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angelito
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posted July 16, 2009 01:47 PM |
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Exactly those statements make me even more think there is no God.
Hey, if you'd rather be a robot, then you'd rather be a robot. I don't want to be a robot myself.
elodin...please...don't start to act like TheDeath. Your statement had more content than just the first part you quoted. And I thought it was quite obvious I was refering to the second part of your statement, because my whole post is based on that. But you just picked the part you liked huh? 
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Elodin
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posted July 16, 2009 01:56 PM |
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Exactly those statements make me even more think there is no God.
Hey, if you'd rather be a robot, then you'd rather be a robot. I don't want to be a robot myself.
elodin...please...don't start to act like TheDeath. Your statement had more content than just the first part you quoted. And I thought it was quite obvious I was refering to the second part of your statement, because my whole post is based on that. But you just picked the part you liked huh?
Huh? Your post was just crying about God giving us free wll instead of making us robots. That and saying you'd puke at God's feet and maybe God is a robot.
What else exactly did you want me to comment on?
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JollyJoker
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posted July 16, 2009 02:30 PM |
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@ Mytical
Look, Mytical, it's pretty simple, actually:
Elodin believes - knows, in fact, or "is sure" - that god is fundamentally and absolutely right and good, not just because he's god, but because he knows best and so on. He further believes that the Bible is indeed god's word, written down by enlightened men.
Consequentially, for Elodin everything in the Bible and about god has to be interpreted with that fundamental belief in mind: god IS good and right, ergo things in the Bible HAVE to be interpreted in a certain way, because otherwise they make no sense.
I, on the other hand am NOT sure about god being fundamentally right and good - in fact I'm not sure whether he exists at all. But if I ASSUME he exists, I can go only with what I have: the Bible. Now, god could go at things in two way: 1) Determining everything, making things easy, making things in a certain way, so that nothing bad or evil would happen. This is not the case, obviously. So god took another route, 2) Free Will.
Now it gets interesting. The question is this: Is free will still free will if you know about the consequences your decsions have? Think about this for a second.
In an election, if you are allowed to vote for whomever you want, but you will be beheaded if you vote anyone else then #1, would this be a free election?
How free is the will, when god says, do this or that and suffer eternally?
Example: You have a terminal illness, suffering so severe and constant pain that you have to be drugged most of time to stand it. You want to die, since there is no way to get rid of the pain. However, if you end your pain, you are in for an eternity of worse pain, which seems to make a farce of free will.
Free will - if it is to matter - must come freely. We - humans - must form a moral society OUT OF FREE WILL, because we think it is RIGHT, not because we fear eternal damnation if we don't do it. (and look at angelito's posts).
Now, the Bible god acts different, though. He just hands us his big book of laws, doesn't allow any human input about it and threatens everyone with eternal damnation who dares to differ. That's - in my opinion - not allowing free will, but PRESSING INTO OBEDIENCE!
I'd probably be content with that, if I could accept and respect all the "laws", but I can't do that either - some of them are against everything I'ce come to embrace as "moral".
Obviously, bible-Christians have no problem with this contradiction between explaining the state of the world with giving humans free will on one hand, but nodding to the fact that god is throwing in pretty massive incentives to discourage humans from making use of it in certain ways - but for me that makes no sense: you either want things to be good OR you accept free will and ACCEPT the consequences. You may steer here and there (things satan normally does), a little nudge here, a little hint there, I mean it's like god's playing heroes and a wee little cheat now and then, no problem, but this?
The conclusion for me is, therefore, EITHER the bible is right, then god is NOT good and right or the Bible is wrong, and in that case we don't really have any sound information.
You see why Elodin and I fundamentally disagree now?
Okay, let me add something here. I did write something like that in another thread, but still.
I wouldn't accept a HUMAN ruler that would put all homosexuals to death. Hitler time again, but still, if someone like Hitler would actually agree on something with any god - or vice versa -, I'd be very careful anyway, to say the least.
