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JollyJoker
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posted July 15, 2009 10:16 AM |
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Mytical, why would you believe that god is all about free will and forgiveness? I mean, the OT isn't exactly advertising that, or is it? The bible says, god had no problem to kill everyone except Noah and his family, that doesn't sound like FORGIVENESS. Nor is he an advocate of FREE will, but only of HIS will. Whether that may or may not have changed later, is irrelevant, since the "split" with Lucifer happened much earlier.
So why giving Luci so much power over the poor humans instead of destroying evil like he did with the humans? Did he like Lucifer so much more than us? After all, WE were just tempted to disobey. I mean, HE supposedly rebels with the intention to replace god and gets his own empire with power to corrupt us further, and what do we get for being tempted and bedazzled and disobedient ONCE?
You call that fair?
I mean, the other way round would have made sense, right? Put us into misery, ok, and deliver Lucifer into OUR power, so we could show him what we think about him tempting us into disobeying the big boss, putting him on the pillory for it or something. Then WE might forgive Luci one day, having used us for his schemes against the big boss (and ourselves for being so dumb to believe his smooth tongue).
So does that add up?
Edit: well, that's what I say. It sounds more like, God plays big and only boss, and eventually one got fed-up with doing all the work, while god would just sit and boss around, and tried to organize things differently. Probably trying to found an angels union or something. Sure, sounds ridiculous, but the point is still there:
how do we KNOW that god is really the good guy - he admittedly murdered us once, nearly completely, he played games with Luci, giving him a lot of power to make Job's life miserable - I mean, imagine how Job must have suffered. And all that for some bet.
So the winner-document isn't really a demonstration of god's goodness, but more of his POWER.
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Mytical
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posted July 15, 2009 10:31 AM |
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Again an interesting question, and I will answer it the best I can. Remember though I know a lot about the bible, I am no expert. However here goes. There is a difference between being strict and not allowing free will. A parent is 'strict' but knows that a child will have it's own thoughts on things. So although God, during the time, was Strict I don't think he was a Tyrant.
As for the flood vs rebellion..here it is in a nutshell. God does not value 'flesh' as much as he values 'spirits'. Although he made man flesh, he included a spirit in them, and this is why to him they are worthwhile. So destroying flesh, to him, I believe is of less consequence then destroying spirits. That is why that he is loath to destroy Lucifer and the Rogue Angels, but was not the 'flesh' of mankind. Note he never destroyed the spirits of those people, just their flesh.
So although God is an Authoritarian and believes that everybody should abide by the rules set down, he does give mankind free will. He just says "Don't get upset when you don't abide by the rules and you get spanked."
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JollyJoker
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posted July 15, 2009 10:48 AM |
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Makes no sense - if he doesn't value flesh, why give it to us in the first place? I mean, if you make dinner and you really care for vegetables, but not for meat, why make a dinner with a ton of meat and hide a few vegetables among it?
That would make us kind of trash with a small valuable core, a piece of rusted scrap-metal with a gem-molecule hidden in it. If you wanted to make a really good piece of work, would you take something of value and hide it in some junk? For what reason?
Moreover, again you take the winner-word for the spirit, and you take the winner-word for what happened with the spirits when humanity was nearly eradicated. Even the winner-history would hint on said spirits being damned and going to Lucifer into eternal damnation, right?
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Mytical
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posted July 15, 2009 10:58 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 11:04, 15 Jul 2009.
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But the spirit is not destroyed..even in the pits. As I said, my veiws does not represent Christians. I can not speak for Christians, because I myself am not one. I don't take the 'winners' side, but use my own interpretation (spelling?) of things.
Ok now about the flesh/spirit part. Say you are a brandy maker. You make the worlds best Brandy, does it really matter what the vessal is like? Or is what important the brandy? He made a vessal for the spirit, so mankind could learn and (hopefully) grow as individuals before joining him and his angels (hopefully again). The Vessal doesn't matter as much as what is inside.
