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Garbax
Hired Hero
Struggling with RL
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posted June 19, 2007 10:09 PM |
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Edited by Garbax at 22:14, 19 Jun 2007.
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Quote:
So I doubt anyone is going to sum up all aspects of the Bible in a post. Regarding your post however, I take it you are refering to people going to hell for not giving their life to Christ (if I understand you wrong this won't be a good reply and maybe isn't anyways ). Some people can imagine a world in which people have free will and follow someone else's will completely, that just doesn't make sense to me. God gave us free will which led to sin. Sin led to us being seperated from God and the world being corrupted (and probably a lot more stuff ). God them offers to save us from our mistakes but that whole free will thing means he won't force us to do anything. God doen't punish us for disagreeing with him. It's much more like a fire-fighter trying to save someone from a burning building. The fire-fighter wants to get the person out, but if the person refuses than it will be bad for them.
Well, being a perfect God and creating something that corrupted itself is not the best start for Him, also, He places the elements that ultimately corrupt creation in the Garden, this being free will itself, The tree of the Knowledge of good and evil (if i recall correctly that was the name of the tree), and the snake.
He doesnīt punish us? If we think or feel otherwise as He says, well, there is a lake of fire and sulfur waiting for us, to burn for all Eternity, that pretty much sounds like punishment to me.
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Yeah but we are not "kids" and should think of our consequences.
But we are brain-damaged, arenīt we?
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Besides He DOES warn us (or Did). If we let our greed or curiosity sneak over the warning, we should expect consequences.Quote:
The thing is: Why He then inscribes into our own instincts those desires? Let two children alone playing, it wonīt be much time after they begin to fight for the toys the other one has, one can only assume that greed comes with us, we are created with greed, even Eve before she took the fruit of that tree, she had greed in her heart, she wished to be like God.
All of this makes me assume that He builds us with those flaws and inner desires and then dooms us for acting upon those desires, Perfect...
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If you force a criminal to be good will only make him worse. (and absolutely not less evil)
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be kept by understanding.
Itīs quite hard to be good when He builds you with evil desires, itīs like asking the water to be oil, He forces us to be good through punishment, which many religious folk tend to disguise as "discipline"
And yes, peace is built understanding the other, but thatīs something the Lord must know, reason why it still puzzles me why he ordered the annhilation of a whole ethnie, the caananites (not sure if spelled correctly BTW).
____________
Love is not blind, is retarded
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted June 19, 2007 10:24 PM |
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This is what makes me "laughing" all the time.
You all really believe there were a bunch full of old "wise" men who got in "contact" with the holy ghost and wrote down a text. Then they all met somewhere, put their text together and wrote "BIBLE" on it, and now everything is fine?
Incredible.
But this is exactly how sects work. All u need is a charismatical orator who is good with words, and tons of gullible people. It did work not only with catholics, but also with Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientology and many others. Same procedure in all of them.
A dozen of answers why God didn't wrote it down?
This also is funny. How dare you all "believers" think you KNOW the motivations of a so called "God" doing this or that?
I never saw or heard anyhting about "God said to me he will never write anything by himself or send full stuff down to earth, because of this and because of that..."
Mankind will always claim something from "another world" if it is not (yet) able to explain something.
Just imagine Christopher Columbus would have reached america, and the indians he found there would have had a BOSE soundsystem hidden on a tree. The leader of them indians would have spoken into a micro and all the "newcomers" from europe could have heard his voice throughout a tree with immense loudness.
Don't u think they would have thought he is a god or something?
Or remember all the witch hunts in middle ages. Most of them witches and wizzards were nothing else but good chemists and physicists. They knew how to put 2 different stuffs together with great visual effect. But most of mankind that time didn't had knowledge about that, so they thought this is "from hell"...."diabolic". Weren't these the words from all the "church" people? Nowadays we laugh about these chemical "phenomenons" because our knowledge is higher.
So I am pretty sure, the more knowledge mankind gets, the lesser "believers" we will have.
Better believe in yourself and in your strength / abilities than rely on a celestial being which you will prolly never meet.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted June 19, 2007 10:38 PM |
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Quote:
I never saw or heard anyhting about "God said to me he will never write anything by himself or send full stuff down to earth, because of this and because of that..."
Well I'm sure you dismissed all of those "anything" (and of course I really mean it "Anything"  ) as illusions, so hence you didn't "saw", "heard" or felt those things because you didn't think they were. (this was only an example btw)..
