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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted August 30, 2009 10:53 AM |
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Jolly
Being Christian does not mean not taking responsibility, nor does it mean being flawless. Christians are human, and that means they are prone to mistakes. Confession does not get rid of earthly guilt, but just 'cleans the slate' cosmically. Also, it is meant to be a heartfelt and honest thing. So if you go out and rape a person every day, then confess, it will do nothing. The person who did this would not be honestly sorry, but just looking for an 'easy out'.
Now, lets discuss a Soldier. I believe here is where we go to the passage "Surrender unto god what is god, and unto Ceasars what is Ceasars" Paraphrasing. I am sure Elodin will know the specific verse here. Now a lot of people believe since they were talking money that is what it is about, but I do not. God would realise that man has to answer to other forces besides himself while on the physical plain. I believe that if in the heart of a soldier they did not want to kill, but was doing so to protect their family (or friends or country) god would know and be forgiving. Mind you that if they go out killing innocent villagers that they KNOW are non-combatants then that forgiveness would end.
I don't think there is a difference between killing, murder, etc. The thing I read is "Thou shalt not kill" not "Thou shalt not kill except...". However, I think like most intelligent beings, god would recognize 'extenuating circumstances'. A good Christian person who dies after killing one of three people who broke into their house to rob, rape, and kill (etc) I doubt would go to hell.
There is also what I call the 'sucker' clause (or at least I hope god would have one). If somebody is 'suckered' (or fooled, or tricked) into thinking something (like say that all non-believers are evil and must be killed) it falls under "Where there is but little, there is but little required" (again paraphrasing). Again I would hope a all knowing, all forgiving deity would put all the sin on to the person doing the tricking then the one who was tricked.
The god I believe in (or deity) is a lot less all knowing, and a lot more forgiving however.
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Message received.
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Elodin
Promising
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posted August 30, 2009 11:37 AM |
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Just because a person is a Christian, he/she isn't immune against that.
It is true that human judgment can be faulty. It is untrue that a Christian will murder.
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1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
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Moreover, it is pretty easy to sit comfily on your living room sofa and contemlate about how Christian-like would be this or that, but it's a completely different thing, when you are in some narrows and have to make a decision - god won't help: he mustn't, because that would inhibt free will. Moreover, pretty often strongs emotions will cloud reason. Fervent belief - the desire to do the right thing, to be a real Christian, not to fail the Lord and so o, may have exactly the opposite effect.
God can and does help. God's sheep hear his voice if they take the time to pray and meditate. A fervent desire to do the right thing will never lead to the opposite effect.
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For a Christian, then, is an abortion doctor an innocent person? Hardly; for all intents and purposes he is a mass-murderer of little babies, so killing one wouldn't fall under the definition of murder. At this point, it suffices to say, that quite obviously that definition of murder simply isn't enough to exclude those docs from being fair game for killing, not murdering.
I have pointed out that no Christian is authorized to punish, torture, or kill any sinner for their sin. The New Testament says the state is responsible for punishing evil doers, not the church or individual Christians. The church has no authority to kill, torture, or punish any sinner. The church can only disfellowship a person who claims to be a Christian but who is living in sin.
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Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
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If someone dies on the op slab because of the something taken, the doc is guilty and to blame - but is he less Christian because of that?
If the doctor accidentally kills someone he is not guilty of murder.
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The bottom line is, that in reality "good Christians" will sin all the time, and unavoidable, and naturally grave and gravest sins will be among them as well. Like murder.
No, a Christian can't murder. The New Testament is the authority on Christianity and it says a Christian will not murder. It does not matter how many times you repeat it you won't make it true.
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But in fact, if you look at things, there is a disturbing tendency of "knowing wrong and right" with the hardcore believers, no matter the religion the follow.
God gave believers his Word and his Spirit because he wants us to know his will. You reject the Word of God. "Harcore" believers accept the Word of God. God has said in his Word that believers will not murder. I believe God.