If I couldn't accept a human ruler putting homosexuals on death row, how much less could I accept a god putting them on eternal pain?
This, however, is not a problem of god, it's a problem of the bible. Why should I even believe that there even IS a monster god like that? Can really ANYONE think that IF a being exists that created everything and so on, that this being would be so AWFULLY PETTY to deliver something as small and insignificant like a human being into the enormity of ETERNAL PAIN? Because an old book says so?
Please.
So. YES, I'm DEAD sure, ETERNAL PAIN sure, that this god of the bible is non-existant, and that if a god exists he'll be different. He won't be homophobe and he won't be anti-woman, nope.
It's simple actually: either the Bible is wrong or we are all screwed anyway - who would want to live in a universe that was Elodin's way?
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gurrgoyl
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posted July 16, 2009 02:39 PM |
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Does it really take so much effort to believe in God? :-)
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JollyJoker
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posted July 16, 2009 02:53 PM |
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Buddy, it's not so much a problem of believing in god, but a problem in believing in a god that is even distantly as described in the Bible.
Edit for Gurrgoyl (my posts are limited):
If you had read the longer post above this one, you didn't need to ask.
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gurrgoyl
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Looks like a book.
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posted July 16, 2009 03:09 PM |
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Do you believe in the bible god?
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angelito
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posted July 16, 2009 03:35 PM |
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Huh? Your post was just crying about God giving us free wll instead of making us robots.
So you really don't read post of others with more intense?
I will quote the main part of my post again, and you may try to find the idea behind it, and how you can explain why it happens like that, ok?
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You know, a football (soccer) player has free will too. If he breaks the rule, he will get punished. Even if he TRIES to jump into his opponent's feet without any chance hitting the ball, he will get a RED CARD. Even if he does NOT hit his opponent!
So when God is all knowing, he will KNOW T.J. Miller will rape and torture this little baby on tuesday, and that alone should be enough to punish him and let him go to hell immediately, without doing harm to the little one (he did not prevent T.J. from having FREE WILL, because WILL is in your head, action comes later! And he gave us free WILL, not free ACTION as far as I know!). Even we humans are able to punish "the try", and not only the "successfull act".
I've colored the main idea...just for the case it is really that unclear.
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Elodin
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posted July 16, 2009 05:01 PM |
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@ Mytical
Look, Mytical, it's pretty simple, actually:
Elodin believes - knows, in fact, or "is sure" - that god is fundamentally and absolutely right and good, not just because he's god, but because he knows best and so on. He further believes that the Bible is indeed god's word, written down by enlightened men.
Consequentially, for Elodin everything in the Bible and about god has to be interpreted with that fundamental belief in mind: god IS good and right, ergo things in the Bible HAVE to be interpreted in a certain way, because otherwise they make no sense.
The Bible has to be interpreted a certain way because words have meaning. 
Yes, I know my beliefs are true. You said you know all religious beliefs are unreasonable.
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I agree with Corribus in the other thread. "Odd" is not really a fitting label for a belief because that would suggest there are reasonable ones.
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How free is the will, when god says, do this or that and suffer eternally?
Because you have the ability to chose your actions. Actions have consequences.
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The conclusion for me is, therefore, EITHER the bible is right, then god is NOT good and right or the Bible is wrong, and in that case we don't really have any sound information.
So God is not good because he says murderers will burn in hell? You want free will to be a free pass to do whatever you want with no consequences. YOU CAN BE A MURDERER but thre will be consequences for your actions.
God is good. God is judge of the world. We will all answer for our deeds.
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So. YES, I'm DEAD sure, ETERNAL PAIN sure, that this god of the bible is non-existant, and that if a god exists he'll be different. He won't be homophobe and he won't be anti-woman, nope.
See? YOU ALWAYS CONDEMN OTHERS FOR SAYING THEIR BELIEFS ARE TRUE BUT YOU CLAIM YOURS ARE TRUE. In fact, you said no beliefs are rational.
