|
|
bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
|
posted June 21, 2009 11:38 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
A cat is a mammal, but a mammal isn't necesarrily a cat.
Rhinoceros
Logician: a cat has four paws.
old gentleman: but so does a dog.
logician: then it must also be a cat.
old gentleman: seems logical. 
Yeah I've heard that reasoning before in a danish novel called Erasmus Montanus. Erasmus Montanus is lecturing his Granny in the way of science:
"Does a rock fly? No. Does granny fly? No; then granny is a rock." When she then began crying he quickly said: "Does a rock talk? No. Does Granny talk? Yes; Then granny isn't a rock."
My point is: does a cat mew? Yes. Does a dog mew? No, it barks; then a dog isn't a cat.
yeah.
you've got to love absurdism because, sometimes and completely without irony, it makes the most sense.
____________
Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 21, 2009 05:29 PM |
|
|
Yeah, LaVeyan Satanism basically is Nietzsche's philosophy plus a bit of symbolic ritual and "magic".
I agree with some of what Nietzsche said. I disagree with a lot of other stuff. Ayn Rand > Nietzsche, IMO.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted June 21, 2009 05:47 PM |
|
Edited by TheDeath at 17:48, 21 Jun 2009.
|
I'm not exactly that sure where to put Ayn Rand but I think 70% I would put her under Nietzsche in the quality category. Not because she was bad at writing or anything (I really don't care about that), but because Nietzsche was at least a bit more honest about human nature 
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 21, 2009 05:50 PM |
|
|
Hmm... Ayn Rand and Nietzsche didn't really disagree much about human nature, I don't think. And she was definitely influenced by him. But, fortunately, she is much more rational and doesn't subscribe to the stupid "women are cows" and "we should live in the wilderness, away from everybody else" ideas.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 14, 2009 11:19 PM |
|
|
Lately I find myself wondering whether we haven't been victim of a big propagada coup. Looking at how things are working and considering that the snake is considered the symbol for wisdom and medicine in lots of cultures (while the serpent is that of chaos), I'm asking myself whether god may have been the dictator, the mad scientist-creator, arrogant and sure that all was his, while Lucifer maybe was an angel - one of god's lieutenants - who rebelled against that reign of brutal authority, keeping people dumb - but without success. Lucifer just lost and was exiled, and god went on to torment his people.
I mean, before someone feels offended, if you read the first part of the Bible and you have no idea about god and you assume that god is just a title for a very big ruler like emperor - wouldn't you think, man, we could have done with less blood, less destrcution and less strange rules, less slavery and less inequality and a lot less of a lot more.
And look at Jesus and his fate. You might think there would have been an easier, less bloody way to redeem humanity, like, speaking the word, for example. Sacrificing the own son is somehow cruel, one is tempted to say. Why did it have to be so cruel? So that people remember? Couldn't they have remembered something really beautiful? I mean, it's not that his waking from the death was a public thing.
So what if Lucifer went the way of all losers? History is written by the winners isn't it? Is there a Book Lucifer? What would we read there? "I was one of the Angels and since we could mate with humans I wanted them to have more rights, but the boss wouldn't have none of that, so I incited them to disobey. Man, was god pissed about it! My fault, certainly, but I paid the price being exiled into the bowels of the earth, never to see the light again. Now I'm blamed for every human error and every cruelty done in god's name!"
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted July 14, 2009 11:22 PM |
|
|
Why, oh, why, did you have to revive this thread, JJ?
WHY???? ARE YE MAD????
To quote Kookastar: "DohGah!!!" 
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted July 15, 2009 12:08 AM |
|
|
Quote:
I mean, before someone feels offended, if you read the first part of the Bible and you have no idea about god and you assume that god is just a title for a very big ruler like emperor - wouldn't you think, man, we could have done with less blood, less destrcution and less strange rules, less slavery and less inequality and a lot less of a lot more.
I find it ridiculous to take so many assumptions of "the whole deal" when you and I are lacking data or just about any overview of this "deal". At least most atheist philosophers and scientists are honest and answer "don't know if God exists at all" instead of saying "I know a better way for God to act". Geez. Next time let your 2 year old dictate your life if he says so alright?
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted July 15, 2009 12:53 AM |
|
|
@JJ
You are free to dream up any God you want. But don't say he is the God described in the Bible. Heck, you can even write your own holy book. Call yourself the first prophet of your new religion if that makes you happy.