So yes, on things God has told us about in his Word I can certainly know what is right and wrong and I can pray about other things.
"Hardcore" atheists have a tendency to look down on religious people and to think they are superior to them. They have a disturbing tendency to think they can define the doctrine of other religions. They tend to dismiss the Scriptures of other religions without any proof that those Scriptures are wrong.and somehow think that their interpretation of the religious text is correct while the interpretation of the religious person who has studied the text all his life is wrong.
A believer might say that a person who commits a certain act is not a true believer while the hardcore atheist is likely to say "Oh yes, he is a believer even if your holy book says otherwise." That is one of the reasons that having a religious discussion with a hardcore atheist is so difficult. They tend to think their understanding of the doctrines of other religions is correct and think the follower of the religion has an incorrect understanding of the doctrine of his own religion. When a hardcore atheist is a know-it-all about the religion of the other person the believer really can't have an intelligent discussion with that type of atheist about the religion.
@Mystical
The Bible says "Thou shalt not murder" in the orignal text, not "Don't kill." If you read the next chapter (Exodus 21) you will see that murderers were to die at the hands of the witnesses. Killing is not always wrong. Murder is.
Also, God allows you to defend yourself and your property. A husband is expected to be the "saviour" of his family and die to protect them if necessary.
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Luk 11:21 When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
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Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
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alcibiades
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of Gold Dragons
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posted August 30, 2009 12:12 PM |
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The Bible says "Thou shalt not murder" in the orignal text, not "Don't kill."
A question for clarification Elodin: You keep saying that Christians don't murder because bible says that a christian doesn't murder.
But isn't this what the bible says: That a christian shouldn't murder?
Because these two things are obviously worlds apart.
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Mytical
Responsible
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Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted August 30, 2009 12:27 PM |
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To be honest it doesn't matter if the original passage said "Thou shall not Chicken'. Let me explain. Killing is killing. You take somebody's life, it doesn't matter the why. Yes there are extenuating circumstances, which makes it acceptable. Never does it make it 'good'.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think god would punish somebody who kills for certain reasons. That would be because their heart would be 'contrite' (ie they would be very sorry they had to do it), not because it was 'good'. Take the Crusades.
Some people convinced others that God wanted them to kill in his name. (Read carefully the following before any conclusions are jumped to please). The ones responsable were NOT doing it for Christianity, but the ones who were lied to were. I seriously doubt that God found that 'good'. Would he punish the ones tricked? Absolutely not, but we both can agree he would not sanction such a thing.
So the common soldier in the Crusade WAS a good Christian. Misguided, lied to, and foolish perhaps...but they honestly believed that GOD was telling them to do this horrible thing. After all, he commanded Abraham to kill his son, even if it was just a test. So Christians can kill (or call it murder if you wish), and still be Christians. However, it is a matter of knowledge. They didn't have the knowledge that they were being lied to.
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Doomforge
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posted August 30, 2009 01:20 PM |
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I always thought murder applies to humans. If you kill a pig for meat, it's not murder.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted August 30, 2009 01:35 PM |
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"Hardcore" atheists have a tendency to look down on religious people and to think they are superior to them. They have a disturbing tendency to think they can define the doctrine of other religions. They tend to dismiss the Scriptures of other religions without any proof that those Scriptures are wrong.and somehow think that their interpretation of the religious text is correct while the interpretation of the religious person who has studied the text all his life is wrong.
Well, they often dismiss a ages old book written and manipulated massively by mankind. I think that is a good enough argument to actually dismiss it, or at the least some parts of it. The world is beyond what we know anyway, the extremist atheists ignore that.
Well, hardcore atheists are a major pain. Their equally blind to the causal religious extremists anyway, with equal major flaws.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 30, 2009 02:11 PM |
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Quote:
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Just because a person is a Christian, he/she isn't immune against that.