Oh, I'm quite sure God doesn't fear homosexuals. "Homophobe" (phobia is a fear) is a hate word used to smear others and to try to intimidate them from speaking. And only a liar would say God is anti-woman.
But we know you are anti-Jew and anti-Christian and you attempt to smear us in every thread.
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And he gave us free WILL, not free ACTION as far as I know!). Even we humans are able to punish "the try", and not only the "successfull act".
Huh? God said you reap what you sow. You'll be judged by your deeds.
You have the freedom to be a jerk but will be judged as a jerk. You have the freedom to rape and kill but will judged as a rapist and murderer.
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Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
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angelito
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posted July 16, 2009 06:41 PM |
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And he gave us free WILL, not free ACTION as far as I know!). Even we humans are able to punish "the try", and not only the "successfull act".
Huh? God said you reap what you sow. You'll be judged by your deeds.
You have the freedom to be a jerk but will be judged as a jerk. You have the freedom to rape and kill but will judged as a rapist and murderer.
Hmmm....can anybody help please? Do I write at least close to something called "english language", or is it a mixture of mongolian and ivory coast slang?
Don't you want to understand, or have I found a point where you don't find an answer in the bible?
I will try again: ( )
My point is NOT about the free will of the rapist, it is about the harm of the 3 year old girl! Why is this so hard to understand.
I will try to make an example, maybe it is more clearly then:
You are a father (let's just assume the following). You have a son at the age of 16, and a daughter at the age of 3. You hand out a knife to your son, although you know he is quite an aggressive type of boy, who has problems to control himself when he gets angry.
And you tell him: "Take that knife and do with it whatever you want. Your choice, your free will! But when you stab it into your daughter and kill her, you will be punished, because that is NOT allowed."
You now walk out of the room, but (without your son knowing it), you have installed a camera in the room where both children stay.
At a specific point, the little girl starts to cry (maybe hungry), and is disturbing her brother who is playing an Ego-Shooter on his computer. He shouts once, twice, and a third time. His sister continues crying. Your son then takes a look at the knife, takes it in his hand, raises his hand with the blade of the knife pointing at the little girl and walks towards her.
How would you react?
You gave your son free will. He clearly showed what his will has decided right now (stabbing the sister).
Would you WAIT till he killed her and THEN come into the room and punish him?
Or would you interfere BEFORE your daughter is killed?
Just keep in mind, even when you interfere before the action takes place, your son STILL had decided with his FREE WILL what he wants to do right now.
And of course, you are a "all-loving-father", and no monster.
Again a hint for you, so you wont jump on the wrong train again: We are talking about the harm towards the daughter, NOT about the punishment or the FREE WILL of your son! His free will was respected in both cases, just his ACTION not.
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Doomforge
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posted July 16, 2009 07:34 PM |
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Hey, angelito, do you mind a bit of lighter discussion about your question? I mean, we're so dead serious here.
So, let's assume God is like you want him to be. The older kid raises the knife and a part of the ceiling falls down and kills him. So the little girl is safe and sound and the criminal gets punished before doing any evil deed.
But that would mean every other kid on earth would have to be saved like that, right? If God is just, he wouldn't pick this kid over another. So, every time a murderer tries to kill an innocent little girl, lightning bolt fries him.
People get aware of it - that some magical power protects innocents from being killed. Then some crazed terrorist installs an intelligent machine gun system on the shoulders of a 3yo girl and sends her to kill people on the street. Police can't gun down her, can they - cause they will be fried by a thunderbolt. Well, the girl is technically innocent, right? And the machine gun system starts attacking kids. What God can do, fry the girl to stop kids from getting killed?
Oh, wait, he can jam the gun. But wait, there's also a burning house in which a kid is trapped. So God puts out the fire. And there is a tsunami wave coming to drown some kids. God halts the monstrous wave. Cause why is the wave any better then the knife or the gun? It's the lack of harm that matters.
