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JollyJoker
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posted August 29, 2009 08:36 AM |
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All beside the point.
Murder is a question of definition and situations are not always very clear - if they were you wouldn't need court.
1) A Christian can murder, THINKING he kills, later realize an error, repent, and never stopped being a Christian (for the believers: there may have been a time when his eternal soul was in grave danger).
2) A Christian can put someone to death, THINKING, he kills, never realize an error and therefore NOT repent - and in that case GOD will judge him later: whether it WAS murder or killing. This is completely independent from any human jurisdiction. In this case as well the person never stopped being a Christian: we won't know god's decision about that.
Therefore it is absolutely possible that a Christian murders. Everyone can err.
Will anyone contest this?
@ Bak specifically
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I think you guys are taking the whole repent thing far too easily.
In order to redeem yourself, according to Jesus' standards, you need to truly repent. That's a lot harder than you might think.
And I don't believe Jesus would classify most mafia guys as Christians.
Can you explain to me what this is supposed to mean? Are you saying, repenting is impossible? Someone who killed or murdered anyone can't truly repent? If not, what kind of a point do you think to make?
Worse: you start arguing "in the name of jesus": "I believe Jesus would do this or that" - with a consequence for some people. YOU ARE NOT JESUS, why would you claim to know what he might do? Isn't that already a grave error? Judging in the name of Jesus, claiming an authority you do not have?
I find it hard to swallow that you come up with something Elodin-like like this.
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Doomforge
Admirable
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Retired Hero
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posted August 29, 2009 09:14 AM |
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Quote:
This reminds me of a time when I was having a discussion with a self-proclaimed Christian. Gulf War I was approaching and so we touched on the topic of murder and war. We had already established that murder was unchristianlike and so I asked him what he would do if he was drafted into the military. He would clearly be out murdering people and thus would no longer be Christian. He said he go to war but would ask forgiveness for it afterwards. I suppose that was perfectly acceptable in the world of Christian logic but it left me shaking my head.
I guess that's not how it works - I mean, you don't go around defying God and thinking "oh well, might just ask for forgiveness afterwards". What lame Christian are you if you do so?
As for the whole words dillema: I have made my own definitions of omnipotent or omniscient, and I'm happy with them. They don't have contradictions in them, and even though some of you may say that those words mean something different... well, yeah? They do? maybe, but it's still abstract. Like, there is no such thing in nature. So we can pretty much only guess how would it look like if it existed. So, why can't I use my own version, the one that doesn't contradict our logic?  )
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Totoro
Famous Hero
in User
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posted August 29, 2009 09:29 AM |
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Yes, they wrote under the inspiration of the Spirit of God.
You know that alot of texts were left out of the Bible. These decisions were made by humans. Do you believe that God made these people to make these particular decisions?
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted August 29, 2009 11:02 AM |
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Quote:
All beside the point.
Murder is a question of definition and situations are not always very clear - if they were you wouldn't need court.
1) A Christian can murder, THINKING he kills, later realize an error, repent, and never stopped being a Christian (for the believers: there may have been a time when his eternal soul was in grave danger).
No, the New Testament writings are not besides the point.
I'm sorry but the Bible defines Christianity, not you. The inspired Christian writings are the New Testament books.
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1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
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I believe Jesus would do this or that" - with a consequence for some people. YOU ARE NOT JESUS, why would you claim to know what he might do?
Because Jesus said that people like the mafia are not his sheep. YOU ARE ONLY A CHRISTIAN IF YOU REPENT OF YOUR SINS AND SUBMIT YOURSELF TO THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST, BEING BORN OF WATER AND OF THE SPIRIT. You can't be a crime lord and be a disciple of Christ. What exactly is so hard to understand?
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Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
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Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
A person who does not follow the teachings of Christ is not his.
Now, no Christian will be perfect in this life, but no Christian will do something as horrible as murder according to the Bible.
I believe Jesus, not JJ.
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Can you explain to me what this is supposed to mean? Are you saying, repenting is impossible?
Actually, repentance can become virtually "impossible" after a time of hardening your heart because your heart can become so hard that it has a hard time responding to the move of God.
Repentance is more than mouthing words. Repentance is really seeing what you have done for the terrible thing that it was and turning away from it, resolving to never again do it with the help of God. You acknowledge your sin and cry out for mercy and try to make it right if you wronged a person.
