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angelito
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posted June 14, 2007 02:45 PM |
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I am too lazy to read the whole bible, so maybe someone who knows the bible pretty well could give me some answers:
- God made Adam and Eve, who and when were all the different animals made? (besides the snake, which seem to be present pretty early)
- Is "heaven" only for humans, or are animals (who are "living creatures" aswell) allowed to enter heaven as well?
- Many animals are not vegetarians, what do they eat in heaven? (I know this sounds funny, but just think of it and try to find a solution. Of course you could say: "There is nothing like eating or drinking in heaven", but this is too easy to be accepted as explanation...)
- Do suiciders come into heaven or down to hell?
- Is there some kind of "value ranking" for living creatures? I mean, if u kill any kind of human being, it is a sin. If u kill a frog (like kids do when they play), or a fly (like we all did already I assume), is that a sin as well? If so, do we have any chance to get into heaven after death if we've killed many animals in our lives (ants, flies, spiders etc...)
- Was Adam a dinosaur? As far as I have read, we have found tons of dinosaur skeletons, which are much older than any kind of "human" skeletons we have found so far. So it seems to be a fact, dinosaurs were present on earth way before any kind of human being. And the bible also says, God made Adam the same looking as himself. So god is a dinosaur?
- I've also read, the Koran (Islam) is based on the bible, but Prophet Mohammed changed many things he found to be non appropriate when he wrote the Koran. Isn't it written in the Koran, men who help "killing" non-believers (like all the suicide bombers) will come to paradise and will find 72 virgins to please them? Where the hell do all these virgins come from? And isn't monogamy they way to go (like it is written in Koran)? That doesn't fit...at least not for me...
- Is God caucasian, negrid, mongolid or hispanoid?
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted June 14, 2007 03:30 PM |
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Excuse any mistakes..
God made all the animals when he made the earth, before mankind. (although the bible contradicts itself over this saying in Genesis 1:24-27 that animals were before man, it hints in Genesis 2:18-19 that man was before animals). Generally animals before man though
I'm not sure if animals go to heaven, it's a debated topic. I think the answer is no because they aren't created in gods image, but then people want to see their pets again so they probably changed the story/are fighting as hard as they can to change the story. helps little kids become christians before they can formulate a proper opinion of their own
suicide, by the catholic law, is punishable by an eternity in hell. it's a sin, just watch Constantine 
Don't know about the animals. I think there must be, what about microbacteria But then again the commandment is THOU SHALT NOT KILL, it's not exactly vague, nor does it leave much room for exceptions
nope, adam was definately human. either a) carbon dating is WRONG, b) dinosaur skeletons were put there by evil scientists to make us turn to satan or c) god put the bones there to test the faithful. take your pick 
Don't know anything about the Koran.. picking and choosing what you want from the bible isn't anything strange though 
God is a white, straight, right wing conservative. God Bless America.
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Lith-Maethor
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posted June 14, 2007 08:57 PM |
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TitaniumAlloy pretty much covered all the questions except for the last...
roughly speaking, the Koran is a compilation of judeochristian beliefs, arabic folklore and customs, all wrapped up in order to unite the people it addressed under a common religion
which is pretty much what christianity is... take one pinch OT dogma, two spoonfulls eastern philosophies (where he first see the whole "love thy neighbour" attitude) add a bit of hellenestic philosophy... and voila
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TheDeath
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posted June 16, 2007 06:19 PM |
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Interesting book I found randomly
The Blind Atheist
Before you start to comment on it and ask me questions (which I am already tired), here are some notes:
1) It is a book about atheists, about their 'religion' in evolution without proofs (just that they think it's logical, God is logical for religious people as well). It isn't about a specific God.
2) I have no interest in replying questions to it. To be honest I didn't even read it all, but Chapter 2 was especially descriptive, be sure to read it
3) Before you ask questions be sure to read the Answers to Various Objections chapter as well, it's sort of like a FAQ.
4) There is no point in proving a deaf guy that sound is real.
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angelito
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posted June 16, 2007 08:34 PM |
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...God is logical for religious people as well)...
Then maybe your definition of "logical" is different from common knowledge.
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posted June 16, 2007 08:44 PM |
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...God is logical for religious people as well)...
Then maybe your definition of "logical" is different from common knowledge.
What makes the God atheists call "Evolution" more logical? Just because they think that way makes it more logical than the existence of God? 