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Mankind will always claim something from "another world" if it is not (yet) able to explain something.
You see, that's the problem. What does mankind mean? The majority? I hope so. Because if there's a man that, for example, has some new senses or has experienced something incredible (for example, time travel), would his 'proofs' count at all? If the others can't grasp them, of course NOT! So proof = what the majority can understand.
If there was only 1 man which needed to explain how calculus works to monkeys (for example!), of course monkeys would look at him weird and say his logic is absurd 
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Or remember all the witch hunts in middle ages. Most of them witches and wizzards were nothing else but good chemists and physicists. They knew how to put 2 different stuffs together with great visual effect. But most of mankind that time didn't had knowledge about that, so they thought this is "from hell"...."diabolic". Weren't these the words from all the "church" people? Nowadays we laugh about these chemical "phenomenons" because our knowledge is higher.
And sure, nowadays we know everything.. same said people years ago 
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Better believe in yourself and in your strength / abilities than rely on a celestial being which you will prolly never meet.
Or believe in scienstist's words, if you're unable to understand what they're doing
Just for a more cooler discussion (I hope) here's proof that God exists (by Euler, the famous mathmatician ):
a+b^n
----- = x
n
hence God exists!! (^ stands for raised to the power)
well, if you have different logic then it's false
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Garbax
Hired Hero
Struggling with RL
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posted June 19, 2007 11:09 PM |
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TheDeath, may i ask you a couple of questions?
Would you believe a time traveler (or something of sorts) that doesnīt have any proofs other than saying "i am a time traveler, believe me or iīll smack you up!"?
Would you pin all your hopes in believing "yes, he really is a time traveler, even though he has no proof"?
Just wondering...
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted June 19, 2007 11:16 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 23:22, 19 Jun 2007.
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Quote:
TheDeath, may i ask you a couple of questions?
Would you believe a time traveler (or something of sorts) that doesnīt have any proofs other than saying "i am a time traveler, believe me or iīll smack you up!"?
Would you pin all your hopes in believing "yes, he really is a time traveler, even though he has no proof"?
Just wondering...
That's exactly why I have used the term "time traveller" and not God. I admit religious people may or may not believe as well. I wasn't trying to explain God, but rather the sense of proof.
Sure as long as it's transmitted over the news/media it's proof, right? Or at least if it's written on paper and has the word "Science" or "scientifical" written on it.
Honestly I can't prove all the math formulas I know, but I still "believe" in them.
And yes I am really tired of this thread, as you can see I have a different tone, more "light" right now (I'm talking about me before baklava's threadbane and all that).
EDIT: Besides, what if he REALLY WAS a time traveller? Of course "believing" in him would be perhaps blind (from a certain point of view), HOWEVER how can you be so sure he is not a time traveller?
You don't know if he is, but you don't know if he isn't either. Some people will perhaps believe him. Why would you want to call them "I can't believe you actually believe in that!", it sounds as if you already know that he is not a time traveller. Because you already know everything...
To sum it up:
atheist --> knows for sure there isn't a God.
agnostic --> there can or cannot be a God.. doesn't know either way
theist --> knows for sure that there is a God.
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted June 19, 2007 11:44 PM |
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just a note...
extraordinairy claims require extraordinairy proof
just because most people can't prove certain scientific axioms and whatever, doesn't mean that if they are taught FACTS they can't reach a point where they will be able to prove them ...with matters of faith, its one leap after the other
and for the record, since its impossible to prove whether or not gods exist, atheist is one who believes for sure there are no gods ...likewise, a theist is someone who believes for sure there are gods (no, theists are not exclusively christian - with or without lowercase C) ...in that aspect, i am agnostic ...but as i said in my first post in this thread, if there is a god, he/she/it has done nothing worthy of my worship
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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Garbax
Hired Hero
Struggling with RL
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posted June 20, 2007 07:40 AM |
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Edited by Garbax at 07:41, 20 Jun 2007.
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Sorry i didnīt replied you TheDeath, had to be at my father birthday and when i read your post i donīt know what happened but the browser couldnīt find the page where you get to write your reply, donīt know if i reached my posting limit or or the browser had a problem with the server or whatever, anyway Lith-Maethor already said what i was intending to say so...