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You know that alot of texts were left out of the Bible. These decisions were made by humans. Do you believe that God made these people to make these particular decisions?
Fake books that were written by gnostic liars were left out. Those books were written hunderds of years after Christ. The gnostics believed all matter is evil and did not have a problem with lying. They tried to piggyback their religion onto Christianity.
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titaniumalloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted August 29, 2009 11:27 AM |
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Killing an enemy soldier is not murder.
lulz
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John says to live above hell.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted August 29, 2009 11:53 AM |
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Fake books that were written by gnostic liars were left out. Those books were written hunderds of years after Christ. The gnostics believed all matter is evil and did not have a problem with lying. They tried to piggyback their religion onto Christianity.
Gnostic liars, lol. So they made all things up while the others were under the spirit of God, well that makes sense. Furthermore ALL of new testament was written AFTER Jesus had been long dead. (earliest date somewhere between 117 AD and 138 AD)
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Doomforge
Admirable
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Retired Hero
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posted August 29, 2009 12:04 PM |
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True. Still, there are fragments that were made "on special occasion" hundreds of years after Christ, you know?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 29, 2009 12:09 PM |
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Edited by Mytical at 12:13, 29 Aug 2009.
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Elodin, you can twist and turn and slither about as much as you like - if you contest the fact, that humans and Christian humans can err in their judgement you are a fool. And probably dishonest at that. Because without error is only god, by your own religion, and you should know that, so you should simply stop writing so much unconnected bla-bla.
That is, Christians can err in their judgement and "sin". Sinning includes murder, for heavens' sake, since murder may be mistaken for killing and vice versa (for example by the judges who may err as well), but human deeds are judged by HUMAN courts, amd whether a deed is a murder or not in the eye of GOD, THAT is for GOD to decide and not for YOU or anyone else.
Contesting that is folly - even trying is.
Of course that would be different if killing IN GENERAL would be considered forbidden, but it isn't. If killing as such was considered a grave failure and so on, no judgement was necessary (but in this case the problems would probably switch to trying to kill): the guy is dead, so you are wrong. Period.
But if there are JUSTIFIED (that is, justified BEFORE GOD, in the religious sense, not in the human sense) killings (and quite obviously noone is contesting THAT in this paricular part of the thread here), then justification BEFORE GOD is a thing exclusively between the killer and god because only god knows all the facts. Therefore only god CAN judge and will judge.
Do we know how god will judge in a specific case? No. We may make a guess, but know? Nope. That should be obvious. I already gave enough examples. Men can err. Men can realize an error and repent or not, especially when the deed as such, the putting-to-death, isn't forbidden.
So, final repetition: Christians can KILL; they may believe that they had no choice, that it wasn't murder and so on. We may believe otherwise. In the end it is God who judges. Christians may realize that they didn't kill, but murder (in their own eyes). In that case they may repent that, since as Christians they wouldn't want to murder.
Finally: A Christian may even WILLINGLY and KNOWINGLY murder - that is, a person who is of the Christian belief (an easy example would be revenge: someone raped and killed his daughter, a guy is caught, goes to court, ends free or with a jail sentence, and the father then kills - murders - the perp; revenge is his, says the lord, but still a human may simply crack and lose it). However, in that case he will know that he left the grounds of Christian belief and will have certain problems with coping (to say the least): in all probability it will lead to what Elodin would call a hardening against the communication with god to become something OTHER than a Christian then, if it takes too long too realize the sin and repent.
The reason is always the same: humans are not perfect and can err - after all, Jesus died as an acknowledgement of that fact: to suffer once and for all in general for the sinful nature of humans. That means that Christians CAN leave the path of whatever it is Jesus teaches, and in fact I'm sure everyone does one way or another. The main thing is, in the religious sense, to find your way back to god, realize your sins and repent them.
Let me add, that for me this specific point of discussion is closed. There simply isn't anything more to say.
Just want to point out BEFORE any problems arrise that Jolly said IF. He did NOT call Elodin a FOOL. It's an IF/THEN problem, programmers love those. - Mytical
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alcibiades
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of Gold Dragons
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posted August 29, 2009 12:13 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Killing an enemy soldier is not murder.
lulz
QFT
... oh, and how did I miss the big 2-O-O. 
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What will happen now?
