|
|
TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
|
posted April 14, 2007 04:27 AM |
|
|
We don't know why yet, but that doesn't mean we should stop looking and attribute it to God. 
____________
John says to live above hell.
|
|
Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
|
posted April 14, 2007 06:33 AM |
|
Edited by Consis at 06:41, 14 Apr 2007.
|
Actually ....
I have been reading all of Ashrah's posts. I have also visited her personal page. All the people who have singularly responded to one of her specific attacks on religious people might try and consider this:
1. There is a certain logic to her logic.
2. There is a prevailing recurrent theme throughout the persona she has given us. (one of antithesis)
3. Her attacks (if you will please notice very carefully) are mostly directed toward the people behind the religiousness. And not any specific people--I'd say all people who make such claims. You might notice that she waits to actually attack you until you've come right out and said you are of some specific religious denomination. Until then and in between you might notice she'll simply give very general denouncing blanket statements (which betrays very little actual research on her theories).
4. The question should not be: "Why is she so anti-religious and atheistic?" But rather I think the question should be: "Why is she so focused on attacking the person behind the religion"?
5. Ask yourself why someone would be so angry toward people in that way. I really have to wonder and assume that she is not simply atheistic but also blatantly trying to cause harm.
6. Why would anyone want to cause harm on another person for any reason? I would offer that she herself was probably harmed in some way on a very deep and emotional level by someone (some person) who represents everything that she declares to "hate".
7. You will notice that the word "hate" is often used by her. I believe that hate is actually a secondary emotion. It is the natural human response to physical pain, psychological hurt, sadness, or fear. I believe anger and hatred to be some sort of psychological defense mechanism.
I submit that while her penalty was warranted .... it is also a clear message that she is hurting on the inside. Someone could have hurt her, broken a sacred trust, used her, or some other form of dehumanizing treatment for her to come to such an extremely harsh judgment. It is my guess that whoever did this to her represents everything she claims to despise. It's quite obvious to me that she is hurting. I don't, not for a single moment, feel insulted by her comments at all. I feel very sad and I wish I could give her a great big hug and tell her everything is going to be all right.
____________
Roses Are Red And So Am I
|
|
Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
|
|
posted April 14, 2007 06:59 AM |
|
|
Well ....
We are talking about God -- giving up on believing in God. I really think we can compare two people who don't believe in God: Khaelo and Ashrah. I feel that Khaelo always has some very valid, good, logical, and reasonably sound ideas. When Khaelo disagrees witht he usual fervor of the passing religious person it is always with an open mind. She may not agree but she'll certainly give what they are saying some serious thought. And you can easily see it in her posts all across this board and many others.
____________
Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
|
|
bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
|
|
posted April 14, 2007 10:05 AM |
|
|
@ ashrah
in some ways, yes, i do want to be a shaman for the fun of it, and in some ways, no, i want to be a shaman for serious reasons.
one of them is that alot of people who i got to know have died, and i want to communicate with them. my best friend, who died of huntingdons, my grandpa, hit by a car, and my cousins best friend, who was KIA. i want to communicate with them, because they were all close to me.
another is that i feel that humanity isn't respecting nature as much, and i want to respect it. i feel most at peace in a quiet glade, and it's a pity that that same glade was concreted to make a car park. i also feel that the world spirit is generally wounded, and i want to sooth it before something really bad happens.
Quote:
Quote:
Shamanism refers to a range of traditional beliefs and practices concerned with communication with the spirit world. Its practitioners claim the ability to diagnose and cure human suffering and, in some societies, the ability to cause suffering. This is believed to be accomplished by traversing the axis mundi and forming a special relationship with, or gaining control over, spirits. Shamans have been credited with the ability to control the weather, divination, the interpretation of dreams, astral projection, and traveling to upper and lower worlds. Shamanistic traditions have existed throughout the world since prehistoric times.
Shamanism requires specialized knowledge or abilities.
