|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
posted April 17, 2007 12:30 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Would you like to be a professor at a school, who is extremely smart and skilled at maths, but old, and has spent his life studying and learning, becoming wise, but never learnt social skills, lost all his friends in his pursuit of knowledge, never had time for a relationship, and hence, has no family, and in the end kills himself of his misery?
One of my closest friends and mentors was a person like that. He didn't kill himself though, but he was an alcoholic. He was truly wise; I have learned much from him; and he's pretty much responsible for most good things in me. And believe me, I would give anything to be half like him.
He also DID have friends; reasoning that persons who devote themselves to science don't have friends is untrue. If you have friends or not doesn't depend on whether you are wise or not, but what kind of person you are. There are wise people who are open to friends and have a lot of them (like that friend of mine and many great scientists such as Einstein), and you have persons of average or lower than average intelligence who have very little friends because they are shy and closed inside themselves.
Quote:
and besides, I'm sure Paris Hilton is pretty happy with herself
No she's not. She's resorts to extravagance and scandals out of her own complexes and because she knows that whoever is trying to be 'friends' with her does so only for the money and fame.
Trust me, she is a very sad person deep inside herself.
Quote:
not that personal opinion arguments aren't FUN
 Word...
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
homam
Known Hero
Sailor of the open seas
|
|
posted April 17, 2007 11:38 PM |
|
|
Well i'm sure mother-nature, dear Gaia is very pleased with smart people... (Cars, Houses, Cellphones.)
Lol you just pushed yourself into your own trapdoor.
So u don't like these eh?But i'm sure u are using them.You live in a house for sure.You are using a car to move yourself.If u go to another town how would u go?By foot?With a bike?No with a car or a plane or something harmful to "mother nature"
Well in my opinion we humans are very weak creatures.You,I and many other people are a living example of that.You hate many things,you know that are harmful for yourself and nature but what do u do?You just keep using them(i don't speak specificaly for u).Why?Cause we can't do different.We can't stop building houses and return to caves.We can't stop producing cars and make our movings by our foot. That's all are very imaginary.If u can't do something for u to stop use them u can't judge them.
For example me,I daily think of the people in africa that are dying cause they haven't not food,but even water!What i'm doing?I just go for a coffee,i just spend so money to buy a car,i just give daily 3 euros in my cigarettes.I ve never given a single euro to these people that have not even water.That's make me sad and i'm thinking of it every single day,every time i 'm buying something.But i had never done something to change it.Cause i'm ok with my life.Cause i'm another weak materialist human.
I know that but i don't think i can or want to change it.
____________
I think we aren't in Kansas anymore Toto
|
|
TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
|
|
posted April 18, 2007 09:45 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Lol sure you can have an opinion, but don't be so certain, geez, it's annoying when people are so overconfident. Even if they are right 
Are the phrases "I think that" or "in my opinion" out of your dictionary? Do you all have to say "ITS LIKE THAT, AND ITS THE TRUTH YOU BLINDIE" even when it comes to personal feelings for smth?  It's like music. People who say "METALLICA PWNS ALL OF YOU WHO THINK OPPOSITE ARE WRONG AND STOP BEING DUMB" are..err.. annoying?
Read the first post.
If I were to say "in my opinion" every time I wanted to it would be added to every post in this thread, no?
So I leave it out.
Come back when you actually understand the thread, and if you don't like people being certain about their opinion then you probably shouldn't come back.
Sorry for annoying you so much. 
I saw the funniest scene on Chaser's War on Everything today
Where they do the "Have We Learnt Our Lesson" skit, and on this episode it was The Book of Genesis lol. specifically Adam and Eve accepting the fruit from the serpent in the garden of Eden
So one of the guys, to see if people have learnt there lesson, dressed up as a serpent and took a basket of apples to churches, synagogues and mosques, offering ppl fruit, and they would take it and the words SINNER would come up he even offered it to some archbishop lol
but the funniest religious video I've ever seen is Ricky Gervais (actor of David Brent from The Office, and from the show The Extras) talking about god in his 'Animals' lecture
contains some swearing though.
this is the exerpt. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post it, but its not too bad
WARNING: CONTAINS SWEARING! Ricky Gervais on Genesis
____________
John says to live above hell.
|
|
TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
|
|
posted April 19, 2007 09:52 AM |
|
|
"I can't be a priest because although my heart is as loud as hers I can pretend no answering riot. I have shouted to God and the Virgin, but they have not shouted back and I'm not interested in the still small voice. Surely a god can meet passion with passion?
She says he can.
Then he should."
-The Passion
____________
John says to live above hell.
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted April 19, 2007 06:24 PM |
|
|
Ok so I see I am misunderstood a lot  then I will briefly point out some things:
@TitaniumAlloy:
Quote:
Then there is nothing. Go sit in your void
What about your imagination or conscience? I think that's the only thing you really 'see'.
Quote:
You seem to think that knowing anything is impossible, which is probably true if you take it literally, but the general term 'to know' is different to that. It's in context.
Still, any person can ignore everything at all (because it's not favorable to it).. Would you like to know you're in a computer simulation? As a slave used by aliens? Created by a "higher being" such as God or whatever else? No you don't like that so you say it's impossible. Because you want to have supreme knowledge (i.e whatever you can't understand doesn't exist).
Well i still can't understand 1+1 = 2, does that mean it's a false equation?
that was only an example btw
Quote:
You can't see the monster under your bed though.
Really? I can see myself as a king right now [closes eyes to imagine himself being a king]. 
Quote:
I don't understand your point.
How does your feelings of a creator relate to someone being charged not guilty, or the existence of matter?
If you can't prove something (like he's guilty) that doesn't mean he isn't guilty.
You don't have evidence --> he's not guilty.  false!
You don't have evidence of God --> he's not there. false in my opinion!
Quote:
and btw. I know exactly what God is. It's not beyond the comprehension of Athiests God is a story. Made up by a man.
And I know exactly what God is, it's beyond our comprehension (so we use metaphors to explain His behaviour). He is not a story made by a man.
This is subjective and again depends on your 'conscience' or imagination, which creates your 'real world' so to speak.
Quote:
Are you serious? If you don't trust someone doesn't mean you want to kill them and steal from them, or anyone else for that matter. They aren't linked.
I was joking about the don't trust anyone btw, but still..
I know you were joking.
Quote:
So someone tells you that you are in a computer simulation.
Right, now what.
You can't do anything about it.
All you can do is go on with your life, ie, it hasn't affected you.
It really hasn't affected you? Are you ignorant of your knowledge? Life, for me, means more than simple 'straight do what you sense'. Wisdom and knowing affects it all, it's part of my life to know things. And if would have known that, certainly it would affect me in many ways.
Quote:
haha what?
you're leading my lovely metaphor in an entirely different direction to what it was meant..
and you seem to like the idea of a computer simulation. i guess they would be real then, in relative terms. but we aren't in that world.
Actually I meant that 'real world' is what you want it to be
Quote:
Minds and spirits do not correlate to the senses.
And your imagination or conscience expands beyond your senses. If someone doesn't have imagination, he/she is not a living creature. It's just a robot with 'programmed' instructions. And he/she doesn't think in that case either. Just imagine, when you think, what do you do? Use your imagination!
Quote:
And theres a word for people who see things in ther minds
And probably those who move things with their minds
Quote:
Hmm.. it wansn't a yes or no question.