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Totoro
Famous Hero
in User
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posted August 29, 2009 12:54 PM |
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Quote:
Fake books that were written by gnostic liars were left out. Those books were written hunderds of years after Christ. The gnostics believed all matter is evil and did not have a problem with lying. They tried to piggyback their religion onto Christianity.
This was just their opinion, or do you believe that God put this opinion into the minds of those who created the Bible, so that these false texts would be left out?
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted August 29, 2009 02:06 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 14:13, 29 Aug 2009.
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@JJ
First of all, mind your tone. I'm a sensitive human being. 
Second, there is a difference between phrases "That is harder than you might think" and "That is impossible".
Thirdly, Jesus quite clearly spoke about repent and what is his vision of it.
Let's imagine George Michael says "I don't like onions." Then you go on and say "George Michael doesn't like onions". Of course, you base that statement solely on his expressed opinion. And if someone started yelling in caps and whining about what right you have to judge in George Michael's name, you may quite simply mention that those are the words of George Michael himself.
What I addressed is your issue with repent as something you do not quite seem to understand. You can't make a planned repent; for example, like someone said, some dude going to war and planning to repent afterwards. You cannot spend your life working for the mafia and planning to confess your sins on the deathbed, and see that as your one way ticket to heaven. That's not how it works. Only a small percentage of sinners truly repent; these may be granted salvation. For further explanation, try reading the Bible - the Jesus part, not random quotes about raping babies from the old testament you find on the internet.
Ironically, Elodin - no matter how much I may disagree with him - and no matter how much I believe he's MVass in disguise - often presents more sensible arguments than a LOT of OSM posters.
Like I stated before, my agnosticism (with tendencies toward theism) makes religious fanatics regard me as an atheist fanatic, and atheist fanatics regard me as a religious fanatic.
The entire idea is that I just don't want to belong in any of those categories. I'm just giving the matter some thought. If I try to see something from Jesus' point of view, that doesn't mean I want to send you to hell. So chill.
@Corribus
We're getting closer to understanding each other but mind you, I never said that the Bible is the ultimate authority about Christianity; I said that Jesus is. The Bible was, for one, written by Jesus' disciples and then revised and edited over a couple of thousands of years - though it still contains a general point, one can not be too sure about all the details (especially parts that were left out). I'm not one of those Christians that put absolute authority in the Bible, though it is certainly a valuable text. No, what I was trying to say is that, through various historical sources (and yes, one of them is the Bible), we can try to realize Jesus' opinion as the founder of Christian philosophy, and then through it, draw conclusions about definitions and terms in question.
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is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 29, 2009 03:23 PM |
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Quote:
@JJ
First of all, mind your tone. I'm a sensitive human being.
Well, I am, too, so mind your writing.
Quote:
Second, there is a difference between phrases "That is harder than you might think" and "That is impossible".
I agree, that's why I do not understand why you make your post.
A is impossible.
A is possible.
A is difficult.
I don't see any value in that 3rd statement
Quote:
Thirdly, Jesus quite clearly spoke about repent and what is his vision of it.
What I addressed is your issue with repent as something you do not quite seem to understand. You can't make a planned repent; for example, like someone said, some dude going to war and planning to repent afterwards. You cannot spend your life working for the mafia and planning to confess your sins on the deathbed, and see that as your one way ticket to heaven. That's not how it works. Only a small percentage of sinners truly repent; these may be granted salvation. For further explanation, try reading the Bible - the Jesus part, not random quotes about raping babies from the old testament you find on the internet.
I wonder what gives you these strange ideas; why would you think I have those strange ideas about "planned repenting"? Why would you know anything about percentages of sinners repenting? That is preposterous. I find this actually a pretty offensive post: you are putting words in my mouth, you are interpreting my posts randomly, and you claim knowledge about repenting percentages - and all of that when the only hing I wrote about repenting was "truly and honestly repenting".
Whch means you can take your idea of repenting, and when you think that repenting a murder is impossible - the way you understand repenting -, say so. If you think it's possible - where's your point?
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Ironically, Elodin - no matter how much I may disagree with him - and no matter how much I believe he's MVass in disguise - often presents more sensible arguments than a LOT of OSM posters.
It seems I don't know a LOT of OSM posters then.
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Kraken
Famous Hero
I just love being elemental
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posted August 29, 2009 04:43 PM |
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Quote:
Jesus is God existing as a man.