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angelito
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posted June 16, 2007 10:21 PM |
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I've never said the "BigBang" theory is logical. But it seems much more logical than the God / Adam&Eve / Paradise story. At least we have a handfull of evidences for most of the theories refering to BigBang, but non for the other (religious) theory.
The question "What was before the BigBang?" is as impossible to respond as "What was before God?".
But we have evidences of different climate epochs, different evolution levels of species from the same family. We also have evidences of living creatures similar to the "homo sapiens" on many different locations.
I wonder why God and the whole bible takes place only in the region of Jerusalem, Babylon (Iraq) and all neighbors.
Why not in China? South America? Africa? Switzerland?
Why did Jesus appear exactly in the region where some kind of "religion" was already present? Why not anywhere else?
Why did God wait about 4 billion years before he sent his son down to earth? He could have done that after 1 billion years also.
So for me, there are too many facts which can be said against the existence of God, and none which make me think "Hmm...it may be true...there has to be someone/something who controls/knows/created everything".
I am still waiting....
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Lith-Maethor
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posted June 16, 2007 10:47 PM |
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ahem...
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1) It is a book about atheists, about their 'religion' in evolution without proofs (just that they think it's logical, God is logical for religious people as well). It isn't about a specific God.
and there is the number one reason for someone not to bother with that book... despite popular belief, a "theory" doesn't mean "something i just came up with that has no proof whatsoever" ...not in science anyway.. .there is proof about evolution, anything saying there is none should go back to school and/or join the rest of us in the 21st century
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Doomforge
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posted June 16, 2007 10:51 PM |
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Gosh, I'm fed up with the exams.. aww, I just need some refreshing TitaniumAlloy-style fun
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I've never said the "BigBang" theory is logical. But it seems much more logical than the God / Adam&Eve / Paradise story.
It's just a sad excuse for our lack of knowledge. The big bang theory is rather pointless; I agree it's less pointless then paradise story, though. But hey, it's meant to be a metaphor, isn't it?
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At least we have a handfull of evidences for most of the theories refering to BigBang, but non for the other (religious) theory.
We have nothing. There is no reasonable theory about life origin.
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But we have evidences of different climate epochs, different evolution levels of species from the same family. We also have evidences of living creatures similar to the "homo sapiens" on many different locations.
And it still proves nothing.
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I wonder why God and the whole bible takes place only in the region of Jerusalem, Babylon (Iraq) and all neighbors.
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Why not in China? South America? Africa? Switzerland?
Had it happen in china, you'd probably ask why it happened in China today. Does the place matter?
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Why did Jesus appear exactly in the region where some kind of "religion" was already present? Why not anywhere else?
Because he was promised to the Jews. I can hardly think about any Jews in another part of the world at that time.
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Why did God wait about 4 billion years before he sent his son down to earth? He could have done that after 1 billion years also.
Imagine you are God. Would you send a teacher to some dumb cavemen, or to people that are ready for the knowledge and have developed some kind of culture? It's like asking why parents don't send their 7 year old son to unversity. He has to learn a long way to get enlightened, you see
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So for me, there are too many facts which can be said against the existence of God, and none which make me think "Hmm...it may be true...there has to be someone/something who controls/knows/created everything".
You call the questions you've written down here facts? I sincerely hope you do not. It's just some "why here and not there" talk
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angelito
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posted June 17, 2007 12:56 AM |
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It's just a sad excuse for our lack of knowledge. The big bang theory is rather pointless; I agree it's less pointless then paradise story, though. But hey, it's meant to be a metaphor, isn't it?
This response exactly proofs my point of how "the believers" argue. Every time they can't explain something that is even written in their holy bible or which contradicts written passages, u hear something like "It is a metapher" or "Don't take it literally" or "No1 knows why God does this and that". That's about the same way parents respond to their kids if they ask too specific things they can't explain well or have no knowledge of.
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At least we have a handfull of evidences for most of the theories refering to BigBang, but non for the other (religious) theory.
We have nothing. There is no reasonable theory about life origin.
Then u maybe should read somewhere about BigBang theory again. You will see how many evidences the science already has about the BigBang. But if u don't count any physics or mathematics as base for evidences, then of course all this theory is not for you. But I guess u can't deny you will fall from the roof of a scyscraper if u
take a step too far to the edge...and smash down on the ground...without prooving it yourself. Coz u learned something like "gravity" in school. I just mention this because "gravity" is just 1 small piece of science mankind has learned during the last hundreds of years, and even fanatics can't deny those "laws". And there are many more of those laws. And all these laws can be used to find conclusions. With the help of those laws, you can measure distances you even can't imagine (light years).