Sorry I read it as "Are you trying to see things from God's point of view?"
Quote:
Not at all. How can you situation apply to us? Is the satellite a metaphor for god? In which case it does sound reasonable to them, and to some of us..
Ok, picture this:
The creatures on the island, they say "the explanation with the satellite is dumb" because they never, for example, discovered atoms. And will probably discover it differently, since they are different creatures. In short, same as ourselves being different from God.
For example (as an analogy, it's not serious, but to make you understand my point), God uses 'magical satellites' to watch over us. Is that a reasonable explanation for us? No it isn't you'll say it's fairy tales. But it is reasonable for God.
Same with those isolated creatures. They would say the 'scientifical satellite' is fairy tale, and the 'magical satellite' is true, for example (depends on them). Is it different? just because you understand it doesn't mean it's the only true way. God probably 'understands' it (yeah, it's a metaphor, but I said it's not serious) and knows the magical satellite. So what if you don't? The creatures in that island don't understand your satellite as well. It's a good comparation.
Btw I still don't understand how 1+1 = 2
of course i'm joking, but I want to tell you that 1 man perhaps can understand how God exists, while others (most) don't.. so? Let's suppose only 1 man can understand 1+1 = 2.. and others, because they are either dumb or ignorant, don't. So does that mean 1+1 = 2 is false because only one understands it, without showing proof (since he is too busy or simply cannot).
Btw I know 1+1 = 2 is proof, but I meant it so from a different perspective, to compare it with 'proving' God's existence.
Quote:
I still think you're trying to see things from god's point of view.
You're right
Quote:
What do you mean?
Ok, we can't picture a world without time. Where are you heading with this? That hell is the human understanding of time?
No.
The human understanding of time is... I don't know what is it? You cannot know how and why time works or exists.
Same, you cannot know how and why God works or exists.
It's simple
Quote:
'I'd rather be happy than right any day.'
Depends on 'happy' and on person. This was a subjective question of course.
Someone can be happy when he/she gets wise as well
Quote:
I don't mean god literally comes down and answers the question haha.
I mean if 'god' is the response to the question, the reply does not answer the question.
But it does answer it.. it simply doesn't expand it.
Every answer has an infinite amount of other questions. You can keep on "why"-ing until the one who answers won't be answering anymore because he doesn't know. So, you can explain that "God" did that or God did this. But you can not expand this (like asking again "why did God do that?"). Why? Because it probably cannot be explained.
People have already been "why"-ing a lot. So metaphors were created for answering some of them. But you cannot go so to infinity. There will always be questions. Some of them cannot be answered in English. Because english is just a perception of our 'natural' world that we experienced. You haven't experienced Heaven or Hell yet, am I right? Or a world without time. So can you explain it?
Even if you did experience it, can you still explain it? Just, for the sake of it, explain to be a simulation of a world without time, for example.
You can't explain it. You can't explain different worlds. So why do you want to explain God? It's enough to know that He is there (if you believe that of course, I'm only trying to show you some examples).
------------------
Now to get back to the simulation stuff.
Suppose you created a virtual world, with humanic-virtual-AIs. So? They would start out to think themselves, blablabla.. like we did.
They live after all, in a different world, without atoms with different laws of physics (so to speak), etc (because they are only a computer simulation).
Any explanation of matter to them would result in:
a) either "blind-faith" in matter (or you, their God)
b) either don't believe you (for atheists)
They do not believe in matter. So what? Does that affect their lives? Well, perhaps for some, if knowledge or wisdom affects life, then yes
No matter how they manipulated those polygons or curves (in computer systems, polygons, curves and other stuff are used, so I took it as an assumption), which is similar to ourselves manipulating matter or whatever else, they would still never know the "outside world"..
They might ask: "why are polygons here?"
A quick response: "because TA programmed it that way.." (like God created us)
That's all they can understand. Anything more deep will require metaphors or simply be incomprehensible to them.
This does not mean we are "certainly" in a virtual world. But one thing is sure: we cannot know. So we cannot know God is there.
I think He is. You think He is not. But we are probably both wrong
another example on that 1+1=2 stuff, it is not serious or true, however it does give you an idea:
if I started talking to you about "I saw God" you'd say I'm crazy or whatever. because you can't understand it.
if you started talking to me about "1+1 = 2" I'll say you're crazy as well. because I can't understand it.
|
|
TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
|
|
posted April 20, 2007 10:05 AM |
|
|
****
****
****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I just spent about god knows how long replying to your post
and then my internet decided to quit the page
god can go die i hate him
here i ******* go again ****
sorry if im absolutely furious
Quote:
Ok so I see I am misunderstood a lot then I will briefly point out some things:
mmkay.
Quote:
@TitaniumAlloy:
yes?
Quote:
Quote:
Then there is nothing. Go sit in your void
What about your imagination or conscience? I think that's the only thing you really 'see'.
ok well go sit in your imagination then if nothing else is real.
that's not what you mean though, you mean its possible that everything is not real. as i said before, yes, it is possible, but who cares? what are you gna do about it? act as if it is real, that's what, hence dismissing the idea.
Quote:
Still, any person can ignore everything at all (because it's not favorable to it).. Would you like to know you're in a computer simulation? As a slave used by aliens? Created by a "higher being" such as God or whatever else? No you don't like that so you say it's impossible. Because you want to have supreme knowledge (i.e whatever you can't understand doesn't exist).
no sir.
that is the opposite of what i have said throughout my replies to you.
ironic how you talk about misunderstanding.
I am the first one to agree that is possible that we are in a computer simulation, but as i said above, and in prior posts, its irellevant to our daily life, and doesn't affect us, so it should be acknowledged and we can move on.
Quote:
Well i still can't understand 1+1 = 2, does that mean it's a false equation?
Nor did I say that if you dont understand something it doesnt exist.
I understand religion, and know that it is false.
Quote:
that was only an example btw
k
Quote:
Really? I can see myself as a king right now [closes eyes to imagine himself being a king].
imagination = imagining
sight = seeing
Quote:
If you can't prove something (like he's guilty) that doesn't mean he isn't guilty.
true.
that's not what it is though.
its
No evidence -> not locked up
Which is a fair system, which obviously can't work 100% of the time but at the risk of sounding like a patriotic american it does protect our rights. or would you rather it guilty until proven innocent?
Quote:
You don't have evidence --> he's not guilty. false!
You don't have evidence of God --> he's not there. false in my opinion!
Never said that god isn't there because you can't prove him.
God is not there, PLUS you can't prove him.
although it could be said as
god is not there so you can't prove him. since you can't prove something that's not there.
Quote:
And I know exactly what God is, it's beyond our comprehension (so we use metaphors to explain His behaviour). He is not a story made by a man.
I understand why you think that.
And god is just a story though, that someone told you.
Who was the first person to tell you about god?
Quote:
This is subjective and again depends on your 'conscience' or imagination, which creates your 'real world' so to speak.
The day that your imagination starts creating your real world is the day you need serious help, so to speak.
Quote:
It really hasn't affected you? Are you ignorant of your knowledge? Life, for me, means more than simple 'straight do what you sense'. Wisdom and knowing affects it all, it's part of my life to know things. And if would have known that, certainly it would affect me in many ways.
You bring up irrelevant points to the discussion.
