed with all your heart that you were anywhere else but there...it is not entertainment to kill others, or put blind faith in yourself and your country, simply convicting yourself to a nearly inevitable death...it will not help anybody any if you die in war, or even before then...you cannot imagine what harm you can do to those that love you dearly so, that one day someone comes to your parents' doorstep to announce your death..

...war is not all glory in honor...in fact, I would say it to be nearly the opposite...there is no honor, when someone else holds your bloody lifeless body in their hands...there is only sorrow and regret in that...

...it is true that at this standing, most of the major countries pledge their support to the USA, but be warned that there are so very many whom are still opposed, and as few as they may appear to be in comparison, just one sole survivor can create unimaginable destruction...even if we find every last one who has committed this atrocity and wipe them from existence (which is impossible) there shall always be those that rise to the status of a terrorist...it is inevitable...

...of course it is not wise to wait to long to take action, but as far as I've seen, that does not appear to be the case...however, it is not wise to go in and recklessly kill everyone in sight...it is so very much more complicated than simply bombing the entire country...in such a manner, we would be as or worse than they are...do not succumb to evil, do not retaliate wrong for wrong...instead bring justice and enforce the laws of liberty and freedom...we must take care to make sure that if possible, there be no innocent punished for the wrongdoings of others...always must one take time to consider the aftermath of an operation...no matter what one ever does in this universe, in some way it will affect others...at all costs, we shall attempt to be in the light, to retain a generally positive reputation...I know that there are many that blame ourselves for all that has occured...we should not stick out noses in other people's buisiness and we'de be alright...to some degree, that is completely true...however, although whenever we mitigate between two rivaling factions, while we create a potential enemy, we gain allies...whenever someone else is in need, if we are in the position to help , we must seek it within ourselves to do all we can to aid them in their efforts...if we never help others in their times of need, how can we ever expect the help of others in ours? Everyone knows that we are not perfect, and that many thing that go wrong are truly our fault, but while dwell in this sunken state of being? A positive outlook must be retained, and at times, a burning anger is needed and expected from all...but is it worth everything to sacrifice even one extra life than need be? Every death is a tragedy, no tally of numbers when it comes to a death is ever simply a statistic...there is meaning and significance to every individual life...whenever someone dies in the world, we lose a part of history...it is simply that there are parts that we do not want...that is why is must be prevented...at times actions which are delayed are for the best...with that, sometimes the best decisive course of action is seen through extended consideration...

...we must rise above all this challenge, once and united for all to stamp out this pest...they must be exterminated, and as soon as it makes pokes its head out of its hole again, eradicate it, no matter how insignificant it may seem...

God Bless America!
____________
This space for rent.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
CraigHack
CraigHack


Known Hero
Have fantasies, will travel...
posted September 18, 2001 02:16 AM

Responsibility....

Some of you obviously dont understand the problem here...

There are many GOOD Muslims, GOOD Afghanis, GOOD Arabs!
There are many really CRAPPY Americans, Dutch, Aussies, Germans, Greeks, Polinesians.... whatever.

We are not going to declare war on any country!!

We are going to declare war against terrorism, whether it be in Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq, Ireland or the USA!!!!

I want the people responsible to pay with their lives and then rot in hell! But... Many of the people in those countries with bad leaders are just ordinary people struggling to make it from day to day.
Innocent people exist in all countries today, just as always.

Its time for all decent people in all countries to join together to put an end to terrorism.

I know that we are angry and we want to do something for revenge! Lets just take our revenge on the right people!

I have been in a war, I have seen people die, I have helped cause people to die. Some people NEED to die!! But some of them are US. In all our countries.

I know for sure that some of you younger ones will understand when you get to be about 30 years old.... just how little you knew about ANYTHING when you were in your teens.

Lets do it folks, but lets do it right!!!
____________
The Gods have brought us together... I can't imagine why.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
bort
bort


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
posted September 18, 2001 02:41 AM

Quote:
I've read enough History to know.

hmmm.  Guess that settles it then.  

The war(can't think of a better term to use.  "conflict" trivializes it) isn't with the muslims, the war's with terrorists.(those commiting "revenge" acts against people who happen to be brown are terrorists themselves)  True muslims are probably the ones who are most outraged by this since it also makes them look bad, sort of like how true christians are the ones who hate Falwell and the "christian" right the most (speaking of which, apparently he blames gays and feminists for the attack).  