So I guess we have a lot...and not "nothing"....but we have nothing refering to Adam&Eve theory, that's still a fact.
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But we have evidences of different climate epochs, different evolution levels of species from the same family. We also have evidences of living creatures similar to the "homo sapiens" on many different locations.
And it still proves nothing.
Sure it does. It proofs time differences, evolutions, changings etc. Why should all the climate (Ice age) change, when in the bible it says something like "And god made the world, and found it was good!" Where is the reason for bringing up Ice age, meteors etc..? God knows all and God is everywhere. Why sending meteors from space onto earth?
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I wonder why God and the whole bible takes place only in the region of Jerusalem, Babylon (Iraq) and all neighbors.
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Why not in China? South America? Africa? Switzerland?
Had it happen in china, you'd probably ask why it happened in China today. Does the place matter?
You didn't get the point. I was refering to the old and new part of the testament. Some guys collected soem stories and put them together into a book and named it "old testament". And, what a great coincidence, Jesus and the other part of the testament ALSO took place in the same region. Jesus could have appeared on a completely different place on earth, so both parts of the bible wouldn't fit together at all. But that would be too difficult to put into 1 story....
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Why did Jesus appear exactly in the region where some kind of "religion" was already present? Why not anywhere else?
Because he was promised to the Jews. I can hardly think about any Jews in another part of the world at that time.
Next contradiction. God made mankind (Adam & Eve). He didn't made an Jews, orthodox or protestants. So how can he "value" all the people living on earth that time? Religion is only for 1 specific folk? That doesn't sound very "god like". Why did he "create" other people than jews then?
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Why did God wait about 4 billion years before he sent his son down to earth? He could have done that after 1 billion years also.
Imagine you are God. Would you send a teacher to some dumb cavemen, or to people that are ready for the knowledge and have developed some kind of culture? It's like asking why parents don't send their 7 year old son to unversity. He has to learn a long way to get enlightened, you see
Not sure how your knowledge about ancient culture is, but there was a lot of culture (greeks!!) before the time Jesus was born. And on thew other hand, if God found cavemen are "too dumb" to get knowledge of him, why did he create them then? I can't believe God thinks that way.....
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So for me, there are too many facts which can be said against the existence of God, and none which make me think "Hmm...it may be true...there has to be someone/something who controls/knows/created everything".
You call the questions you've written down here facts? I sincerely hope you do not. It's just some "why here and not there" talk
As written above, you didn't get too deep into my questions, that's why u probably gave these answers. A question is never a fact btw....I asked questions and was looking forward to facts in your answers....but I couldn't see 1 single fact.....maybe you try again...
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted June 17, 2007 09:07 AM |
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The Death, what has evolution got to do with athiesm?
Nothing.
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Doomforge
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posted June 17, 2007 01:03 PM |
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This response exactly proofs my point of how "the believers" argue. Every time they can't explain something that is even written in their holy bible or which contradicts written passages, u hear something like "It is a metapher" or "Don't take it literally" or "No1 knows why God does this and that".
It's like a poem. You can't take it literally, since the sense is deeper inside. It has nothing to do with Bible, most of the books (holy or not) have hidden meanings. Do you know Plato's Cave theory? Check it, it can respond to your question better than i can do.
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That's about the same way parents respond to their kids if they ask too specific things they can't explain well or have no knowledge of.
And did you bother to read the Bible before criticising it? From cover to cover? You can't say it's really stupid before doing so, you know.
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Then u maybe should read somewhere about BigBang theory again. You will see how many evidences the science already has about the BigBang.
I meant, Big Bang occured, of course! I do not say it never happened and the earth was created within 7 days. Come on, I believe in God, but I'm not some kind of religious fanatic or so. I try to combine science with religion, and I'm quite sucessful in fact. Many of the greatest scientists did so too.. Einstein, for instance. Do you think you're smarter than him?
Back to Big Bang, all I say is that occured, but had nothing in common with the life origin. Even by common logic: everything appearing out of nothing seems dumber than God creating the world in seven days.
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Sure it does. It proofs time differences, evolutions, changings etc. Why should all the climate (Ice age) change, when in the bible it says something like "And god made the world, and found it was good!" Where is the reason for bringing up Ice age, meteors etc..? God knows all and God is everywhere. Why sending meteors from space onto earth?
Why not? The world was meant to evolve. It's never said that God meant to baby-sit the world all the time.