It is true that human judgment can be faulty. It is untrue that a Christian will murder.
Ah, so erring is possible, but all Christians are immune against judgemental errors in the kill/murder area. That sounds really weird.
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Moreover, it is pretty easy to sit comfily on your living room sofa and contemlate about how Christian-like would be this or that, but it's a completely different thing, when you are in some narrows and have to make a decision - god won't help: he mustn't, because that would inhibt free will. Moreover, pretty often strongs emotions will cloud reason. Fervent belief - the desire to do the right thing, to be a real Christian, not to fail the Lord and so o, may have exactly the opposite effect.
God can and does help. God's sheep hear his voice if they take the time to pray and meditate. A fervent desire to do the right thing will never lead to the opposite effect.
Another absolute claim that hitsory has proven wrong. People tend to overdo it when they have a fervent desire to do the right thing.
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For a Christian, then, is an abortion doctor an innocent person? Hardly; for all intents and purposes he is a mass-murderer of little babies, so killing one wouldn't fall under the definition of murder. At this point, it suffices to say, that quite obviously that definition of murder simply isn't enough to exclude those docs from being fair game for killing, not murdering.
I have pointed out that no Christian is authorized to punish, torture, or kill any sinner for their sin. The New Testament says the state is responsible for punishing evil doers, not the church or individual Christians. The church has no authority to kill, torture, or punish any sinner. The church can only disfellowship a person who claims to be a Christian but who is living in sin.
Completely beside the point. We are talking about single people who in their "fervent desire" to DO something against what they feel is an incredible wrong, overshoot or misjudge.
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If someone dies on the op slab because of the something taken, the doc is guilty and to blame - but is he less Christian because of that?
If the doctor accidentally kills someone he is not guilty of murder.
Sounds like a misunderstanding. If a doc takes something under duress that may help him cope , and then someone dies because of that it is as much of an accident as is a car crash under alcohol.
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The bottom line is, that in reality "good Christians" will sin all the time, and unavoidable, and naturally grave and gravest sins will be among them as well. Like murder.
No, a Christian can't murder. The New Testament is the authority on Christianity and it says a Christian will not murder. It does not matter how many times you repeat it you won't make it true.
Paper doesn't blush. It doesn't matter what the bible says - what the people do matters.
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But in fact, if you look at things, there is a disturbing tendency of "knowing wrong and right" with the hardcore believers, no matter the religion the follow.
God gave believers his Word and his Spirit because he wants us to know his will. You reject the Word of God. "Harcore" believers accept the Word of God. God has said in his Word that believers will not murder. I believe God.
So yes, on things God has told us about in his Word I can certainly know what is right and wrong and I can pray about other things.
"Hardcore" atheists have a tendency to look down on religious people and to think they are superior to them. They have a disturbing tendency to think they can define the doctrine of other religions. They tend to dismiss the Scriptures of other religions without any proof that those Scriptures are wrong.and somehow think that their interpretation of the religious text is correct while the interpretation of the religious person who has studied the text all his life is wrong.
A believer might say that a person who commits a certain act is not a true believer while the hardcore atheist is likely to say "Oh yes, he is a believer even if your holy book says otherwise." That is one of the reasons that having a religious discussion with a hardcore atheist is so difficult. They tend to think their understanding of the doctrines of other religions is correct and think the follower of the religion has an incorrect understanding of the doctrine of his own religion. When a hardcore atheist is a know-it-all about the religion of the other person the believer really can't have an intelligent discussion with that type of atheist about the religion.
You'd have a point if Christianity would speak with one voice. However, CHRISTIANITY ITSELF has proven over the course of history that not only there are different interpreations of the word of god, but Christians have been MURDERING each other for it.
So before you start attacking atheists for pointing out that simple fact you might start asking yourself how this has been posible if Christians are "magiclly immune" against judgemental errors on the field of killing/murdering.