Yes most likely the spirits of the people of that time went to Lucifer. Yes most likely they were tormented. That does not destroy the spirit however. Also I firmly believe that 'hell' is not permanent. Unlike MOST Christians I don't believe punishment is eternal. Eventually you get paroled  . For some it just takes a long long long time.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 15, 2009 11:32 AM |
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Quote:
Ok now about the flesh/spirit part. Say you are a brandy maker. You make the worlds best Brandy, does it really matter what the vessal is like? Or is what important the brandy? He made a vessal for the spirit, so mankind could learn and (hopefully) grow as individuals before joining him and his angels (hopefully again). The Vessal doesn't matter as much as what is inside.
That one is flawed:
If YOU was the maker of the best brandy in the world, would you care for the vessel or not? I would. Bad vessel may corrupt what's in it. So you would take extreme care to make sure that the vessel would NOT corrupt the contents - otherwise you'd just be sloppy.
More - would you make the vessel so big and the content so small that it would be extremely difficult to even see or register the content?
About your interpretation of things: Since you actually believe that things are much better in reality than passed down: wouldn't that mean that you think history has been forged by the evil side? That Lucifer somwhow at least got one small victory there and managed to sketch god worse than he actually is? Changed some details to make him look cruel?
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Mytical
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posted July 15, 2009 11:42 AM |
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Sure you'd worry about how the contents might be corrupted, but the spirit is not corrupted by the flesh, but by the choices we make. And just because WE can not find or register it, does not mean it is small and unregisterable. We are just not wise enough yet to know HOW to messure it. I will admit that some worry over the vessal is due, but it was not a perfect annology .
As to your next question. No. Though I do believe that Lucifer HAS had victories, I think it is more in peoples Interpretation. We are human, and prone to flaws (though seems nobody is willing to admit that, or very few are). The books were written by MAN, and thus by that very fact means there is likely to be flaws in it. They are read by MAN and his understanding of it can be flawed. Even if divinely inspired MAN wrote and reads it.
Man at the time of the old testiment FEARED god, and gave him a fearsome visage. One that may have had no bearing on the reality. As man grew to understand god better, that fearsome visage went away. Either that or god matured some  . Maybe at one time he was just a kid throwing a tantrum and grew up. I honestly don't know.
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baklava
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posted July 15, 2009 11:43 AM |
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I think everything would be so much clearer if we didn't take the Old Testament so literally... 
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Mytical
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posted July 15, 2009 11:48 AM |
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One of my favorite comedians put it best about the Old Testiment. At the time the people were starting to make the people in Vegas look positively normal. They needed harsh rules just to get them in line. (paraphrase since I can not hope to be as funny about it as he was)
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Lord_Immortal
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posted July 15, 2009 11:58 AM |
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I gave up too,I am Polytheist
Ok,I saw this thread today and I thought I need to say it,I am Polytheist.It might be the events in my country,Albania,that led me to this belief,but I can also say,that here religion is somthing they see born or inhert.The people sais that your religion is born to you just by seeing the hand(As you know the hand has some sort of M or N to ease the movement) they say it sais that you are muslim.The greatest horror here is that the children go to mosque to age 2 and in there are taught:"Love Allah first and after the parents".I herd that this happened to a boy in albania and he left the mosque(but others do not,they continue to learn this).I do not mean that the muslims here are bad people,they are very good in fact,but try to convince them that science is more correct,they will never listen.One of my school teachers is muslim(fanatic) and she sometimes speeks in class about demons,genies,efreets and vampires.Some pupils(mostly girls)are scared to death while some others(in fact only me) like this "demonology lessons" and after school I often mock the devil!Once she said me:"You have time till age 12 to save your soul and join Allah!"I was 11.Today I am 12 and the favour of the gods continues toward me.Another analysis I made to the muslim religion is that all countries with muslim majority are poor and had a great time in war ex.Albania,Afghanistan,Pakistan,Nepal,Iran,Iraq etc. while polytheist countries like India and Japan,philosophic religion countries like China and Tibet also Christian countries are the best countries to live(exept from China's overpopulation in cities).Also,there is something else I noticed about monotheism:Never accepts science! This is something bad beacause science is the best way to know the world and some of the most correct polytheists accept science gladly.Also,some cults(Monotheist) tell young children to hang themselves so they can go to Heaven!LIES!In Albania this happened with the cult "Witnesses of Jehova".Around 7-10 children hang themselves to "GO TO HEAVEN".This events pushed me to become polytheist.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 15, 2009 12:08 PM |
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So we pick what we like and "take the rest not so literally"?