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You didn't get the point. I was refering to the old and new part of the testament. Some guys collected soem stories and put them together into a book and named it "old testament".
What amazing people! In times where food and survival was the biggest concern, some of them kept collecting stories and writing a Bible! Amazing >_>
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And, what a great coincidence, Jesus and the other part of the testament ALSO took place in the same region. Jesus could have appeared on a completely different place on earth, so both parts of the bible wouldn't fit together at all. But that would be too difficult to put into 1 story....
Again, if Jesus was promised to Jews, why the heck he should appear elsewhere?
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Next contradiction. God made mankind (Adam & Eve). He didn't made an Jews, orthodox or protestants.
Of course.
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So how can he "value" all the people living on earth that time?
And why do you think he does? If you ever read the Bible, you wouldn't ask right now.
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Religion is only for 1 specific folk? That doesn't sound very "god like". Why did he "create" other people than jews then?
Then why there is a hierarchy, why the testament doesn't criticise ppl having servants, why there are wealthy and poor on the world? Hierarchy is something imporant everywhere, in the nature, in societies. There are the "better" and the "worse", it keeps the world together. If you think it's dumb, no prob; You can try to create a world better than God did (or Big bang, no difference), where everybody is equal. Hint: commies tried that once and failed miserably.
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Why did God wait about 4 billion years before he sent his son down to earth? He could have done that after 1 billion years also.
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And on thew other hand, if God found cavemen are "too dumb" to get knowledge of him, why did he create them then? I can't believe God thinks that way.....
Freedom of will. If we assume God gave us free will, then it's logical he doesn't interfere. PPl do what they want, and evolve like everything else. What's wrong about that? You'd like to be some happy paradise-like golem, smiling all the time and didn't even knowing what's happening? Uh-huh.
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So for me, there are too many facts which can be said against the existence of God, and none which make me think "Hmm...it may be true...there has to be someone/something who controls/knows/created everything".
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I asked questions and was looking forward to facts in your answers....but I couldn't see 1 single fact.....maybe you try again...
Here you go. Scientific proof.
If you read about the theories of life origin I posted earlier (the "warm pizza" and such), you know that scientists are quite certain that life had to begin with free aminoacids that would work as a pre-RNA particle. There is no other way, because the only way the scientists believe in is the evolution, and the evolution needs self-retorting mechanism.
By recreating the exact environment of the young world, they managed to force the particles to work that way. And guess what. Whatever they did, the aminoacids kept having their carbon optical isomers at 50:50 rate. "Our" aminoacids have quite different construction. The 50:50 rate aminoacids work completely different than ours, and they cannot form any "life". It's like carbon oxide and Carbon dioxide: they differ a little at first glance, but they are in fact totally different. Same for the aminoacids. No catalyst could force the reaction to give the desired cratio of R- and L- optical isomers.
Therafore, the reaction could not happen spontaneously. Do I need to continue..?
Maybe I should, since it's probably not enough to even convince you a bit. Well, as you can see, there is no way to get such carbon optical isomers ratio with nonorganic reaction. You need an organic process, which of course requires life forms. EVEN if the life forms could somehow appear out of nowhere, they must have had developed the mechanism to distinguish the R- and L- isomers, and such mechanism is a very complex thing that primitive pre-bacteria forms could not possess.
I hope you get the big picture now. I can understand that most of the poeple are not aware of it; it's a bit more advanced biology; they use to believe that the first forms of life could come out of "nowhere" and begin evolving. It's not that way. Nothing can come out of nowhere. Organic life must've started from non-organic reactions, and such reactions can't give the proper aminoacids. Draw your conclusions. I believe God initiated the whole process, and that makes actually sense.
Oh by the way, Bible and Science agree at times. The clay is mentioned to be the material humanity is made of. Strangely enough, the same clay was the catalyst for the first polymerization processes. Not a coincidence, IMO Well, of course I don't want to say you are wrong: I just can actually combine scientific and religious approach. It's ok if you can't manage to do the same thing.
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Lith-Maethor
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posted June 17, 2007 01:46 PM |
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just a note...
Einstein didn't believe in the judeochristian god ...for him "God" was something quite different
and a second note... many of your arguments are in the list of "arguments not to use against atheists because they don't hold" for theists and apologists
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted June 17, 2007 02:06 PM |
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That's about the same way parents respond to their kids if they ask too specific things they can't explain well or have no knowledge of.
And did you bother to read the Bible before criticising it? From cover to cover? You can't say it's really stupid before doing so, you know.