On the time traveler thing, i honestly couldnīt tell whether he is or not a time traveler if he has no proof, i just have to rely on the fact that is very unlikely (or at least not common), that he could be a time traveler, the odds of that being true are near zero, and thatīs being optimistic. Itīs more probable that he is trying to deceiveww people or making some kind of hoax like Randi and Carlos the Psychic did several years ago to demonstrate that all those sensual (i.e: based on the sensations) religions are a hoax or at least could be.
Maybe we donīt know and there hundreds of time travelers among us, but since i donīt have that kind of information, i just can rely on what i know and what i have seen.
BTW, Lith-Maethor, if i recall correctly, you said earlier that there would be like a 1% of the people reading this thread changing his/her religion or at least the way they see life, well i guess iīm part of that 1%, from evangelical to agnostic!
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Love is not blind, is retarded
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted June 20, 2007 08:19 AM |
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Quote:
Well, being a perfect God and creating something that corrupted itself is not the best start for Him, also, He places the elements that ultimately corrupt creation in the Garden, this being free will itself, The tree of the Knowledge of good and evil (if i recall correctly that was the name of the tree), and the snake.
He doesnīt punish us? If we think or feel otherwise as He says, well, there is a lake of fire and sulfur waiting for us, to burn for all Eternity, that pretty much sounds like punishment to me.
Probably the best way I've heard it put.
God created something that corrupts itself.
Not matter how you look at it.
If you create a computer program exactly how you want it, and you know exactly what the program is going to do, you are, by definition, programming the program (so to speak) to do what you want it to do, even if you can call what it's doing 'free will', it's still YOUR WILL because you programmed it to do that (making it how you want and knowing what it will do). So if you make a program that self destructs after x number of years, why then send the program to hell for doing what you made it do?
Istari:
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I'm trying to understand where you are coming from here, and I'm not sure I get it all. I take it that you think God created traps to lure us away from him. I just can't get there though. God being callous enough to lure us away from Him doesn't seem to fit with Him loving us enough to die on the cross to bring us back to Him. I'm not sure what you've seen in life to lead you to the conclusion that God wants us to fail. I've seen that failing is easy enough without any divine assistance.
It's god's fault that satan exists, for a start.
As said..
Why doesn't god stop evil?
If it is because he does not know of it, then he is not omniscient.
If it is because he cannot stop it, then he is not omnipotent.
If it is because he does not want to stop it, then he is not benevolent.
Even though the bible states that he is not all loving, people still seem to cling to the idea that he is
The Death:
Quote:
something like:
"God doesn't exist, I can't see him!"
"God exists, because I see him!"
"No, you're not, how can you possibly believe that?"
"How can you possibly believe I can't see him?"
"Because I can't see him..."
"There is a condition worse than blindness, and that is, seeing something that isn't there.
-L. Ron Hubbard
That man then went on to create his own religion, what we now call Scientology
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John says to live above hell.
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Tenaka
Famous Hero
Makes sense
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posted June 20, 2007 01:07 PM |
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Quote:
God created something that corrupts itself.
Not matter how you look at it.
If you create a computer program exactly how you want it, and you know exactly what the program is going to do, you are, by definition, programming the program (so to speak) to do what you want it to do, even if you can call what it's doing 'free will', it's still YOUR WILL because you programmed it to do that (making it how you want and knowing what it will do). So if you make a program that self destructs after x number of years, why then send the program to hell for doing what you made it do?
Uh...new way of looking at it! A human is NOT a computer program...That's pretty much the point of free will...God made us, but our minds can develop themselves. That's why I, for instance, do not agree with you right now. See? If we were both the same computer programs - like we are both humans - we'd have exactly the same opinion.
That's why, if one makes the wrong decisions, he goes to hell.
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It's god's fault that satan exists, for a start.
As said..
Why doesn't god stop evil?
If it is because he does not know of it, then he is not omniscient.
If it is because he cannot stop it, then he is not omnipotent.
If it is because he does not want to stop it, then he is not benevolent.
Even though the bible states that he is not all loving, people still seem to cling to the idea that he is.
It wasn't God's fault that Satan exists, for a start.
Satan envied God, tried to become as powerful as him, and was kicked off his cloud for it. He was, in a way, the very first sin.
And 2: Satan is not as powerful as God, as illustrated in the book of Job, where Satan asks for God's permission. Obviously, God knows of him, wether or not he knew it already before that.
God does not stop him, because many people still choose to follow Satan (sins), thus destroying/imprisoning/etc, would take man's free will.
Thank you.
Tenaka
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted June 20, 2007 01:24 PM |
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Quote:
It wasn't God's fault that Satan exists, for a start.