Do you have any specific knowledge or an initiation or are you just saying you are a shaman?
i can interprete dreams, only not very well ("you will met a handsome stranger, no wait, got it right this time, you will meat a hand and some strangers"). i do have out of body experiences, and i feel that i can communicate with spirits (though only ones i was close to, i can't communicate with Henry VIII). so in that respect, i am pretty pathetic at shamanism.
still, its what i enjoy doing, which is one of the major reasons for doing it.
Quote:
@bixie
Quote:
acutally, religion provides a solid base for most laws.
think of all the stuff in most constituions and laws, in britian, holland, belguim, germany, france (most of europe). fundalmental laws like "murder is a crime" and "theft is a crime" is derived from the ten commandments "thall shalt not kill" "thall shalt not steal". people may not use their religion as exact laws, but we use them as a base for most of our rules in modern society.
Don't be ridiculous man, religion didn't invent that killing and stealing was bad. These are basic morals that people have accepted and used it laws.
People didn't think that killing innocent people was GOOD until Moses came along. He just gave them another incentive not to.
i probably said that wrong, i should have said that the bible and the ten commandments are a good fundalmental laws because they are common human morals. i can be an idiot some times.
phew, this is a long post for me!
____________
Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted April 14, 2007 01:16 PM |
|
|
Quote:
one of them is that alot of people who i got to know have died, and i want to communicate with them. my best friend, who died of huntingdons, my grandpa, hit by a car, and my cousins best friend, who was KIA. i want to communicate with them, because they were all close to me.
another is that i feel that humanity isn't respecting nature as much, and i want to respect it. i feel most at peace in a quiet glade, and it's a pity that that same glade was concreted to make a car park. i also feel that the world spirit is generally wounded, and i want to sooth it before something really bad happens.
I am sorry to hear that...It's hard to let go of the people that mean something to you and the respect for nature is admirable in any way you can put it. It's not easy to make a difference but sticking to your beliefs is the first step.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
|
|
posted April 14, 2007 01:27 PM |
|
|
i never said it was.
shamans don't dabble in magic (you have party magicians for that). its more about communing with spirits. be they of nature, the dead, or of christmas (never met 'em!) its all about communing with them and having a respect for them.
____________
Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted April 14, 2007 01:36 PM |
|
|
It all depends on what you believe that happens after we die. Assuming they remain around for some time it could be possible that they can contact us. I cannot say either way, when I find out it will be too late...
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted April 14, 2007 01:41 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Nature isn't "magical" it's something natural.
Nature is in fact the only magical thing around.
It is perfect. Plain and simple. I wouldn't call it 'magical' in the common sense, but in a sense of deep respect and love...
Besides, the definition of "magical" is - something people cannot understand. I believe nature pretty much fits that description. It's complicated yet simple, it's pure yet defiled, it's harmless yet unstoppable. Magic.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
|
|
posted April 14, 2007 02:13 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Nature is in fact the only magical thing around.
It is perfect. Plain and simple. I wouldn't call it 'magical' in the common sense, but in a sense of deep respect and love...
Besides, the definition of "magical" is - something people cannot understand. I believe nature pretty much fits that description. It's complicated yet simple, it's pure yet defiled, it's harmless yet unstoppable. Magic.
Perfect? Harmless? Unstoppable?
Not words I would use to describe nature.
We are part of nature, no? (oh I forgot, we're gods creatures). If we are part of nature, then your post doesn't make sense, because you speak in terms relative to the observer (humans), but humans are just another aspect of nature itself. (And with no more soul than that rock or tree, for that matter)
____________
John says to live above hell.
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted April 14, 2007 02:41 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Perfect? Harmless? Unstoppable?
Not words I would use to describe nature.
Care to elaborate?
Quote:
We are part of nature, no? (oh I forgot, we're gods creatures). If we are part of nature, then your post doesn't make sense, because you speak in terms relative to the observer (humans), but humans are just another aspect of nature itself.