I don't think that showing the Palestinians celebrating was "propaganda."  They knew what had happened and they were cheering it.  The cameraman didn't say "I'll give you gold if you dance and cheer."  However, I hope that that is not representative of the normal middle eastern attitude.  However, since similar celebrations were taking place in US allies such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt, we yankees may be hated even more than we think.  Once again, though, this is certainly not the muslim attitude.  After all, not only were the american muslims horrified, but I'd have to assume that the Indonesian ones were, too.

I'm not entirely clear what more proof is needed to justify going after Bin Laden.  I suppose the argument is that he's innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, but since we can't get him into a court of law without military action (assuming the Taliban doesn't hand him over).  I'm not even sure if it matters if Bin Laden did this particular act.  There's considerable evidence that he's commited other terrorist acts (I believe that he's even claimed credit for some earlier, more "minor" acts).  He still needs to be brought to justice for those acts.  In addition, he still has the motive and capability to commit other acts.  If he's not stopped now, we'll be having this same argument in 2 years.

As for the Taliban, they're a danger both to the western world (by helping terrorists) and to their own people, so I have limited sympathy for them.  I feel sorry for the Afghan people, but hey, what's one more combatant going to matter to the Afghan on the street?  (Don't want to sound callous, but seriously, I don't think the US invading could make things much worse for the Afghani people)

I'm of draftable age, and I certainly don't want to be in the front lines, but if it came down to that, I think I'd feel safer taking my tour of duty and getting it over with than be scared for the rest of my life.

Nukes are not an option.  Using them would be so incredibly stupid it doesn't even merit debate.  Same with chemical and biological weapons.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
RMS
RMS


Responsible
Legendary Hero
-ing yummy foods
posted September 18, 2001 03:40 AM bonus applied.

...if I have my facts right, Pakistan has placed an ultimatum (basically orders from the US I presume) on Afghanistan and the Taliban to produce Bin Laden within three days, or basically they (and we) are going to force some type of military action upon them...the thing is that in nearly all acts of terrorism, someone has admitted or rather announced to all that it was they who committed it...in this case though, he has neither done that nor even said something like, "you brought this upon yourselves, you dirty Americans!" ...because of this, although he is prime suspect number one, he has been charged with international guilt, but it is not confimed...most likely, once they find him, he will be be put forth before a trial on an international court...the problem is that once he is gone, it is extremely simple to just have another of his sect to simply rise up and take control of his group...no matter what anyone does, there will ahd shall always be terrorism...

...however, there is a main misconception about Taliban...the thing is that the main concept that it revolves around is simply that the lifestyle led west the West is completely and totally evil...in this being, a part of this group takes it upon themselves to do all they can do against this "satanist power"...in their view, they are fighting a holy war against all that is evil...however, supposedly, there are many members of Taliban that do not necessarily support what has been done...also are those that were not directly connected with these tragedies, but support and harbor the enemy...my point is that not only is Afghanistan not completely against us, neither is the Taliban as a whole...

...still though, I am an essentially a supporter of non-violence, probably providing an explanation of why I do not want anyone to go to war, and have the military do as little as possible to accomplish the said goal...however, in this case, I must agree that whatever needs to be done, must be done...its simply that we must watch out for what the is and how to go about doing it...rationally and calmly with a burning in our hearts may be the best way to do it...some people just need to die, there is no use in keeping them alive is they've already brainwahed themselves to believe in one thing and one thing only...

...I myself, speaking on relative terms
am not even close to becoming of draftable age, but that does not mean I have no idea what I'm talking about...I don't wish to appear ignorant or headstrong, but in frank truth, I would characterize myself at the very least of above average wisdom if not intelligence as well...it is always be a good idea to stay completely informed about important issues, and make sure you're not swayed by the media all the time...before making irrational statements conferred by others, one must always wait for justification...of course, its just hard to get through to some people, being that its extremely difficult to alter one's wave of thinking after being molded into that fashion after such long years...what I feel is important is to put our faith in our government, because as it was us who put them there, they know what we want or will find out...its no use bringing up past incidents and inviting wrath upon outselves, condemning the government for what are at the core, us ourselves...



____________
This space for rent.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
dArGOn
dArGOn


Famous Hero
posted September 18, 2001 09:11 AM

Criticize our president...shame on you!

I just got to say to the few people in this thread who have criticized President Bush...how dare you...shame on you!

This is a time to unite not to criticize our leaders.

This type of rhetoric is not only inappropriate it is pretty ignorant.