Satan envied God, tried to become as powerful as him, and was kicked off his cloud for it. He was, in a way, the very first sin.
This is interesting.
Isn't God the creator of all? Wasn't he the first being?
How else than by his hand/will could there be Satan? Or the other Archangels?
Wasn't the first sin the snake in paradise?
Or was Satan present before Adam & Eve?
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted June 20, 2007 02:27 PM |
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Quote:
Uh...new way of looking at it! A human is NOT a computer program...That's pretty much the point of free will...God made us, but our minds can develop themselves. That's why I, for instance, do not agree with you right now. See? If we were both the same computer programs - like we are both humans - we'd have exactly the same opinion.
That's why, if one makes the wrong decisions, he goes to hell.
You seem to have missed the point of the metaphor completely.
I didn't say we are computer programs... I'll leave that to The Death
I'm saying if god knew exactly what we were going to do, and created us perfectly and specifically, he could do nothing else than create us to do what we are doing now.
There is no such thing as free will with someone who is omniscient and omnipotent, so that means the only reason we do evil is because god intended it.
If we do something that god doesn't intend, then it is his fault, because he made us, knowing full well that we would do that. He made us specifically, HENCE, he MUST have made us SPECIFICALLY to do that ONE THING, be it evil or not. Hence, everything we do is gods fault. Hence, there is no free will if god is omniscient and omnipotent. Hence, QED.
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It wasn't God's fault that Satan exists, for a start.
Satan envied God, tried to become as powerful as him, and was kicked off his cloud for it. He was, in a way, the very first sin.
Ok I accept that. Even though I explained before why god is responsible for all sin, but ok ignoring that I understand that satan is there because satan wanted to be.
But if satan is the root of all evil, then if god is benevolent and omnipotent then he could easily stop satan. But he likes him As you said yourself. He wants satan there.
And yes Angelito I guess god did create satan but regardless of that he allows him to exist so that's just as bad..
____________
John says to live above hell.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted June 20, 2007 04:47 PM |
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If Satan didn't exist God wouldn't have anyone to play Heroes with...
The angels just kept letting him win, so when one day this Satanael guy won, he got horns and stuff and God was like "cool, you'll be inferno" and that's where it all started.
Somewhere among all that Allah came along, he plays Academy; and probably Buddha with Sylvan. The Grim Reaper goes in too with the Necropolis, Odin&Co. choose dwarves, John Travolta picks Dark Elves, and now they're just waiting for TotE to come out so that Manitu can take the orcs and the Apocalypse can begin...
While waiting, they decided it might be fun to kill time with going RL once in a while, just to stage a world war or a crusade or something, and then get back to discussing which is the most useful tier 5 unit.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Garbax
Hired Hero
Struggling with RL
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posted June 20, 2007 04:48 PM |
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Edited by Garbax at 17:21, 20 Jun 2007.
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Quote:
It wasn't God's fault that Satan exists, for a start.
Satan envied God, tried to become as powerful as him, and was kicked off his cloud for it. He was, in a way, the very first sin.
And 2: Satan is not as powerful as God, as illustrated in the book of Job, where Satan asks for God's permission. Obviously, God knows of him, wether or not he knew it already before that.
God does not stop him, because many people still choose to follow Satan (sins), thus destroying/imprisoning/etc, would take man's free will.
Thank you.
Tenaka
Nonetheless, Satan still shows up and reports to the Big Guy!
Curious, isn't? Thats the kind of thing you get to see between a worker and his boss!
Not only that but He even gambled with Satan whether Job would spit in God face without his treasures
EDIT: It seems that what Chairman Yang of Alpha Centauri glory said was true!
He said "Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only God does plays dice, the dice are loaded."
Charirman Sheng-Ji Yang. Looking God in the eye"
Man the writers of that game were great, not to say visionaries!!!
Long live SMAC!
End of EDIT
From the looks of it, it seems that there is some kind of agreement or at least He didn't kicked him right away from his cloud
In fact, it seems they do might like each other!
So far not so good for Him
Quote:
This is interesting.
Isn't God the creator of all? Wasn't he the first being?
How else than by his hand/will could there be Satan? Or the other Archangels?
Wasn't the first sin the snake in paradise?
Or was Satan present before Adam & Eve?
According to the Bible:
God is the first being and created all (flawed by the way).
