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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted May 25, 2009 05:45 PM |
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Is cruel bad then? Why is cruel bad? Just because humans don't like being a victim of cruelty?
Well, saying God is cruel means God isn't benevolent, so why have Satan in the first place?
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 25, 2009 06:00 PM |
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Elodin:
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Energy can't be created or destroyed in the closed systm of the universe. The second law of thermodynamics requires the univers to have a beginning.
Wait. These two statements contradict each other.
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My concept at least does not contradict science unlike the idea of an eternal universe
How does it contradict science? If matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed, and they exist, therefore they must have always existed.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Totoro
Famous Hero
in User
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posted May 25, 2009 06:19 PM |
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Edited by Totoro at 18:20, 25 May 2009.
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Well, saying God is cruel means God isn't benevolent, so why have Satan in the first place?
Why God couldn't be benevolent? If a father doesn't give candy to a crying baby that doesn't necessarily mean that he is evil, even though the baby sure thinks so. Just place humans in the position of the baby.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted May 25, 2009 06:25 PM |
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But in this instant the father beats the baby. A cruel God doesn't deny benefits, a cruel God strikes down.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted May 25, 2009 06:32 PM |
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It's simple really. If something creates something good/positive it has to have something bad/negative to give it's counterpart a meaning. If nothing bad existed, all the good things would loose it's meaning and become neutral. If the kid don't want candy, the absence of candy wouldn't be bad. It would also counter tha happyness of having candy.
Everything needs a counterpart to have a meaning. Something good can't exist without something bad, and even if it did, it wouldn't be good, from a human point of view.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 25, 2009 06:47 PM |
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If something creates something good/positive it has to have something bad/negative to give it's counterpart a meaning.
Not at all. It can be contrasted with an absence of something.
For example, would you say that if muggers stopped mugging, people would not understand the value of getting money? I wouldn't. There's a difference between, say, getting $20, getting nothing, and losing $20 - and if you couldn't lose $20, there'd still be a difference between getting $20 and getting nothing, if you understand my analogy.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted May 25, 2009 06:51 PM |
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Yes, but then it's the absence of money that is the negative counterpart.
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Totoro
Famous Hero
in User
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posted May 25, 2009 06:51 PM |
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But in this instant the father beats the baby. A cruel God doesn't deny benefits, a cruel God strikes down.
Tell me what is the benefit then? A good taste of a candy right now and then want some more and more when the baby becomes addicted to sweets and eventually becomes fat and later becomes a subject of bullying in school?
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted May 25, 2009 06:52 PM |
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@mvass
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If matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed, and they exist, therefore they must have always existed.
Come on, mvass, obviously the guy is an expert in quantum thermodynamics. I don't understand why you would find fault with such a compelling argument.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted May 25, 2009 06:52 PM |
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No, I mean to say that daddy stops beating his children! 
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Totoro
Famous Hero
in User
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posted May 25, 2009 06:54 PM |
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Edited by Totoro at 18:55, 25 May 2009.
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Beating can, in some occasions, be beneficial.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 25, 2009 07:01 PM |
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Shares:
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Yes, but then it's the absence of money that is the negative counterpart.
Yes, but then it's different. Think of two different situations:
Father gives candy vs. Father doesn't give candy vs. Father beats
or
Father gives candy vs. Father doesn't give candy
Which category does God fall into? I'd say it's the first, if one accepts the idea that God controls Satan.
Corribus:
It's a heated subject.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Kraken
Famous Hero
I just love being elemental
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posted May 26, 2009 03:29 AM |
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Totoro, yuo can't just keep saying that God is a power and Satan is another, because then it sounds like Barack Omabam and John McCain using their laserz and creating pittsburgh out of Jello and tomato sauce, It doesn't make sense!
And another thing, I am an Atheist like all of the others on this thread, I hate the concept of Religion and God and Churches and stuff, and I'm one of the most cheerfull guys on the planet, so not all Atheists are souless lifeless chumps
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Vini Vidi Vici
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 26, 2009 05:29 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 05:33, 26 May 2009.
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Elodin:
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Energy can't be created or destroyed in the closed systm of the universe. The second law of thermodynamics requires the univers to have a beginning.
Wait. These two statements contradict each other.
Not at all.
The second law of thermodynamics builds on the first. It says that although there is a constant amount of energy in a given system that is merely transforming into different states, that energy is becoming less usable. The universe is "winding down." Running out of usalbe energy. That is called entropy. So the universe could not be eternal. It had a First Cause. God.