As President....lets see...a huge terrorist attack occurs unexpectantly... you are shocked...massive loss of lives...huge destruction of buildings...the USA is in confusion and fear...no precedent like this has ever been seen in USA before...the terrorist are also possibly trying to kill you...you are flying here and there as there is intelligence that the you are in danger...you are meeting with your military with the intelligence community, with the heads of New York state, with congress...heads of other nations are calling you constantly...you are trying to assess what has happened while at the same time trying to provide relief for the victims...you are planning security and military defense...you are trying to assimilate a possible military strike...all in one day...and lets see...you are worried about his speech!!!!!!!!!!  What is wrong with you!!!

Sure his speech was not the Gettysburg address, but in that kind of situation who could?  Unless of course you want a President who is a computer and can amass a huge amount of information in seconds in combination with someone who is totally uncaring and out of touch with their feelings that they can give a rousing speech like it was the election primaries or something.  Every step of the way he has given us the information pertinent to our comfort and direction.

Lastly do you measure the quality and intelligence of a person by their speeches???  For God's sake aren't you the least bit aware that there are multitudes of people of high intelligence that don't have awesome speaking skills?  It is a sad reflection on our society that we measure a leader's ability by their charisma and speaking abilities not by who they are as a person and there actual ability to get things done.

Personally I have been impressed by his leadership...as the days have passed we have witnessed awesome speeches and moreover I have been moved by his very apparent compassion and conviction.

I would hope those of you who like to criticize would join the honorable example of the democrats who have put politics and ideology aside and joined behind our President!

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
zonekill
zonekill


Adventuring Hero
Wiedzmin
posted September 18, 2001 12:22 PM

There will be a war in Afganistan

The U.S. military wants to make test with new weapons, the industry needs new contracts. I say - Money . It's biggest businnes in the world. Jugoslavia, Kosovo, Ethiopia and Vietnam, Nicaragua, Irak in the past. America wake up, look at the ppl that u trust and that u belive in. They are not what they seem to be.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Oh_Smeg
Oh_Smeg


Adventuring Hero
posted September 18, 2001 02:07 PM

Dammit...

I feel sick right now...thinking about what happened last week and what may be coming.

There is so much inequality in this world. Heck...the average Afghani is reduced to watching a stoning or hanging in the way of entertainment...instead of the Simpsons or a night out on the town...this is really, really sad.

I DESPISE all people who claim to know the will of god and presume to know what is right for their fellow men in the way of moral standards. It is bullying...plain and simple.

What is needed right now is understanding...an understanding of the motives behind this deplorable and heinous attack. When the US understands why this Islamic hatred exists they can take steps at reconciliation. Only reconciliation can produce a lasting peace. Either that or exterminate a third of the world's population...only then could you rest..as any time you kill a muslim 10 will rise in their place.

I feel that many Muslims are jealous of US standards of living and freedom and perversely turn this into Jihad.
This is really sad also.

I hope for the sake of all mankind a way of peace is found...otherwise I see a terrible future for the children of this world.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
pluvious
pluvious


Promising
Adventuring Hero
posted September 18, 2001 07:24 PM

Now that the day of the tragedy is a week gone by I feel it is acceptable to talk about political or social issues regarding what is taking place.  I am an American and obviously upset at what has happened.  My first reaction was shock.  Later this turned to anger at this apparently unprovoked attack.

However, there are always many layers of an issue as complicated as this, with so many different people involved.  Why did the terrorists do this?  Because they hate our country?  Probably...but there could be other reasons as well...including economics.  

I remember when it first happened I had no idea what we would do as a country to retaliate.  When I heard the word "war" mentioned I was suprised.  Maybe I am naive but was this the only option?  It seems to me Bush and the government immediately seized upon our anger and fear and "told us" war was the way to go.  Why not just "go and find the terrorists and bring them to justice"?  Why war?  Yes, maybe it was an attack on our country and maybe the government knew who did it and that he couldn't be taken without military action.  But its just that I was starting to think that wars maybe should be a thing of the past...

I'm not a pacifist or anything it is just that it seems to me that terming this thing a war and choosing up sides is a bit juvenille at this point.  Its not like this is the a powerful nation that we must unite against or our way of life will be jeopordized.  Then again, maybe letting the terrorists know how serious we are is the best thing?  

What bothers me mostly is our government basically just jumping right in and calling it a war.  Its almost like someone else said that they want to use this to get our economy going in a war effort.  One of the things that can make an administration remembered is if the commander in chief led us to victory in war.  