You can't have read the bible and NOT criticize it..
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I try to combine science with religion, and I'm quite sucessful in fact.
So you make up your own religion?
Easy way to get to heaven.
"Thou shalt be me, or the people I allow, and thou shalt go to heaven."
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Back to Big Bang, all I say is that occured, but had nothing in common with the life origin. Even by common logic: everything appearing out of nothing seems dumber than God creating the world in seven days.
It SEEMS dumber. But it's not.
Because if you were not religious, and could look from a clean perspective, you would say, where did GOD come from? Out of nothing?
Of course, if you're religious, those kind of questions are just the stupidest thing you can ask, of course god did not come from nothing! .........
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Why not? The world was meant to evolve. It's never said that God meant to baby-sit the world all the time.
What else has he got to do?
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What amazing people! In times where food and survival was the biggest concern, some of them kept collecting stories and writing a Bible! Amazing >_>
LOL just lol
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Again, if Jesus was promised to Jews, why the heck he should appear elsewhere?
Yeah, but he could have been promised to anyone... ?
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Then why there is a hierarchy, why the testament doesn't criticise ppl having servants, why there are wealthy and poor on the world? Hierarchy is something imporant everywhere, in the nature, in societies. There are the "better" and the "worse", it keeps the world together. If you think it's dumb, no prob; You can try to create a world better than God did (or Big bang, no difference), where everybody is equal. Hint: commies tried that once and failed miserably.
There is a difference between having freedom and communism.
What the bible does is promote the wholesale beating of slaves
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Freedom of will. If we assume God gave us free will, then it's logical he doesn't interfere. PPl do what they want, and evolve like everything else. What's wrong about that? You'd like to be some happy paradise-like golem, smiling all the time and didn't even knowing what's happening? Uh-huh.
God + free will = contradiction
Because god is all powerful AND all knowing.
Consider this
If god is all powerful, then he created us exactly as he wanted us. He couldn't have made a mistake, and I can't imagine him making us in a way he didn't want, because not only would that just serve to annoy hiimself , but that would mean that he wanted it that way anyway. So god created us EXACTLY HOW HE WANTED US.
And if at the same time,
God is all knowing, then upon creating us, he knew exactly what we were going to do in every aspect of our lives, correct.
That means god created us exactly to do everything we do. If someone goes out and rapes and pillages, then they are doing as god created them to do. They are, in essence, doing gods will.
God created us exactly to do exactly what we will do. Is that free will?
Otherwise, god is not all powerful, or not all knowing.
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Here you go. Scientific proof.
Wrong.
Scientific attempt at contradiction.
Just because we haven't been able to recreate in minutes what happened over billions of years doesn't mean it didn't happen (because well, we are here..?)
We don't understand how we came about yet. No one denies that.
That does NOT mean that we should automatically prefer the existance of god.
It seems that if there is a missing part or a flaw to theory A that we are yet to find out, then we should automatically prefer theory B, without questioning whether or not theory B is any better at explaining the phenomenon than theory A.
In other words, something that we are YET TO FIND OUT about the origins of life is not proof of god.
Or we could all give up and say "there is no proof of the origin of life because the way in which life first evolved exists outside our material universe and cannot be proved by our meager minds" and other self demoralization.
it's the same thing. If you ask "how come life came about, by evolution?" and we say "that question is ****ing stupid because it exists outside of time. end of story. do not ask such questions."
it's the same.
"if god made us, who made god?" "SHUT UP DUMB***" is the usual response. It IS a reasonable question.
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Oh by the way, Bible and Science agree at times. The clay is mentioned to be the material humanity is made of. Strangely enough, the same clay was the catalyst for the first polymerization processes. Not a coincidence, IMO Well, of course I don't want to say you are wrong: I just can actually combine scientific and religious approach. It's ok if you can't manage to do the same thing.
It mostly says adam was made out of dust, actually.
Even if it does sometimes say clay, this shows that it's just a random substance without any significance..
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Doomforge
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posted June 17, 2007 03:14 PM |
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You can't have read the bible and NOT criticize it..
I don't have any problems with it.
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So you make up your own religion?
I am not a God.
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Because if you were not religious, and could look from a clean perspective, you would say, where did GOD come from? Out of nothing?
So you can't believe that God can come out of nothing (or existed for eternity), but it's so easy for you to accept that the universe came out of nothing with a BANG. Isn't that weird? 