Oh, and it is not God Junior who died on the cross. It is God existing as a man.
Quote:
1Jn 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted July 15, 2009 01:12 AM |
|
|
Quote:
You might think there would have been an easier, less bloody way to redeem humanity, like, speaking the word, for example.
Jesus, uhm, tried to speak the word. That's why they nailed him to a wooden plank.
Been a while since I read the Bible but if I recall correctly, God didn't betray, imprison, crucify or kill Jesus. It was, uhm, us. The people. The humanity which he tried to convince not to kill each other.
But yeah, it would've been easier if it was just God. Sure would put a lot of guilt off our shoulders.
Or is it all an elaborate God's hoax? Were all those people - are we all - mindless marionettes that have no other choice but obey everything that the cruel, evil and child-murdering overlord that is God tells them?
Cause if we are, I think you're in deep snow for posting what you posted.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
friendofgunnar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
able to speed up time
|
|
posted July 15, 2009 01:44 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Oh, and it is not God Junior who died on the cross. It is God existing as a man.
Quote:
1Jn 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
Don't be so sure of that...
1 John 3:16 (New International Version)
16This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.
1 John 3:16 (Contemporary English Version)
16We know what love is because Jesus gave his life for us. That's why we must give our lives for each other.
1 John 3:16 (New Century Version)
16 This is how we know what real love is: Jesus gave his life for us. So we should give our lives for our brothers and sisters.
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted July 15, 2009 02:39 AM |
|
Edited by Elodin at 02:44, 15 Jul 2009.
|
The versions you quoted added in the words Jesus Christ "to try to make it clearer." Unfortunately that does not bring out the full meaning of the passage.
Oh, I notice you did not comment on the Acts verse I quoted. I can quoted lots more verses that say it is God who die on the cross as a man.
http://scripturetext.com/1_john/3-16.htm
Quote:
<< 1 John 3:16 >>
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
King James Bible
Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
American King James Version
Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers.
American Standard Version
Hereby know we love, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
Douay-Rheims Bible
In this we have known the charity of God, because he hath laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
Darby Bible Translation
Hereby we have known love, because he has laid down his life for us; and we ought for the brethren to lay down our lives.
English Revised Version
Hereby know we love, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
Webster's Bible Translation
By this we perceive the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
World English Bible
By this we know love, because he laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers.
Young's Literal Translation
in this we have known the love, because he for us his life did lay down, and we ought for the brethren the lives to lay down;
Now, you will notice that "of God" is not included in some versions. The phrase "of God" is not in the original verse, but was added for clarificaltion. I will show that it is indeed talking about God. Let's look at chapter 3 verses 1 and 5.
Quote:
1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
Here we see the chapter is talking about the love of the Father (God.)
Quote:
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Here we see God is continuing to be talked about and that he will appear.
Quote:
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Now who it the he? The subject is the Father (God.) Notice the words Jesus Christ have not been mentioned once.
The chapter continues to talk about God. So we see the words "of God" are properly inserted (in italics in the King James version so show they were inserted) for understanding. It is the love of God that is being talked about. Jesus is God existing as a man.
If you do not accept that Jesus is God existing as a man I'll be glad to giver further evidence that that is what the Bible teaches.
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted July 15, 2009 03:39 AM |
|
Edited by Corribus at 03:41, 15 Jul 2009.
|
@FOG
Quote:
Don't be so sure of that...
Ye gods, man, are you daft?! You're going to try to win a Bible quoting contest with Elodin?!
That's sort of like trying to take down Godzilla armed with nothing but a sack full of feces. Not only would it be hopeless, but I'm pretty damn sure nobody else would want to be around to watch it happen, either...
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
|
|
TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
|
|
posted July 15, 2009 03:51 AM |
|
|
If we, the humans, are such a terrible, sinful, violent and destructive race, then why did God create a race that is so terrible, sinful, violent and destructive?
He mustn't be not a very good creator. I should know, after all, I've played at least 10 minutes of Spore on Nintendo DS.
____________
John says to live above hell.
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted July 15, 2009 03:53 AM |
|
|
Quote:
If we, the humans, are such a terrible, sinful, violent and destructive race, then why did God create a race that is so terrible, sinful, violent and destructive?
He mustn't be not a very good creator.