I guess I'm just cynical but I can't help but think that everything isn't as it seems...

By the way those few of you who are not from the USA and who have said negative things about it in wake of this tragedy...I feel sorry for you.  But we welcome you in...our doors are open to everyone.  
____________
...Pluvious...
-The Storm Before the Calm-

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Oh_Smeg
Oh_Smeg


Adventuring Hero
posted September 18, 2001 08:14 PM

I think it's the scale of this tragedy...

I think it's the scale of this tragedy that brought Bush to declare "War on terrorism". He is obviously very distressed by what has happened and he needed to do SOMETHING.
A statement that they would find whoever is responsible and bring them to justice hardly seems commensurate with the crime.

It may simply be a matter of a loose coalition of terrorists hitting upon the idea of how vulnerable the US was to an airliner hijacking and suicide bombing. There may have been very few people involved. Cardboard cutters and mace aren't exactly the tools of a sophisticated conspiracy.

Why must war ravaged psychos always feel it necessary to drag new generations into conflict......seems to be a recurring theme through history.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
princess_zelda
princess_zelda


Adventuring Hero
house elf
posted September 18, 2001 08:35 PM

Quote:
...as soon as you see how terrible war truly is, then I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if you longed with all your heart that you were anywhere else but there...it is not entertainment to kill others, or put blind faith in yourself and your country, simply convicting yourself to a nearly inevitable death...it will not help anybody any if you die in war, or even before then...you cannot imagine what harm you can do to those that love you dearly so, that one day someone comes to your parents' doorstep to announce your death..

...war is not all glory in honor...in fact, I would say it to be nearly the opposite...there is no honor, when someone else holds your bloody lifeless body in their hands...there is only sorrow and regret in that...

...it is true that at this standing, most of the major countries pledge their support to the USA, but be warned that there are so very many whom are still opposed, and as few as they may appear to be in comparison, just one sole survivor can create unimaginable destruction...even if we find every last one who has committed this atrocity and wipe them from existence (which is impossible) there shall always be those that rise to the status of a terrorist...it is inevitable...

...of course it is not wise to wait to long to take action, but as far as I've seen, that does not appear to be the case...however, it is not wise to go in and recklessly kill everyone in sight...it is so very much more complicated than simply bombing the entire country...in such a manner, we would be as or worse than they are...do not succumb to evil, do not retaliate wrong for wrong...instead bring justice and enforce the laws of liberty and freedom...we must take care to make sure that if possible, there be no innocent punished for the wrongdoings of others...always must one take time to consider the aftermath of an operation...no matter what one ever does in this universe, in some way it will affect others...at all costs, we shall attempt to be in the light, to retain a generally positive reputation...I know that there are many that blame ourselves for all that has occured...we should not stick out noses in other people's buisiness and we'de be alright...to some degree, that is completely true...however, although whenever we mitigate between two rivaling factions, while we create a potential enemy, we gain allies...whenever someone else is in need, if we are in the position to help , we must seek it within ourselves to do all we can to aid them in their efforts...if we never help others in their times of need, how can we ever expect the help of others in ours? Everyone knows that we are not perfect, and that many thing that go wrong are truly our fault, but while dwell in this sunken state of being? A positive outlook must be retained, and at times, a burning anger is needed and expected from all...but is it worth everything to sacrifice even one extra life than need be? Every death is a tragedy, no tally of numbers when it comes to a death is ever simply a statistic...there is meaning and significance to every individual life...whenever someone dies in the world, we lose a part of history...it is simply that there are parts that we do not want...that is why is must be prevented...at times actions which are delayed are for the best...with that, sometimes the best decisive course of action is seen through extended consideration...

...we must rise above all this challenge, once and united for all to stamp out this pest...they must be exterminated, and as soon as it makes pokes its head out of its hole again, eradicate it, no matter how insignificant it may seem...

God Bless America!


I'm not trying to start any thing but If there was a "god"
and he was all good and everything wouldn't he have stopped this all before it started? It's just my opinion.
____________
Jocelyn: "A flower is only as good as it's petals, don't you think?"
Sir Ulrich:"A flower is good for nothing. You can't eat it, it doesn't keep you warm..."
Jocelyn:"And A rose never knocked a man ... too long to display...