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Of course, if you're religious, those kind of questions are just the stupidest thing you can ask, of course god did not come from nothing! .........
"religious" isn't the proper word, I think.. Somehow it seems a bit fanatical to me
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What else has he got to do?
Play poker? Who knows what God wants to do. 
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Yeah, but he could have been promised to anyone... ?
And he was - technically - beneficial for all people. The Jews were those which has expected him , though
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There is a difference between having freedom and communism.
Well, communism just turned out to be like that. In theory, it should be the ultimate all-equal system.
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What the bible does is promote the wholesale beating of slaves
I do not know about other religions, but about christianity: well, the old testament was written by people, not by God. Therafore, as a Christian, i can say it's better to stick with Jesus' words. Easier to understand and not so winded.
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Consider this
If god is all powerful, then he created us exactly as he wanted us. He couldn't have made a mistake, and I can't imagine him making us in a way he didn't want, because not only would that just serve to annoy hiimself , but that would mean that he wanted it that way anyway. So god created us EXACTLY HOW HE WANTED US.
Perhaps he has to obey the rules he has created himself Or it is like deists say it is. Who knows, I'm not a God to know.
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And if at the same time,
God is all knowing, then upon creating us, he knew exactly what we were going to do in every aspect of our lives, correct.
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Otherwise, god is not all powerful, or not all knowing.
Not really. God=/=time. There is no such thing as past and future to God, therafore, he can't "know" what we will do in it. Besides, the "all-knowing" part doesn't actually deny free will; IMO, "all-knowing" refers to the common knowledge, not to the ability to foresee one's actions or random factors. If you put it that way, it's logical. God was never called grand clairvoyant or so.
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Just because we haven't been able to recreate in minutes what happened over billions of years doesn't mean it didn't happen (because well, we are here..?)
If there is a process that can happen, it doesn't matter if two hours or 3985023804 hours has passed; There will always be a sign of it; doesn't matter if it's a simple temperature change, or something more complex. IF it is stated that such process doesn't occur, then it doesn't. Don't try to prove something that cannot be proved. It's pretty much like the thing you're laughing at: proofs of God existence.
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We don't understand how we came about yet. No one denies that.
Oh, we do, good sir. The problem is that such process can not happen. There is no magic or an unknown particle behind it. Chemistry is a scientifical branch that is extremely strict; the balance of energy must be retained in order to call the process completed (a simple physic rule). If there's a balance of energy, no other particles participate in the process, therafore, there's nothing out there except the things the scientist had already checked. And I'm pretty sure that it has been checked in the first place.
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That does NOT mean that we should automatically prefer the existance of god.
Neither it negates it.
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It seems that if there is a missing part or a flaw to theory A that we are yet to find out, then we should automatically prefer theory B, without questioning whether or not theory B is any better at explaining the phenomenon than theory A.
We have already found out that this theory is the only one that really fits (like assembling the clock, well, you have to put the parts together, there is no other way to assemble it..). And we have already found that there is no explanation for the isomer issue. That's actually a fact, no matter how conceited I may seem by saying that. It doesn't mean that God exists or that there's no better, and yet unknown theory, ofc. It's just that if we accept the most logical (atm) theory, God fills the only hole it has.. naturally. That's all.
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Or we could all give up and say "there is no proof of the origin of life because the way in which life first evolved exists outside our material universe and cannot be proved by our meager minds" and other self demoralization.
We technically could, because there is little we can do to find the missing part of the puzzle Although humanity will most likely search for it until they find it, so..
Believing or not, I'm still curious And so are the other guys.
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"if god made us, who made god?" "SHUT UP DUMB***" is the usual response. It IS a reasonable question.
Of course it is. We can accept the theory that God is eternal; something hard to comprehend, yet ultimately possible. Well, if not, the question remains open, of course
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Even if it does sometimes say clay, this shows that it's just a random substance without any significance..
It does say clay, and you can call that just a coincidence; as a believer, I see a deeper thing in it
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JoonasTo
Responsible
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted June 17, 2007 03:32 PM |
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Weren't some researchers able to create a virus from elements a little while ago?
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Doomforge
Admirable
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Retired Hero
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posted June 17, 2007 03:43 PM |
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Viruses ain't alive: they have no metabolism. They can't "evolve" to live beings exactly because of the reasons I've described a few posts above.
Btw, I am truly amazed by the lack of the logic behing the questions, guys. I understand there are many that can't be answered, but come on.. can't you focus on the more important ones, and not trivial like:
"if God is all-knowing, why does he.. blah blah blah"
If you can know the consequence of every possible event, you are all-knowing. Tell me how does it affect our free will. God knows what will the result of any of our actions be. It's our choice to decide, though.