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Because he's cruel?
No, God is not cruel. Lucifer chose to become an evil being.
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I hate the concept of Religion and God and Churches and stuff
So you are of the anti-theist brand of the atheist religion.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted May 26, 2009 05:44 AM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 05:49, 26 May 2009.
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But even without time, he must have been created out of anything, no matter how much time that lasted.
Do I sense a circular reasoning here?
Without time... no matter how much time it lasted... is impossible logic.
And I never said that the "God created time" is proof for God. At ALL. It is others, however, who misinterpret it and use that as arguments AGAINST the existence of God. I'm not trying to "prove" God by saying he created time, I'm just refuting the claims made against.
Mind you, I have no IDEA how it is without time, so I'm not exactly claiming it that I know how it is.
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Umm... yeah my point is that God couldn't create a time if there wasn't any time, and how can he crate matter and time if there was nothing in the Universe? The Law of the Universe (one of em') Is that matter cannot be created nor destroyed, only transformed.
Sorry but with that logic (assuming God created the universe as it is written), he would have created the "laws" as well.
God can create something out of nothing the same way you can "create" polygons in a 3D simulation software out of nothing -- at least as far as the entities inside the simulation are concerned  (yes that's us here )
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I just say that having a phd doesn't necessarily mean much. I also have a friend of mine who never had a diploma from a university, and yet his understanding was way above an ex office mate that I had who got a phd.
BTW the thing with "The Universe is contracting into another Big Bang" makes as much scientific sense as religion. There is absolutely no evidence suggesting the Universe is slowing down its expansion, in fact, it is accelerating based on that data which means the complete OPPOSITE is happening.
Or, if the data is interpreted wrong (redshifts for example) which I believe to be the case, the Universe may be stationary (but then what about the Big Bang?), but most likely another Big Bang will NOT occur -- unless you have a hypothesis, but that is as backed up as religious opinion would be.
Frankly I think you're in the religious camp, with this "belief" of a contracting Universe It always amazes me that people immediately jump at God for there being no evidence, but in this case, when the evidence actually suggests the opposite of what you 'believe', no one even pointed it out.
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 26, 2009 05:51 AM |
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Elodin:
Quote:
The second law of thermodynamics builds on the first. It says that although there is a constant amount of energy in a given system that is merely transforming into different states, that energy is becoming less usable. The universe is "winding down." Running out of usalbe energy. That is called entropy. So the universe could not be eternal.
Unless entropy resets during every Big Bang.
Death:
It's true that the universe is expanding at the moment - but, due to the law of conservation of energy, it'll have to contract at some point.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Kraken
Famous Hero
I just love being elemental
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posted May 26, 2009 09:16 PM |
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Sorry but with that logic (assuming God created the universe as it is written), he would have created the "laws" as well.
Umm... no just no. God couldn't have created any laws out of nothing. Your trying to say apples are oarnges or something. YOU HAVE NO PROOF OF THis. 
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Vini Vidi Vici
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted May 26, 2009 09:39 PM |
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Quote:
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Sorry but with that logic (assuming God created the universe as it is written), he would have created the "laws" as well.
Umm... no just no. God couldn't have created any laws out of nothing. Your trying to say apples are oarnges or something. YOU HAVE NO PROOF OF THis.
Neither do you, so quit moaning and bring up real arguments.
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Totoro
Famous Hero
in User
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posted May 26, 2009 10:16 PM |
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Edited by Totoro at 22:17, 26 May 2009.
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Totoro, yuo can't just keep saying that God is a power and Satan is another, because then it sounds like Barack Omabam and John McCain using their laserz and creating pittsburgh out of Jello and tomato sauce, It doesn't make sense!
Dear Kraken,
You must understand that when I make statements of belief, they are merely belief of my own. I could write a reminder of it in the end of every post of mine or put it in my signerature. However, I think that would be of bad taste.
You can try to belie my statements if you want while I try to gain emotion of victory by creating a logic out of my statements, and winning debates, which strenghtens my confidence.
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Kraken
Famous Hero
I just love being elemental
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posted May 27, 2009 12:21 AM |
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Quote:
Dear Kraken,
You must understand that when I make statements of belief, they are merely belief of my own. I could write a reminder of it in the end of every post of mine or put it in my signerature. However, I think that would be of bad taste./quote]
God point, I'm just going to stop posting on this thread and there is proof of no God. I will post a few Links.
Here
Here
And...here
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Vini Vidi Vici
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