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
malkia
malkia


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 18, 2001 09:57 PM

Quote:
I'm not trying to start any thing but If there was a "god" and he was all good and everything wouldn't he have stopped this all before it started? It's just my opinion./quote]

Well if there was god so good, as you are describing - then there will be no world at all. As scriptures are saying we are here because of our sin that Adam and Eve done by eating the apple. So it is... If there is a god at all, that is

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
bort
bort


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
posted September 18, 2001 10:18 PM

First of all, I and all other people have every right to criticize George W. if we so desire.  That's what separates the US from the Taliban.  Personally, I think he's done a fair job, although I'm upset that he didn't take time out the day this happened to specifically tell people NOT to take this out on muslims/apparently muslim people in the US, and I think he trivialized the issue with comments like "we're going to get the 'folks' that did this" and "I'm a loving kind of guy"  I also think that the "wanted dead or alive" comment was entirely innappropriate since that is exactly what the terrorists say about americans.  That said, it being a crisis, he does have the benefit of the doubt, but lets not act like we have to blindly follow our hallowed leader every time something terrible happens.

As far as the are we at war question, the problem seems to be the confusion between "are we at war with the islamic world/Afghanistan/middle east? (depending on how gung-ho the speaker is)" and "are we at war with the people who did this?"  To the first question I certainly hope not, although once again, I wish George W. would make that more explicit in his speeches (instead of mentioning in passing from time to time "oh yeah, we don't mind muslims in general).  To the second question, I don't think our opinion matters, the people who did this clearly think that they are at war with us.  HOWEVER, if it does turn out that the Taliban or other governments are implicitly or explicitly aiding the terrorist groups than we are also at war with those governments, which unfortunately means we are also at war with the country.  The US, ever since Vietnam, has at least made attempts to avoid civilian casualties, to the point where some nations have been able to prevent damage to their strategic targets by placing civilians around them.  I hope that this policy will continue in the event of an actual war of the traditional variety.  Please note that a war on the people who did "this" includes terrorists of all sorts, certainly including American right wing terrorists.

I am generally very strenuously opposed to military action, but in this case, I reluctantly have to support it, though I must defer saying on what scale I think it should be on until more evidence is out.  The general argument against military action is that 2 wrongs don't make a right, and that it might not solve the problem, in fact it might make it worse.  Although maybe I will be utterly shocked, I seriously doubt that this can be resolved by diplomatic channels -- the people willing to abide by diplomatic solutions are not the people who did this.  While we can certainly make agreements with various governments, the actual level of control they have over terrorist organizations is limited to zilch (even if they are aiding the terrorists, they probably have no control).  As far as handing over Bin Laden, it would be nice, but he's only the tip of the iceberg.  Economic sanctions have all of the same problems as military solutions, with an even lower level of success (ie Iraq and Cuba, though let me be the first to say that I very much oppose the sanctions on Cuba).  The only other option that I can think of, which is do nothing, is certainly not an option since that will certainly lead to more civilian casualties, they'd just be westerners rather than easterners and the casualties would definitely be higher than if the US were to invade a nation -- remember, this has shown terrorists everywhere exactly how high they can set their sights for destruction.

As I wrote this, I was reading an article that says that Israel and Palestine have renewed their cease fire.  I certainly hope it works this time, and wouldn't that just be a kick in Bin Laden's teeth it this is what actually leads to Jewish and Islamic peaceful coexistence?

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
StormWarning
StormWarning


Promising
Famous Hero
Archmage of Thunder
posted September 18, 2001 10:48 PM

Quote:
Personally, I think he's done a fair job, although I'm upset that he didn't take time out the day this happened to specifically tell people NOT to take this out on muslims/apparently muslim people in the US


He has told us not to take it out on Muslims or Arabs. Some people just ignore it and take it out on them anyway. That makes me mad, because for every one of the terrorists there are probably a few million innocent, law-abiding Muslims and Arabs. It's the same type of thing that happened after Pearl Harbor when people started going after Japanese-Americans.
____________
The calm before the storm is about to end.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
pluvious
pluvious


Promising
Adventuring Hero
posted September 19, 2001 07:40 AM

One thing I have heard on the radio (I don't watch tv) is one way to go would be to find and execute the families of the terrorists who did this.  This is because one reason the terrorists are willing to give their lives for the "cause" is in order for their families to be taken care of financially after their deaths and because these same family members earn prestige due to the actions of the terrorists.

This seems extreme to me but then again are we trying to stop these attacks from continuing or not?  And are these families innocent?  I'm not sure...
____________
...Pluvious...
-The Storm Before the Calm-

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread » This thread is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT»
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.0724 seconds