We weren't talking about wisdom and knowing, which obviously does affect you. We were talking about the idea that we are in a computer simulation, which you are helpless do do anything about.
Quote:
Actually I meant that 'real world' is what you want it to be
If that were true, then there would be no such thing as 'real' since everyone is different, and the world real would be meaningless.
So theres obviously a flaw in your understanding of the world real. It's a subjective term. When we say something is real we don't mean it is 100% absolutely no chance of it not being exactly what we think it is.
The real world is more of a collective understanding, that we base our lives upon. You don't sit there at your computer thinking "im not going to reply because none of this is real"
And no, that doesn't mean that if enough people think something it makes it real.
Quote:
And your imagination or conscience expands beyond your senses. If someone doesn't have imagination, he/she is not a living creature. It's just a robot with 'programmed' instructions. And he/she doesn't think in that case either. Just imagine, when you think, what do you do? Use your imagination!
Yes, I have an imagination.
Not relevant though.
The imagination is not synonymous with the soul.
And something can be alive without an imagination, it just isn't sentient. Trees are alive.
Quote:
And probably those who move things with their minds
same word
Quote:
Ok, picture this:
The creatures on the island, they say "the explanation with the satellite is dumb" because they never, for example, discovered atoms. And will probably discover it differently, since they are different creatures. In short, same as ourselves being different from God.
For example (as an analogy, it's not serious, but to make you understand my point), God uses 'magical satellites' to watch over us. Is that a reasonable explanation for us? No it isn't you'll say it's fairy tales. But it is reasonable for God.
Same with those isolated creatures. They would say the 'scientifical satellite' is fairy tale, and the 'magical satellite' is true, for example (depends on them). Is it different? just because you understand it doesn't mean it's the only true way. God probably 'understands' it (yeah, it's a metaphor, but I said it's not serious) and knows the magical satellite. So what if you don't? The creatures in that island don't understand your satellite as well. It's a good comparation.
Ok I've gathered, indirectly, that the satellites are a metaphor for god.
Despite your adding of the word 'magical', in our world, many people DO find god a reasonable idea. just look at you. you're not the only one either, most of the world believe in some religious figure.
Quote:
Btw I still don't understand how 1+1 = 2
of course i'm joking, but I want to tell you that 1 man perhaps can understand how God exists, while others (most) don't.. so? Let's suppose only 1 man can understand 1+1 = 2.. and others, because they are either dumb or ignorant, don't. So does that mean 1+1 = 2 is false because only one understands it, without showing proof (since he is too busy or simply cannot).
You're right, it doesn't mean that 1+1 doesn't equal too.
But if this man has proof that 1+1=2, he's had over 2000 years to tell it he probably would have come out of the closet by now
Quote:
Btw I know 1+1 = 2 is proof, but I meant it so from a different perspective, to compare it with 'proving' God's existence.
because one thing is true (1+1=2), another thing is not necessarily true as well (god).
Quote:
You're right
why, but god is all powerful and knowing, you cannot possibly understand him! why try to see from his perspective?
you have to accept that he is what people tell you he is, and move on, to prevent anyone digging up anything, say, discreditable to our lord
Quote:
No.
The human understanding of time is... I don't know what is it? You cannot know how and why time works or exists.
Same, you cannot know how and why God works or exists.
You seem to readily have faith in a story someone told you one day, but very little in the scientists our of society.
We can discover new things about our universe. It may be a sin, but whos counting.
Quote:
It's simple
Im glad
Quote:
Depends on 'happy' and on person. This was a subjective question of course.
Someone can be happy when he/she gets wise as well
True.
You can be
Just happy = happy
Happy + wise = happy
Just wise = SAD
see? happiness is the key.
if you were dumb as a nail yet happy as a lark you wouldn't be sitting around thinking "**** me im dumb, im so sad" because you'd be happy witth your situation.
Quote:
But it does answer it.. it simply doesn't expand it.
Of course god doesn't expand the question, but it doesnt answer it either.
'nothing moves without a prior mover'
then who moved god?
'no one shut up go away!!!!! you cannot understand god he created time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'
Quote:
Every answer has an infinite amount of other questions. You can keep on "why"-ing until the one who answers won't be answering anymore because he doesn't know. So, you can explain that "God" did that or God did this. But you can not expand this (like asking again "why did God do that?"). Why? Because it probably cannot be explained.
I thought god was the answer to everything?
Saying something cannot be explained.... now THAT is religion at heart perhaps the embodiment of god himself.
either it cannot be explained, or you just gave up too soon
Quote:
People have already been "why"-ing a lot. So metaphors were created for answering some of them. But you cannot go so to infinity. There will always be questions. Some of them cannot be answered in English. Because english is just a perception of our 'natural' world that we experienced. You haven't experienced Heaven or Hell yet, am I right? Or a world without time. So can you explain it?
No, questions were asked.
Religious people couldn't answer, so they say "god did it."
what about this
"god."
and this?
"god as well."
Quote:
Even if you did experience it, can you still explain it? Just, for the sake of it, explain to be a simulation of a world without time, for example.
The entropy of the world would be constant.
Nothing would be more or less disordered.
Quote:
You can't explain it. You can't explain different worlds. So why do you want to explain God? It's enough to know that He is there (if you believe that of course, I'm only trying to show you some examples).
For you maybe, but for most people, god IS the answer. to all questions that cannot be answered.
and how do you know he IS there?
Quote:
Now to get back to the simulation stuff.
Nah.
I've made my point on that subject a few times.
____________
John says to live above hell.
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted April 20, 2007 10:29 AM |
|
|
So now there IS a God after all.
He's probably pissed at you for making this thread, and taking his revenge.
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
|
|
posted April 20, 2007 03:05 PM |
|
|
yeah there is a god and he's annoying
to be honest i don't actually care much about religion in rl. its just here i post for the sport of it
but I was thinking, The Death, do you actually believe that there is a divine creator?
i can't find the quote but in one of your posts i remember you saying something like you believe that there is something that set everything into motion at the beginning.
do you believe that this thing has influence on our world today?
because i don't see 'something' starting off the universe as god.
God started off as a clear as day, bearded man sitting up in the clouds.
Now he's diminished to an abstract, incomprehensible idea that set the universe in motion.
from your post it sounds more like you believe in an idea about the origin of the universe.. looking for a reason behind it because you're not happy with the explanation given atm.
im just wondering. 
____________
John says to live above hell.
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted April 20, 2007 04:58 PM |
|
|
Quote:
but I was thinking, The Death, do you actually believe that there is a divine creator?
i can't find the quote but in one of your posts i remember you saying something like you believe that there is something that set everything into motion at the beginning.
Quote:
do you believe that this thing has influence on our world today?
Define influence...
If you can't feel, touch, see, hear or smell a thing, does it influence you? Probably not. But it does influence me. You see, not all people are interested only in their "brute-force and savage feelings" such as our five senses, and not all of them are ignorant. Why? Because we are not animals. But perhaps I should not even consider animals that way. Some animals are different than we think.
If I am perfectly rich like Bill Gates, for example, that WILL not make me happy alone, I am not ignorant of the possibilities of whatever I cannot grasp. I know it will make you happy. You don't care if someone 5000 miles away is doing something. You don't care if something from another world exists (not necessarily God). That makes you happy.