Nah. It's just a psychology phenomenon to think that way. If he was a dictator and we were perfect robots (who still could complain), we would be complaining that God is Stalin. Either way there's no pleasing, not with freedom of choice, not with perfection.
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 15, 2009 04:11 AM |
|
|
If we were perfect (why robots?), we wouldn't have much to complain about.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
|
|
posted July 15, 2009 04:12 AM |
|
|
we would complain about an imperfect earth.
____________
If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 15, 2009 07:47 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
You might think there would have been an easier, less bloody way to redeem humanity, like, speaking the word, for example.
Jesus, uhm, tried to speak the word. That's why they nailed him to a wooden plank.
Been a while since I read the Bible but if I recall correctly, God didn't betray, imprison, crucify or kill Jesus. It was, uhm, us. The people. The humanity which he tried to convince not to kill each other.
Bak, it was planned that way, it HAD to happen that way - or so it's told.
But why such a bloody way, couldn't he have done it in any other way? And it wasn't for show, obviously, it wasn't such a spectacle.
What I wanted to say is, that god doesn't look to be "good". First he shows his children the door, then he calls one and says, hey, I'll give you from all others another chance to do it right, and when they lack enthusiasm, he's getting quite angry. He has a couple of fits of destruction, he's pretty... shilly-shally, shall we say, can't decide on a straight course and whether he should act directly or not. It's all a bit arbitrary, he sees clear roles for the two genders he made which means he hasn't that much trust in the capacities of the female creation - and id you look at the commandments, I mean, it's not that easy, isn't it? "Thou shalt not kill" is quite obviously not meaning that: they DO kill, and they kill a lot. It's actually "Thou shalt not kill a fellow Jew, except when they break the rules". Slight difference.
And think about the weight that is given to not worshipping other gods. I mean, he's the only one, he says. I mean, shouldn't that be obvious? Imagine, you are the chosen people, that one and only god proves his existance, is there, works miracles, leads them out of slavery - and a couple of days without him they forget everything and start busily worshipping something else. Either hadn't made such a lasting impression or they were happy to get rid of the old grumbler or god picked a really dumb clan there.
In any case you have to wonder about the evil part. I mean, blaming all evil on one part while claiming all the good stuff for oneself - isn't that a bit thin? After all, he created everything, or so it is said, then how got evil into his perfect creation?
In any case, the story isn't looking kosher, don't you think? Lots of holes in it - like a piece of winner-history...
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted July 15, 2009 08:42 AM |
|
|
Quote:
What I wanted to say is, that god doesn't look to be "good".
God became a man and let himself be spit on, slapped around, have his beard be pulled out and be tortured to death out of love for us. Yeah, I'd say God is pretty evil...
Lol! As for the rest of your post, it makes no sense. It looks like you were just making crap up honestly. You really can't be a successful Christian basher if you just ramble. You need focus and you have to refer to specific events.
Quote:
First he shows his children the door, then he calls one and says, hey, I'll give you from all others another chance to do it right, and when they lack enthusiasm, he's getting quite angry. He has a couple of fits of destruction, he's pretty... shilly-shally, shall we say, can't decide on a straight course and whether he should act directly or not.
I guess you mean Adam and Eve getting kicked out of Eden but the rest of the sentence makes no sense.
Who lacked enthusasium to do what?
What fits of destruction are you talking about? God judging Sodom? That was quite some time after the Fall.
Where is it said God couldn't decide on a straight course?
Quote:
It's all a bit arbitrary, he sees clear roles for the two genders he made which means he hasn't that much trust in the capacities of the female creation - and id you look at the commandments, I mean, it's not that easy, isn't it? "Thou shalt not kill" is quite obviously not meaning that: they DO kill, and they kill a lot. It's actually "Thou shalt not kill a fellow Jew, except when they break the rules". Slight difference.
Huh? God created both Adam and Eve in his image, as equals. But the genders have different biological, social and spiritual roles to fill. The woman being able to bear children does not make her superior to the man and the man's role as spiiritual leader does not make him superior to the woman.
Or do you claim the president of the US is superior to all other poeple in the US?
Huh? God said "Do not murder." It is not God's fault if you go out and murder someone. He said not to. But he did not make you a robot.
Quote:
It's actually "Thou shalt not kill a fellow Jew, except when they break the rules".
I really wish you wouldn't lie about the Jews and God's Word. But hey, if it makes you feel good I guess that is why you do it.