Why would we do that?
I mean would we do that with ANYthing else as well? Roman history? Pick what you like, the rest is probably just a metaphor? Will they do that with currenty history as well anytime in the future? You know, these Germans, don't take everything just so literally. Yes, they build motorways and made sure everyone got decent work, certainly, but concentration camps to kill people with gas? Who'd do something like that? Look at those Germans, they are perfectly normal, so it must be a metaphor for something else. Wait, maybe they had a rat plague there and wanted to kill the vermin and someone made a translation error, or it was meant entirely symbolic for some painful cleansing or something...
So: why take A CERTAIN SOMETHING literally and the rest not - or the other way round. If you take SOMETHING with a grain of salt or two, wouldn't you then have to doubt EVERYTHING?
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Mytical
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posted July 15, 2009 12:19 PM |
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You are certainly free to believe however you want Jolly. I personally believe that there are greater things then MAN in this universe. In fact I would be greatly dissapointed if not. Also, I tend to believe that our life on this mudball of a world is not a 'waste', that there is something beyond this mortal coil. So I look at the positive, and don't focus on the negative.
Since I believe there is something, but do not know WHAT, I can not rule out Christianity being right. My views on it are shaped by my optimism. Call it delusional if you want, I don't really care. However, in some cases you have to take things a bit more litterally. As the bible reads (to me) is that God started out Harsh because that was what mankind needed. Then, as mankind grew he let up a bit. It said that he left the 'holy ghost' in charge, so I think he is a bit more focused on other things right now, and not just us. Maybe that is why things are so messed up. I don't know.
What I do know is that this life is about learning and growing so we can 'comprehend' what happens in the next life when we get there.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 15, 2009 01:05 PM |
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Why so defensive?
I mean, you say, OF COURSE you can believe what you want... call me delusional if you want (but I don't care)...
All that sounds like you'd believe something against better KNOWLEDGE (I mean that in the sense that your mind is telling you, you can't be serious, while your gut tells you, nah, everything will be okay).
I mean, you certainly can believe what you want and don't need to justify for that (that you believe something). But the interesting question is, WHY or what exactly MAKES you believe something.
For example, I'm the type who pulls, if he sees a lose ribbon somewhere. Can't help it, must PULL. You'll acknowledge that when you look at my posts in other threads. So, with the bible, I have to pull as well, and I can't say I'm happy with what I find and found there. I mean, once you start to twist the Bible round (and basically everyone I know who calls himself a believer does that) and starts interpreting, taking this and that not literally, discarding things as added by man, interpreting words of Jesus and so on, is making up their own very personal belief. Nothing wrong with it, of course.
I just wonder, I mean, if you (anyone, not you personally) do that, why not start from scratch and say, heck, I don't know what's wrong and what's right anymore, so forget that stuff completely. If I believe something I'm completely happy with, my chances to be right are not worse than when I believe in my personal interpretation of the bible.
Know what I mean?
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Mytical
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posted July 15, 2009 01:12 PM |
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Edited by Mytical at 13:14, 15 Jul 2009.
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Why do I believe as I believe? Well I have answered this before, but have no problem answering it again. While researching various (and sundry) religions I found a few common threads. For the most part the major religions share basic ideas. Fellowship (brotherhood and the like), and taught morality. I figure, if so many agree (even if they disagree on other points) there just MAY be something to it.
((Interresting tidbit, did you know the flood is common in a LOT of religions?))
Also, personal experiences with ... unusual events.
Again, I never once said I believe the bible is accurate. I explained my understanding of it. I don't KNOW if it is or not, and why would I talk negative about something I am not SURE about? Makes no sense.