But I am not. Knowing about other worlds, for example, does affect my life. I see my life as something much more than what any animal would make of it ("feed, entertain, sleep").. Yes I do care about everything that doesn't interfere 'directly' on my five senses. I expand upon those primal insticts, that's what makes me 'happy'.
Quote:
from your post it sounds more like you believe in an idea about the origin of the universe.. looking for a reason behind it because you're not happy with the explanation given atm.
I am not looking for a reason. God may or may not have his reasons. I do not judge Him.
Also I see you're confused about "explaining God" on my previous post.
I said that everyone can keep telling "why"s until there is no 'rational' answer.
As you said, you can answer the questions.
"Why did that happen?"
"God"
"Why is there matter?
"God"
blablabla...
but that wasn't my point. This is not explaining God, this is only answering it with God. To explain God, you would further ask questions.
"Why did God create matter?"
"No idea, can't be explained. Same as you can't explain Aliens from a world without time what time is".
We cannot explain God. Explaining God means to explain Him, not the questions where God is the 'simple' answer. You may go on with some questions as I said, and explain them with metaphors.. but it is incomprehensible.
Do you know what time is? Do you know what God is?
Yes you can answer questions like: "Why is this world in motion over periods?"
"Because there is time"
this is not explaining time.
"What is time"
"..."
This would have been an answer explaining time, but since you cannot (or you might come up with stories) it cannot be explained 100%. I still don't see why you think God is different?
Also you also misunderstood the example with 1+1=2
here's a hopefully simpler one:
Person A starts explaining to Person B how God exists.
Person B cannot understand. Person C cannot understand as well, and thinks it is a story made by Person A.
Now, Person B starts explaining to Person A how "5x = 5" makes 'x' = 1.
Person A cannot understand (dumb at math). Person C, which is also dumb at math, thinks that this is a story as well.
How do you know I'm not an agent of the Aliens that created this simulation and wanted to test you, if you really figured out that you are in a simulation or not? As you did not believe me (and wasn't expected), or simply stated that you do not care if you are or not, I will inform my masters once they log me out of here of TitaniumAlloy's AI. And will further detail the analysis. We have created an ignorant AI in a fancy world with 'time' (you wouldn't even guess what it actually is ). interesting data... 
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted April 20, 2007 07:23 PM |
|
|
Perhaps, probably not in the "known God", but yeah something similar
And if someone didn't told you about mathematics or science, would you still be able to 'prove' or work in that environment (or whatever, I don't know the word).
good question btw
|
|
Colonel_here
Adventuring Hero
Descendant of Ghengis Khan
|
|
posted April 20, 2007 07:42 PM |
|
|
Archaeologists and historians have a saying that goes smothering along the lines of:
"Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack of"
I think that was one of the points TheDeath was trying to make. (Correct me if I am wrong)
Lack of evidence of God is not evidence of lack of God.
____________
"The job of saving the lives of those who are sinking is the task of those who are sinking" - Ostap Bender
"Only a fool fights a battle he knows he can not win" - Ghengiz Khan
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted April 20, 2007 07:43 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I think that was one of the points TheDeath was trying to make. (Correct me if I am wrong)
Lack of evidence of God is not evidence of lack of God.
Yeah that was one of my points, something like that
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted April 20, 2007 07:54 PM |
|
|
Quote:
If nobody told me anything, I will still believe that the sun is our creator.
I tought about that version myself, didn't heard it from anybody, it's just logical because the core of our planet tells me so.
Of course I never said that believing in God means to not respect the Sun, or nature. They are all 'children' of God for me. I also thought about my version of God (yes I am born christian, but I have my own 'feelings' since I believe God's teachings are a metaphor, see my posts). For me, logic means whatever our minds can process as rational. Yes indeed there are some irrational actions we do. And I usually meditate with my thoughts even if it's not about God. And I have a bit of a 'feeling' (no it's not the right word I know but  ) about all this, I doubt I learnt it from someone tho
btw I kinda like math
|
|
TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
|
|
posted April 21, 2007 04:16 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Define influence...
If you can't feel, touch, see, hear or smell a thing, does it influence you? Probably not. But it does influence me. You see, not all people are interested only in their "brute-force and savage feelings" such as our five senses, and not all of them are ignorant. Why? Because we are not animals. But perhaps I should not even consider animals that way. Some animals are different than we think.
Not influence you, but some people believe that god can reach down and make a car crash or someone die or give you a job promotion, or do something to change the physical world around you.
Do you think that god can do these things, or is he merely there to wind up the clockwork and watch what happens?
Quote:
If I am perfectly rich like Bill Gates, for example, that WILL not make me happy alone, I am not ignorant of the possibilities of whatever I cannot grasp. I know it will make you happy. You don't care if someone 5000 miles away is doing something. You don't care if something from another world exists (not necessarily God). That makes you happy.
Why do you think that being rich will make me happy?
I don't see the correlation, or where you got that from
Quote:
But I am not. Knowing about other worlds, for example, does affect my life. I see my life as something much more than what any animal would make of it ("feed, entertain, sleep").. Yes I do care about everything that doesn't interfere 'directly' on my five senses. I expand upon those primal insticts, that's what makes me 'happy'.
No, you understand that they may exist, but you don't act any differently.
You don't go to the supermarket and think "**** it this isn't even real i dont need to eat"
you go about your normal everyday life as you would if you didnt know
Quote:
I am not looking for a reason. God may or may not have his reasons. I do not judge Him.
Him?
I thought it was just a 'something'?
Quote:
Also I see you're confused about "explaining God" on my previous post.
I said that everyone can keep telling "why"s until there is no 'rational' answer.
As you said, you can answer the questions.
"Why did that happen?"
"God"
"Why is there matter?
"God"
blablabla...
but that wasn't my point. This is not explaining God, this is only answering it with God. To explain God, you would further ask questions.
"Why did God create matter?"
"No idea, can't be explained. Same as you can't explain Aliens from a world without time what time is".
We cannot explain God. Explaining God means to explain Him, not the questions where God is the 'simple' answer. You may go on with some questions as I said, and explain them with metaphors.. but it is incomprehensible.
God is just what we don't know.
God is what the prehistoric people didn't know, and they called it a god and were content.
God remains as what we still are yet to find out.
Also I see you're confused about "explaining what we don't know" on my previous post.
As you said, you can answer the questions.
"Why did that happen?"
"Dunno"
"Why is there matter?
"Dunno"
but that wasn't my point. This is not explaining what we don't know, this is only answering it with what we don't know. To explain what we don't know, you would further ask questions.
"Why don't you know why there is matter?"
"No idea".
We cannot explain what we don't know. Explaining what we don't know means to explain the unknown, not the questions where 'i dont know' is the 'simple' answer. You may go on with some questions as I said, and explain them with metaphors.. but it is incomprehensible
Quote:
Also you also misunderstood the example with 1+1=2
Of course.
Quote:
here's a hopefully simpler one:
lovely
my small brain finds it difficult
Quote:
Person A starts explaining to Person B how God exists.
Person B cannot understand. Person C cannot understand as well, and thinks it is a story made by Person A.
Sure, but how does Person A know how God exists?
You seem to have skipped that part
Quote:
Now, Person B starts explaining to Person A how "5x = 5" makes 'x' = 1.
Person A cannot understand (dumb at math). Person C, which is also dumb at math, thinks that this is a story as well.
yes, the same story as before. I got it the first time
Quote:
How do you know I'm not an agent of the Aliens that created this simulation and wanted to test you, if you really figured out that you are in a simulation or not?