If he is all-powerful, why.. blah blah blah
All-powerful can mean that he's able to chose any of possible variants . He knows them all due to being all-knowing like described above. A simple logic, and all your "why he can't" instantly goes down >_>
Can God walk left when walking right, create a rock so heavy that he can't lift it and so on
You can't afford to understand the quantificators, can you. Maths, logic, calculus of probability are difficult things, I know, and if you don't get what's wrong with the sentences above, don't even use them.
What fails here, God's all-powerfulness or the logic of the one asking such question?
Think again >_>
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
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Professional
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posted June 17, 2007 04:24 PM |
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Btw, I am truly amazed by the lack of the logic behing the questions, guys. I understand there are many that can't be answered, but come on.. can't you focus on the more important ones, and not trivial like:
"if God is all-knowing, why does he.. blah blah blah"
First, I'd like you to quote where I asked THAT trivial question..
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If you can know the consequence of every possible event, you are all-knowing. Tell me how does it affect our free will. God knows what will the result of any of our actions be. It's our choice to decide, though.
Yes but he made us to make those choices. It's like making and winding up the clockwork and saying it's the car's choice to drive forward.
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If he is all-powerful, why.. blah blah blah
All-powerful can mean that he's able to chose any of possible variants . He knows them all due to being all-knowing like described above. A simple logic, and all your "why he can't" instantly goes down >_>
No. You see, if he is all knowing then he would know exactly the outcomes of those variants, as you said. And he would have fine tuned us so that we will choose one of them (we can't choose two, right). And since god created us perfectly, then he in essence CHOSE what choice we will make. that means it's not our choice at all, it's his.
if it's our choice, then he is not all powerful and all knowing.
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Can God walk left when walking right, create a rock so heavy that he can't lift it and so on
You can't afford to understand the quantificators, can you. Maths, logic, calculus of probability are difficult things, I know, and if you don't get what's wrong with the sentences above, don't even use them.
What fails here, God's all-powerfulness or the logic of the one asking such question?
Think again >_>
Could god create a burrito so hot, that not even he could eat it?
edit: didn't see your first post
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You can't have read the bible and NOT criticize it..
I don't have any problems with it.
Then you are morally bankrupt if you have no problems with the old testament.
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I am not a God.
Gods don't make religion. People do.
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So you can't believe that God can come out of nothing (or existed for eternity), but it's so easy for you to accept that the universe came out of nothing with a BANG. Isn't that weird?
Who said I did believe in that?
Besides, I'd believe astronomical evidence over what some guy knocking at my door tells me anyway
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Play poker? Who knows what God wants to do.
Torture people like me for not believing
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And he was - technically - beneficial for all people. The Jews were those which has expected him , though
Haven't you learned that god doesn't give what people expect?
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There is a difference between having freedom and communism.
Well, communism just turned out to be like that. In theory, it should be the ultimate all-equal system.
Yes but if you're talking "In theory", then it also works.
But neither of those cases are true
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I do not know about other religions, but about christianity: well, the old testament was written by people, not by God. Therafore, as a Christian, i can say it's better to stick with Jesus' words. Easier to understand and not so winded.
So let's just throw away the whole old testament?
The old testament is gods words.
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Consider this
If god is all powerful, then he created us exactly as he wanted us. He couldn't have made a mistake, and I can't imagine him making us in a way he didn't want, because not only would that just serve to annoy hiimself , but that would mean that he wanted it that way anyway. So god created us EXACTLY HOW HE WANTED US.
Perhaps he has to obey the rules he has created himself Or it is like deists say it is. Who knows, I'm not a God to know.
Why create those rules?
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And if at the same time,
God is all knowing, then upon creating us, he knew exactly what we were going to do in every aspect of our lives, correct.
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Otherwise, god is not all powerful, or not all knowing.
Not really. God=/=time. There is no such thing as past and future to God, therafore, he can't "know" what we will do in it. Besides, the "all-knowing" part doesn't actually deny free will; IMO, "all-knowing" refers to the common knowledge, not to the ability to foresee one's actions or random factors. If you put it that way, it's logical. God was never called grand clairvoyant or so.
If god exists outside of time then god cannot do anything, so that's kinda bankrupt right there.
But what you're saying is god is not all knowing. And I'm fine with that.