So we come to a conclusion that God would have to completely remove all elements of randomness (as we call them, I know it's not randomness but whatever, let's simplify) and make a mechanical world where everything simply tries to work in a way that doesn't threat anyone. So he has to manipulate wild animals to prevent them from attacking people, jam the guns, stop tornados and waves, and do all kinds of crazy stuff. But what of the things that can't be jammed? What if someone wants to strangle someone with his own arms?
God has to interfere, right? There is no other way to save someone other than breaking the "free will" part and halting his arms.
That's what it would HAVE to look like if it was like you want it to be  In other words, It's pretty impossible, i guess. Would you want to live in that kind of a world?
Everybody would be superman. See, you can't die, cause you're innocent. God will save you.
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Corribus
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posted July 16, 2009 07:49 PM |
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That's why the idea of god is, in itself, a glaring contradiction.
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Doomforge
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posted July 16, 2009 08:14 PM |
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Not if he doesn't really interfere, you know.
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TheDeath
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posted July 16, 2009 08:22 PM |
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Well said Doomforge. Of course, it's actually very important that you posted it, because we all know if the characters there are "TheDeath" the post's point changes.
I would like to add a simple question to Doom's description.
How many people will actually be happy to be safe but not free?
If you give up freedom for safety, you deserve neither.
To answer the harm of the young girl: people who believe in God knows that patience is the key. "Harm" is temporary compared to God's judgment and consequences. (of course only if you believe).
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No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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Warmonger
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posted July 16, 2009 08:35 PM |
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How many people will actually be happy to be safe but not free?
Unfortunatelly overwhelming majority puts their lives over abstract values. There was a research of this issue.
Honestly, freedom is relatively new concept. Just read Hegel and notice he had no idea of freedom for women at that time.
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Doomforge
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posted July 16, 2009 08:36 PM |
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I only posted this because I believe we can imagine all kinds of weird events while trying to play with our logic and there is always some absurd tied to it.
Corribus thinks that's exactly why there is no God: Because whatever we try to think of, it will always lead to absurds (when related to God and paired with omnipotence and other controversial feats).
I think that we simply shouldn't stress our brains over it: the reason is because our logic isn't flawless, and that's because we have logically impossible to solve "riddles" like "a man said every person in his town lies (including himself), did he lie or tell the truth" - in which both answers are false, and that's a pretty petty example. If our logic fails to such trivialities, facing omnipotence and omniscience is ridiculous unless.. unless we try to make omnipotence and omniscience compatible with our LOGIC. After all, there is no omniscience and such in nature, so it's an abstract concept.
I still think we should view omniscience as "knowledge of every possible outcome" - which means you can't know something that can't be known, obviously, and it doesn't mean you're no longer omniscient - you technically know ALL.. make "ALL" a mathematic set with finite number of elements and you're done, no more gaps. (this means "knowing the actions of a man of free will" is not possible and simply doesn't count since there is no such thing.)
and freedom to pick whatever option that is possible would be omnipotence for me. That means there are things "impossible" by default that shouldn't be included in the set. A bit of simple math, I believe; A set that contains all elements is technically full, you can't make it "more full" by adding elements that don't exist (but you think they can exist), do you...
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Warmonger
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posted July 16, 2009 08:41 PM |
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we have logically impossible to solve "riddles" like "a man said every person in his town lies (including himself), did he lie or tell the truth" - in which both answers are false, and that's a pretty petty example
Actually not the answer is illogical in this case, but the question itself. Mechanical use of binary logic in the area of semantics and philosophy is rather naive, but luckily we have better options.
BTW, what is the atcual topic of this thread?...
EDIT: Ahh, God. Being immune to logic by definition as it's itself the origin of every rule.
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angelito
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posted July 16, 2009 08:42 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 20:42, 16 Jul 2009.
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In opposit to TheDeath, I do not think your post is very good doomforge.
Your examples are bad, because all things you mentioned there were made by God (waves, tornados etc...), and they do NOT harm any innocent humans by their FREE WILL, in opposit to the raper.
It says God is EVERYWHERE in EVERY second. So yes, I am pretty sure if he exists, he is of course able to handle all those things pretty easily. But he doesn't want to So why bother praying or talking to him? He doesn't help an innocent 3 year old girl being tortured and killed, why should he listen to my prayers?