God, in fact, created Lucifer, which later on became Satan. And he was a Cherubin (not sure about the spelling)
In the Bible, the book that comes after Jeremiah (Is "Ezequiel" in spanish, not sure in english), it seems that the first sin was Lucifer pride and greed
And yes, Satan was before Adam and Eve.
I bolded greed because, once again, it seems that iit is a constant flaw in creation.
Maybe God is greedy after all, and he doesn't wants us to be greedy so that we don't tamper on his interests...
So far even worse for Him...
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And yes Angelito I guess god did create satan but regardless of that he allows him to exist so that's just as bad..
Not only that but He could have chosen not to create Satan in the first place, but alas, they even have a contract!
God: "You tempt them, if they fall, I'LL BURN THEM FOR ETERNITY"
Satan:"What do i get?"
God:"You don't get to be alone in the hell i'll send you down"
Satan:"Good enough for me"
God:"Am i not a loving God?"
Satan:"Yes you are"
____________
Love is not blind, is retarded
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted June 20, 2007 05:02 PM |
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Garbax, you are SO TitaniumAlloy's second account...
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Garbax
Hired Hero
Struggling with RL
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posted June 20, 2007 05:12 PM |
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Garbax, you are SO TitaniumAlloy's second account...
LOL, dear heavens, no!
I think we may write similarly because i had (or have) the same doubts that he once had (or still has, i dunno), it's the same way of thinking in some aspects.
Even so, I don't negate the existence of a God, it's just that it can't be the morally wrong God from the Bible.
To simply put, i gave up on believing what the Bible said was true and therefore it's conception of God...
God maybe is still out there, waiting for us to find Him, i don't know...
And by the way, my elder brother writes just like TA, maybe i got it from there
____________
Love is not blind, is retarded
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted June 20, 2007 05:51 PM |
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Quote:
Even so, I don't negate the existence of a God, it's just that it can't be the morally wrong God from the Bible.
To simply put, i gave up on believing what the Bible said was true and therefore it's conception of God...
Ah. That's ok then.
What pisses me off about TitaniumAlloy is that he, by proving the Abrahamic God doesn't exist (like that's a hard thing to do ) negates possible existance of ANY god(s) which is just ridiculous.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Tenaka
Famous Hero
Makes sense
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posted June 20, 2007 06:00 PM |
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I'll just let go of the fact that you just ignored everything I wrote (or didn't fully understand it)...
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Nonetheless, Satan still shows up and reports to the Big Guy!
Of course! In my last post, I wrote God can't stop Lucifer, because it would take away man's free will. Yet, Lucifer wouldn't be allowed to interfere directly without God's permission. As far as I know, he always manipulated man.
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Not only that but He even gambled with Satan whether Job would spit in God face without his treasures
Not really...
I'd rather say that God trusted Job...Not quite the same...In fact, gambling is far from the same. God did not offer Satan something if Job would 'fail'.
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In fact, it seems they do might like each other!
Uh...Even from your point of view, this makes no sense. Does gambling make two people friends?
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God is the first being and created all (flawed by the way).
How is that flawed, besides the overly-used 'Oh, and where did he come from?'
Quote:
Maybe God is greedy after all, and he doesn't wants us to be greedy so that we don't tamper on his interests...
Again, you're not making any sense! How did you even come to that conclusion?
Quote:
Not only that but He could have chosen not to create Satan in the first place, but alas, they even have a contract!
Yes, about the whol 'Satan creation'...
Let's have a look at free will again. If God gives it to all of his creations (or at least menkind), of course he'd give it to this creation too, no? So we can assume that angels, archangels,etc, have free will. And when things have free will, it goes wrong...
 Here we have our sin
So, God created Lucifer, but not the way he became later. He was consumed by greed, and sinned.
And got kicked off his cloud!
Quote:
God: "You tempt them, if they fall, I'LL BURN THEM FOR ETERNITY"
Satan:"What do i get?"
God:"You don't get to be alone in the hell i'll send you down"
Satan:"Good enough for me"
God:"Am i not a loving God?"
Satan: "Yes you are"
I'm not even going to reply to that...I think you got my point by now...
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Garbax
Hired Hero
Struggling with RL
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posted June 20, 2007 06:10 PM |
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Edited by Garbax at 18:14, 20 Jun 2007.
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Ah. That's ok then.
What pisses me off about TitaniumAlloy is that he, by proving the Abrahamic God doesn't exist (like that's a hard thing to do ) negates possible existance of ANY god(s) which is just ridiculous.