I don't know that.
But I don't worship what I don't know either.
Quote:
As you did not believe me (and wasn't expected), or simply stated that you do not care if you are or not, I will inform my masters once they log me out of here of TitaniumAlloy's AI. And will further detail the analysis. We have created an ignorant AI in a fancy world with 'time' (you wouldn't even guess what it actually is ). interesting data...
I have already acknowledged the possibility.
You just don't seem to understand how little effect this knowledge can have one one persons life.
Quote:
And if someone didn't told you about mathematics or science, would you still be able to 'prove' or work in that environment (or whatever, I don't know the word).
It's not that hard to find mathematics by yourself.
You have a rock. You pick up another rock. You have 2 rocks.
Science and maths can be readily proven and its fundamental to our immediate world. No comparison really..
But religious people, even if no one told them, they may still think there is a god.
After all, someone had to do this in the beginning to start off the whole story, no?
Someone's gone, hey **** look at that big ball of flame that's a god. no, it's just burning hydrogen
or up there in the clouds theres ppl up there called gods who made us and they wont let us up there, no, just condensation
or the wind, thats a god. no, it's just the movement of air from low pressure to high pressure
or whatever. can't explain it, don't know = god.
I also look at religion as fear.
That would be the biggest selling point for me.
"worship me or i'll burn you for all eternity!"
damn that sounds pretty bad, maybe its worth it just to assure that that doesn't happen.
So you do everything the bible says, fearing that if you don't you will go to hell or won't go to heaven.
That's not living your life. That's cowering in fear of a man who 'loves you'. Are you doing it right? Have you done something wrong? What should you do now? Is there a god after all? Damn! Blasphemous thinking! Off I go to confession..
What a waste of a perfectly good life, because that person would already be living in hell.
Quote:
You like math?
Than prove that God exists or does not exist by math.
It's easy..
You say God exists. Why? Because you said so.
God does exist <==> You said so.
You indeed said so, So the second sentence = 1. (0=false 1=true)
That makes the first sentence automatically correct due to "<==>" symbol.
1=1, correct! You've proven that God exists.
I think that murder is is morally right. I think that George bush is a godsent messiah.
therefore:
murder is the right thing to do <==> i think george bush is our messiah
I think he is, So the second sentence = 1. (0=false 1=true)
That makes the first sentence automatically correct due to "<==>" symbol.
1=1, correct! Easy. God I love math.
____________
John says to live above hell.
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted April 22, 2007 02:36 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Why do you think that being rich will make me happy?
I don't see the correlation, or where you got that from
It was my assumption. You said you want to live the extra "400 years" or so given to have fun. With money you can have "material" things which usually make persons happy (knowledge,wisdom,imagination,etc are not material and cannot be "bought").
Quote:
No, you understand that they may exist, but you don't act any differently.
Are you sure I won't act differently? With my hands, or with my mind?
If you punch the wall, does that mean whatever made you do that was influencing you? Is that different than "thinking" about something with the mind instead of waving your hands or feet or whatever?
Quote:
You don't go to the supermarket and think "**** it this isn't even real i dont need to eat"
Why can't you eat something not real? It's not something bad at all.
Quote:
you go about your normal everyday life as you would if you didnt know
People these days always have that saying "normal everyday life", "normal family", etc.. What is normal anyway? Why isn't a 'delusional' criminal "normal" either?
Quote:
Him?
I thought it was just a 'something'?
Hey, it's a metaphor as well. It's harder for me to say 'it' because it sounds, well...
Quote:
God is just what we don't know.
God is what the prehistoric people didn't know, and they called it a god and were content.
And you call atoms the things that compose matter.
Quote:
God remains as what we still are yet to find out.
We have yet to find out time, parallel universes, etc..
why do you think our minds can understand something "from another world"?
Quote:
but that wasn't my point. This is not explaining what we don't know, this is only answering it with what we don't know.
Perhaps it's what we don't know.
You can explain physics as things happen over time but that is explaining what we don't know (i.e time). We don't know why the General Relativity says stuff like that. Why are there atoms? We don't know that. And we probably can't know.
So why do you think we can know God, apart from just the metaphors or "Why did that happen?" "God" questions?
Quote:
We cannot explain what we don't know.
No, but we can answer questions with stuff that we don't 'know'. The idea is not that we don't know, it's that we can't know precisely. We only understand metaphors. Again can you understand a completely different world? Or probably why (yes that's why, not how) the time behaves so (and bends as well), or why are we in a 3D world and not in 1D or 30000D? Why? Why do you think you can know God?
You can answer questions with stuff that we can't know. For example:
"How many dimensional axes define space in our world?"
"3D"
"Why?"
"Impossible to understand."
"Why is there a Universe?"
"Perhaps God created it"
"But why did He/She/It created it?"
"Impossible to understand."
Quote:
Sure, but how does Person A know how God exists?
But how does Person B know how 5x = 5?
Person B calls it logical in his opinion, because it's obvious.
Person A calls the existence of God 'logical' in his opinion, because it's obvious.
Quote:
I don't know that.
But I don't worship what I don't know either.
But that's why we're different in this aspect
Quote:
I have already acknowledged the possibility.
You just don't seem to understand how little effect this knowledge can have one one persons life.
Probably the same "normal" person as above.
There are other "pshycho" persons that probably are affected by this and not by other "primal insticts" as any animal (food, sleep, fun, etc.)
Quote:
It's not that hard to find mathematics by yourself.
For a football player? it usually is!
And for some people perhaps it's not hard to find a simple "God" by yourself (yes simple, just that he is a "He", etc.. and metaphors like that).
Quote:
You have a rock. You pick up another rock. You have 2 rocks.
You really lost me there! I thought the answer was 4 rocks
Also you cannot explain logical "complex numbers".
Yes of course math is based on certain "rules" (like multiplication rules, etc).
Why can't God be based on "rules" as well? (metaphoric rules of course). see a few paragraphs below.
Quote:
Science and maths can be readily proven and its fundamental to our immediate world.
That's exactly what makes them different -- the ability to interact with our five senses. And probably because you see immediate results. However, you cannot see immediate results from a Black Hole. Does it mean it doesn't exist?
Quote:
Someone's gone, hey **** look at that big ball of flame that's a god. no, it's just burning hydrogen
But what's Hydrogen? Ok, an atom with 1 electron.
What's an atom?
What's an electron?
Why does it burn?
Why does it spin around the orbit?
Why do protons attract electrons?
Why are neutrons neutral?
Why is there a 'weight' in an atom?
What is weight?
Why does it exist?
Why is there matter at all?
Quote:
no, it's just the movement of air from low pressure to high pressure
What's pressure?
Why does it exist?
... etc
Probably it can be seen. Or it's 'effects' can be seen. But are you absolutely sure that is the correct answer? Perhaps there's something more complex inside this 'pressure' explanation.
So the pressure above is not an explanation. Because it has around a 0.0000000...1% chance of being true. There is probably a much more complex method deep, that we don't care about (because we usually can't perceive it). You can't give explanations on Black Holes because you can't see inside. Does that mean they are false? Now comes the "faith in Black Holes", where's the Black Hole Bible?
So explanation is now just what we think it is? Then no scientific explanation is true at all, it seems. It's just a matter of the effects around us.