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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted August 30, 2009 03:31 PM |
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But isn't this what the bible says: That a christian shouldn't murder?
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
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Killing is killing.
Not according to God.
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Another absolute claim that hitsory has proven wrong.
Your claim is false. Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and obey him. Your claim that "A fervent desire to do the right thing will never lead to the opposite effect" has no basis. A person who cares about doing the right thing is certainly far more likely to do the right thing than say an atheist who doesn't even believe that absolute morals exist.
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We are talking about single people who in their "fervent desire" to DO something against what they feel is an incredible wrong, overshoot or misjudge.
Sorry, you were saying it is ok for a Christian to kill an abortion doctor because an abortion doctor is a murderer and so a Christian might consider it killing instead of murder.
But the New Testament does not authorize Christians to kill, punish, or torture sinners for their sin so your claim was false.
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Paper doesn't blush. It doesn't matter what the bible says - what the people do matters.
Sure it does. We are talking about Christian theology, not atheist wishful thinking.
Christians don't murder. Period. Anyone who claims to be a Christian who murders is a liar according to the Bible. What you claim has no relevance. The Bible establishes who is a Christian, not atheists.
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. However, CHRISTIANITY ITSELF has proven over the course of history that not only there are different interpreations of the word of god, but Christians have been MURDERING each other for it.
Sorry, you were complaining about Christians claiming to know right from wrong. Like I said, God has given us his Word and his Spirit. His Word is pretty clear about what is right and wrong. I'm sorry atheists don't believe in the concept of right and wrong except what is voted on by society as being right or wrong. That does not mean that right and wrong don't exist.
And there are very very few difficult to interpret passages. You have to have a desire to know the truth and read things in the context of the passage and book though. And a non-believer can't understand meanings beyond the surface level of the Bible but the moral teachings are quite plain.
And you keep making the false claim that Christians can murder. Jesus said there would be wolves in sheep's clothing.
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
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TheDeath
Responsible
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with serious business
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posted August 30, 2009 05:12 PM |
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Let me explain. Killing is killing. You take somebody's life, it doesn't matter the why.
Speaking from a cozy safe environment are we? Tell that even to cops who risk their lives all day and if some wacko decides to shoot like crazy, they should absolutely never open fire, am I right? I mean they may kill the guy!
Or if a guy comes in and wants to kill you, and the only option is to cut his throat (he overpowers you)... I mean let him kill you, otherwise you would be a murderer, in the same category as any psychopath who goes on with random killing, right?
I mean, killing is killing...
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But isn't this what the bible says: That a christian shouldn't murder?
yes because if he does he's no Christian anymore.
A digital computer should not have analog computational capabilities. If it does, it's not digital anymore (maybe a hybrid). 
It's a matter of definition.
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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Kraken
Famous Hero
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posted August 30, 2009 05:33 PM |
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The Bible also says, an Eye for an Eye, a Tooth for a Tooth.
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Vini Vidi Vici
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bixie
Promising
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my common sense is tingling!
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posted August 30, 2009 06:22 PM |
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The Bible also says, an Eye for an Eye, a Tooth for a Tooth.
and we all end up blind and using straws.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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Lexxan
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posted August 30, 2009 08:45 PM |
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The Bible also says, an Eye for an Eye, a Tooth for a Tooth.
Actually, it's Hammurabi's Code which said that.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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JollyJoker
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posted August 30, 2009 09:25 PM |
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Quote:
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Another absolute claim that hitsory has proven wrong.
Your claim is false. Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and obey him. Your claim that "A fervent desire to do the right thing will never lead to the opposite effect" has no basis. A person who cares about doing the right thing is certainly far more likely to do the right thing than say an atheist who doesn't even believe that absolute morals exist.
The Italics was what you said in your last post, and it is wrong - it has led to things like the Inquisition for example.
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We are talking about single people who in their "fervent desire" to DO something against what they feel is an incredible wrong, overshoot or misjudge.