But the Jews and the Muslims believe it Differently I think, and what about them? Are they filled with the Spirit of God?
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted August 29, 2009 04:57 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Killing an enemy soldier is not murder.
lulz
Self-defense is not murder.
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A Christian can put someone to death, THINKING, he kills, never realize an error and therefore NOT repent
not exactly, you see. Thinking that he "kills" must come from his own thoughts about Jesus' teachings, not what some military authority tells him to do. If some military authority tells him to kill people in a village, he ought to have a thought as to why that's needed. Then he has a choice to make to serve his military duty or Jesus. It's not like people weren't being executed in the past for this, but of course, people only keep in mind the crusades...
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No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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baklava
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posted August 29, 2009 05:05 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 17:07, 29 Aug 2009.
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@JJ
Quote:
It seems I don't know a LOT of OSM posters then.
Death, Angelito, MVass, Celfious, you, myself and some others have all, now and then, made posts that make less sense than Elodin's.
In fact, people tend to regard posts of those they agree with as quality posts, and those they disagree with as wrong and gibberish.
Rare are posts that are universally great, such as most Corribus', Minion's and similar.
Oh and Elodin, if you're reading this, no I'm not on your side.
Quote:
A is impossible.
A is possible.
A is difficult.
I don't see any value in that 3rd statement
I don't see any value in this entire discussion yet that doesn't mean it doesn't have it, hidden somewhere.
I have underlined that repent doesn't work the way some atheists think it does, simply because they're constantly implying how repent is a tool to avoid answering for your crimes. Which is a severe misunderstanding of both Jesus' teachings and Christian theology.
If you find any of my posts offensive, contact the mods. Else, "I don't see any value in that statement".
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted August 29, 2009 05:09 PM |
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For the Muslims Jesus is another of the line of prophets(he was quite the great one for the note), which was succeeded by the last prophet: Muhammad.
The Muslims main thing to be noted is their heavy use of the sentence: "God is great". A core part is their faith is that the only way to server God is by surrendering to it. So for them its basically about faith or not have faith. By the scriptures and general text its suppose to be ok to not believe in God, or submit to God. So long its your choice, and yours alone.
If you converted into being a Muslim, then you may not leave. Technically if your born a Muslim, you may leave the faith. However that is debated, but technically its your choice and yours alone to follow God.
And that you se "Allah, Allah!" everywhere in movies? The translators just suck.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted August 29, 2009 05:11 PM |
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I'm getting tired of people's greedy way of "repenting" idea. Let me explain it non-religiously.
You repent on something. That means given the damn chance to do it again without punishment, you would NOT do it simply OUT OF YOUR OWN JUDGMENT, because YOU find it wrong, not because you have a desire for something else (e.g: Heaven). If you don't, but simply want a way into Heaven, you won't get it.
Anything else is not repent. It is your mouth speaking gibberish that you don't believe in (e.g: "I'm sorry" is gibberish without meaning it).
Simply put in laymen terms, God doesn't want people that have "dark thoughts" (THOUGHTS, not WORDS like "I'm sorry") into Heaven.
It is not like I haven't said this like 5 times in this thread, but it is pointless, because new people always pop up with their greedy desire-based approach for repent.
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No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 29, 2009 05:15 PM |
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What the hell are you talking about? Are you saying that there are situations when a soldier should ask himself whether an order is evil and not to be followed or not?
So what? Isn't that a case of judgement as well? Of believing in the general "goodness" of the commanding officer? Of lies told (all terror bombers here!)? And isn't this only a pretty special case of all the possible situations when someone may believe to kill, probably murders, but never looks back?
So what are you trying to say here?
@ Bak (and in a way Death as well
Quote:
I don't see any value in this entire discussion yet that doesn't mean it doesn't have it, hidden somewhere.
I have underlined that repent doesn't work the way some atheists think it does, simply because they're constantly implying how repent is a tool to avoid answering for your crimes. Which is a severe misunderstanding of both Jesus' teachings and Christian theology.
If you find any of my posts offensive, contact the mods. Else, "I don't see any value in that statement".
You are not forced to participate, so that complaint abot the value is useless.
Frankly, I don't think that you are qualified to judge about how any atheists think how repenting "works", and in fact I find this statement again pretty offensive - you seem to take people for fools who have no idea about the basic concepts of Christianity. Why are you making assumptions like that?