That doesn't make it true in from "universe's point of view".
Quote:
I also look at religion as fear.
That would be the biggest selling point for me.
"worship me or i'll burn you for all eternity!"
That is usually child's point of view
why do you love someone? what makes you not kill people (supposing you had the power and no one stopped you)?
There is Good, there is Evil.
You cannot know for sure why they exist.
The best metaphor I can come up with is that there are certain "rules" that must be followed. These rules are abstract, we don't know them. But they exist (of course it's a metaphor, I don't think it's fair to call it rule). For example, having the thought yourself of killing someone, or hatred, is reflected in your personality. With this you will choose Hell easily, because Heaven's not a place for you.
God is love. Why do you love? It depends on your actions or thoughts, minds, etc..
Let's suppose this scenario: You are a criminal, you kill someone and really like that. You love doing that. You are afraid of Hell. However you cannot be afraid of what you are. You are evil, you cannot be afraid of that. So why are you afraid of Hell?
The Pope says he can sell you a ticket for Heaven. You buy it to be safe.
Sorry but this God perspective is plain childish.
Or if you pray and have a cross, but hate that and you only do it to reach Heaven, even if you love killing people -- sorry you won't get to Heaven, it depends on your will, your thoughts, not only your false 'actions' so to speak. The "rules" I talked previously about are not based on your honesty or not -- it's like they know everything. (yes I said "it's like ..." because it's based on metaphors, but you probably are sick of reading that word, right? ).
You love killing people, you are suffering yourself -- why are you afraid of it (in Hell)? You do not love (in the general sense), you have no good intentions, you are the devil's puppet so to speak. You are suffering yourself -- you cannot go away from it. That is a metaphoric rule.
Quote:
I think that murder is is morally right. I think that George bush is a godsent messiah.
therefore:
murder is the right thing to do <==> i think george bush is our messiah
I think he is, So the second sentence = 1. (0=false 1=true)
That makes the first sentence automatically correct due to "<==>" symbol.
1=1, correct! Easy. God I love math.
I think 1+1=2, that makes it right as well
and that makes 1+1=4 false as well, contrary to Person A above.
|
|
executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
|
|
posted April 22, 2007 05:34 PM |
|
Edited by executor at 23:07, 22 Apr 2007.
|
Well I see many of you commiting a major um... error by saying "I won't believe because there are no proofs". If you have proofs then it is knowledge not belief. And faith is only about believing. You may call it blind, but faith simply cannot be non-blind.
A few comments I would like to add here:
1. God does not need our faith for anything. It is we who need faith. To not get lost in the universe around. Viewing into history you can see that religion evolves with civilization, and religions which did not keep up with civilization were displaced by others which ether did keep up or emerged later. An interesting thing is that anytime mass atheism arose in any particular society, it led to it's decline in the long term.
2. Religion is created by men. Yes that's (unfortunatelly) true. Even being a faithful christian myself, I always say that 99+% of my religion was created by men, despite even Christ himself being of divine nature. Even if there is a divine seed in the beginning, human limited mind would twist it in time. Thus religions need refreshment and changes.
3. All existence and actions need a cause(but not necesesarry a logical reason). Thus all matter needs a cause. We do not know whether space has 3, 4, or even 5764832906719678917691786715681976813768319473586819 dimentions. However, it needs a cause. The cause of ALL existence can only be God.
Even if this everything is an illusion, there is a mind that immaginates or projects it. Since it is obvious that I exist(because I think and I am aware of that), then if my existence is an illusion it is MY illusion. Then, if I am the only being to exist ever, I am God and I imaginate I am not (forgive me Lord for writing that).
4. This one is not as much interesting as above, but let it be: most people think "creationism OR BUT NOT AND evolution", so that only one can be a the same time, regardless of whether we talk about evolution of man, of life as we know it, or of enitre universe.
IMHO creationism=evolution, why not? It is an efficient way of creation . Evolution is bound be laws of physics(and other), so it will eventually lead to emerging of star systems, lifeforms, intelligent life, and maybe even something after.
5. I would like only to say that only people have faith, and that faith(be it any) is imprited on human mind, regardless what it exactly is. One can say that atheism is a counter-example. I think it is not. IMO atheism is a belief(if not religion), as it shares a common thing with it. Both are about believing not knowledge. Yes, atheist only believes in the non-existence of God, as he has no evidence that God does not exist. Exactly the same way a religious person believes in God. Blindly. Without evidence.
To be honest I must say I am not a good christian(as I do not support Church's opinion in many subjects and I do not perceive many actions of mine as sins even when Church does), but still I am deeply faithful, and I have never ever had doubts whether God exists or not in my whole life.
I hope that I will live to see a humanity with religion and science both not attacking each other and serving humanity. .
____________
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
|
|
Colonel_here
Adventuring Hero
Descendant of Ghengis Khan
|
|
posted April 22, 2007 05:53 PM |
|
|
I think what TheDeath is trying to say is along the following lines:
It is true that as human knowledge grows we begin to see God differently. However we need metaphors in order to comprehend God or atleast to try to. Lets say that our understanding is y=1/x function graphed in first quadrant. The x is the number of years humanity spent on earth and y is understanding of God with 0 being ultimate understanding.
Since the early humans did not have philosophy and other abstract concepts developed they understood God only through fancy tales and they made an image of God to comprehend more easily. As the human knowledge grew so did the understand of God. Now the abstract concepts are more understandable to humans so they can understand Z better but that doesn't mean completely.
It is like trying to teach elementary school children about integrals and derivatives. They won't get it because their mathematical understanding is not developed enough.
The second point TheDeath is making is that God is not what directly causes things to happen but rather what is behind all things. What is behind all the laws of universe. God could be the entity that immersed itself into creation of the universe. So god is final answer to all things.
____________
"The job of saving the lives of those who are sinking is the task of those who are sinking" - Ostap Bender
"Only a fool fights a battle he knows he can not win" - Ghengiz Khan
|
|
bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
|
|
posted April 22, 2007 09:34 PM |
|
|
the thing is that people see gods as a comfort. people need something to put all there worries to without ever begin thought badly. God is an agony aunt, basically, and is subscribed to everyone.
yes, we have heard bad things about people killing in the name of religion, but the majority of the population just turn to god for advice, because it gives them that most important of things.
hope
simple, honest, hope. if people didn't believe in something, then we would all commit suicide after a while, because the world is a harsh and brutal place without someone to help you.
the most vulernable, people who have nothing and are beaten down because of their race, sex, religion, job or creed need to turn to something to make them feel better. ultimately, Belief in god or in something is much better for the mind and the body than drug, booze or smoking.
yeah, there may be no proof that he exists, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't believe in him, because believe makes him exist in some way.
Quote:
I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. Q.E.D."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic."
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and white is black and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing. While most leading theologians believe this argument to be a load of dingo's kidneys, that didn't stop Oolon Colluphid making a small fortune when he used it as the central theme of his best-selling book, Well That About Wraps It Up For God.
thats what will happen if we prove that he does exist, using a babel fish or not.
____________
Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
|
|
executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
|
|
posted April 22, 2007 11:18 PM |
|
Edited by executor at 23:37, 22 Apr 2007.
|
Quote:
But still after all this explanation of you 3 guys togheter I do not see any logical points made of gods existance.