Sorry, you were saying it is ok for a Christian to kill an abortion doctor because an abortion doctor is a murderer and so a Christian might consider it killing instead of murder.
That is untrue and dishonest, probably a deliberate lie - what I said was:
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For a Christian, then, is an abortion doctor an innocent person? Hardly; for all intents and purposes he is a mass-murderer of little babies, so killing one wouldn't fall under the definition of murder. At this point, it suffices to say, that quite obviously that definition of murder simply isn't enough to exclude those docs from being fair game for killing, not murdering.
You see: I said UNDER YOUR DEFINITION OF MURDER, killing an abortion doc WOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED MURDER. And the consequence was that I said, that your definition of murder isn't enough.
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Paper doesn't blush. It doesn't matter what the bible says - what the people do matters.
Sure it does. We are talking about Christian theology, not atheist wishful thinking.
Christians don't murder. Period. Anyone who claims to be a Christian who murders is a liar according to the Bible. What you claim has no relevance. The Bible establishes who is a Christian, not atheists.
I will say this for the last time: a Christian is someone who believes in Jesus Christ as the son of god and that he died for our sins to save us. PERIOD. Apart from that even Christians are humans, and as such they can err and they can sin - that's why JEsus supposedly DID die. Whether YOU like that or not.
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. However, CHRISTIANITY ITSELF has proven over the course of history that not only there are different interpreations of the word of god, but Christians have been MURDERING each other for it.
Sorry, you were complaining about Christians claiming to know right from wrong. Like I said, God has given us his Word and his Spirit. His Word is pretty clear about what is right and wrong. I'm sorry atheists don't believe in the concept of right and wrong except what is voted on by society as being right or wrong. That does not mean that right and wrong don't exist.
And there are very very few difficult to interpret passages. You have to have a desire to know the truth and read things in the context of the passage and book though. And a non-believer can't understand meanings beyond the surface level of the Bible but the moral teachings are quite plain.
And you keep making the false claim that Christians can murder. Jesus said there would be wolves in sheep's clothing.
I fail to see any connection to the fact that Christians in the course of history have bashed in their skulls and murdered each other due to differences in bible interpretation, claiming each they were the only ones knowing right from wrong correctly and your ramblings here.
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Elodin
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posted August 30, 2009 09:41 PM |
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The Italics was what you said in your last post, and it is wrong - it has led to things like the Inquisition for example
Sorry, the desire to do good does not lead to one doing evil.
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For a Christian, then, is an abortion doctor an innocent person? Hardly; for all intents and purposes he is a mass-murderer of little babies, so killing one wouldn't fall under the definition of murder. At this point, it suffices to say, that quite obviously that definition of murder simply isn't enough to exclude those docs from being fair game for killing, not murdering.
No, I din't lie. Above is the quote of what you said. You have been saying all along that some Christians think it is ok to kill abortion doctors bcause they dont' think it is murder.
But the Bible quite plainly says that no murderer has eternal life and says that it is the responsibility of the state to punish evil doers. No New Testament Scripture gives a Christian any authority to torture, punish, or kill a sinner for his sin.
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I will say this for the last time: a Christian is someone who believes in Jesus Christ as the son of god and that he died for our sins to save us. PERIOD. Apart from that even Christians are humans, and as such they can err and they can sin - that's why JEsus supposedly DID die. Whether YOU like that or not.
It is strange for a non-believer to keep insisting that he is the authority on Christian theology. The Bible disagrees with your position.
Jesus quite plainly said if you are not following his teachings you are not his. I quoted numerous verses already that testify to this.
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Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
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Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
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I fail to see any connection to the fact that Christians in the course of history have bashed in their skulls and murdered each other due to differences in bible interpretation, claiming each they were the only ones knowing right from wrong correctly and your ramblings here.
Sorry, Jesus said those sorts of people are wolves in sheeps clothing, not Christians.