As for the delusional comment, I have been called worse. I realise my belief is NOT mainstream, and that people see it a bit odd. I acknowledge that, but it does not change what I believe.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 15, 2009 01:40 PM |
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I agree with Corribus in the other thread. "Odd" is not really a fitting label for a belief because that would suggest there are reasonable ones. 
About the flood, yeah, sure. But as far as I know there is no geological evidence for a big flood like that.
Now, if you put your belief together from many sources, so-to-speak, do I see it right then, that the bible is for you a book written by humans. Still, the points you make are based on believing in god, angels, humans made by one god and so on. Or are you just speculating?
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baklava
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posted July 15, 2009 03:49 PM |
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@Lord_Immortal
Hey there, welcome to the forums. I must say, your English is impressive for your age.
Your post is very interesting, and I've never seen someone at the age of 12 debating polytheism. Can you explain me in what way exactly are you a polytheist? What gods and deities you believe in and how? Is it some ancient Illyric ones from your region and similar, or some others like those from the Hindu faith, and how did you find out about them? I'm curious
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Elodin
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posted July 15, 2009 05:17 PM |
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However, the story that Lucifer was a BEAUTIFUL angel who wanted to rule himself, even over god, is WINNER-history.
Sorry, you can't prove that that it did not happen that way. You just love trying to smear Jews/Christians.
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Now, I don't say it WAS that way. I only say, that we read WINNER-history here. And that history doesn't make any sense. Why would you allow the embodiment of evil to live on and spew forth his venom onto the unsuspecting humans?
I already explained that. God says don't sin. But he allows you to sin if you want to. You are free to be as big a jerk as you want to be but in the end you will be judged for being a jerk.
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Now Lucifer was one of his most trusted angels before the rebellion (which to me proves that God never was ALL knowing like advertised),
God is all knowing. Oh, and nothing in the Bible says God "trusted" Lucifer.
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According to some Christian's belief the one that watches over everything is the Holy Ghost, and it is not portrayed as all knowing.
The Holy Ghost is presented as being the all-knowing God.
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Edit : I would be more interested in why God had to have Michael do the heavy lifting. I mean, he's god..shouldn't he be the strongest? But he never lifts a finger, has the other Angels do all the dirty work.
God gives angels tasks just as he gives humans tasks. Yes, God can do anything but if he did everything there would nothing for us to do.
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The bible says, god had no problem to kill everyone except Noah and his family, that doesn't sound like FORGIVENESS.
Noah preached for 120 years before the flood came. That sounds like a lot of patience on God's part. God doesn't want anyone to perish but if you don't repent of sin you will go to hell.
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2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
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Nor is he an advocate of FREE will, but only of HIS will.
False. God gives us free will. That does not mean there are no consequences to our actions.
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HE supposedly rebels with the intention to replace god and gets his own empire with power to corrupt us further, and what do we get for being tempted and bedazzled and disobedient ONCE?
Satan did not "get his own empire." He and the angels that rebelled against God are intent on taking as many people to hell with them as possible. But you don't have to rebel against God.
Satan got kicked out of heaven, man gat kicked out of Eden.
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how do we KNOW that god is really the good guy - he admittedly murdered us once, nearly completely,
Untrue. Judging is not murdering. Do you call human judges that sentence someone to death murdering? Sorry, your cliam has no validity.
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he played games with Luci, giving him a lot of power to make Job's life miserable - I mean, imagine how Job must have suffered. And all that for some bet.
Sorry, there was no bet.
Job went through his temptation and came out a better man and more prosperous.
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So the winner-document isn't really a demonstration of god's goodness, but more of his POWER.
Untrue. Man rebelled against God, God became a man and sacrificed his own human life for man. Sounds like love to me.
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Makes no sense - if he doesn't value flesh, why give it to us in the first place?
Flesh and spirit are both valued. All flesh will eventually die. On judgment day all flesh will be resurrected.
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That Lucifer somwhow at least got one small victory there and managed to sketch god worse than he actually is? Changed some details to make him look cruel?
The Bible does not present God to be cruel. Satan has never won a victory against God. He does win victories against men.