I explained that in the Nature thread. People find themselves above nature. They use words like "animal", "pig", "cow" etc as an insult, for example. We have shunned nature aside and tried to play gods. For this, we have degenerated into creatures full of misery, pain, hatred and misunderstanding, with just so much sense of hapiness here and there so that we all just don't commit suicide. We did not want to be an equal part of nature, we wanted to rule it, and that came with a price. Our insanity leads us to destroy our surroundings and exterminate each others in brutal displays of mindless, inexplainable hatred. All that so that we get a feeling of power; and for a place in history, since everyone just wants to prolong the memory of their pathethic and miserable lives.
That is our curse, and our punishment for abusing our mother nature. Call it cosmic justice if you want.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
|
|
posted April 14, 2007 03:03 PM |
|
|
Well there are many instances where nature is the opposite of those things.
I wouldn't call extreme weather harmless, and nature can be tamed in some aspects, like preventing plant growth, so that's not really unstoppable, and it's far from perfect. If nature is what happens when it is left undisturbed (kind of hard to define, what can disturb it?), then we are natural, and correct me if I'm wrong but you'd be the first person to say that WE aren't perfect.
But you could argue that nature is simply destroying itself.
lol. im confused now
____________
John says to live above hell.
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted April 14, 2007 03:45 PM |
|
Edited by baklava at 15:52, 14 Apr 2007.
|
Quote:
I wouldn't call extreme weather harmless
Ok, perhaps not THAT harmless 
Technically, you're right, but overall humans have harmed the planet much more than nature did.
Quote:
nature can be tamed in some aspects, like preventing plant growth
You can't prevent plant growth forever. And even if you prevent plant growth; tinier organisms like bacteria will settle around. Or mushrooms. Basically life is everywhere. And most other things in nature are unstoppable. You cannot stop the seasons or any other cycles for example.
Quote:
kind of hard to define, what can disturb it?
Nuclear explosions, ozon holes, forest fires...?
It is however so strange that we are the only specie that evolved to be more 'intelligent'. I mean, of all the species on Earth, just us... That seems completely weird.
I'm kinda confused with all this too.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
|
|
posted April 14, 2007 03:47 PM |
|
|
You can stop some things temporarily, which means you can stop nature
lol arguing for the sake of the argument now, getting off topic
____________
John says to live above hell.
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted April 14, 2007 06:07 PM |
|
|
@TA: Yes we can never know if we are in a simulation/virtual world whatever. Or if there is a God. Or if science is really "real" and not just a dream. We can never know.
However some people have this 'feeling' (no it's not instict), such as myself for example, and truly 'believe' in something (by the way, what do you call 'believe' in something? something that you know is there, like a computer, you know it, or something that you have faith in it, without knowing it 100%?). And should I go deeper, we know as little about science-stuff as about God.. Why are atoms small? Why do they spin? Why are the laws of physics (that we define) that way? Or why is there a God? Or why not?
The idea is, you never know anything at all. So if people believe in God, on a philosophical scale, it's the same thing as believing everything else. The colors, green for example, why is it like that? Or why are we in a virtual world, or why not? I don't think you understand me, but I really don't know how to explain it better.
Now let's suppose there is a God. Why do you have to 'see' him to be confident that he/she/it exists? Why do you need to have radiations in your eyes to actually believe in him? Perhaps that's how you are, and perhaps that's why I'm different, each one is different.
In fact, from a philosophical point of view, all of us are doing "blind faith". But to put it another way, there is no blind faith, simply because everyone is doing it. You have faith in the fact that there is no God (yes, you believe in that). I have faith that there is a 'creature' that created this world (including Nature) and that's why I'm showing respect.
Put it this way: imagine you created genetically some creatures similar to humans, and isolated them on an island (alone, without any human intervention). And you viewed their actions through a sattelite. You'll see them starting wars (since they are 'human-like') between religions, some of them inventing Gods, some of them not believing that someone (you) created them at all (atheists), that they appeared through some weird evolution or anything else, just to explain that they are the supreme creatures that do not need to show any respect to anyone else but themselves and what they perceive. Or some of them who really believe that someone is up there (in this case you), and they should show some respect, or anything like that.