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alcibiades
Honorable
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posted August 30, 2009 09:50 PM |
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Quote:
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But isn't this what the bible says: That a christian shouldn't murder?
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Exactly, this is my point. The point of this is that if you murder, you'll not get eternal life, i.e. you've been a bad christian.
However, that's not the same as saying that anybody who murders is by default not christian. It just means you should not do it.
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Elodin
Promising
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posted August 30, 2009 11:48 PM |
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No, the context of the passage is about people claiming to be Christins who are not.
All throughout the epistle of 1John he has a lot to say about people claiming to be Christians who are not.
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1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jn 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth [continues to live a sinful life] sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1Jn 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 31, 2009 08:18 AM |
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Sorry, the desire to do good does not lead to one doing evil.
Obviously wrong. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions". EVERYONE knows that except you.
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For a Christian, then, is an abortion doctor an innocent person? Hardly; for all intents and purposes he is a mass-murderer of little babies, so killing one wouldn't fall under the definition of murder. At this point, it suffices to say, that quite obviously that definition of murder simply isn't enough to exclude those docs from being fair game for killing, not murdering.
No, I din't lie. Above is the quote of what you said. You have been saying all along that some Christians think it is ok to kill abortion doctors bcause they dont' think it is murder.
You did lie because that's not true. YOU feared it would come to that all along, that's why you say it all along, but that doesn't make it true. True is, that under YOUR definition of "murder" killing an abortion doc would not be murder. To come out of that narrow, you then bang on about how the bible doesn't allow normal people to punish or torture sinners, but the bible does not forbid to try and safe lifes. Killing a murderer first and formost means, that they can't murder anymore, and I fail to see where the bible would say that people are not allowed to do that. It has nothing to do with punishing a sinner, nor with torturing and so on. It simply has to do with STOPPING ONGOING MURDER, and now show me where the bible is forbidding THAT.
Not that it would be important.
A Christian is NOT someone who isn't sinning - you know that is impossible. A Christian may TRY TO, but it's simply not enough for a Christian to just try and avoid doing bad things - a Christian should try to do good things as well: if a Christian sees wrong done, it wouldn't be right to just stand there and start mantra-ing "I won't sin, I won't sin". A Christian is supposed to ACT in the face of wrong.
So no matter WHAT the bible says, "the laws of god will always be broken", which is what sinning is. It's unavoidable, after all that's what Jesus died for. However, it would be folly to exclude people from being Christian just because they sinned: there would be no Christians left anymore because there simply is no one without sin.
Sin includes the error in judgement to mistake murdering for killing. That is as clear as something can be, no matter what the Bible says.
Period.
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I will say this for the last time: a Christian is someone who believes in Jesus Christ as the son of god and that he died for our sins to save us. PERIOD. Apart from that even Christians are humans, and as such they can err and they can sin - that's why JEsus supposedly DID die. Whether YOU like that or not.
It is strange for a non-believer to keep insisting that he is the authority on Christian theology. The Bible disagrees with your position.
Jesus quite plainly said if you are not following his teachings you are not his. I quoted numerous verses already that testify to this.
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I fail to see any connection to the fact that Christians in the course of history have bashed in their skulls and murdered each other due to differences in bible interpretation, claiming each they were the only ones knowing right from wrong correctly and your ramblings here.
Sorry, Jesus said those sorts of people are wolves in sheeps clothing, not Christians.
All irrelevant for the point. Your first point here in this post, the one with the desire to do good that can lead only to good and not to evil, is obviously wrong, proven over history and basically every day. To insist on it, in the face of facts, is an example for how easy it is to become BLIND for the truth and to believe in something wrong, ERRING. And sometimes one leads to the other. YOU demonstrate how easy it is to believe in something because it SHOULD be so, even though it's obviously and plainly not so.
And you'll go on and fight for this false belief and claim it again and again... Wanting to do good has never been a guarantee that things would turn out good as well, and neither has the belief to be right ever been a guarantee against error.