There are just too many errors in the logica,stories, books, reality and such things to say that we we're created by a god.
It sounds like some fairytale, story, folklore... Sorry.
I agree that there is no clear evidence that God exists. But is there any clear evidence that says He doesn't? The problem is that it will always be a matter of believing, not evidence.
The fact that we fail to see God's existence does not mean He does not exist. It means only that we fail to see Him, nothing else.
Edit: If I am correct the Death tries to tell you the same .
BTW, 'errors' you mentioned are effect of human actions and imperfect perception rather than God being non-existent.
____________
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
|
|
TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
|
|
posted April 23, 2007 03:54 PM |
|
|
Quote:
It was my assumption.
assume = ass out of u and me
lame i know
Quote:
You said you want to live the extra "400 years" or so given to have fun. With money you can have "material" things which usually make persons happy (knowledge,wisdom,imagination,etc are not material and cannot be "bought").
happiness
Quote:
Are you sure I won't act differently? With my hands, or with my mind?
Pretty sure. I mean in your everyday actions. Do you?
Quote:
If you punch the wall, does that mean whatever made you do that was influencing you? Is that different than "thinking" about something with the mind instead of waving your hands or feet or bwhatever?
If someone made you angry, then you could respond by punching the wall to release your frustration, which might have an effect on the situation.
Quote:
Why can't you eat something not real? It's not something bad at all.
Because you'll die. Pretty simple.
Quote:
People these days always have that saying "normal everyday life", "normal family", etc.. What is normal anyway? Why isn't a 'delusional' criminal "normal" either?
Normal as in what you do, normally.
A delusional criminal thinks he is normal, but compared to the general population, hes not. If the general population were cannibals, then a cannibal would be normal. weird huh
Normal is subjective, like real. But that kind of talk is for philosophers, not normal, real life
Quote:
Hey, it's a metaphor as well. It's harder for me to say 'it' because it sounds, well...
hey, its cool, its cool
Quote:
And you call atoms the things that compose matter.
Yep.
Any other random facts?
Quote:
We have yet to find out time, parallel universes, etc..
Yep.
Thanks.
Quote:
why do you think our minds can understand something "from another world"?
I have never said that.
Quote:
Perhaps it's what we don't know.
Well, a few people seem to think they know
Quote:
So why do you think we can know God, apart from just the metaphors or "Why did that happen?" "God" questions?
Well for a start I dont think that because I don't believe in god.
Quote:
No, but we can answer questions with stuff that we don't 'know'. The idea is not that we don't know, it's that we can't know precisely. We only understand metaphors. Again can you understand a completely different world? Or probably why (yes that's why, not how) the time behaves so (and bends as well), or why are we in a 3D world and not in 1D or 30000D? Why? Why do you think you can know God?
I don't believe in him.
I believe in something else. It's called the Zulu Hawk Pistol.
It created everything.
Can't be seen.
No evidence. Imossible to prove but I know he is there.
It's divine, yet we can't understand it.
It speaks to me. I pray to it. It's a give and take relationship. but anyway if I do what it says for my whole life I get to go to Haven, which is like the HOMM5 town, but way cooler. But anyway yeah you get to go there.
Do you believe me?
Quote:
You can answer questions with stuff that we can't know. For example:
What's the point
Quote:
"Why is there a Universe?"
"Perhaps God created it"
Now we're getting to the heart of things.
Person B is responsible
Quote:
But how does Person B know how 5x = 5?
Because he completely made it up (the values of x)
Quote:
Person B calls it logical in his opinion, because it's obvious
Person A calls the existence of God 'logical' in his opinion, because it's obvious.
.
It's obvious? How? What makes him feel that way?
See, I think he just completely made it up, just like person B over there
Quote:
But that's why we're different in this aspect
Because you devote your life to the unknown, and I devote my life to achieving happiness. Probably.
Quote:
Probably the same "normal" person as above.
Any person. how do you act differently with this knowledge? you seem to have skillfully avoided this question
Quote:
There are other "pshycho" persons
No one acts differently upon the acknowledgement of the possibility that we are in a computer matrix. No one.
Quote:
that probably are affected by this and not by other "primal insticts" as any animal (food, sleep, fun, etc.)
who isnt affected by food, sleep and fun?
Quote:
For a football player? it usually is!
So a football player cant pick up one stick, and then another and realize there is two?
Quote:
And for some people perhaps it's not hard to find a simple "God" by yourself (yes simple, just that he is a "He", etc.. and metaphors like that).
i know its not hard. it's actually very easy to blame things on god
thats fine though
Quote:
You really lost me there! I thought the answer was 4 rocks
But that's why we're different in this aspect [/
Quote:
Also you cannot explain logical "complex numbers".
Well clearly you can, otherwise you wouldn't know about them.
Quote:
Yes of course math is based on certain "rules" (like multiplication rules, etc).
Why can't God be based on "rules" as well? (metaphoric rules of course). see a few paragraphs below.
ah metaphors.
god love em
Quote:
That's exactly what makes them different --
the ability to interact with our five senses. And probably because you see immediate results. However, you cannot see immediate results from a Black Hole. Does it mean it doesn't exist?
Yes you can. You can see many immediate results from a black hole, such as the accretion disc, the rays emitted.
Come on, you can think of better examples than that
Quote:
But what's Hydrogen? Ok, an atom with 1 electron.
There we go. Answered our own question now haven't we.
What's a god? ****ed if I kno says the man who made the idea up on the spot but wasnt smart enough to finish the story
Quote:
What's an atom?
What's an electron?
Why does it burn?
Why does it spin around the orbit?
Why do protons attract electrons?
Why are neutrons neutral?
Why is there a 'weight' in an atom?
What is weight?
Why does it exist?
Why is there matter at all?
Oh I see, can't answer the question why is there matter, can't answer the question why is there god, there clearly is matter, so there clearly is god.
Or is there clearly matter?
Or is it all just an illusion?
Why is there an illusion?
Why are you asking these questions over and over to reiterate an old, irrelevant point?
Quote:
What's pressure?
Why does it exist?
... etc
Again.
You can keep asking why forever.
At some point we just have to say, **** it, it was god alright?
hence he exists.
there, i made a solid point, rather than just an allusion! it can be done
Quote:
Probably it can be seen. Or it's 'effects' can be seen. But are you absolutely sure that is the correct answer? Perhaps there's something more complex inside this 'pressure' explanation.
Maybe. 
Quote:
So the pressure above is not an explanation. Because it has around a 0.0000000...1% chance of being true.
Probably.
Quote:
There is probably a much more complex method deep, that we don't care about (because we usually can't perceive it).
No, we can't percieve it, so god did it.
Quote:
You can't give explanations on Black Holes because you can't see inside.
Oh so now you're the advocate for seeing is believing.
Quote:
Does that mean they are false? Now comes the "faith in Black Holes", where's the Black Hole Bible?
there are no such thing as black holes
otherwise they would be in the bible
the other name for which is the gospel, so its all true. clue is in the title
anyway all the planets revolve around earth.
Quote:
So explanation is now just what we think it is? Then no scientific explanation is true at all, it seems. It's just a matter of the effects around us.
No, there is nothing around us. Nothing is real.
Just give up and worship the almighty lord our saviour.
That doesn't make it true in from "universe's point of view".
What is a universe?