Repenting is one of the easiest concepts of the Christian religion - but of course that may be obvious only for people who actually did repent something already in their life. You either repent something or you don't. It's like, well, love. You feel it or you don't.
So. If you don't see any value in this discussion, why don't you just keep out of it instead lecturing people about low repenting percentages and atheists's ideas about how repenting amy or may not work? Would that be possible?
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted August 29, 2009 05:36 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Gnostic liars, lol. So they made all things up while the others were under the spirit of God, well that makes sense. Furthermore ALL of new testament was written AFTER Jesus had been long dead. (earliest date somewhere between 117 AD and 138 AD)
I'm sorry but your dates for the writing of the New Testament are way off. The last New Testament book was written by the last of the 12 apostles, John--the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
Book Author Date Written (A.D)
Matthew Matthew 60's
Mark John Mark late 50's
early 60's
Luke Luke 60
John John late 80's
early 90's
Acts Luke 61
Romans Paul 55
1 Corinthians Paul 54
2 Corinthians Paul 55
Galatians Paul 49
Ephesians Paul 60
Philippians Paul 61
Colossians Paul 60
1 Thessalonians Paul 50 - 51
2 Thessalonians Paul 50 - 51
1 Timothy Paul 62
2 Timothy Paul 63
Titus Paul 62
Philemon Paul 60
Hebrews (Paul, Apollos, Barnabas...?) 60's
James James, half brother of Jesus 40's or 50's
1 Peter Peter 63
2 Peter Peter 63 - 64
1 John John late 80's-early 90's
2 John John late 80's-early 90's
3 John John late 80's-early 90's
Jude Jude, half brother of Jesus 60's or 70's
Revelation John late 80's -early 90's
@ JJ
Quote:
Elodin, you can twist and turn and slither about as much as you like - if you contest the fact, that humans and Christian humans can err in their judgement you are a fool.
I object to your insults. I have not been twisting, turning, and slithering and I am not a fool. I have been presenting exactly what the Bible says while you have been just making claims and have been unable to back up your claims.
I did not say Christians can't err in judgment so don't imply I did. I said Christians are not perfect but will not murder. The Bible says Christians will not murder.
Quote:
And probably dishonest at that.
I am not dishonest. I object to your insults.
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but human deeds are judged by HUMAN courts, amd whether a deed is a murder or not in the eye of GOD, THAT is for GOD to decide and not for YOU or anyone else.
I'm sorry, but God has said certain things are murder. If you kill a known innocent person deliberately you are a murderer.
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Finally: A Christian may even WILLINGLY and KNOWINGLY murder
Sorry, but a Christian can't murder.
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1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Mystical
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Just want to point out BEFORE any problems arrise that Jolly said IF. He did NOT call Elodin a FOOL. It's an IF/THEN problem, programmers love those. - Mytical
Wow, that is a convenient way to insult people and get away with it. So I can just put a spin on what someone says and then say IF you said this you are a fool and dishonest, eh?
I had clearly stated that Christians are not perfect. I object to being able to be insulted in that manner, as it was clearlly an insult.
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But the Jews and the Muslims believe it Differently I think, and what about them? Are they filled with the Spirit of God?
We are talking about Christianity. I realize not all religions have the same beliefs or there would only be one religion.
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Shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 29, 2009 05:41 PM |
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Edited by Shyranis at 17:42, 29 Aug 2009.
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Quote:
It is not like I haven't said this like 5 times in this thread, but it is pointless, because new people always pop up with their greedy desire-based approach for repent.
Well, I think a person in the mafia who was forced to be so through gunpoint could honestly repent. But that's because his or her actions are not necessarily their own entirely.
On to the other topic of soldiers and murder,
Killing enemy soldiers can be murder. Prisoners of war for example, surrendered troops. That's a war crime to kill them and considered murder. Generally the soldiers on the attacking side are more murderous than the ones on the defending side as they cannot say it is self defense if they come to the enemy for a fight, and anybody that kills civilians I'd consider a murderer unless it's a genuine accident. (I don't mean carpet bombs that "accidentally" kill people in city blocks along with the few actual targets.)
Soldiers however can repent for all of the death they cause. They are hired by governments to do some good and do a lot of evil. It doesn't mean that a lot of them do not have a guilty conscience. You need to truly feel guilty to repent. Heartless murderers do not deserve a positive afterlife, no matter who's interests they serve.
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