No, Elodin, quoting the bible won't help you here.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted August 31, 2009 08:29 AM |
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I always thought murder applies to humans. If you kill a pig for meat, it's not murder.
Hehe, it was just a figure of speach. Besides I didn't say "Thou shall not kill a chicken." but "Thou shall not Chicken" (ie the sentence is complete nonsense and means nothing).
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Message received.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted August 31, 2009 08:36 AM |
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Speaking from a cozy safe environment are we? Tell that even to cops who risk their lives all day and if some wacko decides to shoot like crazy, they should absolutely never open fire, am I right? I mean they may kill the guy!
Or if a guy comes in and wants to kill you, and the only option is to cut his throat (he overpowers you)... I mean let him kill you, otherwise you would be a murderer, in the same category as any psychopath who goes on with random killing, right?
I mean, killing is killing...
Hmm I seem to remember covering that. Guess I got senoritis or something. As I said, this falls under the "Give unto god what is gods, and give unto ceasars what is ceasars" thing for the police. For civilians, it is the 'contrite spirit' clause. They would be honestly sad that they were forced to do so, and I do not believe god would punish them for it.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted August 31, 2009 09:51 AM |
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Sorry, the desire to do good does not lead to one doing evil.
Obviously wrong. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions". EVERYONE knows that except you.
Your "reasoning" is clearly unsound. The desire to do good will lead to one doing good. The desire to do evil will lead one to do evil. If you have a desire to eat chocolate ice cream you will go to the toilet and start drinking instead of going and getting some ice cream out of the fridge. At least I hope you don't do that. If you do, please brush your teeth and use a strong mouthwash. 
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You did lie because that's not true.
My dear sir, you seem to have trouble distinguishing the truth from a lie. You have in fact been constantly trying to link Christianity to terrorism and said the murderer of an abortion doctor thinks it is ok because th doctor is a murderer in his eyes.
I showed your claims were untrue. The New Testament has no provision that allows Christians to torture, punish, or kill sinners for their sin. I proved that the New Testament says it is the job of the state to punish evil doers. It is not the job of the church or individual Christians. So certainly no Christin will be under the impression that killing abortion doctors is ok.
Perhaps you should consider actually reading the New Testament instead of dreaming up ideas of what you think the New Testament teaches.
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. To come out of that narrow, you then bang on about how the bible doesn't allow normal people to punish or torture sinners, but the bible does not forbid to try and safe lifes.
My good sir, anyone a liar if he claims the New Testament provides any justification for a Christian killing an abortion doctor just because he is a murderer. I suggest that you actually read the New Testament so you won't believe what some random liar on anti-Christians sites writes in his blog.
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Killing a murderer first and formost means, that they can't murder anymore, and I fail to see where the bible would say that people are not allowed to do that.
Sir, perhaps you should read my posts more closely or obtain the aid of a reading comprehension tutor if you require one. I have repeatedly stated it is the job of the state to punish evil doers. I also quoted the book of Romans that establishes that fact. Again, the New Testament provides no authorization for the church or individual Christians to kill, torture, or punish any sinner because of his sin.
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Not that it would be important.
I agree that you don't appear to care at all about what the Bible actually says about the issues. But you seem to make claims about what the Bible teaches quite freely.
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Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
I certainly agree that a Christian is not perfect. But the New Testament clearly states a Christian will not murder. I have clearly established that fact. Read back a few posts and see that I established that absolutely the context of the verse in question with my quoting of numerous other verses in the epistle of 1John.
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All irrelevant for the point.
I'm sorry, but it is exactly the point as to who the Bible says is a Christian and who is not. Jesus said quite plainly that if you don't follow his teaching you are not his. YOU DON'T GET TO DEFINE WHO IS A CHRISTIAN. JESUS DEFINED THAT HIMSELF.
Feel free to start your own religion and define your followers however you wish.
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