Universe doesn't even mean everything anymore
Real doesn't mean real anymore
Normal doesn't mean normal
hence god exists
or the zulu hawk pistol
Quote:
That is usually child's point of view
worshipping god to go to heaven? i think you'll find you are very wrong on that matter.
Quote:
why do you love someone? what makes you not kill people (supposing you had the power and no one stopped you)?
can all be attributed to the pursuit of happiness really
Quote:
There is Good, there is Evil.
Wrong.
You can't seriously believe that.
Quote:
You cannot know for sure why they exist.
Your motto
Quote:
The best metaphor
yay
Quote:
I can come up with is that there are certain "rules" that must be followed.
never was a fan of rules
Quote:
These rules are abstract, we don't know them. But they exist (of course it's a metaphor, I don't think it's fair to call it rule). For example, having the thought yourself of killing someone, or hatred, is reflected in your personality. With this you will choose Hell easily, because Heaven's not a place for you.
or i could just say to the big god up there that im sorry and will he please let me in so i can reap the rewards of eternal life
Quote:
God is love.
Okay. That renders MOST religion obselete.
Quote:
Why do you love?
you already asked that
Quote:
It depends on your actions or thoughts, minds, etc..
yep. btw you need a topic sentence
Quote:
Let's suppose this scenario: You are a criminal, you kill someone and really like that. You love doing that.
then god is murder, for that person?
Quote:
You are afraid of Hell. However you cannot be afraid of what you are. You are evil, you cannot be afraid of that. So why are you afraid of Hell?
The Pope says he can sell you a ticket for Heaven. You buy it to be safe.
He's good at that, isnt he
Quote:
Sorry but this God perspective is plain childish.
I think so too hahah.
That's why I found church quite amusing this sunday Yeah i was there
Quote:
Or if you pray and have a cross, but hate that and you only do it to reach Heaven, even if you love killing people -- sorry you won't get to Heaven,
how do you know?
you aren't god
you cant possibly understand him
maybe god loves killers, and christianity is a sick joke of his
this is not what the bible tells either.
Quote:
it depends on your will, your thoughts, not only your false 'actions' so to speak. The "rules" I talked previously about are not based on your honesty or not -- it's like they know everything. (yes I said "it's like ..." because it's based on metaphors, but you probably are sick of reading that word, right? ).
me? never.
Quote:
You love killing people, you are suffering yourself -- why are you afraid of it (in Hell)?
Deja vu
Quote:
You do not love (in the general sense), you have no good intentions, you are the devil's puppet so to speak.
thats a good movie
oh were not talking about Constantine?
@ executor
Quote:
Well I see many of you commiting a major um... error by saying "I won't believe because there are no proofs". If you have proofs then it is knowledge not belief. And faith is only about believing. You may call it blind, but faith simply cannot be non-blind.
Yes.
When will people stop saying that you need proof that something does not exist.
You cannot prove that everything that does NOT exist, well, does not exist. Impossible. You just have to use judgement.
No one said you have to have evidence for something to exist, either, it helps though.
Please read this, broken records.
Quote:
1. God does not need our faith for anything. It is we who need faith.
Some do.
Quote:
Viewing into history you can see that religion evolves with civilization, and religions which did not keep up with civilization were displaced by others which ether did keep up or emerged later.
by did not keep up, of course, you mean raped and pillaged?
and yes religion had to evolve, as more and more proof came out AGAINST it more and more religion that could be disproved was SHAVED AWAY until all thats left is some mysterious something that somehow did something that isnt even real anyway
Quote:
An interesting thing is that anytime mass atheism arose in any particular society, it led to it's decline in the long term.
would you care to back that up
what about all the religious societies that declined?
its not proportional.
Quote:
Religion is created by men. Yes that's (unfortunatelly) true. Even being a faithful christian myself, I always say that 99+% of my religion was created by men, despite even Christ himself being of divine nature.
How do you know he was of divine nature
Quote:
Even if there is a divine seed in the beginning, human limited mind would twist it in time. Thus religions need refreshment and changes.
as more technology comes out, yes
Quote:
All existence and actions need a cause(but not necesesarry a logical reason).
Logic not necessary in this thread.
Quote:
Thus all matter needs a cause. We do not know whether space has 3, 4, or even 5764832906719678917691786715681976813768319473586819 dimentions. However, it needs a cause. The cause of ALL existence can only be God.
Not true. Take The Deaths favourite example:
According to you, God needs a cause.
What caused god?
Quote:
Even if this everything is an illusion, there is a mind that immaginates or projects it. Since it is obvious that I exist(because I think and I am aware of that), then if my existence is an illusion it is MY illusion. Then, if I am the only being to exist ever, I am God and I imaginate I am not (forgive me Lord for writing that).
Thou art forviv'd. Just don't let it happen again, I don't want any of that you doing what you want stuff happening again.
-Zulu Hawk Pistol
Quote:
This one is not as much interesting as above, but let it be: most people think "creationism OR BUT NOT AND evolution",
only fools. unfortunately most people do fall under the catagory of foolish' so youre right.
Quote:
so that only one can be a the same time, regardless of whether we talk about evolution of man, of life as we know it, or of enitre universe.
IMHO creationism=evolution, why not? It is an efficient way of creation . Evolution is bound be laws of physics(and other), so it will eventually lead to emerging of star systems, lifeforms, intelligent life, and maybe even something after.
many religious people of the scientific community agree with this.
it doesnt leave much room for god though.
throw away the bible, perhaps?
Quote:
5. I would like only to say that only people have faith,
how do you know?
my monkey helper has faith
Quote:
and that faith(be it any) is imprited on human mind, regardless what it exactly is. One can say that atheism is a counter-example. I think it is not. IMO atheism is a belief(if not religion), as it shares a common thing with it. Both are about believing not knowledge. Yes, atheist only believes in the non-existence of God, as he has no evidence that God does not exist. Exactly the same way a religious person believes in God. Blindly. Without evidence.
I dislike people who treat atheism like a religion. yes, im a hypocrite. but i dont do this in rl. im allowed to here.
@ colonel_here
Quote:
I think what TheDeath is trying to say is along the following lines:
It is true that as human knowledge grows we begin to see God differently. However we need metaphors in order to comprehend God or atleast to try to. Lets say that our understanding is y=1/x function graphed in first quadrant. The x is the number of years humanity spent on earth and y is understanding of God with 0 being ultimate understanding.
Since the early humans did not have philosophy and other abstract concepts developed they understood God only through fancy tales and they made an image of God to comprehend more easily. As the human knowledge grew so did the understand of God. Now the abstract concepts are more understandable to humans so they can understand Z better but that doesn't mean completely.
It is like trying to teach elementary school children about integrals and derivatives. They won't get it because their mathematical understanding is not developed enough.
we can't understand god.
yeah, its another method they used to 'evolve' religion in order to make it less... 'disproveable'.
@executor
Quote:
I agree that there is no clear evidence that God exists. But is there any clear evidence that says He doesn't? The problem is that it will always be a matter of believing, not evidence.
The fact that we fail to see God's existence does not mean He does not exist. It means only that we fail to see Him, nothing else.
Edit: If I am correct the Death tries to tell you the same .
BTW, 'errors' you mentioned are effect of human actions and imperfect perception rather than God being non-existent.
here he goes again
____________
John says to live above hell.
|
| |
|
|
This Popular Thread is pages long: 