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monotheism:Never accepts science! This is something bad beacause science is the best way to know the world and some of the most correct polytheists accept science gladly.Also,some cults(Monotheist) tell young children to hang themselves so they can go to Heaven!
Errrrrr monotheists (Christians specifically) are responsible for modern science. Oh, and killing yourself is a sin according to Christianity. So I don't know where you are getting your ideas.
I'm not a JW but from what I've read JW look at suicide as self-murder and so the person has no chance to repent before facing God for judgment.
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So we pick what we like and "take the rest not so literally"?
You are the one picking what parts to believe. "Oh, I think God is cruel so I'll toss out stuff that makes God look good and make up stuff to make God look bad."
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So, with the bible, I have to pull as well, and I can't say I'm happy with what I find and found there. I mean, once you start to twist the Bible round (and basically everyone I know who calls himself a believer does that) and starts interpreting, taking this and that not literally, discarding things as added by man, interpreting words of Jesus and so on, is making up their own very personal belief.
It is not believers who are twisting the Word of God. I've never done that though the anti-Christians do it all the time.
Oh, some things are not literal. The Bible uses parables, metaphors, allegories, and other figures of speech. Most people use figures of speech in their day to day conversation.
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I agree with Corribus in the other thread. "Odd" is not really a fitting label for a belief because that would suggest there are reasonable ones.
I consider your belief to be quite unreasonable but mine to be reasonable.
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Now, if you put your belief together from many sources, so-to-speak, do I see it right then, that the bible is for you a book written by humans.
The Bible was written by God through humans.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 15, 2009 05:39 PM |
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Noah preached for 120 years before the flood came. That sounds like a lot of patience on God's part. God doesn't want anyone to perish but if you don't repent of sin you will go to hell.
Untrue. False claim.
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he played games with Luci, giving him a lot of power to make Job's life miserable - I mean, imagine how Job must have suffered. And all that for some bet.
Sorry, there was no bet.
It has all the earmarks of a bet, just to prove Satan wrong (bold print for convenience):
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And Jehovah said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job? for there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil.
Then Satan answered Jehovah, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Hast not thou made a hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath, on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
But put forth thy hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will renounce thee to thy face.
And Jehovah said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thy hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of Jehovah.
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Elodin
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posted July 15, 2009 05:51 PM |
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Noah preached for 120 years before the flood came. That sounds like a lot of patience on God's part. God doesn't want anyone to perish but if you don't repent of sin you will go to hell.
Untrue. False claim.
Sorry, your cliam is false.
2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
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It has all the earmarks of a bet, just to prove Satan wrong (bold print for convenience):
Nope, God did not put up something and Satan put up something to risk on an outcome. Nope. Sorry, didn't happen. Noperrrzzzzzz.
God knows the end from the beginninging and therefore can't wager.
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Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
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angelito
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posted July 15, 2009 06:13 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 18:13, 15 Jul 2009.
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God knows the end from the beginninging and therefore can't wager.
Yep, exactly. And there it is again, the ultimate question:
Why doesn't he prevent harm from innocent people then?
He knows exactly, Mister T.J. Miller from Alabama will rape a 3 year old girl next tuesday. There is nothing this little girl can do to prevent that tragedy. Even with her given FREE WILL.
Life is a gift of God (I've read...).
Why does he allow bad people to take away that gift HE gave to others, especially from those who can't fight back?
Of course T.J Miller will go to hell when he dies at the age of 98, except he turns into a baptist at the age of 83. Cause then the "From Saulus to Paulus" rules will be applicable.
But what about the little girl? Of course she will go to heaven and feel great for the duration of an eternity (but still she lost her whole life on earth except 3 great years). But so will the baptist Paulus (T.J. Miller). Or will his eternity last a little shorter? So he recieves a little punishment at least....
In my eyes, God has preferences.....
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Elodin
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posted July 15, 2009 06:50 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 18:50, 15 Jul 2009.
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Why doesn't he prevent harm from innocent people then?
Because God did not make humans to be robots. You can chose to do evil or to do good.
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In my eyes, God has preferences.....
Nope. If you truly repent and obey the gospel of Christ he will receive you regardless of what you have done in the past.
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