Also what is 'time'? Why is it 'flowing'? Why? The fact is that you never know, and you'll never know. But that doesn't mean you can't believe in a 'theory' or have faith in your religious-perceivement of time (this time I'm talking about time, not God).
An example (not real): If I believe in a theory about this world (how it was created), I am not doing more blind-faith than you ignoring everything you cannot perceive. Hope you understand it now. Sorry for such a long description, I don' know how to describe it better.
@Ashrah: Some people do not live only to have fun and that's why probably they believe in a God. You simply cannot know many things in this world, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. And that doesn't mean people can't believe in them either.
Why is time, well... the 'time' we know?
you can't know
btw: if you read my above description, imagine yourself in that isolated island.. Now some people might have said: "Well we were created by TitaniumAllow and put here, blablabla".. You would start attacking them: "What childish views, etc".. Simply you cannot know many things, and believing in something that you cannot know is by no means a disease or plague.. Why isn't science or proofs a plague as well? Just because you 'understand' them? Probably I don't, but I understand God.. see what I'm saying?
It's like I come attacking you about "Infidel, you are diseased that you do not believe in God", or similar things. To be wise means to understand more than what every "animal" would.
Let's set it another way. Suppose someone offered each one of us another 400 years of living (in an ideal world of ours). What would you do with that?
1) Have fun
2) Have fun and feel well yourself
3) Get wise, understand, and believe in things
4) Get wise, understand and believe in things, and do GOOD and help/respect other things than yourself (this includes not-from-this-world imaginary thoughts)
Personally I would go for 4.
By the way, how do you know there is no God?
I know because I feel it, and I respect whatever gave life to this Universe.
Also for anyone who thinks "who created God".. well, there is no "before" God, because God created time and such you cannot even imagine a world without time, or 3D space, or whatever else you see. That's why you can't understand God. Don't get me wrong, no one can understand God. No one can understand anything beside this world with precision. However that does not mean we cannot believe in that or respect it. But that's just me, feel free to think in a different way.
But don't you think that the world was created or 'appeared' with a reason? Why do you ignore this fact until you 'see' it? Being ignorant is the opposite of being wise, if I recall correctly.
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted April 14, 2007 08:26 PM |
|
Edited by Elvin at 20:26, 14 Apr 2007.
|
Hmm many people can be ignorant without meaning they are not wise in their own way. People cannot or do not understand everything yet some who show an understanding for a specific field or real life matters is considered wise. They may be ignorant in everything else.
I agree with your points as we truly cannot know how all things are or perceive them from all possible angles. We try to reach perfection God existing or not but we stumble around in the dark, hampered by our limitations.
I guess believing in an entity that has not shown itself can be considered blind faith but there is more to it.
It's a way of life, cherising what you have and live along with others which as long as you follow it, it matters little who is right because the fact that you believe has enriched your life.
No need to follow everything a religion cites either because it can lead to more harm than good. In this respect Ashrah is correct but she seems to consider only the bad parts. And even if a religion is not imposed on us we may feel insecure, afraid and wrong not to follow it but that's where free will comes in. If you have had a decent education and know what is right in your heart you will know what to do.
After all if what the religion says does not become you, why believe in the first place? You can find something that suits you but also has a positive influence on the world which portrays your inner self and confirms you. What you believe was in your heart in the first place, you just gave it a name. Or you have allowed it to become part of your heart and guide you.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted April 14, 2007 09:03 PM |
|
Edited by TheDeath at 21:06, 14 Apr 2007.
|
Quote:
Thedeath, I know god doesn't exist because the stories come from a age were werewolves, minotaurs and other such fantasy-creatures were thought to exist. Many stories were writhen these days, including the whole bible, which is based on law and visions and dreams.
So eh, how do you know those stories aren't true? (jokin')
How do you know that, when you wake up in the morning, you're not dreaming, and when you actually dream you're in reality?