And you pointed it out pretty well doomforge:
GOD DOESN'T INTERFERE AT ALL
So what are the prayers for then? 
Let's see what answer you have now....
I love it when fantasies break down at a certain point coz all the main pillars broke away....
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Doomforge
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posted July 16, 2009 08:46 PM |
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I never said he couldn't do it (although I can't know it, obviously.) I always thought God exists outside time, thus, all "time related" logic loopholes sometimes brought as arguments are useless by default.
I only said that if God wanted to interfere like that, the world would be a weird combination of self-contradicting laws. Come on, if God created the laws (let's say he did), why would he want to break the laws he set himself?
And for prayers, well, my opinion is that prayers can give you the kind of strength or motivation you need to do something by yourself, not the actual "miracle" defying all laws of physics and logic. Think of it, it's actually (imho) pretty logical. Most people claiming prayers did something great for them actually found the strength within and did something "impossible" by themselves. Maybe that's what prayer is about. You need help, you prey, you get it. But it's not so easy that a pot of gold falls on top of your head.
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TheDeath
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posted July 16, 2009 08:51 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 20:51, 16 Jul 2009.
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It says God is EVERYWHERE in EVERY second. So yes, I am pretty sure if he exists, he is of course able to handle all those things pretty easily. But he doesn't want to So why bother praying or talking to him? He doesn't help an innocent 3 year old girl being tortured and killed, why should he listen to my prayers?
Of course he doesn't want to, after all he loves us to give us FREEDOM.
Or do you want him to be some sort of Big Brother dictator? How much freedom would that be?
Also I outlined the patience. All sins will be judged, according to religion of course. So what is praying for then, I wonder... Patience and you'll find out
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JollyJoker
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posted July 16, 2009 08:57 PM |
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A hypothetical god can set up things any way he want, and Doom has a point. Free will involves the possibility of evil.
However, look at raising a child, education:
If you set rukes like this:
1) Never question your father
2) Always be at home at 9 p.m.
3) Never use a cuss-word
4) Always listen to your teachers
5) Never touch another person intimately before you are married
6) Don't spit
7) Don't lie
8) Always keep your room tidy and your bed made
9) Never hit your brothers and sisters
10) Always be quiet when grown-ups talk
and you add, breaking any of this laws will lead to eternal confinement in one's room.
What is the PURPOSE of all this? Free will? Education? Raising children to responsibly acting grown-ups?
Nah. OBEDIENCE. Simple and easy. The purpose of this is obedience.
So the purpose of hell, commandments, penalties and so on is TO FORCE OBEDIENCE by THREATENING VIOLENCE. You might call it DETERRENCE.
We know that well. Kill someone - go to jail, get quartered, stoned, electrocuted, whatever is currently the rage. But why do WE use deterrenc?
Because we want to discourage certain behaviour that we find morally disdainful for certain reasons. We do that because we have no other option. WE ARE ALL EQUAL, and our only option is a mix of deterrence and education, and frankly, deterrence has lost out to education in the course of the century because it's better when humans do something out of INNER CONVICTION or FREE WILL than out of FEAR (which is what deterrence is all about).
As a whole and as society, free will means that humanity is free to choose their moral yardsticks, and humanity has sone that.
So why would god use deterrence? For what purpose? No education, mind you. Why should we be obedient? Can't we learn to love god and what he stands for out of conviction or free will?
It seems so.
God wants us to obey. God does NOT want us to love and respect him out of free will. If he would WANT that, he wouldn't threaten us into obeying his rules.
Don't misunderstand me. Free will is nothing fantastic. If you lay your head under a buzzing chainsaw, you may be using free will by doing so, but the consequence is certain.
However, god is or should be no chainsaw, nor a law of nature or a bunch of them, nor an executioner's axe or a dictator. I wouldn't pray to any of that or any machine or automatic device that stamps the sinners.
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