Is always a possibility that He (or Them), may exist or may not exist. I, for one, in my believing times, saw many a possesion and things as such, seeing that kind of things makes me think that there are evil presences (not sure if it is a word), in the world, trying to do us harm. It's quite hard for me, and a little reckless i might add, to say say "There is no God" when i have seen evil manifest itself in this forms, after all, Is there is this evil, why it would be impossible to be any kind of God or higher spirit, striving for good?
For me is still too soon to draw an absolute conclusion, but for now, i don't belong in any kind of organized religion, though some of the ideal they preach can be good sometimes, just not the judging and the manipulation part, i really hate that!
____________
Love is not blind, is retarded
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Garbax
Hired Hero
Struggling with RL
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posted June 20, 2007 06:42 PM |
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Of course! In my last post, I wrote God can't stop Lucifer, because it would take away man's free will. Yet, Lucifer wouldn't be allowed to interfere directly without God's permission. As far as I know, he always manipulated man.
But aren't they supposed to be enemies? How come that Satan must ask a permission to do something if they are enemies? That sounds more like the relationship between boss and subordinate than that of enemies
On the other side: Being God All loving, He gives the permission to Satan to act, even knowing that is going to do something nasty?
For me that's even nastier!
Quote:
Not really...
I'd rather say that God trusted Job...Not quite the same...In fact, gambling is far from the same. God did not offer Satan something if Job would 'fail'.
Satan would have Job's Soul handed down and God would have got to show off like He always does, it really looks like a bet to me
In fact, IIRC, God was the one started it by saying "Have you seen my servant Job..."
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In fact, it seems they do might like each other!
Quote:
Uh...Even from your point of view, this makes no sense. Does gambling make two people friends?
Well, you got me there, gambling can be made even between enemies, so it's my bad.
Still, they're Boss and subordinate...
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God is the first being and created all (flawed by the way).
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How is that flawed, besides the overly-used 'Oh, and where did he come from?'
Well, at least in my opinion, a creation that starts marching itself to doom isn't quite a perfect creation, it's at least flawed in some things, like the ever present greed that doomed everything, for example...
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Again, you're not making any sense! How did you even come to that conclusion?
Well then would you care to explain me why there was greed in the heavens (In Satan and the third of angels that left with him) and down on earth (With Eve being greedy even before biting the Forbidden Fruit)? After all, we are done to His image (Sorry if i didn't say it right, i read the bible in spanish)
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Yes, about the whol 'Satan creation'...
Let's have a look at free will again. If God gives it to all of his creations (or at least menkind), of course he'd give it to this creation too, no? So we can assume that angels, archangels,etc, have free will. And when things have free will, it goes wrong...
Here we have our sin
So, God created Lucifer, but not the way he became later. He was consumed by greed, and sinned.
And got kicked off his cloud!
Well, making a being that ultimately will help and defile all creation was not the wisest thing to do, not to say good or lovable...
And the worst thing is He knew that it was going to turn out like this, after all, He chose us before the foundation of the world
It could be argued that Satan was created with that purpose but that's just another topic that has already been discussed to death
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God: "You tempt them, if they fall, I'LL BURN THEM FOR ETERNITY"
Satan:"What do i get?"
God:"You don't get to be alone in the hell i'll send you down"
Satan:"Good enough for me"
God:"Am i not a loving God?"
Satan: "Yes you are"
I'm not even going to reply to that...I think you got my point by now...
Well, i admit that i was a little bit offending there, sorry if it made you angry...
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Love is not blind, is retarded
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted June 20, 2007 06:49 PM |
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Tenaka...
you are running in circles...
acording to dogma, God created everything, this includes the ever popular Lightbringer
an omnipotent being, would have the power (by the very definition of the word) to remove the threat of evil and sinning, without messing with free will... again, being all-powerful, pretty much guarantees god can do whatever god wants, end of story
an omnibenevolent being (or a simply benevolent one) that is also omnipotent, would have every reason to do what I said above
if you deny the former, you strip the abrahamic god of omnipotence, if you deny the latter, of omnibenevolence... in either case, you no longer believe in the christian god, but a god of your own making
and just to prove what a loving father is (or perhaps, to prove that its nothing more than a hebrew war god) the abrahamic god has no problem to order his followers to slaughter whole cities of unbelievers (people who had never heard of him, mind you) including WOMEN and CHILDREN and to take their lands as their own (along with any survivors as slaves) ...you don't believe me? go read the bible, its in there
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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