Quote:
And you can feel god? I guess that's between your ears, you want to feel him so badly that you get illusions of his voice/whatever.
Feelings are not necessary based on the five senses (like hearing or seeing). When you dream for example, sometimes you don't remember a thing the next day.. but somehow know some things related to the dream, even if they only symbolize that in a different manner. (like when you close your eyes and use your imagination for example).
Also it happened a lot to me to 'dream' about a specific place and moment in my life, and exactly when it happened afterwards (within a few days usually), only THEN I remembered it as a "blurring" symbol, not a simple image. And yes this is what I feel, I don't know if you can understand it.
The idea behind a 'proof' is that "most" people can understand it. However even then most think differently. For example, everyone uses imagination to accomplish tasks, this is why we think. Even if something is 'proof' when someone uses that particular knowledge they use their imagination. And it is different, even if in English it sounds the same. Same with God, only that there is no 'common language' to speak about it (so there is no apparent illusion of the same thing).
Prove 1+1 = 2
Yes it can be proven in English and 'sounds the same' as a proof by any other human, however each one when doing the proof for themselves or reading the other proof uses his/her imagination, and that is different than anyone else -- which is like a belief in your imagination and out-of-this-world stuff (imagination is not material).
That's not much different than believing in "supernatural" things. The only difference is that there is no common 'language' between them (i.e visual signals or whatever). But if you did not have imagination, you wouldn't be conscious, and would you still be 'living'?
Again the feelings are not biologically like pain or fear. If I made any nonsense about english wording my phrases then I am sorry
EDIT: Also hopefully this scenario is better:
Let's suppose you have a virtual world in a machine, where you put a helmet on and then you start to be in the virtual world (like in The Matrix movie).. is that different from the real world? is it? even though it can have Werewolves or anything else for that matter (since probably that virtual world was designed like this)?
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted April 14, 2007 09:10 PM |
|
|
@Ashrah
I wonder how you can jump to conclusions so easily I neither spoke of punishment nor disliking. I knew one with whom we would talk on friendly terms. But one of my shortcomings even if I respect them is that I don't feel too comfortable around them.
If you feel I don't deserve your respect so be it. I never knew you had any respect for me in the first place
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted April 14, 2007 09:27 PM |
|
|
Hm, TheDeath already said everything I wanted to say...
Nice dude, you spared me some writing.
Just one more thing:
Quote:
Thedeath, I know god doesn't exist because the stories come from a age were werewolves, minotaurs and other such fantasy-creatures were thought to exist.
Well bathrooms come from that period too, does that mean we should all crap in diapers? You understimate the people from times past. They had philosophy which is hard to comprehend today but that doesn't mean it didn't make sense. Try and read something from the period of ancient Greece; or Rome (though I personaly dislike Rome); or Babylon. People then were FAR from being stupid. And most of the myths you referred to were written as metaphores; and indeed very little Greeks really thought Minotaur truly existed. You see, they could separate metaphores from lies. You should really start to practice that too.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
Colonel_here
Adventuring Hero
Descendant of Ghengis Khan
|
|
posted April 14, 2007 09:38 PM |
|
|
I would agree that most religious stories are written as metaphors. The Biblical stories could be read literally and than that would be just set of stories however they do have a deeper meaning if you look into the metaphors. For this reason I would suggest looking into Koran as it is one of the sacred texts that tends to explain the metaphors it uses more than any other sacred book.
____________
"The job of saving the lives of those who are sinking is the task of those who are sinking" - Ostap Bender
"Only a fool fights a battle he knows he can not win" - Ghengiz Khan
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted April 14, 2007 09:40 PM |
|
|
Quote:
baklava a toilet is something you can touch, feel...
again you limit yourself to your five senses.
By the way, in Matrix movie you could touch, you got pain etc.. but you were only in a Virtual world (I mean the characters etc..)
I hope you can make the analogy with God's existence.
Yes we can 'touch' God with our minds, by the way.
|
| |
|
|
This Popular Thread is pages long: 