Quote:
Exo 20:13 13 "You shall not murder.
Nope, I don't see an exception there about it being ok to kill Gentiles. Please don't hate on the Jews. I don't think the Jews killed Germans but the Germans did kill the Jewss.
Quote:
Imagine, you are the chosen people, that one and only god proves his existance, is there, works miracles, leads them out of slavery - and a couple of days without him they forget everything and start busily worshipping something else. Either hadn't made such a lasting impression or they were happy to get rid of the old grumbler or god picked a really dumb clan there.
**sigh** Please stop hating on the Jews. There is no reason to call the Jews dumb. A lot of Jews have won nobel prizes. Einstein was a Jew.
Quote:
In any case you have to wonder about the evil part. I mean, blaming all evil on one part while claiming all the good stuff for oneself - isn't that a bit thin? After all, he created everything, or so it is said, then how got evil into his perfect creation?
Errrrr looks like you skipped quite a bit when you read the Bible. Lucifer was a very beautiful angel who became prideful and decided he was going to rule over everything, even over God. God kicked his butt to the curb Lol! No matter how big you are in your own eyes you aren't big enough to throw down with God.
So anyways, Lucifer, now know as the Devil (advasary) was peeved and tricked Eve into sinning. Adam sinned knowing he was sinning though.
So as you see, God is not responsible for the sin in the world. He said not to live like a jerk but you can certainly show your butt and live like a jerk. Don't blame God when you reap what you sow.
Quote:
In any case, the story isn't looking kosher, don't you think? Lots of holes in it - like a piece of winner-history...
Nah, no holes in it. Although you made up some stuff evidently.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 15, 2009 09:24 AM |
|
|
That's what I say: god is ruling alone which would be defined as dictatorship. Sin is defined as, umm, violating god's laws or disobeying god, respectively. However, the story that Lucifer was a BEAUTIFUL angel who wanted to rule himself, even over god, is WINNER-history.
It mighty be as well that he simply rebelled against god's absolute dictatorship, inciting disobedience to make things a little more democratic in paradise city. Of course god wouldn't have none of that and smashed the rebellion.
Now, I don't say it WAS that way. I only say, that we read WINNER-history here. And that history doesn't make any sense. Why would you allow the embodiment of evil to live on and spew forth his venom onto the unsuspecting humans?
I mean, that's like the allies marching into Germany, crush Hitler, then exile him INTO the moon and the Germans ONTO the moon, allowing him to run TV stations all over the moon and sending his minions (why does he have any, btw?) to corrupt everyone, then sending the successfully corrupted into the moon after him, while the uncorrupted ones are resettled to Germany and picking the citizens of, say, Bonn, Moon, to have them re-educated for keeping the knowledge alive that the Allies are the real deal, won the battle and may bring everyone back to Germany, Paradise.
That doesn't make a lot of sense. Or does it? I don't see any. I mean, why bother?
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted July 15, 2009 09:56 AM |
|
Edited by Mytical at 10:01, 15 Jul 2009.
|
Well it is complicated but here goes. The reason Lucifer has 'followers' is that he led a rebellion of Angels. Those who sided with him were banished along with him. Lucifer was not destroyed (or his followers) because God (believe it or not) is all about forgiveness AND free will. So instead he just banished Lucifer.
Now Lucifer was one of his most trusted angels before the rebellion (which to me proves that God never was ALL knowing like advertised), and I guess you would say that God considered him a friend. He decided to trust humans (again a sign he might not know everything) to make the right decision..maybe because he didn't want to have to kill Lucifer and the other Angels.
Also, I firmly believe that God views us from a distance. He has greater things to worry about. So in effect, though our sins are 'recorded' he doesn't really pay much attention until 'the end of time'. ((He DVR's our sins to watch after we die)).
According to some Christian's belief the one that watches over everything is the Holy Ghost, and it is not portrayed as all knowing. God sort of left it in charge, but in away you can say it is just a scribe wrighting down things for God to look over later. I mean the guy DOES have a huge universe to run. Of course my views are way off of mainstream..so .. 
Edit : I would be more interested in why God had to have Michael do the heavy lifting. I mean, he's god..shouldn't he be the strongest? But he never lifts a finger, has the other Angels do all the dirty work.
____________
Message received.
|
| |
|
|
This Popular Thread is pages long: 