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If there is a process that can happen, it doesn't matter if two hours or 3985023804 hours has passed; There will always be a sign of it; doesn't matter if it's a simple temperature change, or something more complex. IF it is stated that such process doesn't occur, then it doesn't. Don't try to prove something that cannot be proved. It's pretty much like the thing you're laughing at: proofs of God existence.
Things take time. Even god took 6 days. (despite his all powerful-ness)
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Oh, we do, good sir. The problem is that such process can not happen.
Well clearly it did... I'm here, QED
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There is no magic or an unknown particle behind it. Chemistry is a scientifical branch that is extremely strict; the balance of energy must be retained in order to call the process completed (a simple physic rule). If there's a balance of energy, no other particles participate in the process, therafore, there's nothing out there except the things the scientist had already checked. And I'm pretty sure that it has been checked in the first place.
Sure there has to be a balance of energy, but that energy can come from anywhere at anytime, like photosynthesis. It could have come from any corner of the universe. You assume that we have examined every corner of the universe. When we have, and there is still no sign of the source of life, perhaps we can believe in a big man in the sky?
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That does NOT mean that we should automatically prefer the existance of god.
Neither it negates it.
You sound like a man of science, Doom. Curious why you're so quick to reject the usefulness of investigation.
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We have already found out that this theory is the only one that really fits (like assembling the clock, well, you have to put the parts together, there is no other way to assemble it..).
Don't start with the clock.
A clockmaker has to be much more complex than the clock. And considering the clocks that we have walking the earth today, a pretty **** clock maker as well.
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And we have already found that there is no explanation for the isomer issue. That's actually a fact, no matter how conceited I may seem by saying that.
no explanation YET. YET. there is such thing as further research, leading to better technology, leading to further research. why give up?
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It doesn't mean that God exists or that there's no better, and yet unknown theory, ofc. It's just that if we accept the most logical (atm) theory, God fills the only hole it has.. naturally. That's all.
Of course god fills the holes. It's an idea made up specifically to do that, to fill the void, to avoid finding real answers for those difficult questions. it's also designed so that you can't disprove it, because it always changes into something more, like "can't see him" or the loverly "god doesnt work like that" and of course a personal favourite "how are we meant to know how god works?" maybe because we invented him..
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We technically could, because there is little we can do to find the missing part of the puzzle Although humanity will most likely search for it until they find it, so..
Believing or not, I'm still curious And so are the other guys.
We have already done so. We call it 'god' now.
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"if god made us, who made god?" "SHUT UP DUMB***" is the usual response. It IS a reasonable question.
Of course it is. We can accept the theory that God is eternal; something hard to comprehend, yet ultimately possible. Well, if not, the question remains open, of course
Well it's not hard to comprehend, now is it. Don't flatter yourselves. Christianity is the most popular religion in the world, and that's a key idea of Christianity. That makes it easy to accept.
What is this eternal situation in which god exists? Something someone made up sometime. Thats all.
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Even if it does sometimes say clay, this shows that it's just a random substance without any significance..
It does say clay, and you can call that just a coincidence; as a believer, I see a deeper thing in it
sigh
Genesis 2:7 : Then the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
It says dust. It might say clay in some bibles, but what I'm saying is, the fact that the word changes from dust to clay, shows that its just a randomly assigned earthly word. If god did create us from clay, then it would say clay. always. then your statement would hold.
and why make us from clay? why not just say "let there be man"?
'there would have been man, definitely.
made him out of some dust, just cause he can.
then adam said, "gonna make eve now, out of some dust?"
"no, out of one of your ribs"
"you can't do th- OW!"'
-ricky gervais
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Doomforge
Admirable
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Retired Hero
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posted June 17, 2007 04:45 PM |
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Could god create a burrito so hot, that not even he could eat it?
That makes me MAD!
Anyways, you're a smart dude TA, so I really think you can draw some more serious issues than wordplays
Till then, I think I'm done discussing in this thread *again*
cya till next time!
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted June 17, 2007 07:35 PM |
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My old biology teacher used to say before starting evolution theories that even that evolution theories have been proven there is no proof that god wasn't manipulating them and that no one has proved that god couldn't be out there somewhere.
As for the bible...
...it has wayyyyyy too many issues that don't match.
Like in the beginning it talks about gods and later there is only one god. Those might be only translation issues but I don't know since I don't read hebrew or greek so I haven't read the originals.Yeah I've read it. I was 11 when I read it through and that dropped the last pieces of faith.
So I'm atheist.
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